roles of laity during liturgy

[BabyLutheran]

Are there any special requirements to be a lay reader or a communion server during liturgy?

Is the reader position one that is normally hard to fill? I am thinking it might be a good way for me to serve if so.

[LilLamb219]

It depends on which synod really...

[RevCowboy]

Are there any special requirements to be a lay reader or a communion server during liturgy?

Is the reader position one that is normally hard to fill? I am thinking it might be a good way for me to serve if so.

For the ELCA, there shouldn't be any specific requirements other than being literate and alive.

Talk to the pastor and I am sure that you can get your name on some list. Be careful though, if you show interest in volunteering it won't be long before you are on every committee and you are voted in as Church Council President. ;):thumbsup:

[BabyLutheran]

Oh no, just another MEETING to attend...lol

[DaRev]

Normally, lay readers would read the Old Testament and Epistle readings during the service. The pastor should be the one to proclaim the Gospel as that is part of his call.

Lay communion assistants are men (usually elders or deacons) who assist with the distribution of the Blood of Christ. The pastor should be the one who distributes the Host because that is an act of admittance to the Table and that is the pastor's call.

[BabyLutheran]

I know that the first paragraph is how the church we visited did things on the Scripture readings.

I am not sure whether the pastor distributed the Host, though, and there were women helping serve the Blood. I do know that the pastor was sick, so he was serving the intinction wine, they made a little joke about it.

I like the church's method, you can either dip the Host into the wine in the first vessel, or just put the Host in your mouth and wait for the common cup.

I was scared of messing up the two times I have been so far, and so I took the easy way out and dipped. But I much would rather use the common cup.

[DaRev]

I know that the first paragraph is how the church we visited did things on the Scripture readings.

I am not sure whether the pastor distributed the Host, though, and there were women helping serve the Blood. I do know that the pastor was sick, so he was serving the intinction wine, they made a little joke about it.

I like the church's method, you can either dip the Host into the wine in the first vessel, or just put the Host in your mouth and wait for the common cup.

I was scared of messing up the two times I have been so far, and so I took the easy way out and dipped. But I much would rather use the common cup.

Was it an ELCA church?

[BabyLutheran]

Was it an ELCA church?
Yes, St Michael in Virginia Beach.

And just so you know I am on my toes, I wouldn't have been allowed to take communion at a LCMS or WELS congregation, correct?

[DaRev]

Yes, St Michael in Virginia Beach.

And just so you know I am on my toes, I wouldn't have been allowed to take communion at a LCMS or WELS congregation, correct?

In a WELS church, no.
In an LCMS church it would depend on the congregation, on the pastor's discussion with you, and your intent to join. The LCMS does hold the requirements for reception of the Sacrament seriously while the ELCA generally is too open.

[RevCowboy]

In a WELS church, no.
In an LCMS church it would depend on the congregation, on the pastor's discussion with you, and your intent to join. The LCMS does hold the requirements for reception of the Sacrament seriously while the ELCA generally is too open.

From my experience (I have only been to one actual ELCA church, but dozens of ELCIC) congregations and pastors usually have a bulletin note and an announcement regarding communion practices in the congregation, which is that all baptized Christians are invited to partake at the table of the Lord. To me that is taking it seriously, when put in the context of overall policy in both the ELCA and ELCIC. Whether it is too open is matter of Eucharistic theology for which their are good arguments on both sides of the issue, and of which I don't want to debate in this thread. But please don't accuse all of us of not taking the Sacraments seriously. I certainly would never accuse the LCMS or LCC of not taking the Lord's Supper very seriously. In fact I admire the passion, care and commitment that I have experienced in regard to this issue.

Although I was playing Halo3 online last night with a couple of LCC pastors (one of whom is a good friend) and some of their youth. In one game where it was the two LCC pastors and I on one team and the three youth on the other, my friend reminded the youth before the game started that he determined whether or not they communed and thus they should be careful about beating us.:) Us three clergy types laughed quite a bit, and then were promptly whooped by the three youth.

[BabyLutheran]

To interject some humor here, I dipped the Host too far into the cup and ended up getting my fingers in the Blood. I felt really embarrassed.

On second thought, maybe the common cup would have been easier! lol

[DaSeminarian]

Are there any special requirements to be a lay reader or a communion server during liturgy?

Is the reader position one that is normally hard to fill? I am thinking it might be a good way for me to serve if so.


It really depends on the church. As a future Pastor, I will be requiring anyone who does lay reading to come to a class to learn to read publicly. It's not as easy as you think. For instance we are taught at Sem that when we are doing a reading we are not to look up from the text during the reading or else we might lose our place. There is nothing more frustrating than a reader who ends up reading a line a second time because he looked up from the text.

[DaSeminarian]

Normally, lay readers would read the Old Testament and Epistle readings during the service. The pastor should be the one to proclaim the Gospel as that is part of his call.

Lay communion assistants are men (usually elders or deacons) who assist with the distribution of the Blood of Christ. The pastor should be the one who distributes the Host because that is an act of admittance to the Table and that is the pastor's call.

Hey Rev,

Were they teaching Close or Closed communion at the sem in St. Louis?

[DaRev]

Hey Rev,

Were they teaching Close or Closed communion at the sem in St. Louis?

Well, both terms are interchangeable. They teach the Biblical mandate of Close communion.

[DaSeminarian]

Well, both terms are interchangeable. They teach the Biblical mandate of Close communion.

One of my profs today said that we need to go back to putting the "d" on it permanently because too man shenanigans have taken place with it being just close.

[BabyLutheran]

We were pretty "close" at the ELCA communion too, I touched the guy's elbow who was kneeled next to me!:P

[DaSeminarian]

We were pretty "close" at the ELCA communion too, I touched the guy's elbow who was kneeled next to me!:P


Was it too CLOSE for comfort?

:D

[DaRev]

One of my profs today said that we need to go back to putting the "d" on it permanently because too man shenanigans have taken place with it being just close.

It doesn't matter how it's spelled if the synod cannot police itself and deal with those renegade congregations/pastors who are responsible for the shenanigans. That is the main problem with synod. It says one thing and does another.

[NordicLutheran]

To interject some humor here, I dipped the Host too far into the cup and ended up getting my fingers in the Blood. I felt really embarrassed.

On second thought, maybe the common cup would have been easier! lol


You were allowed to commune without confirmation??? When did this policy start?

[RevCowboy]

You were allowed to commune without confirmation??? When did this policy start?

The policy of the ELCA is that all Baptized Christians are allowed to commune.

I hope you are Baptized BabyLutheran?

[BabyLutheran]

The policy of the ELCA is that all Baptized Christians are allowed to commune.

I hope you are Baptized BabyLutheran?
Nordic, the church we went to has communion open to all baptized Christians who believe in the Real Presence. They announce that rigth before communion begins.

I am not sure how many people who don't believe in the Real Presence, but are baptized, come forward anyway.

I am baptized and believe in the Real Presence.

[DaSeminarian]

It doesn't matter how it's spelled if the synod cannot police itself and deal with those renegade congregations/pastors who are responsible for the shenanigans. That is the main problem with synod. It says one thing and does another.


I don't think it is a matter of the synod cannot police itself, but that it WILL not police itself. That is the main problem with Synod.

