another question

[heal103]

I'm curious about this. Before Jesus was baptized, John the Baptist was baptizing people. So before Jesus, what were those people being baptized into??

[DaRev]

John's baptism was not the same as Christian baptism. His was a baptism of repentance, basically a sign of repentance. Christian baptism was not instituted until after the Resurrection of Christ.

[RevCowboy]

I'm curious about this. Before Jesus was baptized, John the Baptist was baptizing people. So before Jesus, what were those people being baptized into??

DaRev is absolutely correct.

Baptism is simply the Greek word for bath, or to dunk. The Jewish Mikvah practice of ritually washing oneself in order to be purified is probably the basis for John's Baptism. Like they would have had to do in order to enter the temple in Jerusalem, the people coming to be baptized by John probably would have considered John's baptism to be ritual of purification. It wouldn't have been the same as we understand Baptism today.

[heal103]

DaRev is absolutely correct.

Baptism is simply the Greek word for bath, or to dunk. The Jewish Mikvah practice of ritually washing oneself in order to be purified is probably the basis for John's Baptism. Like they would have had to do in order to enter the temple in Jerusalem, the people coming to be baptized by John probably would have considered John's baptism to be ritual of purification. It wouldn't have been the same as we understand Baptism today.
I just wish I could understand this better. If Baptism means "to dunk" I'm still feeling confused about this. This is exactly what the Baptist say..that "Baptize" was a term often used by those dying cloth. If a cloth was white and they wanted it red, they would baptize it in red dye and when it came out it was no longer white but that dye was not part of it....I'm so confused. I really want to understand. I want it to make more sense. It does seem on the surface that baptism follows repentence. When it says "repent and be baptized" how does that translate in Greek?

[DaRev]

I just wish I could understand this better. If Baptism means "to dunk" I'm still feeling confused about this. This is exactly what the Baptist say..that "Baptize" was a term often used by those dying cloth. If a cloth was white and they wanted it red, they would baptize it in red dye and when it came out it was no longer white but that dye was not part of it....I'm so confused. I really want to understand. I want it to make more sense. It does seem on the surface that baptism follows repentence. When it says "repent and be baptized" how does that translate in Greek?

The Greek word "baptizo" means to wash. Baptism is a "regenerative washing" with water combined with the word of God. Christian baptism is not dependant on a mode, whether immersed or poured over, it is the application of water with the word of God.

As for the word order, you are getting caught up with one verse. You need to take the Scriptural teaching of Baptism as a whole. Both repentance and baptism are works of God. The Baptists teach that both are works of Man, which would make Man at least partially responsible for his salvation.

[Aibrean]

I just wish I could understand this better. If Baptism means "to dunk" I'm still feeling confused about this. This is exactly what the Baptist say..that "Baptize" was a term often used by those dying cloth. If a cloth was white and they wanted it red, they would baptize it in red dye and when it came out it was no longer white but that dye was not part of it....I'm so confused. I really want to understand. I want it to make more sense. It does seem on the surface that baptism follows repentence. When it says "repent and be baptized" how does that translate in Greek?

Well I akin that to a history channel show I was watching...it was woad dying. The woad is a plant that they use for those brilliant blues we see in English tapestries that still hold their color. When dying, there is a vat which is tested for alkalinity. The processed woad goes in....and the color of the water doesn't change - it's not blue. The fabric goes in....it's still the same color. When you take the woad out of the water - the second it is exposed to oxygen, it turns blue and that blue never fades - even after 1000 years. Some parts don't turn right away because they are gathered up and are underneath bits of oxygenated fabric so you have to pull and stretch it out until everything is blue.

Kinda reminds me of that :)

[RevCowboy]

I just wish I could understand this better. If Baptism means "to dunk" I'm still feeling confused about this. This is exactly what the Baptist say..that "Baptize" was a term often used by those dying cloth. If a cloth was white and they wanted it red, they would baptize it in red dye and when it came out it was no longer white but that dye was not part of it....I'm so confused. I really want to understand. I want it to make more sense. It does seem on the surface that baptism follows repentence. When it says "repent and be baptized" how does that translate in Greek?

Yes, cloth was baptized in dye in order to change its colour. For Christians you have to ask what are we doing when are are baptizing? A big part of it is we are being washed of our sins through water and the Word of God.

One of the earliest non-canonical Christian works was the Didache. Basically it was kind of the first manual on how to worship. Its dated sometime between 50-120 AD and outlines what Christians were actually doing. Here is what it says about Baptism:

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit.

Just a note about living water: the writer means moving water, like a river. Essentially, the kind of water is not important, but being baptized in a cold river shows in a very real way the dying and rising of baptism. When you put the person under they are dying to sin, and when they come out of the cold water probably they will be gasping for air, a very real image of coming back to life. Remember that Ancient Near Eastern people were a very visual people who didn't usually were illiterate. Rites with lots of visuals helped people to understand because they couldn't read or didn't have access to the scriptures.

Now as far as the Greek of "repent and be baptzied" That is one verse among many about baptism. In Greek, word order doesn't work like does in English. The fact that repent comes before Baptize doesn't signify a temporal happening or an order of importance. Often the the first thing in a sentence is the most important. In Act 2:38, the first thing that it is the sentence is Peter. The important thing here is that Peter, the "Rock on which I which Christ will build his church" is telling people to get baptized.

A note about repentance the word in Greek is, "metanoia" or "to change your mind". Literally it is , meta=with and noos=mind, which meant conventionally in Greek to change your mind. Part of the promises made in Baptism are to confess believe in the Trinity, made by parents, sponsors and/or the person being baptized, but another part of this is that in scripture metanoia is often a changing of our minds brought about the Holy Spirit, not necessarily something that we do. Just as God washes us of our sins in Baptism, we are also changed in mind by the Holy Spirit who gives us faith.

I hope that helps!

[BabyLutheran]

To bring food into it: think of the following phrase, it doesn't imply any order to the actions:

Go to the Lutheran picnic and eat pretzels and drink beer.

It's a command, but it doesn't mean you have to eat the pretzels first, then drink the beer.