what is that they are promoting deeper fellow junk?

[rockytrails]

It sounds unionistic is it?

i mean they even Got a catholic priest their for Guidance of all things.

What do they want lutherans to do eat dinner with him or what?

Why would they place that stuff even near a confessional lutheran site.

[RadMan]

What are you referring to?

[rockytrails]

this web page

http://christianforums.com/f367

[DaRev]

this web page

http://christianforums.com/f367

That's the TCL page.

[maylor]

I think rockytrails may be refering to this:

Deeper Fellowship (http://christianforums.com/f136-deeper-fellowship.html)
Fellowship with Christians from other denominations in this Interdenominational Ecumenical Christian fellowship forum.

[RadMan]

OK well I just wish people would be more specific about what they are referring to. I'm not good at guessing games.

[PreachersWife2004]

That's generic to all the congregational forums, actually.

Remember, CF's mission was "uniting all Christians" or some such nonsense.

We all know that something like that ain't gonna happen until we get to heaven.

[Jim47]

Remember, CF's mission was "uniting all Christians" or some such nonsense.





I sure hope we don't go back to that as our slogan :doh:

[RadMan]

I don't know about fellowship but uniting us in politics wouldn't be a bad idea.

[PreachersWife2004]

I sure hope we don't go back to that as our slogan :doh:

I remember right after 7-7-7 I was gonna ask you how it felt to be a part of the ecumenical team...and then I realized it wasn't really a statement on anything, it was just called ecumenical because it was all the congregations.

And yeah, I hope we don't go back to that slogan, either.

I don't think we'll ever be united in politics, either. I know of some very "staunch" Lutherans who are pro-choice. I can't ever unite with them politically until they're not pro-choice anymore - and that won't happen anytime soon...

[filosofer]

I don't know about fellowship but uniting us in politics wouldn't be a bad idea.

Politics is not a "safe" area either. With Lutheran understanding of the two kingdoms, most Protestants wouldn't understand or accept stances on political issues. As with Luther, I would prefer a competent Turk (Muslim) than an incompetent Christian for a political ruler.

[DaRev]

I don't think we'll ever be united in politics, either. I know of some very "staunch" Lutherans who are pro-choice. I can't ever unite with them politically until they're not pro-choice anymore - and that won't happen anytime soon...

Personally, I don't know how anyone can claim to be a Christian and be pro-choice. :doh:

[PreachersWife2004]

Personally, I don't know how anyone can claim to be a Christian and be pro-choice. :doh:

Yeah, I call it the Big Lie. Because really, you can't be both without compromising part of your Christianity. Either life is sacred or it isn't.

[vle045]

Yeah, I call it the Big Lie. Because really, you can't be both without compromising part of your Christianity. Either life is sacred or it isn't.
To play "devil's advocate" for a moment...

"Pro-choice", for some people, is not the same as pro-abortion. It is sometimes simply saying that they will allow others to make their own decisions and let their own conscience be their guide. It is also not saying that they condone it or promote it. But possibly simply would rather have women be in front of a doctor as opposed to in an alley if they are going to do it one way or the other.

Some people who are pro-choice would never do it themselves, would never suggest that others do it themselves.

I don't think that makes them less of a Christian.

[Jim47]

Life begins at conception

Ps 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Ps 51:6 Surely you desire truth in the inner parts;
you teach me wisdom in the inmost place.

Anyone who believes that choice is their right is ignoring what God tells us in His word.

We may be able to fool ourselves but we can't justify abortion to The Lord.

[PreachersWife2004]

To play "devil's advocate" for a moment...

"Pro-choice", for some people, is not the same as pro-abortion. It is sometimes simply saying that they will allow others to make their own decisions and let their own conscience be their guide. It is also not saying that they condone it or promote it. But possibly simply would rather have women be in front of a doctor as opposed to in an alley if they are going to do it one way or the other.

Some people who are pro-choice would never do it themselves, would never suggest that others do it themselves.

I don't think that makes them less of a Christian.

Nope, still a cop-out.

That's like saying "I'd never murder anyone, but it's that person's decision if they want to go out and murder someone." or

"I'd never steal from someone, but I'm not going to judge someone who does."

There is never a good reason for an abortion. NEVER. I'm adopted, I've given up a child for adoption and I've been faced with making the decision of not aborting versus losing my life. Hmmm...I'm still here, so apparently not abortion didn't kill me.

When we listen to the kind of logic that is posted above, we put our lives in someone else's hands other than God's. We put our trust in someone else (namely ourselves) rather than God. Being told that if I didn't have an abortion I would die was probably the hardest thing I have ever heard. And yes, in my sinful nature, I thought about what it would like to have an abortion. And in that moment I knew that I had let Satan win a round. And I felt HORRIBLE. I prayed and I prayed and I prayed, and what I got was this:

Romans 8:31-39
What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all-how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died-more than that, who was raised to life-is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I knew in that moment that I had to put my life in GOD'S hands, not mine. And I knew that abortion was not the answer. Even had I died, I was in God's hands.

And ever since then, I have never ever said "I'm pro-life but I'm pro-choice" again, because I realized you can't be both. You can't say "I wouldn't make that decision but I'm not going to judge the woman that does."

Jesus would've never said that - why should we.

[vle045]

Nope, still a cop-out.

That's like saying "I'd never murder anyone, but it's that person's decision if they want to go out and murder someone." or

"I'd never steal from someone, but I'm not going to judge someone who does."

There is never a good reason for an abortion. NEVER. I'm adopted, I've given up a child for adoption and I've been faced with making the decision of not aborting versus losing my life. Hmmm...I'm still here, so apparently not abortion didn't kill me.

When we listen to the kind of logic that is posted above, we put our lives in someone else's hands other than God's. We put our trust in someone else (namely ourselves) rather than God. Being told that if I didn't have an abortion I would die was probably the hardest thing I have ever heard. And yes, in my sinful nature, I thought about what it would like to have an abortion. And in that moment I knew that I had let Satan win a round. And I felt HORRIBLE. I prayed and I prayed and I prayed, and what I got was this:

Romans 8:31-39
What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all-how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died-more than that, who was raised to life-is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I knew in that moment that I had to put my life in GOD'S hands, not mine. And I knew that abortion was not the answer. Even had I died, I was in God's hands.

And ever since then, I have never ever said "I'm pro-life but I'm pro-choice" again, because I realized you can't be both. You can't say "I wouldn't make that decision but I'm not going to judge the woman that does."

Jesus would've never said that - why should we.
Please do not misunderstand me... as you have already misunderstood.

I am not saying whether it is right or wrong. And personal stories are just that... personal. You made your decision based on what was right for you, within your personal life, faith, beliefs, etc. There is nothing wrong with that.

I just wouldn't call someone less Christian for not being pro-life.

[DaSeminarian]

I remember right after 7-7-7 I was gonna ask you how it felt to be a part of the ecumenical team...and then I realized it wasn't really a statement on anything, it was just called ecumenical because it was all the congregations.

And yeah, I hope we don't go back to that slogan, either.

I don't think we'll ever be united in politics, either. I know of some very "staunch" Lutherans who are pro-choice. I can't ever unite with them politically until they're not pro-choice anymore - and that won't happen anytime soon...


I have a hard enough time uniting with those who think Santa Claus is a bad idea.

[PreachersWife2004]

I have a hard enough time uniting with those who think Santa Claus is a bad idea.

^_^ A month ago I got involved in a thread about Santa Claus that was waaaaay over the top. I was told that my husband and I lacked discernment - oh wait, that was the halloween thread. No, in the Santa Claus thread I was told that I was a liar for letting my children believe in Santa, I was told that I was doing my children no favors by letting them think anything good of SATAN (the anagram of Santa).