[DaSeminarian]

The policy of the ELCA is that all Baptized Christians are allowed to commune.

I hope you are Baptized BabyLutheran?


And that would be because they would be violating their Altar and Pulpit fellowship agreements with the PCUSA and ECUSA and other Reformed church bodies. The LCMS only has Altar and Pulpit fellowship in the US with the AALC which used to be part of the ALC before the ELCA merger.

[BabyLutheran]

So are you saying that only Presbyterian types are technically allowed to inter-commune in ELCA churches since they are the only ones who have formal agreements with ELCA.

So baptized Methodists, Baptists, and nondenominationals are not supposed to be taking communion?

[DaRev]

So are you saying that only Presbyterian types are technically allowed to inter-commune in ELCA churches since they are the only ones who have formal agreements with ELCA.

So baptized Methodists, Baptists, and nondenominationals are not supposed to be taking communion?

The ELCA's fellowship arrangements really have little to do with receiving communion since they open it to anyone anyway. Their formal agreements have more to do with clergy exchange than the Sacrament.

[BabyLutheran]

ok that makes sense

[NordicLutheran]

Nordic, the church we went to has communion open to all baptized Christians who believe in the Real Presence. They announce that rigth before communion begins.

I am not sure how many people who don't believe in the Real Presence, but are baptized, come forward anyway.

I am baptized and believe in the Real Presence.
So people just have to say they believe in the real presence even if they don't really know what that means? Most of us have had to have 2 years of intensive instruction to be able to partake in the Lord's Supper. That's Lutheranism. You must learn the faith before taking the sacrament.

[BabyLutheran]

Wow, don't hold back next time, let it all out.

What makes you think I don't take it seriously?

And presumptuous of you to assume that anyone who goes to an ELCA church doesn't know what real presence means.

Sorry if I sound a little defensive, but you just made a lot of assumptions about me, and you know almost nothing about me.

BTW, I have been studying the Eucharist for the last 2 years. Why do you think I decided to switch from the happy clappy church and find a church who believes in it? I was tired of drinking grape juice and eating an oyster cracker and being told that Jesus was not to be taken literally, that it was just symbolic.

I knew absolutely nothing about the apparent problems between the ELCA and LCMS until I started reading this forum. So I can't speak to any of that. All I know is I would not have partaken if I could not 100% agree with what the Pastor said I needed to believe.

Other people there may have just ignored him and went up anyway, but I took it very seriously.

OK, I am done with my rant.

[DaRev]

I don't think Jesus made his disciples take a class on theology before they went to the Last Supper.

Well, I would say that the three years they followed Him was more than comparable to any confirmation instruction we mortal humans could do. I mean, they learned theology from God Himself! I thin that more than qualifies.

[DaSeminarian]

So people just have to say they believe in the real presence even if they don't really know what that means? Most of us have had to have 2 years of intensive instruction to be able to partake in the Lord's Supper. That's Lutheranism. Just because you come from a happy clappy charismatic Church, and say that you believe in the real presence means nothing. You must learn the faith before taking the sacrament, and in that light maybe the E*CA is a right fit for you. Some people actually take Lutheranism seriously.


Wow you sure are a welcoming person. NOT! I'm not sure I like your tone of voice here. There is no need to insult BabyLutheran or the ELCA here. Just because we don't agree with them on this issue is no reason to be snotty. I find your post insulting and I'm LCMS.

[KimLCMS]

Please keep the conversation polite!

[BabyLutheran]

Well, I would say that the three years they followed Him was more than comparable to any confirmation instruction we mortal humans could do. I mean, they learned theology from God Himself! I thin that more than qualifies.
My only opinion is, if Jesus commands us to eat his flesh and drink his blood to receive life ( I can't remember the exact biblical passage), we should not have to wait 2 years until some other human tells us we are ready. I think it is important to receive that sacrament as often as possible, IF we are believers.

I am not an expert, this is just my humble opinion.

I am sorry this thread had to become a debate, because I am not a very smart person, and will lose....lol.

[DaRev]

My only opinion is, if Jesus commands us to eat his flesh and drink his blood to receive life ( I can't remember the exact biblical passage), we should not have to wait 2 years until some other human tells us we are ready. I think it is important to receive that sacrament as often as possible, IF we are believers.

I am not an expert, this is just my humble opinion.

I am sorry this thread had to become a debate, because I am not a very smart person, and will lose....lol.

But if God's word also tells us that if we receive the Sacrament "without discerning the body" that we are guilty of sin and bringing judgement on ourselves, then we had be pretty sure that we know what we are receiving and why. This is why the LCMS takes the Sacrament seriously, to prevent people from comitting a sin at the altar rail. No one receives any benefit from comitting a sin.

[DaSeminarian]

My only opinion is, if Jesus commands us to eat his flesh and drink his blood to receive life ( I can't remember the exact biblical passage), we should not have to wait 2 years until some other human tells us we are ready. I think it is important to receive that sacrament as often as possible, IF we are believers.

I am not an expert, this is just my humble opinion.

I am sorry this thread had to become a debate, because I am not a very smart person, and will lose....lol.

BL,

I used to think as you do (about 7 years ago). As you are joining an ELCA church you should have no problem communining. We in the LCMS feel that Communion is more than just a personal thing, but is a community thing as well.

I don't like to think of this as a debate and I wish that some would have just kept their opinion to themselves because they were not very nice in their comment. You are going to hear stark differences here between the LCMS/WELS and ELCA. Sometimes the discussions get more heated than they should. I have been guilty a time or two of instigating some of these heated discussions, but please know that it is not meant to be personal towards yourself.

Scott

[BabyLutheran]

No problem, I have pretty thick skin.

I may grow into the opinion you guys hold, but for now I am not that way. I do take it very seriously though. It is not a lark to take communion.

The other factor is having a wife. She is adamant that communion is for every believer. She was very disgusted when I had her visit an EO and an RC church and they said we couldn't take communion. So for peace in the family, I would go to an ELCA even if I did agree with you guys.

I also believe the ELCA in my area is probably somewhat more conservative than in other parts of the country, but this is just a feeling. I live in the hometown of Pat Robertson...lol.

Surprisingly enough, there are 14 ELCA congregations within 20 miles of my house.

No WELS that I can find.

LCMS has 8 within 20 miles.

So we have quite a few choice to visit. I was shocked that there were that many Lutheran churches around in this Baptist part of the country

[ctay]

I live in Alabama where there is probably a Baptist church on every other street corner

[BabyLutheran]

The reason that is I think, is the congregational form of government they use where almost everything is put up to vote. If a large enough minority is dissatisfied with things, they just split off and start a new congregation.

At least that's the way it was explained to me, totally anectdotal evidence.

[ctay]

Yep i kind of figured that out.

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The reason that is I think, is the congregational form of government they use where almost everything is put up to vote. If a large enough minority is dissatisfied with things, they just split off and start a new congregation.

At least that's the way it was explained to me, totally anectdotal evidence.

I also held the same ideas about openness, and have for the most part grown out of them. The Congregation I now attend practice "Closed" Communion.

I still hold that there can be special circumstances that can be dealt with "at the Pastors discretion". The Congregation at this time does not.

I love my congregation, and stand by their discission for the sake of order, and because the Congregation, and Synod for that mater has the "Biblical Authority" to make such a discission. ( What is loosed, and what is bound).

