forgiveness

[heal103]

Can someone please explain to me why a pastor can say during prayer in the service "I now forgive you of all of your sins"? The scripture often used to justify that doesn't seem to fit...I just want to understand so I can explain it to others who visit my church. Thanks. You can pm me too if you like.

[RadMan]

"In His stead and by His command I now forgive you all your sins."

[LilLamb219]

It's not the pastor's forgiveness that is being forgiven, but the forgiveness won at the cross by Christ. Christ gives that authority as Radman states above for pastor's to actually give forgiveness.

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The best reference would be found in the Explanation of the Small Catechism; The Office of the Keys, and Confession. The quotes from Scripture support the Church's position 100%. Here is a link. http://www.stpaulskingsville.org/pdf/catechism/confession.pdf

Mark

Note particularily page 5 of 9.

[Tofferer]

If not for the words of Christ, as already alluded to, the church would not have the power to forgive sin.

[DaSeminarian]

Can someone please explain to me why a pastor can say during prayer in the service "I now forgive you of all of your sins"? The scripture often used to justify that doesn't seem to fit...I just want to understand so I can explain it to others who visit my church. Thanks. You can pm me too if you like.


You ask a very good question. The Pastor is not forgiving them of his own merit or ability. We are able to forgive only because of Christ. He gave us the Keys and so as Rad said when the absolution is given it is in the stead and by the command of Christ. It is not the Pastor's forgiveness, but God's forgiveness given through the Pastor.

[BigNorsk]

I think it is best to understand that the pastor is proclaiming God's forgiveness of our sins. It's easy to misunderstand and make the mistake complained about by the Jews in scripture, who can forgive sins except God? (my paraphrase of Luke 5:21)

God does not leave your eternal salvation in the hands of an arbitrary fallible man. The pastor cannot take someone who is confessing and say, well, today, I don't feel like forgiving, your sins are retained.

No, the only valid retention is when someone is hardened and is unwilling to admit then their sin is retained.

It's somewhat like we understand a pastor to be speaking God's word in the pulpit. It's only God's word if it's in accord with God. The pastor can't say let's all get together and worship Baal Tuesday and we say well there the pastor is said to be speaking the word of God so it must be a command to worship Baal on Tuesday.

And so it is with confession and absolution. Confession is really the law, recognizing our sin, pointing out our unworthiness for life, but fittingly we should die. Absolution is the Gospel proclamation. 1 Jn 1:9

Most of us today practice confession and absolution directly with God, and we often corporately confess and receive absolution. Some practice private confession and absolution, this particularly can be the practice in areas where people struggle.

You might here someone say they are meeting with the pastor for counseling but often it's more a confession and absolution, the person often knows what to do, they just need to be strengthened. Or they are so broken from their sinfulness they need to be picked up. The ones that don't want to admit their sinfulness, they generally don't want to meet with the pastor.

And we often use people other than pastors as our confessor and their absolution is as real as if God spoke it himself.

My only regret is that God did not give the keys to dogs, they make such good confessors always proclaiming forgiveness.

Marv

[Edial]

Can someone please explain to me why a pastor can say during prayer in the service "I now forgive you of all of your sins"? The scripture often used to justify that doesn't seem to fit...I just want to understand so I can explain it to others who visit my church. Thanks. You can pm me too if you like.
There is a Green book and a Blue book.
The wording in the Blue book do appear to be conflicting to the Lutheran theology. (I do not have it here, so I cannot refer to it).

The Green book says on p.77: "I therefore declare to you the entire forgiveness of all your sins ..."
or, "... and for his sake God forgives you all your sins".

Pastor declares that what God has done.

Our Pastors are having a difficulty following the Blue book, especially the Assistant Pastor. :)
One could just see him feeling uncomfortable reading this from the Blue book. :):)

Both say about the same thing, but the Green book is much clearer to state that it is God who forgives and the Church who declares that forgiveness.

Thanks, :)
Ed

[BigNorsk]

I don't like that explanation of mine when I read it. Doesn't hang quite right. Doesn't sound like absolution is a real forgiveness which it is. Probably better to say it is the absolution of God pronounced by his command.

I don't think I really like the colored books either, because it sounds like the forgiveness happened somewhere else and you're just being told about it. In one sense I guess that would be true in that we were absolved on the cross, but the application to the individual is at the absolution. what you gave almost sounds how the people who don't believe in sacraments try to explain them, as nothing really, just a memorial of something that took place someplace and sometime else. Which really seems to me to destroy faith, not strengthen it.

Marv

[Edial]

...I don't think I really like the colored books either, because it sounds like the forgiveness happened somewhere else and you're just being told about it. In one sense I guess that would be true in that we were absolved on the cross, but the application to the individual is at the absolution. what you gave almost sounds how the people who don't believe in sacraments try to explain them, as nothing really, just a memorial of something that took place someplace and sometime else. Which really seems to me to destroy faith, not strengthen it.

Marv
But isn't declaration of that what God has done merits absolution on the part of Pastor?

Pastor cannot possibly know the sincerity of one's heart while the congregant reads the confessing part.

One of the clearest example of such an abuse we could see in the "Godfather".
The Priest was absolving criminals that were not repentant.

Pastor's declaration of the forgiveness of sins is really based on the read confession.
And God would forgive those that were sincere in their confession.

I really do not see it any other way.

Thanks,
Ed

[BabyLutheran]

Seems pretty clear cut

He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07409a.htm). 23 Whose sins (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) you shall retain, they are retained

If I am incorrect in my reading of this scripture, please let me know. Seems as if you receive the Holy Spirit, you have the authority.