So I totally hear what you're saying.

[PreachersWife2004]

Please do not misunderstand me... as you have already misunderstood.

I am not saying whether it is right or wrong. And personal stories are just that... personal. You made your decision based on what was right for you, within your personal life, faith, beliefs, etc. There is nothing wrong with that.

I just wouldn't call someone less Christian for not being pro-life.

First of all, it would be very hard to misunderstand this last sentence. You wouldn't call someone less Christian for not being pro-life. I'd call someone totally NOT Christian for not being pro-life.

Abortion is wrong. There is no gray area in the matter. God's word tells us this, not personal experiences.

I choose to trust in God rather than myself.

And, I've derailed this thread quite a bit already.

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Personally, I do not believe that a person can be a Politician and a Christian at the same time. You can not serve two masters; impossible in politics unless you don't want to be there for long.

Lawyers are similar; one whom I know worked for years as a criminal defense lawyer, now he is a Crown Attorney (like a D. A.). Claimed to be a Christian, yet admitted to defending (and often winning) for defendants he knew were guilty because it was his job. His job is still to win, often using rhetoric and emotion on juries.

I find it hard to have respect for either of these professions, yet it is our original sin necessitates them. We need someone to make laws, and people to enforce them. It's the same sinful nature that makes them both want to win at any cost.:sigh:

Mark

[maylor]

Well, different churches views of abortion is something that divides and gets in the way of "deeper fellowship".

From the WELS This We Believe, (I can't see myself having fellowship with a church that has a stand contrary to this):

We believe, for example, that the Fifth Commandment teaches that all human life is a gift from God. This commandment speaks against abortion, suicide, and euthanasia (“mercy killing”).

[Protoevangel]

vle045,

OK, what if someone personally believed it was wrong to kill children until the children reach adulthood, but "will allow others to make their own decisions and let their own conscience be their guide"?

They would never do it themselves, they would never suggest that others do it themselves.

Would you then question whether that person were really Christian as they claimed?

Just curious.

[DaRev]

Well, different churches views of abortion is something that divides and gets in the way of "deeper fellowship".

From the WELS This We Believe, (I can't see myself having fellowship with a church that has a stand contrary to this):

We believe, for example, that the Fifth Commandment teaches that all human life is a gift from God. This commandment speaks against abortion, suicide, and euthanasia (“mercy killing”).

The LCMS agrees with this.

[mrshoperose]

Well, different churches views of abortion is something that divides and gets in the way of "deeper fellowship".

From the WELS This We Believe, (I can't see myself having fellowship with a church that has a stand contrary to this):

We believe, for example, that the Fifth Commandment teaches that all human life is a gift from God. This commandment speaks against abortion, suicide, and euthanasia (“mercy killing”).
Does that include the death sentence?

[maylor]

MarkRohfrietsch,

I know what you mean about lawyers. I sat as a juror on a child molestation case, the defendant was guilty. Every time I looked at the defense attorney, I thought to myself "you better quit your job and repent or your goin' to hell..." He even cried during his closing remarks to try and win over our sympathy for the creep defendant!

Personally, I do not believe that a person can be a Politician and a Christian at the same time. You can not serve two masters; impossible in politics unless you don't want to be there for long.

Lawyers are similar; one whom I know worked for years as a criminal defense lawyer, now he is a Crown Attorney (like a D. A.). Claimed to be a Christian, yet admitted to defending (and often winning) for defendants he knew were guilty because it was his job. His job is still to win, often using rhetoric and emotion on juries.

I find it hard to have respect for either of these professions, yet it is our original sin necessitates them. We need someone to make laws, and people to enforce them. It's the same sinful nature that makes them both want to win at any cost.:sigh:

Mark

[maylor]

Does that include the death sentence?

I don't know the WELS position on the Death Penalty. I'm thinkin' they they don't have one.

[Tofferer]

Faith and politics go together no matter how you try to deny it. The simple fact is that you will vote based upon what you believe.

As for abortion, it really is a form of pre-meditated murder. There are no two ways around this one. Human life is just that, human life. Doesn't matter if the unborn was just conceived five minutes ago or is five days from birth, they are a living human being.

As for the death penalty, that is a different issue altogether. Generally the death penalty is only issued in those instances in which a given offender is considered likely to kill again. Likewise, it is generally considered as a last resort, when all other options have been exhausted. Of course I am also well aware that the Bible prescribes the death penalty when a man takes the life of another man (have we become too lenient in that regard?)

[Jim47]

Does that include the death sentence?


No, God gives government the right to take life from law breakers and administer justice.

Ro 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Ro 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Ro 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Ro 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

[porterross]

At the same time, unless a convicted murderer is proven guilty without a shadow of doubt or with a solid, undeniable confession, I have hard time stomaching that innocent people have been executed by the authorities and that it might likely happen again. :(

[PreachersWife2004]

At the same time, unless a convicted murderer is proven guilty without a shadow of doubt or with a solid, undeniable confession, I have hard time stomaching that innocent people have been executed by the authorities and that it might likely happen again. :(

Although I agree with the death penalty, I also agree with you here. I guess it's partly why I'm glad I live in a state that does not allow the death penalty.

The reason we can believe in the death penalty is because the death penalty takes the life away from someone who has already taken a life needlessly.

Here is part of the WELS stance on the death penalty:

The government's authority to dispense the death penalty is predicated on justice. We are introduced to the prospect of capital punishment in Genesis 9:6. There the especially grievous act of taking a human life is penalized by the forfeiture of the life of the murderer. Yet, so concerned was God for the unjust taking of human life, even by the governing authorities, that He established "cities of refuge" (see Joshua 21) for those who erroneously caused a death.

[Jim47]

At the same time, unless a convicted murderer is proven guilty without a shadow of doubt or with a solid, undeniable confession, I have hard time stomaching that innocent people have been executed by the authorities and that it might likely happen again. :(


I agree whole heartedly. We talked about this in bible class a bit tonight. The whole problem is we live in a sinful world where even the lawyers and prosecution will distort or withhold truth. But still there are cases where its quite clear that they are guity.

I just don't understand how people can committ violant crimes against little children, to me those are the worst, but thats probably my perspective from sinful flesh. :sigh:

[vle045]

vle045,

OK, what if someone personally believed it was wrong to kill children until the children reach adulthood, but "will allow others to make their own decisions and let their own conscience be their guide"?

They would never do it themselves, they would never suggest that others do it themselves.

Would you then question whether that person were really Christian as they claimed?

Just curious.


Now you are just being silly. It's not the same thing.

[vle045]

First of all, it would be very hard to misunderstand this last sentence. You wouldn't call someone less Christian for not being pro-life. I'd call someone totally NOT Christian for not being pro-life.

Abortion is wrong. There is no gray area in the matter. God's word tells us this, not personal experiences.

I choose to trust in God rather than myself.

And, I've derailed this thread quite a bit already.
Again, you misunderstand me. I NEVER said whether it was right or wrong or what the Bible said or any of that. But I also acknowlege that people view this in so many different ways. A pro-choice person simply feels that it is not their place to impose their beliefs on to an entire country. There are far too many variables out there. And there will be people that do it no matter what. Legal or not. A pro-choice person does not necessarily think it is right.

It's more similar to the idea of gun control. If we make it illegal to carry guns no matter what, it's not going to stop criminals finding a way to get them and use them to murder people.

A pro-choice stance is not about saying abortion is right or wrong. It's more of a political stance. A person who is pro-choice is thinking more along the lines of allowing there to be some sort of care involved.