If more would accept this authority, there would be a lot more unity among Lutherans.

All of our problems stem from those who believe that there authority supersedes that of Scripture, and the Church.

Mark:preach:

[NordicLutheran]

Wow you sure are a welcoming person. NOT! I'm not sure I like your tone of voice here. There is no need to insult BabyLutheran or the ELCA here. Just because we don't agree with them on this issue is no reason to be snotty. I find your post insulting and I'm LCMS.
I wasn't trying to be welcoming, and sorry if I came off harsh BabyLutheran. I was just angry that we have to go through two years of Confirmation to take communion and those in the ELCA don't, although I don't know about LCMS mega churches.

[BabyLutheran]

Hey, no problem! It's all in the past.

[DaSeminarian]

I wasn't trying to be welcoming, and sorry if I came off harsh BabyLutheran. I was just angry that we have to go through two years of Confirmation to take communion and those in the ELCA don't, although I don't know about LCMS mega churches.

Well I am pretty sure that not all ELCA churches are like that. Some of them do take seriously the role of Catechism. I have seen LCMS churches give communion to 5th graders at Maundy Thursday services after only three hours of instruction and an excursus on the Seder which to me is truly meaningless. DaRev's church confirms them and then they have communion at a different point later. (Am I correct DaRev?)

Scott

[DaRev]

DaRev's church confirms them and then they have communion at a different point later. (Am I correct DaRev?)

Scott

No, here they get their first communion at their confirmation. I would like to have confirmation before first communion. I always thought that Reformation Day would be a great day for Confirmation. It disassociates Confirmation from "graduation" near the end of the school year. I'd like to have Confirmation in the Fall and First Communion on Maundy Thursday.

[DaSeminarian]

No, here they get their first communion at their confirmation. I would like to have confirmation before first communion. I always thought that Reformation Day would be a great day for Confirmation. It disassociates Confirmation from "graduation" near the end of the school year. I'd like to have Confirmation in the Fall and First Communion on Maundy Thursday.

Thanks for clearing that up. I knew you had said something to me at one time or another, but I couldn't remember exactly how it was said.

I would like to see churches go to a 5th-6th grade catechetics program. This accomplishes two things. First of all it gives the young people the education they need to move into confirmed status and it isn't competing with after school sports or activities in middle school or junior high.

[DaRev]

Thanks for clearing that up. I knew you had said something to me at one time or another, but I couldn't remember exactly how it was said.

I would like to see churches go to a 5th-6th grade catechetics program. This accomplishes two things. First of all it gives the young people the education they need to move into confirmed status and it isn't competing with after school sports or activities in middle school or junior high.

I agree. I have yet to hear a convincing argument for early communion. If a fifth grader can learn enough to receive the Sacrament then why not confirm them then?

[Aibrean]

For my church, those who are baptized and repentant Christians who believe the same as we do in regards to the Sacrament can partake.

I wasn't baptized until July so I didn't partake. When I was baptized, that's when I started to (granted I did make a public declaration of faith, thus being confirmed at my baptism). My brother and fiance both were baptized but never officially confirmed. They both believe the same though. Granted, we did go through a class before-hand, almost like an adult confirmation class + new membership.

On to the baptism part though. I received my faith at a very young age, I grew up in a non-denominational church where baptism wasn't too talked about so I was never baptized there. But I'm glad that I wasn't because my fiance and I got baptized together and we will be married together in the same place :)

[RevCowboy]

No, here they get their first communion at their confirmation. I would like to have confirmation before first communion. I always thought that Reformation Day would be a great day for Confirmation. It disassociates Confirmation from "graduation" near the end of the school year. I'd like to have Confirmation in the Fall and First Communion on Maundy Thursday.

What about First Communion on the Great Vigil of Easter? Just like the early church when the catechumenate, who had been studying for 3 years, would be Baptized and then would, for the first time, join the rest of the Body of Christ at the Table of the Lord. If I had an adult wanting to be baptized, and they were willing, it would so cool to have a baptism on the Easter Vigil.

[Edial]

to DaRev ...
The ELCA's fellowship arrangements really have little to do with receiving communion since they open it to anyone anyway. Their formal agreements have more to do with clergy exchange than the Sacrament.

How can it possibly work if a Baptist pastor performs a communion at a Lutheran church? It is impossible to do.
Or are you saying that Baptists are leading liturgy at the ELCA churches?

I always thought open altar meant that no one who approaches would be denied after hearing ELCA proclamation about our communion beliefs.

Thanks,
Ed

[DaRev]

to DaRev ...
How can it possibly work if a Baptist pastor performs a communion at a Lutheran church? It is impossible to do.
Or are you saying that Baptists are leading liturgy at the ELCA churches?

No, the ELCA is not in altar/pulpit fellowship with any Baptist church body. They are in fellowship with three different Reformed church bodies, though, but it doesn't matter regarding who can receive the Sacrament there since the ELCA has an open table for anyone to commune. They don't need altar felloship with the Baptists for a Baptist to receive the Sacrament. They would need altar/pulpit fellowship with a Baptist church body for a Baptist clergyman to lead the liturgy.

I always thought open altar meant that no one who approaches would be denied after hearing ELCA proclamation about our communion beliefs.

Thanks,
Ed

That is what it means.

[CaliforniaJosiah]

In my LCMS congregation, all 13 and up are invited to be readers. We volunteer on a week-by-week basis and it fills up fast, it seems people really like to do this and are eager to sign up. We do the OT, Pslam and Epistle reading from one side of the altar. The pastor does the Gospel from the other side of the altar. Unlike the ECLA church I attended, we have no special vestments although when I do it, I wear my suit (the ONLY time I do so in church).

I'm not sure how the communion assistants got that ministry. There are about 5 - 3 men and 2 women - who seem to rotate. I'm simply unaware of how that works but I know it's not a "sign up" volunteer position as are the readers, ushers, hosts, acolytes, fellowship folks, etc.


Just ONE example......



Pax


- Josiah




.

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Thanks for clearing that up. I knew you had said something to me at one time or another, but I couldn't remember exactly how it was said.

I would like to see churches go to a 5th-6th grade catechetics program. This accomplishes two things. First of all it gives the young people the education they need to move into confirmed status and it isn't competing with after school sports or activities in middle school or junior high.


I agree....

In our congregation, we do First Communion in the 5th grade and Confirmation in the 7-8th grades. I never did either, and I KNOW all this is pure adiaphoron, but I find the practice not best.


I really don't know why Communion is so late. In the ELCA church I attended for awhile, it was in third grade which is close to the Catholic/Anglican tradition. I honestly don't know why it couldn't be first grade. They simply need to have a basic knowledge of Law (to be repentent), Gospel (to have forgiveness) and an awareness of Real Presence (Jesus is there - for reals!). I think any first grader could "get it" and I don't know why we are withholding Christ's Gift from them. BUT (and I stress this point), this IS adiaphoron and SOME arbitrary "line" needs to be drawn. And no matter where you put it there will be unfortunate cases where one is being needlessly hindered (and probably some being welcomed who should not). Part of being a congregation (a "synod" if you will) is respecting the policies of that congregation and of each other. We work and move and minister TOGETHER. I'm not one to rock the boat. He who desires all to be done his way will find himself in church by himself, and he who looks for the perfect church will search until he dies and goes to heaven.

