Catholics believed Israel would once again become a nation before 1948.

[ContraMundum]

I heard something interesting, though......that they were like the only religious group at the time who believed that God would restore Israel as a nation, and who prayed for the Jewish nation to come to belief in Yeshua.

Oddly enough, so did the Catholics. :crossrc:

The Puritans did have some lights though. I like Richard Baxter's work.

[Ivy]

Oddly enough, so did the Catholics. :crossrc:

The Puritans did have some lights though. I like Richard Baxter's work.


Learn something new every day....I didn't know the Catholics did. Another of my prejudices done for. :)

[visionary]

Oddly enough, so did the Catholics. :crossrc:

The Puritans did have some lights though. I like Richard Baxter's work.They did??:confused: :scratch: where??where??:help:

[christinepro]

Yeah, I think it's pretty much the strongest argument around. I don't think the pagan-copycat theories are anything other than the remnants of the Puritans not purged out of the Gentile church. Hmmm!:confused:

[ContraMundum]

They did??:confused: :scratch: where??where??:help:

I quoted Thomas Aquinas on the other thread, and few others- and the more one looks into it the more pleasant suprises one finds about this.

Actually, Catholic theology is rife with references to the restoration of Israel, and the final conversion of the Jews- which would surprise those influenced by certain Protestant teachers like Dave Hunt etc. For the Catholic take on the Jews and their future role in salvation history etc. check out Salvation is from the Jews (http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com/moresiftj.html) by Roy Shoeman. Although it's written by a layman in plain language, it does a lot to give the perspective of the Roman Catholic church on this topic and dispells an awful lot of myths. It's also a wonderful appraisal of the Jewish people and could save a lot of research work because it's well footnoted. It gives plenty of food for thought and raises good discussion points with Catholic and other traditionalist Christians.

[Ivy]

I've ordered that book. I'll be interested in what he says in the chapter on Jews, Gentiles and the Early Church.

It looks fascinating.

[visionary]

I quoted Thomas Aquinas on the other thread, and few others- and the more one looks into it the more pleasant suprises one finds about this.

Actually, Catholic theology is rife with references to the restoration of Israel, and the final conversion of the Jews- which would surprise those influenced by certain Protestant teachers like Dave Hunt etc. For the Catholic take on the Jews and their future role in salvation history etc. check out Salvation is from the Jews (http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com/moresiftj.html) by Roy Shoeman. Although it's written by a layman in plain language, it does a lot to give the perspective of the Roman Catholic church on this topic and dispells an awful lot of myths. It's also a wonderful appraisal of the Jewish people and could save a lot of research work because it's well footnoted. It gives plenty of food for thought and raises good discussion points with Catholic and other traditionalist Christians.No comment on the contents of the book but....Roy Schoeman, was born in a suburb of New York City of "Conservative" Jewish parents who had fled Nazi Germany. His book is a modern take on this issue. It is well within the new attitude Catholics are being taught towards Jews. It also happened after 1948, that he wrote this book and therefore not a perspective of the Catholic church faith in Israel once again becoming a Jewish nation. Is there some other material of the catholic faith in the Jewish nation again in Israel which is before 1948?

[ContraMundum]

No comment on the contents of the book but....Roy Schoeman, was born in a suburb of New York City of "Conservative" Jewish parents who had fled Nazi Germany. His book is a modern take on this issue. It is well within the new attitude Catholics are being taught towards Jews. It also happened after 1948, that he wrote this book and therefore not a perspective of the Catholic church faith in Israel once again becoming a Jewish nation. Is there some other material of the catholic faith in the Jewish nation again in Israel which is before 1948?

OK..I understand what you are saying. His book is not really all that modern in the sense that the bulk of the theological notes in it span the course of the centuries. I'm gathering you haven't read it, so that's ok but it sure would help if you had. (Besides, nothing in Catholicism is new- it's always based on the past)

What you want is primary source material easily available. How I can provide you with that over the internet is something I'm going to have to do a lot of Googling for. Most of the works of the best theologians from the RCC are not online. Are you near a good RC library?