And before anyone goes on a personal attack or anything... notice that I NEVER said that it was right or wrong. I never refuted anything. I simply said that someone who is pro-choice is not always pro-abortion. They are two different things. And I don't think it makes someone NOT CHRISTIAN to be pro-choice. And if it is truly something that God wants to change in that person, it will come in time in their own faith journey. A Christian person does not ever have all the answers nor are they ever right about everything. And I don't think it is fair to say that someone is NOT CHRISTIAN because they don't see all the things that you see.

I am NOT arguing about abortion. I am just arguing about calling someone less Christian.

[DaRev]

I'm not directing this comment at anyone in particular...

The problem, though, is that pro-choice IS most certainly pro-abortion. Plain and simple. For someone to say that they are pro-choice but anti-abortion is a contradiction of terms. That's akin to saying "I'm against the murder of innocent children but I agree that women should have the right to murder innocent children." It's hypocritical.

[vle045]

I'm not directing this comment at anyone in particular...

The problem, though, is that pro-choice IS most certainly pro-abortion. Plain and simple. For someone to say that they are pro-choice but anti-abortion is a contradiction of terms. That's akin to saying "I'm against the murder of innocent children but I agree that women should have the right to murder innocent children." It's hypocritical.
Regardless, it doesn't make someone NOT CHRISTIAN. A Christian person is a believer in Christ. Period. Where they are in that journey and their understandings of the teachings does not alter whether they are Christian. A Christian is a believer in Christ. Simple. There's no degrees or levels or good, better, best.

I am not talking about whether abortion is right or wrong, I am talking about judinging someone's Christianity.

I guess I didn't do a good job of explaining myself. I was NEVER trying to debate abortion.

[porterross]

It's simple. If you don't want to be a parent, don't have sex. That "choice" is easily exercised, but too often ignored.

[DaRev]

Regardless, it doesn't make someone NOT CHRISTIAN. A Christian person is a believer in Christ. Period. Where they are in that journey and their understandings of the teachings does not alter whether they are Christian. A Christian is a believer in Christ. Simple. There's no degrees or levels or good, better, best.

I am not talking about whether abortion is right or wrong, I am talking about judinging someone's Christianity.

I guess I didn't do a good job of explaining myself. I was NEVER trying to debate abortion.

And all I'm saying is that I don't know how a Christian can be pro-choice.

[vle045]

And all I'm saying is that I don't know how a Christian can be pro-choice.
I don't know, but there are plenty.

And some people (Catholics mainly) might say that it's not Christian to be Protestant.

Look, I'm not trying to disagree here. I'm just trying to say that we can not judge what is in someone's heart nor whether they are Christian.

[seajoy]

Now you are just being silly. It's not the same thing.
Dan is never silly about something so serious.

[DaRev]

I don't know, but there are plenty.

And that is truly sad.

[PreachersWife2004]

When someone says they are pro-choice, I think I CAN judge their heart and know that it isn't Christian. Because, like DaRev, I believe that a pro-choice moniker is a euphemism for being pro-abortion. Being pro-abortion is NOT a Christian attribute. Being pro-choice is NOT a Christian attribute.

If I were to say that I wouldn't commit adultery but I don't find fault with those that do, or I wouldn't judge those that do, that is not Christian behavior.

I never thought you were debating abortion, Vle. What I disagree with is the notion that I can't judge someone's heart when they are not acting like Christians. The bible tells us pretty straight forward that that is EXACTLY what we are to do.

The bottom line is that I do not think you can be pro-choice and be Christian. I think to be pro-choice compromises your Christianity.

[Protoevangel]

vle045,

OK, what if someone personally believed it was wrong to kill children until the children reach adulthood, but "will allow others to make their own decisions and let their own conscience be their guide"?

They would never do it themselves, they would never suggest that others do it themselves.

Would you then question whether that person were really Christian as they claimed?

Just curious.
Now you are just being silly. It's not the same thing.
It is EXACTLY the same thing. Murder is murder, no matter how anyone tries to obfuscate it with duplicitous language and smokescreen it with false logic.

[Jim47]

I can agree that someone can request an abortion and still be a Christian, but here lies the danger. God has called it a sin, and when we ignore God's word and tell Him our wishes and desires are more important then His then we denying our faith. The more we do this the weaker our faith becomes. This stands true for all sin, not just abortion.

We must confess our sins, our weaknesses and ask God to help give us true repentance.

While its not for us to judge another by their sins, it is our responcibility to warn others when they live in sin. If we fail to warn them, then we too are guilty according to Luther's large cathesism, and he writes everything as given direction from scripture.

So it our duty to tell others when thet error, and to help them to repent. We do this out of love, not judgement or hatred. But to tell someone that their sin is not so bad is a lie. All sin is punishable and deserves hell.

I only wish I could leave my sinful flesh :sigh:

[RadMan]

Regardless, it doesn't make someone NOT CHRISTIAN. A Christian person is a believer in Christ. Period. Where they are in that journey and their understandings of the teachings does not alter whether they are Christian. A Christian is a believer in Christ. Simple. There's no degrees or levels or good, better, best.

I am not talking about whether abortion is right or wrong, I am talking about judinging someone's Christianity.

I guess I didn't do a good job of explaining myself. I was NEVER trying to debate abortion.Was Hitler a Christian?

[vle045]

I can agree that someone can request an abortion and still be a Christian, but here lies the danger. God has called it a sin, and when we ignore God's word and tell Him our wishes and desires are more important then His then we denying our faith. The more we do this the weaker our faith becomes. This stands true for all sin, not just abortion.

We must confess our sins, our weaknesses and ask God to help give us true repentance.

While its not for us to judge another by their sins, it is our responcibility to warn others when they live in sin. If we fail to warn them, then we too are guilty according to Luther's large cathesism, and he writes everything as given direction from scripture.

So it our duty to tell others when thet error, and to help them to repent. We do this out of love, not judgement or hatred. But to tell someone that their sin is not so bad is a lie. All sin is punishable and deserves hell.

I only wish I could leave my sinful flesh :sigh:
That's kind of what I was getting at.

Possibly along the same lines of judging the action not the person. Like when a parent has to discipline their child, they still LOVE their child... just not the action. And even though the child disobeyed the parent, they still (usually) love their parent. And sometimes they are sorry. And as they grow older and wiser, their views on things change. I know every time I have to scold my son, I still tell him that I love him and I give him a hug. He's still really young and I want him to learn right from wrong AND I want him to feel loved and secure. And even if he REALLY screws up in life, I want him to know that he will always be my son and I will always love him. Even if I do not approve of his actions. And hopefully, if he feels that love and security, he will be sorry for his poor choices and learn to do better next time.

Such is the same with God. We may sin against him (disobey) at times... and we may disagree. But HE alone will give us our punishment that HE feels we deserve. And only HE knows our hearts and why we may make poor choices. And as we grow closer to HIM and understand more and more what HE wants from us, then sometimes our views will change. And whether we are still babies in our faith and don't really understand what HE wants or if we are seasoned veterans and have great understanding of what he wants - we are STILL HIS children (aka Christians)

[Jim47]

I'm not sure if I was clear on this. There is a difference between falling into sin and willful sin. When we neglect the warnings we are given and seek to committ the sin reguardless then we have committed a grave sin. We also put our faith into serious danger. Satan takes every opportunity to tell us "thats Ok, you're just weak and its not so bad". All sin is bad, very bad, willful sin is very dangerous.

As for God punishing us, not so. Jesus took all our punishment upon Himself. We are not punished for our sins, God punished Jesus in our stead.

If we fall from faith, then yes, we are punished eternally, and we are no longer God's children.