I'm a few days shy of 20, but I can tell you - there is no crazier time in a persons life than in the 7th - 8th grades, and as has been stated, it's the time when homework and extra school events and pressures begin to really kick in. Frankly, I think having a solid time of spiritual growth BEFORE this would be very helpful - and there would be far fewer distractions (girls get cute around that age, LOL).


Here's what I personally would be interested in seeing (I suspect it's done this way SOMEWHERE)....

First Communion in First Grade
Confirmation in Fifth and Sixth Grades
Some kind of advance class for say 10-12 weeks in the Twelth Grade.



Just ONE very fallible perspective on matters of pure adiaphoron.



Pax



- Josiah





.

[DaRev]

I'm not sure how the communion assistants got that ministry. There are about 5 - 3 men and 2 women - who seem to rotate.

Why are there women assisting with the administration of the Sacrament in an LCMS church? :scratch: :doh:

[DaRev]

I agree....

In our congregation, we do First Communion in the 5th grade and Confirmation in the 7-8th grades. I never did either, and I KNOW all this is pure adiaphoron, but I find the practice not best.


I really don't know why Communion is so late. In the ELCA church I attended for awhile, it was in third grade which is close to the Catholic/Anglican tradition. I honestly don't know why it couldn't be first grade. They simply need to have a basic knowledge of Law (to be repentent), Gospel (to have forgiveness) and an awareness of Real Presence (Jesus is there - for reals!). I think any first grader could "get it" and I don't know why we are withholding Christ's Gift from them. BUT (and I stress this point), this IS adiaphoron and SOME arbitrary "line" needs to be drawn. And no matter where you put it there will be unfortunate cases where one is being needlessly hindered (and probably some being welcomed who should not). Part of being a congregation (a "synod" if you will) is respecting the policies of that congregation and of each other. We work and move and minister TOGETHER. I'm not one to rock the boat. He who desires all to be done his way will find himself in church by himself, and he who looks for the perfect church will search until he dies and goes to heaven.

I'm a few days shy of 20, but I can tell you - there is no crazier time in a persons life than in the 7th - 8th grades, and as has been stated, it's the time when homework and extra school events and pressures begin to really kick in. Frankly, I think having a solid time of spiritual growth BEFORE this would be very helpful - and there would be far fewer distractions (girls get cute around that age, LOL).


Here's what I personally would be interested in seeing (I suspect it's done this way SOMEWHERE)....

First Communion in First Grade
Confirmation in Fifth and Sixth Grades
Some kind of advance class for say 10-12 weeks in the Twelth Grade.



Just ONE very fallible perspective on matters of pure adiaphoron.


I wouldn't call the Biblical mandate of Close Communion "pure adiaphoron", and the premise of early communion most certainly is governed by the teaching of Close Communion.

If all that is needed to receive the Sacrament at an LCMS church is a basic understanding of Law, Gospel, and Real Presence, all of which come from the Small Catchism, then why do we not have altar fellowship with the ELCA who teach from and learn the exact same Small Catechism? The reason is simple; it requires more than just a basic understanding of Law, Gospel, and Real Presence, it requires an understanding of the Confession of the Church in order to make that public proclamation of agreement at the communion rail. The Scriptures outline more than just an individual faith to receive the Sacrament worthily, it requires a communal faith as well, an ability to proclaim agreement of Confession with those whom we kneel with at the altar. Those who have not yet been instructed in the Confession of the Church certainly cannot make a public agreement of Confession.

This is the BIG issue I have with early communion before Confirmation. It simply doesn't jive with the Scriptural mandate and our practice of Close Communion. I have yet to hear a convincing argument that rectifies this disparity.

[Edial]

No, the ELCA is not in altar/pulpit fellowship with any Baptist church body. They are in fellowship with three different Reformed church bodies, though, but it doesn't matter regarding who can receive the Sacrament there since the ELCA has an open table for anyone to commune. They don't need altar felloship with the Baptists for a Baptist to receive the Sacrament. They would need altar/pulpit fellowship with a Baptist church body for a Baptist clergyman to lead the liturgy.



That is what it means.
OK. Reformed churches. (They also believe communion is symbolic).
My question is concerning the exchange of clergy.
Are you saying clergy that believes communion is symbolic performs communion in ELCA churches?
Or, does that same clergy from Reformed churches perform the liturgy at ELCA?

[Edial]

Are there any special requirements to be a lay reader or a communion server during liturgy?

Is the reader position one that is normally hard to fill? I am thinking it might be a good way for me to serve if so.
At our ELCA church a lay person can do everything except what pastor is doing - communion and leading the service.
If there would not be a pastor, an elder would be able to do that.

Our readers, crucifiers and communion assistants are men and women that rotate.
Our pastors are male and we are keeping it this way as long as we can. (But that's another discussion).

It easy to become a reader.
Then they'll see if you are faithful in attendance and then you might become a crucifier and so forth.

In smaller churches it is easier for laity to perticipate in communion and lithurgy.

Thanks,
Ed

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Why are there women assisting with the administration of the Sacrament in an LCMS church? :scratch: :doh:

Actually, there are sometimes more women than men, because while the Pastor is (of course) male, sometimes the asisstant who holds the tray from which we take cups is female and the acolyte who holds the tray that we put the empty cup into is also female (about half of our acolytes are girls). Both tray holders might be female (athough that's not the usual case).





.

[RevCowboy]

They are in fellowship with three different Reformed church bodies, though, but it doesn't matter regarding who can receive the Sacrament there since the ELCA has an open table for anyone to commune.

I don't know all that much about the ELCA in practice, but I do know that there some ELCIC churches that have communion open to absolutely anyone, and I am always shamed and frustrated by this, but as a seminary student its not my place yet to say anything.

However, I know that the technical theology of both the ELCA and ELCIC is that all baptized persons are welcome to commune. Many pastors also add that only those who are baptized and regularly commune in their home congregations are welcome.

The interesting thing about this position is that while it is considered "liberal" among Lutherans it is rather conservative to most Christians. Our seminary is on the campus of the University of Saskatchewan (yes that is a real place!) and there is also an Anglican Seminary and a United Church seminary. Because we are so small, 60 students and 5 faculty (the whole ELCIC is only 200000 members) we have to share some classes and professors with the other two seminaries. Usually for stuff like church history and pastoral counseling or Christian education. Every other week our seminaries have a joint chapel service, usually just a short prayer service. However, the United Church is ultra liberal. A kind of liberalism not really known in the US. They have a couple unitarian students and most of the united church students cannot tell the difference.

Anyways, at one of these joint chapel services (of which I didn't attend unless it was being led by Lutherans) one of the unitarian students had her version of communion or whatever. Our faculty and students were so angry that it almost ended all cooperation between the three schools, since there was an agreement not have the Eucharist at these joint chapels. The faculty and students of United Church seminary couldn't figure out why we were so mad, and accused us of being fundamentalist conservative biggots stuck in the past.

[BabyLutheran]

I am not sure about the church we visited, I think Baptism was required, but not confirmation. I know there were some girls about 6-9 receiving communion when I was up there.

[DaSeminarian]

I agree....

In our congregation, we do First Communion in the 5th grade and Confirmation in the 7-8th grades. I never did either, and I KNOW all this is pure adiaphoron, but I find the practice not best.