[BigNorsk]

I don't disagree, in one way our sins were absolved at Calvary. But it's really a bit more than just telling us that God has forgiven us. Just as the sermon is really a bit more than just telling us about God's word.

The absolution we hear is God's absolution, the preaching we hear is God's word. It comes to us through the man, but it's God's as if spoken directly to us by God himself.

It's not a secondary artifact, it's not a telling us that somewhere, not right here, but somewhere there is forgiveness. No, it's real right there and then to be believed. Not just a story about the real forgiveness, real forgiveness.

Marv

[Edial]

Seems pretty clear cut

He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07409a.htm). 23 Whose sins (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) you shall retain, they are retained

If I am incorrect in my reading of this scripture, please let me know. Seems as if you receive the Holy Spirit, you have the authority.
Yes, we all have the authority to forgive sins.

However, we could always be fooled by an insincere confession.

If someone confesses and is insincere and we forgive, will he be forgiven?

Thanks, :)
Ed

[Edial]

I don't disagree, in one way our sins were absolved at Calvary. But it's really a bit more than just telling us that God has forgiven us. Just as the sermon is really a bit more than just telling us about God's word.

The absolution we hear is God's absolution, the preaching we hear is God's word. It comes to us through the man, but it's God's as if spoken directly to us by God himself.

It's not a secondary artifact, it's not a telling us that somewhere, not right here, but somewhere there is forgiveness. No, it's real right there and then to be believed. Not just a story about the real forgiveness, real forgiveness.

Marv
Yes. I would agree.
That is why it is important to go to church and confess and hear these words.

Thanks, :)
Ed

[BabyLutheran]

Oh I get your point now!

I am so trusting, I would take the person's word they are contrite. If they are lying to me about it, that's between them and God.

[Edial]

Oh I get your point now!

I am so trusting, I would take the person's word they are contrite. If they are lying to me about it, that's between them and God.
:tutu:

[BabyLutheran]

:tutu:

OK, hmmm.

Can't decide whether you need to be forgiven for that or not...lol!

[DaRev]

There is a Green book and a Blue book.
The wording in the Blue book do appear to be conflicting to the Lutheran theology. (I do not have it here, so I cannot refer to it).

The Green book says on p.77: "I therefore declare to you the entire forgiveness of all your sins ..."
or, "... and for his sake God forgives you all your sins".

Pastor declares that what God has done.

Our Pastors are having a difficulty following the Blue book, especially the Assistant Pastor. :)
One could just see him feeling uncomfortable reading this from the Blue book. :):)

Both say about the same thing, but the Green book is much clearer to state that it is God who forgives and the Church who declares that forgiveness.

Thanks, :)
Ed

Yes, we all have the authority to forgive sins.

However, we could always be fooled by an insincere confession.

If someone confesses and is insincere and we forgive, will he be forgiven?

Thanks, :)
Ed

The pastor who gives absolution in the stead and by the command of Christ is indeed doing so in line with Lutheran theology.

Repentance is a necessary part of forgiveness, both of which comes from God. If one is unrepentant he is resisting the work of the Holy Spirit, thus there is no forgiveness received.

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The pastor who gives absolution in the stead and by the command of Christ is indeed doing so in line with Lutheran theology.

Repentance is a necessary part of forgiveness, both of which comes from God. If one is unrepentant he is resisting the work of the Holy Spirit, thus there is no forgiveness received.

That's my take on it. The Pastor is announcing forgiveness, but it Is Christ who does the forgiving.

In TLH, in The Order of Confessional Service it is made perfectly clear in the second part of the confession:

"I now ask you before God, Is this your sincere confession, that you heartily repent of your sins, believe on Jesus Christ, and sincerely and earnestly purpose, by the assistance of God the Holy Ghost, henceforth to amend your sinful life? Then declare so by saying: Yes." (short form)

In the long form it is even more explicit regarding the need for repentance, and the need to amend ones sinful ways.

LSB omits the long form (which is the one we always used ); darn shame.

Does any one use the "Confessional Service" anymore?

Mark

[RevCowboy]

Can someone please explain to me why a pastor can say during prayer in the service "I now forgive you of all of your sins"? The scripture often used to justify that doesn't seem to fit...I just want to understand so I can explain it to others who visit my church. Thanks. You can pm me too if you like.

It is not a person who says these words, rather it is spoken from the Office of Ministry. Pastors are those who are set apart and called by the Church (congregation and larger church body through ordination) to be the public voice and face of the ministry of a particular congregation, hence the Office of Ministry or Pastor. Therefore when the Pastor proclaims the forgiveness of sins in the presence of the assembly, it is God speaking through the whole Body of Christ... not a person doing the forgiving.

[Edial]

The pastor who gives absolution in the stead and by the command of Christ is indeed doing so in line with Lutheran theology.

Repentance is a necessary part of forgiveness, both of which comes from God. If one is unrepentant he is resisting the work of the Holy Spirit, thus there is no forgiveness received.
Right.
So when pastor declares forgiveness to the congregation, it is actually efficatious to the ones that are repentant.

[Edial]

OK, hmmm.

Can't decide whether you need to be forgiven for that or not...lol!
Actually I did not confess ... so forgiveness is not efficatious ...

:liturgy:

[Aibrean]

This is an example of how our church words it;

"Therefore, as His called servant, hear Him as He uses my voice to speak to you: I forgive you all your sins in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."

I.E. God is speaking to us through the voice of the pastor.