[vle045]

I'm not sure if I was clear on this. There is a difference between falling into sin and willful sin. When we neglect the warnings we are given and seek to committ the sin reguardless then we have committed a grave sin. We also put our faith into serious danger. Satan takes every opportunity to tell us "thats Ok, you're just weak and its not so bad". All sin is bad, very bad, willful sin is very dangerous.

As for God punishing us, not so. Jesus took all our punishment upon Himself. We are not punished for our sins, God punished Jesus in our stead.

If we fall from faith, then yes, we are punished eternally, and we are no longer God's children.
And in order for a sin to be "willful" we have to understand that it is a sin and that we are making a conscientious decision to do it anyways. But as long as we are alive - we still have room to learn, grow, and understand and to ask for forgiveness, right? And that "punishment" (meaning whether we ultimately go to heaven or hell) is not decided until the time of our death. Whether we go to heaven or hell, only God knows that. No one among us can determine that. And by calling someone not Christian, we are claiming to know what is in that person's heart and what their fate will be. But we can never really know that, no matter what we think.

[DaRev]

God gave us His law. We know what His law is. Someone who knowingly breaks God's law and is unrepentent is destined for hell. It's in black and white.

While we can't know what's in someone's heart, we certainly can see with our eyes and hear with our ears to know when someone is clearly sinning against God's word. There is no way to justify violating clear commands of God. None.

Christians are held to two commands. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength," and "Love your neighbor as yourself." When one knows the difference but goes against these anyway, we can certainly question their faith.

[vle045]

God gave us His law. We know what His law is. Someone who knowingly breaks God's law and is unrepentent is destined for hell. It's in black and white.

While we can't know what's in someone's heart, we certainly can see with our eyes and hear with our ears to know when someone is clearly sinning against God's word. There is no way to justify violating clear commands of God. None.

Christians are held to two commands. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength," and "Love your neighbor as yourself." When one knows the difference but goes against these anyway, we can certainly question their faith.
Right... and my point is in your words ***Knowingly***.

Just because you know something as true doesn't mean someone else does.

And the other part is ***unrepentant***.

You may see an action and know it's against God's law. The person doing that action may not know it.

At some point in the future they may come to know it the same way that you do. It may take 100 times of hearing something before they know it to be true for whatever reason.

And they may repent the next day or ten years later.

I think it is two different things to judge an action and to judge a person.

How would you feel if someone called you not Christian because of whatever sin you struggle with... knowingly or unknowingly? Perhaps you are lazy or prideful or lust after your neighbor's wife... maybe you give in to one of those sins, for whatever reason. Are you now no longer Christian? Are you less Christian than someone else?

Or is it part of you faith walk... where you have the opportunity to learn and grow... and ask for forgiveness?

And how are we loving our neighbor by judging them and accusing them of not being Christian and not loving God?

[Jim47]

Those who put all their trust in Jesus as their Savior do indeed know that they will be saved. This is a promise from our Savior and The Lord. Its those who are still trying to help in some way on their own to work out their righteousness that are in danger.

What I am talking about is decision theology. This teaching is prevelant in many churches, but its not scriptural. The decision was always God's, not ours. We are by nature creatures of sin and unbelief, natural born enemies of God and COMPLETELY incapable of seeking God on oursleves. Our nature and every inclination is only to seperate oursleves from God and to sin, sin , sin.

The Holy Spirit calles us to faith. Only by His work are we able to come to faith in Christ as our Savior. We simply don't have any desire or ability of ourselves to seek God. Yes! This is quite true and scriptural.

There are many scriptures we could show you, but this will tell you exactly what I have said to be true.


Eph 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
Eph 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
Eph 2:5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Eph 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


The following verse shows the correct teaching of good works. Good works, fruits of the faith are a gift from God, and they flow from a heart of love for their Savior in thankfulness for all His love and sacrifice.

Eph 2:10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

[Protoevangel]

Something seems to be getting confused here. There is a huge gulf between 1) claiming that what is sinful is "ok" (being pro-choice) and 2) falling into sin (the woman who gets an abortion).

We were talking about #1, but sometime after post #43, the subject began to change. Jim's point was important to bring up, so I do not mean to blame, it's just that the subjects seem to have become confused in the following posts.

As far as what we were talking about, those who defend abortion are teaching evil. Plain and simple. Those who continue to teach evil, and do not repent are estranged from the Holy Spirit. Holy Scripture makes this very clear. I believe that the Lutheran confessions back me up on this, as well.

As for this new subject, the woman who gets an abortion may be as much a victim as the child who is murdered. Being complicit in murder is still a sin, and must be repented of. This is often a very delicate situation, and must be handled pastorally.

[PreachersWife2004]

:amen:

Something seems to be getting confused here. There is a huge gulf between 1) claiming that what is sinful is "ok" (being pro-choice) and 2) falling into sin (the woman who gets an abortion).

We were talking about #1, but sometime after post #43, the subject began to change. Jim's point was important to bring up, so I do not mean to blame, it's just that the subjects seem to have become confused in the following posts.

As far as what we were talking about, those who defend abortion are teaching evil. Plain and simple. Those who continue to teach evil, and do not repent are estranged from the Holy Spirit. Holy Scripture makes this very clear. I believe that the Lutheran confessions back me up on this, as well.

As for this new subject, the woman who gets an abortion may be as much a victim as the child who is murdered. Being complicit in murder is still a sin, and must be repented of. This is often a very delicate situation, and must be handled pastorally.

[DaRev]

Something seems to be getting confused here. There is a huge gulf between 1) claiming that what is sinful is "ok" (being pro-choice) and 2) falling into sin (the woman who gets an abortion).

We were talking about #1, but sometime after post #43, the subject began to change. Jim's point was important to bring up, so I do not mean to blame, it's just that the subjects seem to have become confused in the following posts.

As far as what we were talking about, those who defend abortion are teaching evil. Plain and simple. Those who continue to teach evil, and do not repent are estranged from the Holy Spirit. Holy Scripture makes this very clear. I believe that the Lutheran confessions back me up on this, as well.

As for this new subject, the woman who gets an abortion may be as much a victim as the child who is murdered. Being complicit in murder is still a sin, and must be repented of. This is often a very delicate situation, and must be handled pastorally.

You hit the nail on the head here, Dan. :thumbsup: Those who support and defend abortion on demand are "preaching another Gospel" and thus their faith can indeed be questioned.

[PreachersWife2004]

Thanks, guys, for wording it a way that I somehow couldn't!!

[Protoevangel]

Thanks PreachersWife2004 and DaRev. I was afraid that perhaps I was going to far, being a guest in y'alls forum.

I am not trying to debate with our friend vle. But this forum still feels very homey. It's easy to slip back into old habbits. :)

[vle045]

You guys just don't get it... and never will. We will have to agree to disagree because you will only see what you want to see and not consider the larger picture.

1. Pro-choice is not the same as pro-abortion. It is far far more complex than that.

2. It is not our place to judge others unless we too are without sin.

[DaRev]

1. Pro-choice is not the same as pro-abortion. It is far far more complex than that.

Then what is it if it isn't pro-abortion? It has always been about "abortion rights".

2. It is not our place to judge others unless we too are without sin.

We are most certainly called to judge our erring brothers and sisters. It's called applying the Law. It is how they are brought to repentance.

[Jim47]

You guys just don't get it... and never will. We will have to agree to disagree because you will only see what you want to see and not consider the larger picture.

1. Pro-choice is not the same as pro-abortion. It is far far more complex than that.

2. It is not our place to judge others unless we too are without sin.


Show me one place in the bible that supports your opinion and I will agree with you.

Its not what we think is right, its what God has said is right.

[PreachersWife2004]

The term pro-choice is not used in any other way other than to describe someone who supports the right of a woman to choose to end her pregnancy via abortion.

