Formal apology to you all

[Jim47]

I truely am very sorry for my greeting I left a few days ago, I won't mention the name of the greeting as I don't want to further offend anyone.

Yes its quite true I was totaly ignorant of your non-celebration. I didn't bother to read thru your other threads so I was clueless, but what I did I know caused offence.

I sincerely apologize to you all. I won't bother to explain my beliefs which you may presume to know, but I can assure you that it is not a secular holiday for me. Although my intentions were good, it was just not fitting for you. Please forgive me. I do want to be your friends and I try hard to not hinder that relationship.

My wishes are for your best. :)

[christinepro]

G-d Bless You!

[simchat_torah]

You're a good man Jim, don't worry about it. I think people are more upset to how a select few reacted to your warm greeting.

[Liorah]

Warm greetings to you Jim47.

[Henaynei]

the warmth of both blessings and understanding - poured out and extended to you Brother :)

[Steve Petersen]

Converts to a new faith are always the most zealous. I am ashamed to say that at one time I would have been as intolerant as those who jumped on you Jim. I know were acting in good faith so no apology is necessary.

The world is full of good people. You are one of them.

[A_Pioneer]

Todah rabah,

Shalom

[visionary]

Thank you.... we knew in our hearts you are a good man... and wish to extend to you my apologizes.

[Bananna]

Jim
You are just so humble, Thank you for the apology I know you meant good...

Much blessings to you.
bananna

[Tishri1]

(((((((((((((((((Jimmy)))))))))))))))))))))))):hug:

[LadyGarnetRose]

Jim,

I hope your Christmas was a good one, and that this New Year brings you health and happiness.

[Ivy]

You done fine, Jim. :thumbsup: I wasn't offended of course, but I still think it is sweet of you to apologize.

Trusting your Christmas was glorious and that your New Year will be abundantly blessed. :cool:

[ChavaK]

I'm not a Messianic and you certainly didn't offend me,
but I'm a little embarrassed that you feel the need to
apologize....but very nice of you to do so, anyway...

[debi b]

Howdy Jim!

Sometimes ignorance is blissful ;) I didn't see the thread :wave:

I am sorry there was an issue...

[Lulav]

Jim, I already posted in the other thread to make you understand where I was coming from, I am sorry you took it wrong.

[Tea]

Also feeling saddened that this went the lenghts that it did.
Blessings to you.
T

[visionary]

By the way, curiousity has got the best of me. Did you happen to get past the offensiveness of the presentation and take a look at the presentation itself and learn about Yeshua's birthday??

[Jim47]

By the way, curiousity has got the best of me. Did you happen to get past the offensiveness of the presentation and take a look at the presentation itself and learn about Yeshua's birthday??


If I understand you correctly, yes. If you want to hear more of why I offered the greeting of what this holiday means to me I will be happy to answer, but it is not my intention to become defensive or to be offensive. In short, I do not view the holiday the same way qas the secular world does, and I guess I can safely say that I simply rejoice in the gift of a Savior from my sins. This is the true meaning of the holiday, that we recieved the promised Messiah.

Perhaps if that doesn't answer your question then I should reply by PM. I certainly don't want to cause any offence, and by the way I was not offended by any of the answers, though one was a little presumptious of my beliefs and why I posted the greeting.

I now understand its a sore spot with Messianics and I don't intend to tread on that. My only motive in the origional post was to offer my joyous celebration of this most precious gift and the fulfillment of our Father's promise. :)

[visionary]

No, I understand your intentions... it came from a heart full of joy in the Lord and was not intended to offend.

[HaReb]

It has to be said, of course, that the birth of Y'shua (whether we mark it in October or December) was actually for the benefit of the Jews! It was never meant to be a Gentile celebration - that rightly comes about at the Feast of Epiphany (if we hold to the December birth - adjust as necessary for the October birthdate) when the Word was made manifest to Gentiles. Just as Sh'ul writes in his letter to the Romans G_d's way of doing things is always first to the Jews THEN to the Gentiles - His Son's birth was no exception so, as far as I can see; there is rejoicing then that a Gentile (assuming that to be the case?) has wished his fellow believers a happy time of remembrance of the day when G_d sent His Son to the Jews!

Let's not be too semantic about the date but, rather, let's rejoice that G_d loved His chosen people so much He sent His Son to them and to no other nation, initially! We are doubly blessed that He did that, aren't we?

Let's regain the birth of Messiah for the Jews, yes, but let's rejoice that AFTER that He made Him known to the Gentiles and grafted them into the common root. Shame on us if we fall out about such an amazing act of love - mmm, thinking about it we just might have been lacking in that if the posts about this incident are anything to go by!

