infant baptism

[heal103]

Hi, I asked this about a week ago but somehow it disappeared so I'm trying again. I was wondering if anyone can explain to me the biblical basis for infant baptism. I know somelater writings accept it but is there a biblical basis? I'm Lutheran. I want to be able to defend infant baptism when I encounter those who oppose it but I'mnot exactly sure myself. Does the word "baptize" really mean immerse? Do Lutherans believe that baptism is the New Covenant the way circumcision was?? How do we respond to the bible verses that say "believe and be baptized" in that order ? I know this is kind of a deep issue but I really need to understand this so I can properly defend it since I'm so often told its wrong. Anyone want to tackel this? Thanks so much!

[DaSeminarian]

Hi, I asked this about a week ago but somehow it disappeared so I'm trying again. I was wondering if anyone can explain to me the biblical basis for infant baptism. I know somelater writings accept it but is there a biblical basis? I'm Lutheran. I want to be able to defend infant baptism when I encounter those who oppose it but I'mnot exactly sure myself. Does the word "baptize" really mean immerse? Do Lutherans believe that baptism is the New Covenant the way circumcision was?? How do we respond to the bible verses that say "believe and be baptized" in that order ? I know this is kind of a deep issue but I really need to understand this so I can properly defend it since I'm so often told its wrong. Anyone want to tackel this? Thanks so much!

Well first lets look at Matthew 28:19.


19 j (http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=42360229#_ftn1)Go therefore and k (http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=42360229#_ftn2)make disciples of l (http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=42360229#_ftn3)ALL NATIONS, baptizing them m (http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=42360229#_ftn4)in2 (http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=42360229#_ftn5) n (http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=42360229#_ftn6)the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them o (http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=42360229#_ftn7)to observe all that p (http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=42360229#_ftn8)I have commanded you. And behold, q (http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=42360229#_ftn9)I am with you always, to r (http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=42360229#_ftn10)the end of the age.”

All Nations refers to those who are babies as well as elderly, black, white, Yellow, Red and all ages in between.

16 w (http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=42360229#_ftn1)Whoever believes and is x (http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=42360229#_ftn2)baptized y (http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=42360229#_ftn3)will be saved, but z (http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=42360229#_ftn4)whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And a (http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=42360229#_ftn5)these signs will accompany those who believe: b (http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=42360229#_ftn6)in my name they will cast out demons; c (http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=42360229#_ftn7)they will speak in new tongues; 18 d (http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=42360229#_ftn8)they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; e (http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=42360229#_ftn9)they will lay their hands f (http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=42360229#_ftn10)on the sick, and they will recover.”[/URL]

Now one must be careful not to consider the word order in any way. One does not come to believe first and then be baptized. They are not written that way in the Greek so we must be careful to understand that in the English. Believing and Baptizing are at the same time. One's baptism brings one the ability to believe. These two things together save us. Infants can believe and trust just like they trust and believe that their parents will feed them, diaper them, clothe them etc.

There are also the accounts of the Philippian Jailer with Paul and Silas and Peter and Cornelius and also Paul baptizing the house of Lydia. Whole households were baptized which means there could have been infants in the household.

I know there are many accounts in the New Testament where we hear of adults being baptized and infant baptism didn't become a norm until the fifth century, but it was still practiced.

I hope that helps



[URL="http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=42360229#_ftn11"] (http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=42360229#_ftn11)

[LilLamb219]

http://christianforums.com/t6674539-infant-baptism.html

Here's the link to your original thread. It's in the sub-forum, so that's why it was difficult to find :)

[DaRev]

Here are a couple things to consider from Scripture. First there is Psalm 51,

Psalm 51:1-5, "Be gracious to me, O God, according to Thy lovingkindness; According to the greatness of Thy compassion blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, And cleanse me from my sin. For I know my transgressions, And my sin is ever before me. Against Thee, Thee only, I have sinned, And done what is evil in Thy sight, So that Thou art justified when Thou dost speak, And blameless when Thou dost judge. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."

This passage shows us not only are we sinful from conception and thus are in a state of rebellion against God from the very beginning, but that the washing and cleansing from our sins is something that God does. We can't do it ourselves.

Then from 1 Peter,

1 Peter 3:21 "And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Here we see that Baptism is a saving act, and only God can save us, thus Baptism is from God not from Man.

Then there's John's Gospel,

John 3:5-6, "Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.'"

Jesus is clearly talking about Baptism here as being a Spiritual birth. Only the Spirit can give birth to spirit, and that is done through Baptism. It is the spiritual birth that creates faith. It is God's work, not ours.

These passages (and there are others as well) shows that Baptism is a work of God and not an ordinance of Man. It shows that Baptism does indeed save us and that it is necessary for salvation. They also show that all humans are sinful from birth and are in need of this Spiritual rebirth in order to be saved. The necessity of Baptism is at birth and not at some imaginary "age of reason." Others here have given some of the passages where children have been included in the command to Baptize.


Also, the Greek word "baptizo" simply means to "wash with water". It does not mean only immersion/submersion. Baptism is the application of water united with the word of God through which we are born spiritually and thus receive the gift of faith that leads to eternal life.

[BabyLutheran]

On the flip side, where do the Baptists, etc get the concept that you must be of the age of reason in order to be baptized? Surely they didn't just entirely make it up. We would need to know their side in order to enable us to defend our side.

[MagnusEmboden]

On the flip side, where do the Baptists, etc get the concept that you must be of the age of reason in order to be baptized? Surely they didn't just entirely make it up. We would need to know their side in order to enable us to defend our side.

Well, Baptists don't believe that baptism actually does anything; i.e. they do not believe it to be a Sacrament, a means of grace.

For Baptists, baptism is an ordinance, a command of Christ given to believers to be a sign and emblem of what has already taken place in their conversion.