Being pro-choice means someone thinks that it is okay for a woman to choose to end her pregnancy. That means they think abortion is okay.

Substitute abortion with pre-meditated murder. Doesn't sound so great anymore, does it?

Vle, I am wondering. Are you pro-choice? That certainly would explain the strong defense of the term.

The bible directly tells us to judge our fellow believers, right here:

2 Timothy 3:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=3&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness...
[/URL]
and

[URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=17&verse=3&version=31&context=verse"]Luke 17:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=3&verse=15&end_verse=17&version=31&context=context)
So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him..."

and

Matthew 18:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=18&verse=15&version=31&context=verse)
"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you..."

In ALL of these cases, we have to judge someone to be doing something wrong in order to correct them or rebuke them.

Where the bible says we shouldn't judge is in matters where we are being hypocritical. For example, if I'm living with my boyfriend, I can't very well judge the woman who is having premarital sex. I'm not living the life I am preaching to others.



And yeah, Vle, you are right. I will not ever get it. I will never get why a Christian would ever want to say that it is a woman's RIGHT to have her pregnancy terminated. Why a Christian would ever say that it is okay to CHOOSE to end a life. That will NEVER make sense to me.

We put people like Wayne Gacy and Jeffrey Dahmer in prison for taking the lives of children, yet we sit and say that there is nothing wrong with the taking of millions of unborn babies' lives.

I will never get it.

[vle045]

[quote=DaRev;42401329]Then what is it if it isn't pro-abortion? It has always been about "abortion rights".


It's about what the government has the authority to do. It's about providing medical care. The whole court case was not just about that one thing. It's about rights to medical care and privacy and a whole bunch of other things. There is too much tangled up there for it to be brought to one simple conclusion. You can look at something in two separate ways... politically and morally. It's messy and ugly, but there is no other happy solution... at least not one that someone has been able to come up with. Is there a way to take those unwanted fetuses and implant them elsewhere until they are ready to be born? Will there be adoptive homes for those kids?

And is the alternative any better? Desperate women who flee the country, kill themselves, or a whole host of other possible outcomes? Those are all very scary too. Shall we really say, hey you all have to follow this law and if you want to risk your own life and do otherwise, you are on your own? Go ahead and bleed to death in a alley?

I just have never seen a reasonable alternative that does not place more emphasis on one group's life over the other. Either way, people will die. Maybe fewer babies will die, but maybe more women will die. Is that better?

There is not an easy answer. It is not as simple as relating it to murdering an already living person.

Banning it and going back to the way it was is not a solution. It's still a problem.

But if somoene could tell me that there was a better solution, like another way for the babies to live with the pregnancy removed from the mother... and an adoptive home for them, I'd be all over that. Because that truly solves the issue in favor of everyone.

But whether you make it legal or illegal, someone is going to lose either way. Sure, adoption is definitely an alternative for women... But some women also just can not reconcile themselves with being pregnant. And I can not begin to understand all the reasons. Some are selfish, I am sure... but not all of them.

It's just an ugly ugly situation. There are no winners. And the government had to chose what role they should play in it... And I am sure it was not an easy decision. But they chose one that was the least chaotic (if that's possible) Would you really want to loose your daughther or sister or cousin because she was so scared of being pregnant, and the only alternative she thought she had was to drink a gallon of poison or something crazy like that?

It's just not so cut and dry as we WANT it to be.

[DaRev]

If women don't want to be pregnant, they should keep their pants on. That would solve a huge part of it.

I am greatly disturned at your choice of words here: "It is not as simple as relating it to murdering an already living person." You don't consider a living fetus "an already living person"?? God considers him or her an already living person. Life begins at conception, not at birth. This is in the Scriptures, the very word of God that is the Church's source and norm of teaching and practice.

If abortion on demand were taken off the table it would force the creation of other solutions. There are hundreds of couples who want to adopt. If abortion was outlawed it would facilitate the medical researchers to develope a method of fetal transplant. There are a host of alternatives other than the genocide of innocent human lives.

I have no problem with a woman choosing what she wants to do with her own body. But that does not give her the right to end another human life just because she's inconvenienced. That is murder, pure and simple. There is no way to argue around it.

[Jim47]

If the woman had a strong faith and was close to God she wouldn't be taking risks if getting herself pregnat in the first place. Adultry is a sin, just as is trying to get rid of the evidence. The taking of an innocent life is never justifed simpley because the mother may not want the child and the problems that go with an unwanted pregantcy.

Ad Rev said, there are other solutions. Give the child up for adoption.

[DaSeminarian]

Then what is it if it isn't pro-abortion? It has always been about "abortion rights".


It's about what the government has the authority to do. It's about providing medical care. The whole court case was not just about that one thing. It's about rights to medical care and privacy and a whole bunch of other things. There is too much tangled up there for it to be brought to one simple conclusion. You can look at something in two separate ways... politically and morally. It's messy and ugly, but there is no other happy solution... at least not one that someone has been able to come up with. Is there a way to take those unwanted fetuses and implant them elsewhere until they are ready to be born? Will there be adoptive homes for those kids?

And is the alternative any better? Desperate women who flee the country, kill themselves, or a whole host of other possible outcomes? Those are all very scary too. Shall we really say, hey you all have to follow this law and if you want to risk your own life and do otherwise, you are on your own? Go ahead and bleed to death in a alley?

I just have never seen a reasonable alternative that does not place more emphasis on one group's life over the other. Either way, people will die. Maybe fewer babies will die, but maybe more women will die. Is that better?

There is not an easy answer. It is not as simple as relating it to murdering an already living person.

Banning it and going back to the way it was is not a solution. It's still a problem.

But if somoene could tell me that there was a better solution, like another way for the babies to live with the pregnancy removed from the mother... and an adoptive home for them, I'd be all over that. Because that truly solves the issue in favor of everyone.

But whether you make it legal or illegal, someone is going to lose either way. Sure, adoption is definitely an alternative for women... But some women also just can not reconcile themselves with being pregnant. And I can not begin to understand all the reasons. Some are selfish, I am sure... but not all of them.

It's just an ugly ugly situation. There are no winners. And the government had to chose what role they should play in it... And I am sure it was not an easy decision. But they chose one that was the least chaotic (if that's possible) Would you really want to loose your daughther or sister or cousin because she was so scared of being pregnant, and the only alternative she thought she had was to drink a gallon of poison or something crazy like that?

It's just not so cut and dry as we WANT it to be.

I'm sorry but I think you are wrong. I agree with DaRev on this issue. We live in a sinful world and there is not a lot of justice sometimes. Abortion is Murder. It always has been and always will be.

[WildStrawberry]

<snip>And is the alternative any better? Desperate women who flee the country, kill themselves, or a whole host of other possible outcomes? Those are all very scary too. Shall we really say, hey you all have to follow this law and if you want to risk your own life and do otherwise, you are on your own? Go ahead and bleed to death in a alley?

I just have never seen a reasonable alternative that does not place more emphasis on one group's life over the other. Either way, people will die. Maybe fewer babies will die, but maybe more women will die. Is that better?

Less than 1/2 of 1 percent of abortions are done because of the reasons "pro-choice" people state. These being: rape, incest, mother's life in danger...etc.

Why should fleeing the country or going into back alleys be the alternative to abortion on demand? Why can't everyone, Choice and Life, get together and decide that they are going to make a difference, to love the woman and the child no matter what, to educate those who are too young to decide for themselves and to offer hope for those who find themselves in these situations.? We as a nation have failed these women. How unloving it is to give them abortion on demand instead of hope, caring, love.