[visionary]

No .. not close to any RCC library, I live in a bible belt.

I believe this conversation is something that should be a thread on its own.

[visionary]

Catholic Encyclopedia 1913 edition
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08193a.htmUnder "Israelites"
.... the last statement is ..... The last political struggles to be mentioned are (1) the Jewish revolt against Rome in A. D. 66, which ended in the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70; (2) the rebellion of liar Cochba in A.D. 132 under the Emperor Adrian, who finally transformed Jerusalem into the Roman colony of Ælia Capitolina from which all Jews were banished. Ever since then, the Jews have been scattered in many countries, often persecuted, yet surviving, always hoping in some manner for a future Messias, and generally influenced by the customs, and morals, religious beliefs of the nations among whom they live. ... no comment on the catholic faith of Israel's return to being a nation again. Tried to find anything on "Israel" and it is not even listed in the catholic encyclopedia.

[christinepro]

I quoted Thomas Aquinas on the other thread, and few others- and the more one looks into it the more pleasant suprises one finds about this.

Actually, Catholic theology is rife with references to the restoration of Israel, and the final conversion of the Jews- which would surprise those influenced by certain Protestant teachers like Dave Hunt etc. For the Catholic take on the Jews and their future role in salvation history etc. check out Salvation is from the Jews (http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com/moresiftj.html) by Roy Shoeman. Although it's written by a layman in plain language, it does a lot to give the perspective of the Roman Catholic church on this topic and dispells an awful lot of myths. It's also a wonderful appraisal of the Jewish people and could save a lot of research work because it's well footnoted. It gives plenty of food for thought and raises good discussion points with Catholic and other traditionalist Christians. Looks like a good book. Amazing!

[ContraMundum]

... no comment on the catholic faith of Israel's return to being a nation again. Tried to find anything on "Israel" and it is not even listed in the catholic encyclopedia.

Yeah, the online Catholic Encyclopedia is pretty dated and missing heaps of information and lots and lots of subjects. It's ok as a starting place only.

We also should remember that as far as I know the Catholic Church leaves much eschatology as an open question, like most denominations.

[simchat_torah]

I'm allowed to debate here. That's been established for over a year.The thread started in the general section where you're not allowed to debate.
A moderator had to move the thread so you could be allowed to debate.

As far as the rest of your replies to me, they are pretty much meaningless and tripe.

Until you prove that these people are following the anti-Christ by purifying their religious practices, or that they are deceived by Satan we don't have anything to discuss. You tell me to rebut your claims, I ask for proof so that I can rebut your nonsense. I've yet received a thing to back up your claims, and I can't quite hardly prove a negative.

So until there is something for me to rebut, I kindly return this thread over to you... I only ask that you stop with the horrendous accusations against people who worship G-d in their own way. If you disagree, so be it. I only ask that you don't belittle with your words. Talk about the subject, not the people.

I ask nothing more.

[Tonks]

I think that you're misreading Aquinas...I'm assuming that you're referencing his Commentary on Romans.

In terms of "national sovereignty" for Israel (not the nation state) it is that having accepted Christ, Israel will serve the Gentiles by rekindling their tepid faith, and through their humble service will be considered "the greatest in the kingdom."

None of the Church Fathers - East or West - ever wrote about a national or spiritual restoration of Israel in the manner that you're attempting to imply.

[ETA] Dealing with Aquinas specifically, like other medieval theologians of his day, accepted the supersessionism theory as a “given,” yet Aquinas also held to a future salvation of the Jews. Aquinas attempted to deal with the “dualities” of this view.

[SisterKatie]

Shalom everyone :wave:

I read Roy Shoeman's book: "Salvation is from the Jews".. its awesome.. Highly recommendable.. Oh.. I read it sitting on the steps of the Church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem and through this book I understood so many things about salvationhistory that I had often wondered about. Halleluja :D
The way G-d works these years to show the Jews whom Yeshua really is is just extraordinary.. because of the great intellect of the Jewish people they have to be helped in a special way... ;)
By the way, I also love the testimonies of David and Rosalind Moss ..