I really don't know why Communion is so late. In the ELCA church I attended for awhile, it was in third grade which is close to the Catholic/Anglican tradition. I honestly don't know why it couldn't be first grade. They simply need to have a basic knowledge of Law (to be repentent), Gospel (to have forgiveness) and an awareness of Real Presence (Jesus is there - for reals!). I think any first grader could "get it" and I don't know why we are withholding Christ's Gift from them. BUT (and I stress this point), this IS adiaphoron and SOME arbitrary "line" needs to be drawn. And no matter where you put it there will be unfortunate cases where one is being needlessly hindered (and probably some being welcomed who should not). Part of being a congregation (a "synod" if you will) is respecting the policies of that congregation and of each other. We work and move and minister TOGETHER. I'm not one to rock the boat. He who desires all to be done his way will find himself in church by himself, and he who looks for the perfect church will search until he dies and goes to heaven.

I'm a few days shy of 20, but I can tell you - there is no crazier time in a persons life than in the 7th - 8th grades, and as has been stated, it's the time when homework and extra school events and pressures begin to really kick in. Frankly, I think having a solid time of spiritual growth BEFORE this would be very helpful - and there would be far fewer distractions (girls get cute around that age, LOL).


Here's what I personally would be interested in seeing (I suspect it's done this way SOMEWHERE)....

First Communion in First Grade
Confirmation in Fifth and Sixth Grades
Some kind of advance class for say 10-12 weeks in the Twelth Grade.



Just ONE very fallible perspective on matters of pure adiaphoron.



Pax



- Josiah





.

Josiah,

The think is, I agree with DaRev that Communion should still follow the catechetic training. To take communion before is anti-climactic. I think that confirmation should take place first like DaRev said and First communion at a different time after they have been confirmed.

What I would like to see is a standard across the board so that when a 13 year-old from my church who is confirmed goes to another church on vacation or visiting a relative, can take Holy Communion there as well. Communion before Confirmation IMO negates the need to have confirmation in some respects.

[LilLamb219]

I am not sure about the church we visited, I think Baptism was required, but not confirmation. I know there were some girls about 6-9 receiving communion when I was up there.

In the ELCA church I used to belong to, communion classes were given around 3rd grade (which, obviously was before confirmation classes) and after the children went through those classes, they were able to partake of communion. I didn't go through those classes as my mother said that I was too young (same for my sister who is a year older than I am). We waited until we were older.

[Edial]

Why are there women assisting with the administration of the Sacrament in an LCMS church? :scratch: :doh:
I cannot help but ask.

Why can't women assist in sacraments?
They were assisting Christ all the time.

I understand it is a traditional aspect of LCMS and WELS. If it is fine with them - no problem here.

I am just curious why women should not assist in sacraments.

Thanks,
Ed

[DaRev]

OK. Reformed churches. (They also believe communion is symbolic).
My question is concerning the exchange of clergy.
Are you saying clergy that believes communion is symbolic performs communion in ELCA churches?
Or, does that same clergy from Reformed churches perform the liturgy at ELCA?

Yes.

[DaRev]

I cannot help but ask.

Why can't women assist in sacraments?
They were assisting Christ all the time.

I understand it is a traditional aspect of LCMS and WELS. If it is fine with them - no problem here.

I am just curious why women should not assist in sacraments.

Thanks,
Ed

The administration of the Sacrament of the Altar is part of the function of the Pastoral Office to which women are not called. To have a woman assist in the administration of the Sacrament is giving the woman a function of the Pastoral Office which she is not called to do. The pastor and those who assist him with the administration of the Lord's Supper are to be men.

[BabyLutheran]

What happens when no men volunteer or are called to serve? Just curious, we men are lazy and women tend to have to take up the slack. Just telling it like I see it in most churches today.

[DaRev]

What happens when no men volunteer or are called to serve? Just curious, we men are lazy and women tend to have to take up the slack. Just telling it like I see it in most churches today.

Then the women should do their duty to kick their husbands in the behind and convince them to do their God given duty. Women should not desire to do what God has ordained men to do.

[CaliforniaJosiah]

The administration of the Sacrament of the Altar is part of the function of the Pastoral Office to which women are not called. To have a woman assist in the administration of the Sacrament is giving the woman a function of the Pastoral Office which she is not called to do. The pastor and those who assist him with the administration of the Lord's Supper are to be men.

I don't agree, but I respect and honor your position.
I assume, then, that you either have all male acolytes or that you don't use them to to assist. In my congregation, they do the exact same thing that the occasional woman does - hold a tray. Perhaps you use the "common cup" or otherwise don't use acoyltes.


Do you also consider the ushers to be a part of this administration of the Sacrament? If so, do you only have male ushers?


Thank you for sharing your opinion and for respecting mine!


Pax


- Josiah




.

[Edial]

Yes.
Where?
If there is one or two, there are weird congregations like these everywhere.

The ELCA congregation that I know would think it is absurd.
I also suspect there are way too many more conservative and moderate ELCA congregations that one would imagine.

Thanks,
Ed

[Edial]

The administration of the Sacrament of the Altar is part of the function of the Pastoral Office to which women are not called. To have a woman assist in the administration of the Sacrament is giving the woman a function of the Pastoral Office which she is not called to do. The pastor and those who assist him with the administration of the Lord's Supper are to be men.
She turns pages and holds the tray.
She does not even bless the congregants.

But that's really your business.

Thanks,
Ed

[DaRev]

I don't agree, but I respect and honor your position.
I assume, then, that you either have all male acolytes or that you don't use them to to assist. In my congregation, they do the exact same thing that the occasional woman does - hold a tray. Perhaps you use the "common cup" or otherwise don't use acoyltes.


Do you also consider the ushers to be a part of this administration of the Sacrament? If so, do you only have male ushers?


Thank you for sharing your opinion and for respecting mine!


Pax


- Josiah




.

Ushering people up to the altar is not part of the administration of the Sacrament.

Holding the tray for the empty "shot glasses" (which I detest, BTW) is not part of the administration of the Sacrament.

Distributing the elements IS a part of the administration of the Sacrament, thus women are not called to do that and should not be doing that.

[DaRev]

Where?
If there is one or two, there are weird congregations like these everywhere.

The ELCA congregation that I know would think it is absurd.
I also suspect there are way too many more conservative and moderate ELCA congregations that one would imagine.

Thanks,
Ed

Alatr/pulpit fellowship allows for the exchange of clergy in those churches in fellowship. I have heard from a number of ELCA members where a Presbyterian or a UCC pastor has conducted the service in an ELCA church including the administration of the Sacrament. There are also cases where an ELCA pastor has presided in a Presbyterian church. That's what the altar/pulpit fellowship allows.

[BabyLutheran]

I will really be paying attention this time to see how the church I visit does it.

Hmmm..maybe I should have my head bowed and be contemplating Jesus instead....

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Ushering people up to the altar is not part of the administration of the Sacrament.

Holding the tray for the empty "shot glasses" (which I detest, BTW) is not part of the administration of the Sacrament.

Distributing the elements IS a part of the administration of the Sacrament, thus women are not called to do that and should not be doing that.