There is not an easy answer. It is not as simple as relating it to murdering an already living person.I'm going to assume that you mean "living person" as an ex utero human being. As an adopted person who had a birth mother ready to abort her because her mother said she'd take both myself and my older birth sister away, and who realized that adoption really was a better choice...let me tell you, I WAS an already living person in the womb. I had possibilities from the moment that sperm met the egg. These possibilities are being realized day after day as I live the life that God graciously gave me through the "accident" of my conception.

Let me ask you, what is the difference between a fetus and an in utero baby? The in utero baby is wanted. There is no other difference than that. It's only when a person has to make themselves believe that the living breathing child they carry inside of them is just a "mass of cells" so they don't feel guilty over aborting, that the distinction is made.

But whether you make it legal or illegal, someone is going to lose either way. Sure, adoption is definitely an alternative for women... But some women also just can not reconcile themselves with being pregnant. And I can not begin to understand all the reasons. Some are selfish, I am sure... but not all of them.Again, less than 1/2 of 1 percent of abortions are done because of extenuating circumstances. All other abortions are done because the women (and sometimes the men who are involved) are inconvenienced because of the pregnancy. They don't want to be pregnant because it doesn't suit their lifestyle or whatever. Whether or not you can "reconcile [yourself] to being pregnant" shouldn't matter. It's called responsibility. Let me say that again...it's called RESPONSIBILITY. If you're going to "do the crime" you ought to understand that you've got to "do the time". It's what is wrong with America today. People have a sense of entitlement to keep from being inconvenienced. They don't want to take responsibility for their actions. They'd much rather push it to the side or make someone else deal with it. Or get rid of it all together.

Would you really want to loose your daughther or sister or cousin because she was so scared of being pregnant, and the only alternative she thought she had was to drink a gallon of poison or something crazy like that?I wouldn't lose my daughter, sister, cousin, friend because of that. I would HOPE that they would know how much I love them and how much I would stand beside them and be there for them no matter what happens. This is where women are failed. This is where we as a country need to get off our collective mules and MAKE the changes.

DaRev said that there are hundreds of couples looking to adopt. I'd have to correct him and say that there are THOUSANDS. Why do you think that overseas adoptions are so common? Because so many pregnancies are ending in death through the murderous practice of abortion. Every single one of the people I've come in contact with through my Adoption support group/Lutheran Social Services that has adopted from overseas has said that they originally tried here in the States but could NOT adopt because of the dearth of babies. (we won't even go into the older children needing adopting.)

So yes, there would be families out there for these children. Abortion is not the way. Love and respect and caring and help is the way.

Kae

[DaRev]

Another problem I have with the pro-choice platform is that they are so overly concerned about the woman and not at all concerned about the innocent infant life. THAT is one of the major problems with this issue.

[RadMan]

You guys just don't get it... and never will. We will have to agree to disagree because you will only see what you want to see and not consider the larger picture.

1. Pro-choice is not the same as pro-abortion. It is far far more complex than that.

2. It is not our place to judge others unless we too are without sin.

Would you have aborted you son if he had had Downs Syndrome, AIDS, Childhood Alcoholic Syndrome, accident in the birthing process that would have caused drug syndrome, anomaly in the DNA or a defect from delivery procedure? You're pro-choice, that would be your right, correct? If you wouldn't have made the choice and would have lived with that child the rest of your life and loved them then what would you say to a lady that wanted to abort her fetus because of the child's disabilities?

Then after he was born would you euthanize him because you couldn't "handle" it anymore or maybe a boyfriend would say "I wouldn't marry you because the child is sick"? I mean what's the difference between before he is born or after? Is it just easier to do before they are born because the are just "tissue" ad you wouldn't be traumatized by seeing it face to face? SO you could say that "tissue" is even inconveniencing you after birth and it was part of your body "like cancer" so you have the right to destroy it.

Just because there are abortion laws doesn't mean they are just. It just means they are the law. Justifying that law only makes you a slave to that law.

[PreachersWife2004]

Goodness...it's going to take me awhile to get all these great posts repped!!

Great points!!

[vle045]

but the problem is that not every woman in the united states of america is a Christian. so christian values will not be important to those people... and the government has no place to force christian values on to that person.

Would you like to continue this indefinitely? Or would you like to agree to disagree? You can not see the unfortunate fact that there are too many various issues involved and the fact that the entire country can not be expected to behave in the way that you want them to. And the fact that there is NO PERFECT SOLUTION.

I can not convince you to at least accept that a person CAN be a Christian even if they are not perfect. You want perfection from someone or you will call them unChristian.

I do not expect ANYONE to be perfect. And I will never assume to judege whether they are Christian.

THAT is what I take issue with... accusing someone of not being Christian based on YOUR expectations, experiences and understandings.

There are plenty of others out there that would call you unChristian simply because you are Lutheran. (I am not one of those people.)

This is NOT ABOUT ME OR WHAT I WOULD DO. It's about the whether I would call someone UNCHRISTIAN for not agreeing with me.

Gang up on me all you want for simply offering another point of view. You seem to want to place YOUR VALUES on an entire country of people.

If Lutheranism teaches you to judge other people and call them unChristian if they don't see everything that you do, then I want no part of if.

This is a BIG BIG world. None of us are perfect. We all do the best that we can.

At some point someone said that they can't see how someone can be pro-choice and a Christian. I offered how that could be possible.

You want to latch on to your own views and call anyone who dares to open up their minds to why someone could possibly see something a different way as unchristian.

As for me, I will love all of my friends, family, acquaintances and neighbors whether they are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Wiccan, Jehovah's Witness, Pro-Choice, Pro-Life, Democrat or Republican. I won't always agree with them, but I would NEVER question someone's heart, nor question a Christian's belief in Christ.

No need to try to "correct" me. I have an open heart and and open mind and I will never call my pro-choice neighbors UNCHRISTIAN.

[vle045]

Would you have aborted you son if he had had Downs Syndrome, AIDS, Childhood Alcoholic Syndrome, accident in the birthing process that would have caused drug syndrome, anomaly in the DNA or a defect from delivery procedure? You're pro-choice, that would be your right, correct? If you wouldn't have made the choice and would have lived with that child the rest of your life and loved them then what would you say to a lady that wanted to abort her fetus because of the child's disabilities?

Then after he was born would you euthanize him because you couldn't "handle" it anymore or maybe a boyfriend would say "I wouldn't marry you because the child is sick"? I mean what's the difference between before he is born or after? Is it just easier to do before they are born because the are just "tissue" ad you wouldn't be traumatized by seeing it face to face? SO you could say that "tissue" is even inconveniencing you after birth and it was part of your body "like cancer" so you have the right to destroy it.

Just because there are abortion laws doesn't mean they are just. It just means they are the law. Justifying that law only makes you a slave to that law.
This is not about me, nor what I personally believe.

[vle045]

Another problem I have with the pro-choice platform is that they are so overly concerned about the woman and not at all concerned about the innocent infant life. THAT is one of the major problems with this issue.
there's problems on BOTH sides. People will die either way.

Do you have a better solution?

[vle045]

there is no point in my retuning here. you all have formed a bad opinion of me anyways, even though you don't know me.

It was nice in the beginning...

[PreachersWife2004]

You're defending abortion and you expect to get kudos for it? That's a little presumptious, especially considering this is the more conservative Lutheran forum. Most of the people who post regularly in here are going to argue against abortion. People have brought forth solutions, here and everywhere. Being responsible would be one of them. If you choose to have sex, then you deal with the consequences (or, as I prefer to call them, BLESSINGS). Adoption is definitely an option, and I so wish it was recommended more.

The problem is that abortion is used as birth control. It is used to get rid of unwanted babies. I've had a pregnant woman tell me that she didn't want the PARASITE inside her body. :sick:

When we can't value the life inside our womb, how do we expect people to value life outside of the womb?