It represents and signals their entry into the church and is often described as "the first act of obedience" for a new believer.

The "age of reason" thing is trickier. Most Baptists I have known resist this sort of characterization, but they do tend to believe and confess that the only persons who are fit recipients of baptism are those who can understand the Gospel and place conscious faith in Jesus for their salvation.

The problem we have with that (well, one problem anyway) is that we do not believe faith to be primarily cognitive; i.e. it has very little to do with understanding and rather a lot more to do with trust. Understanding follows.

This does tend to put Baptists in a tricky position because while they loudly proclaim their belief in salvation solely by the merits of Christ, without any work of their own, their stance on Baptism tends to make them effectively semi-pelagian since it requires at the least the work of cognition, of understanding, in order to enjoy all the benefits of being joined to the church which one would have to assume would include salvation.

This amounts to a denial of the efficiency of Christ's work when taken to its conclusion.

Fortunately, the vast majority of Baptists are blessedly inconsistent in their theology on this point.

[BabyLutheran]

Thanks for the post, I am new to Lutheran theology. Never even knew Lutherans were different...lol

I find myself agreeing with the positions on every occasion, now that I am actually learning them.

[MagnusEmboden]

Thanks for the post, I am new to Lutheran theology. Never even knew Lutherans were different...lol

I find myself agreeing with the positions on every occasion, now that I am actually learning them.

I wasn't raised Lutheran either. I am a convert as well.

The problem for me was that I came from a more, um, stringent variety of Protestant Christianity (Calvinism, Presbyterianism) and had to un-learn a lot.

I kept expecting Lutheranism to be as complicated and involved as Reformed theology and had to learn over and over again that one of the great secrets to "getting" Lutheran spirituality and theology is to keep it simple and stay close to the cross.

[heal103]

Wow, thank you all so much for the detailed explanations. You are all great. A few more questions.., I always thought "Baptize all Nations" meant baptize those all over the world. How do we understant it as being all ages? Also the main arguement Baptists use is the many scriptures that say"repent and be baptized" and Jesus saying at the great Commisson "Go and make diciples baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? On each of these verses its beleive and baptize. Is it true that in the original Greek, it was not written that way?? Then why are they not aware of that. I'm sure they would say "yes it is written that way" Aren't Baptist ministers schooled in Greek in Seminary?

[LilLamb219]

Aren't babies and young children a part of "all nations"? Why exclude them?

[DaSeminarian]

Wow, thank you all so much for the detailed explanations. You are all great. A few more questions.., I always thought "Baptize all Nations" meant baptize those all over the world. How do we understant it as being all ages? Also the main arguement Baptists use is the many scriptures that say"repent and be baptized" and Jesus saying at the great Commisson "Go and make diciples baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? On each of these verses its beleive and baptize. Is it true that in the original Greek, it was not written that way?? Then why are they not aware of that. I'm sure they would say "yes it is written that way" Aren't Baptist ministers schooled in Greek in Seminary?


I have never been to a Baptist Seminary so I can't tell you if they learn Greek or not. If they did I am surprised that they still use as an English bible the KJV. Baptists see Baptism as something we do and not something God does. It was as another post said, God ordained it so I do it. We in the Lutheran Church baptize because it brings us into the church and bestows upon us the gift of salvation through Christ crucified. Because Christ was crucified, we have our sins forgiven and we have become heirs along with Christ.

We see repentance as a change in direction that has been promulgated by our Baptism. But we must also remember in our hearts to drown the old Adam daily by prayer and petition to God.

[DaRev]

The word "nations" in English Bibles is the word "ethnos" in Greek. It is the root of the word "ethnic" and "ethnicity". It refers to all people. There is no indication whatsoever concerning age or reason or intellect. It simply means "baptize everybody".

Baptists see the verse that says "repent and be baptized" and automatically assume that one must first be able to repent before they can be baptized. Jesus, in the great commission to the Church, says to baptize and teach. The Baptists don't seem to take that word order into consideration when formulating their doctrine.

Also, many Baptist church bodies don't require any training above a Bachelors degree for ordination, and usually that simply includes Biblical studies but not necessarily original language study. In order to be called and ordained in the Lutheran Church one must have a working knowledge of at least New Testament Greek in order to be certified for ordination.

[Radiata]

Here's my own take on it. It actually doesn't involve scripture though.

The Roman Catholic Church has been baptizing infants since it's creation, all the way back to when St. Peter was in command. We are safe to assume that Peter knew what he was doing when he baptised infants right? Peter was actually with Jesus, and Jesus Himself appointed him as head of His church. This leads me to think that Peter was right in his ways of the sacraments and we should follow his example.

[Radiata]

The word "nations" in English Bibles is the word "ethnos" in Greek. It is the root of the word "ethnic" and "ethnicity". It refers to all people. There is no indication whatsoever concerning age or reason or intellect. It simply means "baptize everybody".

Baptists see the verse that says "repent and be baptized" and automatically assume that one must first be able to repent before they can be baptized. Jesus, in the great commission to the Church, says to baptize and teach. The Baptists don't seem to take that word order into consideration when formulating their doctrine.

Also, many Baptist church bodies don't require any training above a Bachelors degree for ordination, and usually that simply includes Biblical studies but not necessarily original language study. In order to be called and ordained in the Lutheran Church one must have a working knowledge of at least New Testament Greek in order to be certified for ordination.
Plus the fact that women and children were not counted among the multitudes.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Baptism conveys the grace of God, especially to those who cannot intelligibly resist. See Gal 3:28, 1 Pet 3:20-21, and Acts 2:38-39

And who are we to deny the great gift of God's grace to our most precious little ones? Withholding salvation from our children is one of the great shameful heresies of Christendom.