So, ushering people for the Sacrament is not assisting with the Sacrament. Holding the tray to put down the cups is not assisting with the Sacrament. But holding the tray to take out the cups IS assisting with the Sacrament. Is that your position?



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah



.

[DaRev]

So, ushering people for the Sacrament is not assisting with the Sacrament.

I think I said that already.

Holding the tray to put down the cups is not assisting with the Sacrament.

I think I said that, too.

But holding the tray to take out the cups IS assisting with the Sacrament. Is that your position?


Distribution of the elements is a part of the administration of the Sacrament which is part of the function of pastoral office, thus women should not be doing that.

[maylor]

DaRev,

Does your church use lay men for the administration of the Sacrament of Holy Communion? If so, what is the training required? Must the person have been a member for a certain amount of time also?

On the topic of ushering, my church had me doing usher work within the first month of my confirmation. On Christmas eve I also helped with the candle lighting for Silent Night. My church doesn't use women ushers. They get couples to do greeter/usher roles with the women as greeters and men as ushers.

I'm actually not interested in helping with the administration of the Sacrament at this time, being new to the church and honestly not having the strongest Faith either.

[DaRev]

DaRev,

Does your church use lay men for the administration of the Sacrament of Holy Communion? If so, what is the training required? Must the person have been a member for a certain amount of time also?

Our assistants are elders. Men who are elders are held to the same standards set forth in 1 Timothy 2 and Titus. They help with the distribution of the "shot glasses." If I am away and an ordained pastor is unavailable to preside over the service, one of the elders will conduct a lay non-communion service. In some ways our elders serve more as deacons.

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I think I see what happened....


This thread seemed to be about ASSISTING with Communion until # 63 with our clergy friend changed it to ADMINISTERING the Sacrament. I missed that re-direction (sorry).


I agree that ushers, acolytes, altar guild, etc. are not ADMINISTERING the Sacrament (although they are assisting with it).


DaRev, sir, it seems that you are equating DISTRIBUTING the Sacrament with ADMINISTERING it. I'm not altogether sure I follow that, but I do think that's what you are doing. Thus, since you believe that only males may ADMINISTER it, it is also your position that only males may DISTRIBUTE it since it SEEMS that you are equating those two things (?). Thus your understanding of what seems odd to me - that a female may hold one tray but not the other?


Am I better understanding your position?


Sorry.


- Josiah





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[maylor]

Our assistants are elders. They help with the distribution of the "shot glasses."

I note your disdain for the individual cups. Do you use the common cup also? Sorry in advance if you've answered this a million times before at this forum.

[DaRev]

I think I see what happened....

This thread seemed to be about ASSISTING with Communion until # 63 with our clergy friend changed it to ADMINISTERING the Sacrament. I missed that re-direction (sorry).

I agree that ushers, acolytes, altar guild, etc. are not ADMINISTERING the Sacrament (although they are assisting with it).

DaRev, sir, it seems that you are equating DISTRIBUTING the Sacrament with ADMINISTERING it. I'm not altogether sure I follow that, but I do think that's what you are doing. Thus, since you believe that only males may ADMINISTER it, it is also your position that only males may DISTRIBUTE it since it SEEMS that you are equating those two things (?). Thus your understanding of what seems odd to me - that a female may hold one tray but not the other?


Am I better understanding your position?

.

I apologize for not being clear, but I don't know any clearer way of putting it.

Those who usher folks to the rail, those who collect the empty recepticles, and those who set up the communion ware prior to the service are not directly involved in the Sacrament, though they may be assiting. None of these are functions of the pastoral office.

The distribution of the elements is part of the administration of the Sacrament which is a function of the pastoral office to which women are not called. Women should not be involved in any aspect of the administration of the Sacrament including the distribution of the elements.

[DaRev]

I note your disdain for the individual cups. Do you use the common cup also? Sorry in advance if you've answered this a million times before at this forum.

Yes we do. In fact I think most of our members use the common cup, although I've never counted.

[NordicLutheran]

I don't know all that much about the ELCA in practice, but I do know that there some ELCIC churches that have communion open to absolutely anyone, and I am always shamed and frustrated by this, but as a seminary student its not my place yet to say anything.

However, I know that the technical theology of both the ELCA and ELCIC is that all baptized persons are welcome to commune. Many pastors also add that only those who are baptized and regularly commune in their home congregations are welcome.

The interesting thing about this position is that while it is considered "liberal" among Lutherans it is rather conservative to most Christians. Our seminary is on the campus of the University of Saskatchewan (yes that is a real place!) and there is also an Anglican Seminary and a United Church seminary. Because we are so small, 60 students and 5 faculty (the whole ELCIC is only 200000 members) we have to share some classes and professors with the other two seminaries. Usually for stuff like church history and pastoral counseling or Christian education. Every other week our seminaries have a joint chapel service, usually just a short prayer service. However, the United Church is ultra liberal. A kind of liberalism not really known in the US. They have a couple unitarian students and most of the united church students cannot tell the difference.

Anyways, at one of these joint chapel services (of which I didn't attend unless it was being led by Lutherans) one of the unitarian students had her version of communion or whatever. Our faculty and students were so angry that it almost ended all cooperation between the three schools, since there was an agreement not have the Eucharist at these joint chapels. The faculty and students of United Church seminary couldn't figure out why we were so mad, and accused us of being fundamentalist conservative biggots stuck in the past.
That Unitarian communion sounds scary. I'm glad the Lutherans stood their ground!

[NordicLutheran]

I think I see what happened....


This thread seemed to be about ASSISTING with Communion until # 63 with our clergy friend changed it to ADMINISTERING the Sacrament. I missed that re-direction (sorry).


I agree that ushers, acolytes, altar guild, etc. are not ADMINISTERING the Sacrament (although they are assisting with it).


DaRev, sir, it seems that you are equating DISTRIBUTING the Sacrament with ADMINISTERING it. I'm not altogether sure I follow that, but I do think that's what you are doing. Thus, since you believe that only males may ADMINISTER it, it is also your position that only males may DISTRIBUTE it since it SEEMS that you are equating those two things (?). Thus your understanding of what seems odd to me - that a female may hold one tray but not the other?


Am I better understanding your position?


Sorry.


- Josiah





.
From reading DaRev's position, I don't think it's just his, it's also the official position of the LCMS. Right?

[DaRev]

The faculty and students of United Church seminary couldn't figure out why we were so mad, and accused us of being fundamentalist conservative biggots stuck in the past.

There are worse places to be stuck. :P

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Our assistants are elders. Men who are elders are held to the same standards set forth in 1 Timothy 2 and Titus. They help with the distribution of the "shot glasses." If I am away and an ordained pastor is unavailable to preside over the service, one of the elders will conduct a lay non-communion service. In some ways our elders serve more as deacons.

Regarding Communion; this is our practice in Lutheran Church Canada also.

Likewise on rare occasions when the Pastor is away and we can't schedule a guest Pastor, Deacon or Sem. Student, we Elders have led service (usually "Responsive Prayer" or "Morning Prayer" from LSB.) Pastor provides a written sermon to be read. This is read from the lectern, NOT the pulpit, and the service is concluded with the Benediction, substituting the word "us" in place of "you".

[DaRev]

Regarding Communion; this is our practice in Lutheran Church Canada also.