[RadMan]

This is not about me, nor what I personally believe.That isn't what you believe?????
You have stated UNCONDITIONALLY what you believe.

[Radiata]

How did we get on Abortion?

Just subscribing.

[PreachersWife2004]

Not sure. I've thought about doing a derail thread, because a good debate on abortion is always needed. I'd have to see what the OP (Rockytrails) thought, though.

[DaRev]

This isn't about Christian values as much as it is about human life, especially innocent human life. Murder is murder, whether one is a Christian, Muslim, Budhist, Athiest, or whatever. That is what our laws should protect and it doesn't.

My statement was simple. I don't understand how a Christian who loves the Lord and all that He teaches us can be in favor of murdering innocent children. The Scriptures say this:

Proverbs 6:16-19, "There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil, A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers."

It's pretty cut and dried.

[Jim47]

I would say its all about Christian values. Who told us that taking another life was wrong?

[seajoy]

You seem to want to place YOUR VALUES on an entire country of people.

You want to latch on to your own views and call anyone who dares to open up their minds to why someone could possibly see something a different way as unchristian.

No need to try to "correct" me. I have an open heart and and open mind and I will never call my pro-choice neighbors UNCHRISTIAN.
These are not our own views, it is God's plan as to what is right and wrong.

Having an open mind does not have any bearing on this situation. It's plain in Scripture, as has been pointed out.

We are happy to answer questions here....though the answers may not always be what you want to hear, I hope you keep coming back anyway.

[maylor]

Not sure. I've thought about doing a derail thread, because a good debate on abortion is always needed. I'd have to see what the OP (Rockytrails) thought, though.

Think we might of scared him away......

[Protoevangel]

there is no point in my retuning here. you all have formed a bad opinion of me anyways, even though you don't know me.

It was nice in the beginning...
I'm sorry you are going away in a huff over this. You obviously believe very strongly in abortion rights. Your increasingly volatile, illogical and non sequitur arguments demonstrate that fact clearly. I hope you will grow to look beyond the politics, and recognize the anti-Christian heinous evil of the abortion industry; disposable children, murdered for convenience and "choice".

If you ever get over your self-exile, I'm sure you will be very welcome back here. I have found the conservative Lutherans to be extremely welcoming to everybody. But I have also found them to be quite ready to defend their doctrine, and Christian values, when they are questioned or denied.

[Tofferer]

Does it not say in the Bible "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you"? Know that vle is gone (though hopefully not for long), but I am curious. If I have misquoted scripture, then that is my shame. Such being the case, I don't see how a Christian can justify being "pro-choice" when is it just a euphenism for being "pro-murder"? Even some of the more honest people I know who profess atheism see an unborn child as a living person. This is indeed sad....

[WildStrawberry]

there is no point in my retuning here. you all have formed a bad opinion of me anyways, even though you don't know me.

It was nice in the beginning...

See, this is what I dislike about debating on the internet. Basically what you're saying is "hey, I can't make a clear and concise argument that's based in facts rather than party/group rhetoric so I'm going to take my toys and go home."

You're also doing what you're accusing us of doing, making a judgment call about our inner feeling/positions rather than actually reading the facts that we've stated and answering the questions that have been put forth to you.

I'd much rather you came back armed with FACTS than for you to go away thinking that we have "bad opinions of [you]". I've followed your posts in other threads and I can honestly say I've not seen anyone show any "bad opinions of [you]". Toward your arguments, toward the way you've "debated" here, sure. But to you personally? I think it's rather unfair of you to say something like this since everyone here has been nothing but cordial to you with exception to this thread. You can't expect to come into a CONSERVATIVE forum and expect that your very very LIBERAL beliefs are going to get a warm welcome. And it's also unfair of you to get mad at us for defending our views and positions. Check out the Constitution...we're ALL granted free speech.

Kae

[vle045]

For the umpteeth time - - I was NOT talking about abortion itself, but about judging others based on that one fact of being pro-choice and calling them UnChristian.

So all the rhetoric about abortion was completely irrelevant. And I tried to explain that I was not arguing that point, but offering the other perspective.

Read the first sentence on my first post on the subject... it started out something to the effect of... to play devil's advocate.... Not meaning the literal "devil" ... but using it in the way where we put on the other hat to see their perspective...

I was calling out the part about judging others....

My references about judging others... (I came back so that I could provide those, since someone asked.)


Matthew 7

Judging Others

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?


Luke 6:36-38 (New International Version)

36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Judging Others

37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."


James 4:11-15 (New International Version)

11Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?




I am sure someone is going to want to go back to making this about whether abortion is right or wrong again because people can not see beyond that word. I don't believe I EVER said it was right or wrong... just that it is ugly on both sides and no one has proposed a solution that solves both sides. And if someone did have a better solution, I'd be all for it.

I can not agree with a blanket statement that someone is not Christian based on being pro-choice (or even an adulterer, theif, fornicator, or any other sinful behaviour). Sure the sin is not a good thing but we shouldn't say "You sinned", now turn in your Christian membership card...." Even with things that we know we continually struggle with and try to reconcile...

I am not talking about liberal vs. conservative, or telling anyone to change their personal views on abortion. Get that out of your head.

I really really do not want to fight with anyone about abortion. I hate the topic because there is no winner on either side. Both sides have good points and bad points. Both sides lose no matter what. There's no winners. Either way people get hurt. It's ugly sticky yucky and very unfortunate.

If we could control the actions of the world and have everyone be happy, that would be hunky dory. But there are atheists and prostitues and rapists and adulterers and people who just don't care about anyone but themselves. It's not good. It's not right. I don't like it... but that's the way it is.

So to those people, God's Law and right and wrong and "keeping your pants on" are just not solutions. And the government can not make people be Christian, or abstain from sex, or any of those other perfect world solutions. (Notice I didn't say they were right or wrong? I suggest it as an explanation of how it can be looked upon when a person chooses to make a pro-choice stand. They often look at it as a question of how much control should the government have rather than the act itself.)

Again, I only offer it as how a Christian person can look at it and arrive at the decision to be pro-choice and at the same time be Christian. I am not arguing for it. I am not defending it. Just that it is possible for a Christian person to arrive at a certain conclusion.

Be pro-Life. Be conservative. That is certainly your right to do so.

And even though I have a comical version in my signature, I do find the Serenity Prayer applicable to life in general.




The Serenity Prayer



http://www.cptryon.org/prayer/special/seren.jpeg
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.



Amen.--Reinhold Niebuhr





I hope I have answered the various questions and accusations...

I did not say it was what I believed. I said it was what a pro-choice Christian believes.

I didn't say I agreed with it. I questioned the practice judging someone as non Christian... for any reason.

My "HUFF" is that it seems like everyone is not able to see past the word abortion and understand that the entire time I am talking about judging others as non-Christian. Insert any other sin in place of abortion and I'd have the same argument.

My position is not about abortion. It is about judging others.

I'll say it again in case it is still not clear... my point is that we should not judge others.

I am not judging your position of being pro-life. I am not questioning God's Law. I am not saying that abortion is ok.

I did throw on the pro-choice hat to really consider how a Christian could go through a thought process and arrive at a pro-choice answer. I can understand it.

Since there is not a perfect solution to satisfy ALL citizens in the USA, we have two losing sides and people are forced to pick one. It divides us as a country, it divides us as Christians, it divides our denominations and parishes across the world.

And judging someone as not Christian does nothing to help the cause. It won't stop abortions, it won't bring people closer to God, it won't impact anyone to change their views. What it will do is it will split us further. It will chase people out of the Church who might otherwise have been able to thrive and grow closer to God and gain more understanding. It will spilt us further into more denominations, branches, synods, atheists and more.