Oh and.. ContraMundum.. you might enjoy this webpage: www.catholicsforisrael.com (http://www.catholicsforisrael.com)

[christinepro]

Shalom everyone :wave:

I read Roy Shoeman's book: "Salvation is from the Jews".. its awesome.. Highly recommendable.. Oh.. I read it sitting on the steps of the Church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem and through this book I understood so many things about salvationhistory that I had often wondered about. Halleluja :D
The way G-d works these years to show the Jews whom Yeshua really is is just extraordinary.. because of the great intellect of the Jewish people they have to be helped in a special way... ;)
By the way, I also love the testimonies of David and Rosalind Moss ..

Oh and.. ContraMundum.. you might enjoy this webpage: www.catholicsforisrael.com (http://www.catholicsforisrael.com)
Cool website! Thanks. I forwarded it to my Catholic Uncle. I'm sure he will like it.

[Tonks]

Um...no one has provided evidence as to where this ridiculous assertion has come from. This is proof-texting of the worst kind, frankly.

[CatholicFlame]

Maybe I am misunderstanding the topic of this thread but I would not be surprised if Catholics believed that the Jewish people would come to accept Christ towards the end of time. Scripturally, it holds great weight.

St. Paul says: That the natural olive branch would be restored and that refers to Israel. I wish I could quote the verse but I don't have it memorized. Sorry about that. Maybe someone with a better memory than me can tell us wher eto find these passages in the scriptures.

And although I don't know how long we were doing it, Catholics have been praying for the Jewish people to embrace Jesus for a looong time. We used to pray that during every mass before vatican II.

[CatholicFlame]

Sister Katie, that is an awesome website.

I especially like the way tath the authors offer the choice of Catholicism to other believers here in this link.

http://www.israelcatholic.com/content/view/52/98/lang,en/

this article really puts us in perspective with someone who is coming from another faith into the Catholic Church. I also liked the ten good reasons to become catholic:

http://www.israelcatholic.com/content/view/52/98/1/2/lang,en/

this website is a blessing for all of us here

[Ivy]

Shalom everyone :wave:

I read Roy Shoeman's book: "Salvation is from the Jews".. its awesome.. Highly recommendable.. Oh.. I read it sitting on the steps of the Church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem and through this book I understood so many things about salvationhistory that I had often wondered about. Halleluja :D


I just got that book from Amazon today; it looks great! I'll probably devour it over the weekend.

[CatholicFlame]

Hi Ivy, I would like to hear how the book is after get going with it.

Thanks!

[Ivy]

Hi Ivy, I would like to hear how the book is after get going with it.

Thanks!

:thumbsup: You betcha.

Have a great weekend. :)

[SisterKatie]

Yeah Ivy..
I wanna know what you think too after you read it.
I was greatly educated through reading it and I finally understood the answer to one of the most used arguments against the God of the OT.. He can seem very harsh in his dealings with people and whole armies and nations.. and I knew there must be one sole motive for it which had to be LOVE.. because such is our Lord.. but still I could not wholly understand how that love could correspond to what I was sometimes reading in the Old Testament.. untill I read Roy's book.. Halleluja..

It also equipped me with some answers.. Like one time I was sitting in a park in Jerusalem and this young man came up to me. He would like to have a date.. what he got though was a lesson on the Messianicism of Yeshua:) He said: "well.. dont you know the main nazi-symbol was a the christian cross?" My eyes were wide open.. I told him not only that this was not so, but also where the symbol came from and what Hitlers beliefs actually were... much of it I had just read in Roy's book.. It was the providenc of God:) Halleluja..


Great CatholicFlame
I am happy you like it.. this page was made by one of my really good friends that I told you about.. André.. He is a wonderful powerful apostle among the Jews.

God bless you.
Shalom :wave:

[CatholicFlame]

Wow praise the Lord, I did not know that you knew the maker of the site!

Tell Him it is great!

[Ivy]

Yeah Ivy..
I wanna know what you think too after you read it.


I ended up not feeling so well over the weekend.......still not quite up to snuff :sick: , so needless to say I haven't read the book yet. But it looks wonderful.