Likewise on rare occasions when the Pastor is away and we can't schedule a guest Pastor, Deacon or Sem. Student, we Elders have led service (usually "Responsive Prayer" or "Morning Prayer" from LSB.) Pastor provides a written sermon to be read. This is read from the lectern, NOT the pulpit, and the service is concluded with the Benediction, substituting the word "us" in place of "you".

:thumbsup:

[Edial]

Maybe it's just me, but I cannot put such a strong emphasis on the traditional Christianity as some do.

I probably am one of the strongest respectors of the liturgy and the proper behavior at the altar.

What I am an acolyte or an assistant minister I always take it seriously. A long sleeve shirt, slacks and shoes under the robe or acolyte's garb ... bowing at the altar whenever I pass by it ... clear and meaningful reading.

However, I am doing this out of respect and not because I have to.

Some of the traditional aspects that some mention here sound as a necessity for Christianity. Some are, but some aren't.

I thing that the division between some of the Lutherans are not necessarily Scriptural, but also traditional.

Thanks,
Ed

[DaRev]

That may be true. But I think that the reverence at the altar is based on the Confessional stance of everything done decently and in good order. When we start to let certain things slip by applying the over-used term "adiaphora" it can and does effect other things.

[MarkRohfrietsch]

That may be true. But I think that the reverence at the altar is based on the Confessional stance of everything done decently and in good order. When we start to let certain things slip by applying the over-used term "adiaphora" it can and does effect other things.

This it certainly is. This reverence not only contributes to decency and good order, but is symbolic of the respect for our Lord, the Sacraments, his Church, and the Pastoral office that He instituted. For me, personally, it is required; but no matter how reverent we try to be I am sure that we fall short of the Glory that is due our Lord.

Remember: God told the Israelites how to build His Tabernacle, and how to worship him. We do well to emulate this as best we can.

Mark

[Edial]

That may be true. But I think that the reverence at the altar is based on the Confessional stance of everything done decently and in good order. When we start to let certain things slip by applying the over-used term "adiaphora" it can and does effect other things.
And there is the other side of the pendulum.
When we stress the proper behavior to the level of necessity, some are trapped into doing that out of traditional requirements and not of the sincere respect.

At another church there was a dear woman who was sincerelly appalled when she saw sneakers under the robe of one of the choir members.

Thanks,
Ed

[DaRev]

And there is the other side of the pendulum.
When we stress the proper behavior to the level of necessity, some are trapped into doing that out of traditional requirements and not of the sincere respect.

At another church there was a dear woman who was sincerelly appalled when she saw sneakers under the robe of one of the choir members.

Thanks,
Ed

:D That reminds me of when I was on vicarage. One of the boys who was acolyting had on his football uniform (minus pads) under his acolyte robe. He had on his cleats which the pastor wouldn't allow him to wear in the sanctuary, so he acolyted in his blue socks. Red cassock, white cotta, and blue socks! ^_^ I told him he should go barefoot, but he just laughed at me. :P
Pastor should have found someone else to sub for him.

[MarkRohfrietsch]

[quote=Edial;42547885]And there is the other side of the pendulum.
When we stress the proper behavior to the level of necessity, some are trapped into doing that out of traditional requirements and not of the sincere respect.

At another church there was a dear woman who was sincerely appalled when she saw sneakers under the robe of one of the choir members.

That's the womans problem, not the choristers!:D

[MarkRohfrietsch]

:D That reminds me of when I was on vicarage. One of the boys who was acolyting had on his football uniform (minus pads) under his acolyte robe. He had on his cleats which the pastor wouldn't allow him to wear in the sanctuary, so he acolyted in his blue socks. Red cassock, white cotta, and blue socks! ^_^ I told him he should go barefoot, but he just laughed at me. :P
Pastor should have found someone else to sub for him.

We had a rather short Pastor for a time. He always wore western boots (in South-Western Ontario?):scratch: under his Alb. Didn't bother me a bit!^_^

[NordicLutheran]

I have a question about the laity recieving communion. When the host is administered why do some people accept it on the tongue and others do not. I know it's probably adiaphora, but which way is better? I feel that not touching the host is the most respectful way of going about it. But I don't know! Any info about history or stuff people have learned at Seminary?

[LutherNut]

Either way is OK. Jesus says "Take and eat" so taking it in the hand is OK. Personally, I receive it directly on my tongue.

[RevCowboy]

We had a rather short Pastor for a time. He always wore western boots (in South-Western Ontario?):scratch: under his Alb. Didn't bother me a bit!^_^

Cowboy boots are dress shoes in Alberta!;)

I have this dream of someday when I am pastor, that on some hot summer day I will come to the office in my clerical collar untucked (perhaps with the sleeves ripped off), shorts (preferably camo shorts), and sit my office playing xbox all afternoon listening to rock music! I have no idea why I want to do this, and I am sure it would offend every grandmother in my congregation, but its just a dream of mine.

What about this. Is it okay for pastors to have long hair? On Friday the parishioner who arranges worship assistants for our congregation came by and said that I looked like I belonged on a Harley with my long hair and beard. He seemed to think this was a good thing, or at least funny, but I wonder if he was trying to say something...

[RevCowboy]

I have a question about the laity recieving communion. When the host is administered why do some people accept it on the tongue and others do not. I know it's probably adiaphora, but which way is better? I feel that not touching the host is the most respectful way of going about it. But I don't know! Any info about history or stuff people have learned at Seminary?

Typically receiving the host is a practice from denominations that revere and pray to the host. In some Orthodox churches, the Eucharist is distributed by priest who uses a spoon to expertly flick some wine soaked bread into the mouth of recipients so as not to spill any.

Lutherans typically don't revere the host in the same way, rather we believe that it is in the believers reception of the element that it becomes bread and body. However, my practice is to consume whatever bread and wine is left over. As assistant to the Dean of Chapel at school last year, there was more than a few times that first year students overestimated the amount of wine needed. Chapel is right before lunch and lets just say there was few normally boring afternoon classes that I enjoyed more than usual on those days.

[DaRev]

Lutherans typically don't revere the host in the same way, rather we believe that it is in the believers reception of the element that it becomes bread and body.

That must be an ELCA thing. The LCMS rejects receptionism.

[Edial]

That must be an ELCA thing. The LCMS rejects receptionism.
This kind of supprts my view that the division between the synods has much traditional flavor to it.

[RevCowboy]

That must be an ELCA thing. The LCMS rejects receptionism.

Actually, I think its a Norwegian pietist thing, because I just went and checked my notes from my liturgy class in first year and they say something to the effect that it doesn't matter when it happens, but simply the fact that Christ is present. Wow, just goes to show what is lurking in the back of the brain when you let it go unchecked...

Oh, I am not ELCA... I am ELCIC. Sister churches yes, but we are not the same. For example the whole ELCIC is smaller than one Synod (district) in Minneapolis and everyone is literally related. We Canadians are sensitive about trying not to be Americans in any way possible (its because we hate the fact that we secretly love the US);):blush:

[Till]

I have a question about the laity recieving communion. When the host is administered why do some people accept it on the tongue and others do not. I know it's probably adiaphora, but which way is better? I feel that not touching the host is the most respectful way of going about it. But I don't know! Any info about history or stuff people have learned at Seminary?