Do you understand yet what I was getting at? Am I that poor of a communicator?

Do you understand yet that I never said you were wrong about abortion? Do you understand yet that my issue is with judging someone as not Christian? I see that as being harmful to them, particularly if they know that you say that. It can make them angry, bitter, and chase them away. Why would they want to come in to fellowship with people who are judinging them?

If you embrace them as your fellow Christian, and lead by example, perhaps they will reach the same understanding that you have at a point that is comfortable for them. Perhaps not. We never know.

I don't know, perhaps I am just wrong about everything. Does that make me un-Christian???

[Protoevangel]

I wonder what it is called when someone picks which verses they are going to believe, and which they are going to ignore?

I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

[DaRev]

And what we are saying is that if someone claims to love the Lord with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength and love their neighbor as themselves, yet believes and supports the slaughter of innocent human lives (something that the Scriptures clearly state is an abomination to God) does need to be confronted with the genuiness of their faith. It's a contradiction of terms. We, as Christians, are indeed called to confront our erring brothers and sisters.

Matthew 18:15-17, "And if your brother sins, go and reprove him in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer."

Ephesians 5:11 "And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them."

I will stand by my earlier statement. I do not understand how a Christian can be pro-choice.

[Protoevangel]

I can not agree with a blanket statement that someone is not Christian based on being pro-choice (or even an adulterer, theif, fornicator, or any other sinful behaviour). Sure the sin is not a good thing but we shouldn't say "You sinned", now turn in your Christian membership card...." Even with things that we know we continually struggle with and try to reconcile...
If someone claims adultery is ok, that stealing is ok, that fornicating is ok, or that any other sinful behavior is ok, then yes, I would question whether they were truly Christian, or a wolf in sheeps clothing.

On the other hand, anyone can fall into sin, whether that be abortion, adultery, theft, fornication, etc. That's why we have repentance, confession and absolution.

Please try to understand the difference between falling into sin, vs. teaching that sin is not sin. Until you learn that difference, you will have a real hard time understanding the conversations in here.

[PreachersWife2004]

Vle, for me it was never a question as to whether you supported abortion or not. You'll recall that I actually asked if you were pro-choice.

For me, it was that you were saying we couldn't and shouldn't judge, when the bible clearly says that we SHOULD and COULD judge, when the actions that one is submitting are not Christian actions. Being pro-choice is not a Christian action. There's no way to sugarcoat it. Just like being pro-adultery or being pro-thievery. People would scoff if someone called themselves pro-adultery, but it's the same principle.

It's not that you are a bad communicator. It's the point you are trying to communicate is going to be lost on conservative, moral Christians who cannot fathom a pro-choice stance.

[seajoy]

Along the lines of what Proto is saying....if a woman has an abortion, and later is sorry for it, and asks for forgiveness from God, that forgiveness is of course granted.

But teaching that abortion is ok, just because a person cares only for their own wants or needs, and totally ignores Scripture, IS living a life of continuous sin and denial of such as being a sin.

It would be sinful for us as Christians not to point this out to that person. Literally sticking our heads in the sand and ignoring it, is not Christian-like behavior.

Also, I know a woman who was engaged, and was raped by another man. Her fiance still married her, and raised the beautiful boy as his very own. I know of another highschool aged girl who was raped, and became pregnant...she and her family have brought up this child in the Christian faith. God can, and does, work in even these most horrible conditions. His power is beyond our comprehention.

[Jim47]

[quote=vle045;42441746]

I really really do not want to fight with anyone about abortion. I hate the topic because there is no winner on either side. Both sides have good points and bad points. Both sides lose no matter what. There's no winners. Either way people get hurt. It's ugly sticky yucky and very unfortunate.





There is a always a winner when someone comes to repentance, whether this be before the abortion or after it.

Lk 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.




If we could control the actions of the world and have everyone be happy, that would be hunky dory. But there are atheists and prostitues and rapists and adulterers and people who just don't care about anyone but themselves. It's not good. It's not right. I don't like it... but that's the way it is.



You're right, we can't control the actions of this world, but we as Christians don't live our lives for earthly pleasures and to see what we can get out of this life. The people who seek only the pleasures of this life will miss out on the life we have been promised in heaven.


1Pe 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
1Pe 1:17 Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.





So to those people, God's Law and right and wrong and "keeping your pants on" are just not solutions. And the government can not make people be Christian, or abstain from sex, or any of those other perfect world solutions. (Notice I didn't say they were right or wrong?




Turning from sin and turning to God is the only solution. Those who do not will only find more sorrow in this life and endless eternal sorrows in the life to come. Our lives here are but brief. Living them in shameless sin and selfish pleasure will reap no rewards except instant gratification. God has witnessed to these people by givng them sexualy transmitted diseases so as to turn them away from this life of sin. Some have listened, many have not.


Jn 17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
"Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.


Again, I only offer it as how a Christian person can look at it and arrive at the decision to be pro-choice and at the same time be Christian. I am not arguing for it. I am not defending it. Just that it is possible for a Christian person to arrive at a certain conclusion.


Anyone who choses to have an abortion has not listened to God, but instead has listened to Satan and have become decieved. Satan will always help us to justify our sinful desires, we have to look no further then him.

But God wants us to live holy and chaste lives, not lives of sin and shame and selfish pleasures.

1Co 6:12 "Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." 17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
1Co 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.





My "HUFF" is that it seems like everyone is not able to see past the word abortion and understand that the entire time I am talking about judging others as non-Christian. Insert any other sin in place of abortion and I'd have the same argument.

My position is not about abortion. It is about judging others.

I'll say it again in case it is still not clear... my point is that we should not judge others.

I am not judging your position of being pro-life. I am not questioning God's Law. I am not saying that abortion is ok.



We've already shown you many scriptures where we are to witness to those who chose a life of sin. This means we have the responcibilty to tell them its wrong and leading them away from God, and His saving grace.

Jas 5:19 My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.





Since there is not a perfect solution to satisfy ALL citizens in the USA, we have two losing sides and people are forced to pick one. It divides us as a country, it divides us as Christians, it divides our denominations and parishes across the world.




There is a perfect solution, and only one, to turn from sin and to seek God's grace, to leave a life in sin and to strive everyday to live a life worthy of the great calling we have recieved.

[rockytrails]

^_^ A month ago I got involved in a thread about Santa Claus that was waaaaay over the top. I was told that my husband and I lacked discernment - oh wait, that was the halloween thread. No, in the Santa Claus thread I was told that I was a liar for letting my children believe in Santa, I was told that I was doing my children no favors by letting them think anything good of SATAN (the anagram of Santa).

So I totally hear what you're saying.


I did not know that any lutheran pastors taught their kids the santa myths as truth.
Rather than blame you for it i would rather ask why?

[PreachersWife2004]

That's because we don't teach the myth as truth. We don't teach myth at all. We just like to have a little bit of fun with Santa. My oldest has known there was no such thing as Santa for as long as he can remember. He still gets one present from Santa, though, for fun. He also gets a present from the dog, one from the cat and one from the fishes.

The issue with Santa Claus is when families put the focus on the wrong person.

[DaRev]

The best way to teach about Santa Claus is to teach kids who St. Nicholas was and what he did.

[PreachersWife2004]

The best way to teach about Santa Claus is to teach kids who St. Nicholas was and what he did.

Precisely. :thumbsup:

[Protoevangel]

Speaking of that, have y'all heard about the movie Nicholas of Myra? It's about the real Saint Nicholas. It is supposed to be released around Christmas.

www.nicholasofmyra-movie.com/