Luther mentioned this in his Invocavit sermons. On of the things introduced by Karlstadt during Luther's absence was that all HAD to receive the bread in their hands. Luther opposed the coercion and reintroduced reception on the tongue for those whose consciousness would not allow them to receive the host in their hands.

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Luther mentioned this in his Invocavit sermons. On of the things introduced by Karlstadt during Luther's absence was that all HAD to receive the bread in their hands. Luther opposed the coercion and reintroduced reception on the tongue for those whose consciousness would not allow them to receive the host in their hands.

When I was younger, we ALL received on the tongue only. We had the Chancel re-carpeted, and the new carpet caused the Pastor to build up quite a static charge. One Sunday of zapping the first person of each table resulted in changing the practice to placing in the hands. One was still welcome to receive on the tongue if they wished to take the chance.

Mark

[DaSeminarian]

When I was younger, we ALL received on the tongue only. We had the Chancel re-carpeted, and the new carpet caused the Pastor to build up quite a static charge. One Sunday of zapping the first person of each table resulted in changing the practice to placing in the hands. One was still welcome to receive on the tongue if they wished to take the chance.

Mark


A little extra "charge" with the sacramet eh?

I can see why the people would want the pastor to hand it to them.

BTW... Carpet is a sure-fire way to kill the acoustics in any sanctuary.

[DaRev]

Actually, I think its a Norwegian pietist thing, because I just went and checked my notes from my liturgy class in first year and they say something to the effect that it doesn't matter when it happens, but simply the fact that Christ is present. Wow, just goes to show what is lurking in the back of the brain when you let it go unchecked...

Well, it does matter. What Christ handed the disciples was His body, so we do know that it occurs prior to reception and after the Verba. We just don't know exactly when.

[porterross]

Luther mentioned this in his Invocavit sermons. On of the things introduced by Karlstadt during Luther's absence was that all HAD to receive the bread in their hands. Luther opposed the coercion and reintroduced reception on the tongue for those whose consciousness would not allow them to receive the host in their hands.


AHA!!! This is good to know as I am one of those who prefers to receive the host directly on my tongue. :angel:

[RevCowboy]

Well, it does matter. What Christ handed the disciples was His body, so we do know that it occurs prior to reception and after the Verba. We just don't know exactly when.

Good point! You made me check my notes and then my text book! I must have been not paying close enough attention when they ran over this in liturgy... I am always glad when I can leave a little behind the unhelpful bits of my Norwegian Pietist roots and get things straight!

[RevCowboy]

When I was younger, we ALL received on the tongue only. We had the Chancel re-carpeted, and the new carpet caused the Pastor to build up quite a static charge. One Sunday of zapping the first person of each table resulted in changing the practice to placing in the hands. One was still welcome to receive on the tongue if they wished to take the chance.

Mark

How do you know it wasn't the divine mystery of the Eucharist?;):liturgy:

[MarkRohfrietsch]

How do you know it wasn't the divine mystery of the Eucharist?;):liturgy:

Or Divine retribution for past sins?:cry::D^_^

[MarkRohfrietsch]

BTW... Carpet is a sure-fire way to kill the acoustics in any sanctuary.

The acoustics were great even with carpet! It was a high, deep vaulted gothic arch. The old carpet was wool and did not seem to be as bad as the new synthetic one.:scratch:

[latebloomer]

My first thought for a layman to assist during a service would be as an usher or as a greeter. We have congregation members read the OT and Epistle lessons sometimes, but a pastor always reads the Gospel. We have 2 pastors, but as they help out area churches with clergy vacancies, we don't always have both there. If they are both there, one does the readings and the liturgy and the other does the sermon. We don't have people with trays. As we go up to the communion rail, there is a small table set up in the aisle dividing the two communion rails. Those who want non-alcoholic wine or individual cup pick theirs up as they go past on their way to kneel, then hold it until after the Host is distributed and drink when the pastor with the Cup stops in front of them. One of our congregational woodworkers built a small tray that runs the length of the communion rail on the altar side, and when you're finished, you drop your little cup into the tray. After the service, the altar guild comes in and cleans up. Once a year or so ago, both pastors were gone. An elder read the sermon the senior pastor had written. There was no communion at that service.

[BabyLutheran]

I paid more attention this Sunday during Communion.

The two pastors distributed the bread, and lay persons (male and female) brought the wine in two cups: one for intinction, and one common cup.

I messed the system up though because I put the bread in my mouth and the intinction cup guy came up to me and was bewildered until I motioned to the common cup guy. I must be the only one who wants the common cup! lol

[synger]

We stopped to worship at an LCMS church in Ohio when we were traveling to Michigan last summer, and they all took the host on their tongue, so we did too. I found that I preferred that, so I continue to do so at my home church. I think I'm one of only a couple in the congregation who do. The rest seem to take it in their hands. There's usually one, maybe two of us who take common cup for each...um.. seating? kneeling? cluster? Anyway, the rest of them take the individual cups.

When we go to the SE district leadership conference in the summer, the pastors distribute the elements at various "stations" around the room (because it's a huge number of people). The practice there is intinction.

So we run the whole gamut of practices.

[CaliforniaJosiah]

In my LCMS church, they use the little individual cups. Okay, I totally agree with you, but hey.... if you look for the perfect church you'll look for a long time and probably end up in a church of one. It's just not worth any "fights" and there sure isn't going to be one from me (I'm fundamentally a lover, not a fighter, LOL). It's okay, Jesus don't care, I shouldn't either. BUT....

It is the custom to do the upward facing hands thing there. BUT, before I began taking communion at that church, I noticed a couple where he placed it on their tongue, so when I talked to him about my participating, I asked him about that and he said he just takes his "cue" from the person. Open your mouth WIDE and stick your tongue out at him, and that's where he'll put it. Stick out hands out to receive it, and that's where you get it. I can live with that....

BTW, about half of us cross ourselves, about half don't, no one seems to care what others do on that....



Life. Together.



Pax


- Josiah




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[CaliforniaJosiah]

So we run the whole gamut of practices.


Adiaphoron.

One of the things I LOVE about Lutherans....


BTW, I'm SHOCKED almost beyond belief that there are Lutheran Admins here at CF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow. I can't believe it. It NEVER would have happened in my day, NEVER. WAIT A MINUTE, I just realized, BOTH admins IN THEOLOGY are Lutherans!!!!!! I'm floored, speechless.... Honest.




.

[gtmyers]

This may not be the right area for this post but, what are some key differences between Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox?

[BabyLutheran]

Go to "The Ancient Way" section, there is a lot of info on that subject.

[DaRev]

There's usually one, maybe two of us who take common cup for each...um.. seating? kneeling? cluster?

It's referred to as a "table".

[Melethiel]

Adiaphoron.

One of the things I LOVE about Lutherans....


BTW, I'm SHOCKED almost beyond belief that there are Lutheran Admins here at CF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow. I can't believe it. It NEVER would have happened in my day, NEVER. WAIT A MINUTE, I just realized, BOTH admins IN THEOLOGY are Lutherans!!!!!! I'm floored, speechless.... Honest.




.
Sure to tick both the Catholics and the Protestants off. ^_^

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Sure to tick both the Catholics and the Protestants off. ^_^

I'm left scratching my head and speechless.....
Glad, but absolutely confused....



I wonder if I have the guts to post in Theology again?
....... nope.





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