[HadassahSukkot]

:hug: Jim :hug:

[Jim47]

:hug: Jim :hug:


Hi there Sister. Huggz back at Ya :hug:

[Jim47]

I have a request if its Ok.

Could you plrease explain to me your holidays?

For instance:

First feast of Epiphany / then your explaination

I'm not looking for a detailed explaination as that will only confuse me, just a few brief words. But, please use common english as I have no idea what the Hebrew names mean.

[HaReb]

Hi Jim, the Feast of Epiphany is NOT a Jewish feast, it is a Christian feast and it marks the giving of the Old Testament to the Gentiles, via the visit of the 'wise men' to Y'shua's home about 2 years AFTER his birth. It is celebrated, mainly, by the Orthodox Churches.

Assuming that you are a Christian I am mildly surprised that you do not know of this feast day! My references to the 12 tribes is NOT a common interpretation of the 12 days of Christmas but was inserted in my post to you by way of asking my colleagues on this thread what they thought.

I, personally, have no objections to you asking questions - through knowledge fear and threat are often reduced, on all sides.

[Jim47]

Hi Jim, the Feast of Epiphany is NOT a Jewish feast, it is a Christian feast and it marks the giving of the Old Testament to the Gentiles, via the visit of the 'wise men' to Y'shua's home about 2 years AFTER his birth. It is celebrated, mainly, by the Orthodox Churches.

Assuming that you are a Christian I am mildly surprised that you do not know of this feast day! My references to the 12 tribes is NOT a common interpretation of the 12 days of Christmas but was inserted in my post to you by way of asking my colleagues on this thread what they thought.

I, personally, have no objections to you asking questions - through knowledge fear and threat are often reduced, on all sides.


Christians do indeed celebrate Epiphany ( but we simply use the term Epiphany) , in fact it was yesterday, but what I want if you will is a least of the holidays that Messianics celebrate, first with the name as you call it and then a brief explaination as to what it is. Again, I struggle with the Hebrew names your forum uses and they are hard for me to translate into english that I understand.

Thanks :)

[Henaynei]

Spring
Pesakh, aka Passover - deliverance from Egypt and from sin

Shavuot, aka Pentecost - giving of the Torah and the Ruakh HaKodesh aka Holy Spirit; also the first grain harvest

Fall
Rosh HaShanah, aka "Head of the year" i.e. New Year - the beginning of the civil cycle of the Hebrew calendar

Yom Kippur aka Day of Atonement - day of intense focus upon confession of sin and deep introspective examination - the Blood of Yeshua is our kipporah aka covering sacrifice

Sukkot aka Feast of Tabernacles or Booths - Joyous festival of harvest and G-ds blessings - also wide acknowledged as the birth date of Yeshua (that is a low key part of the festival), also the last grain harvest

Simchat Torah aka rejoicing in the Torah - the end of the yearly Torah reading cycle and the beginning of the new cycle - a time of joyous celebration over G-d's word

Winter
Khanukkah/Chanukkah/Hanukah etc -- Feast of Dedication of the Temple after it's defilement by the Seleucids around 625 CE (aka BC) - widely acknowledged as the time of conception of Yeshua (but that is rarely part of the festival)

Purim, aka "Lots" - celebration of our deliverance from the hand of Haman (see book of Ruth) when he case "lots" to determine what day to exterminate the Jews in Persia

[HaReb]

Hi Jim,

I guess many MJ's would say that they celebrate the key feasts: Passover, Pentecost, Tabernacles. Details of these are readily available in the Bible or on the internet. They are The Feasts, though other events, reflecting historical events (eg Purim and Chanukah being the more well known) are also celebrated but they are not, strictly speaking, the Biblical Feasts.

The Sabbath is of course, Friday/Saturday and NEVER, EVER a Sunday (unless a Special Sabbath happens to fall on that day). A Special Sabbath (for want of a better term) marks the beginning of a Feast time as in John's gospel (John 19:31) which shows that Y'shua (Jesus) could not have died and risen in the way Christian's believe to be the case.

These things are complicated but you have to get the right mindset to begin to understand these things, which almost every minister in the church knows but which they cannot expose because it would bring the church down - 2000 years of 'wrong teaching' cannot be un-done easily!!

I offer the above not with any sort of arrogance on my part, but in humility, to try and explain something of the mess we find ourselves in when we try, genuinely, to seek better understandings of Him whom we serve. If you are going to dig deeper, which I really hope you will, you must be prepared for a number of your Christian understandings of Scripture and of Judaism to be stood on their heads! But it can be done and, in doing so, you will find such joy and release as you find the real Messiah in the midst of the tangle of weeds that is Christianity and Judaism, today.

[Tishri1]

Hi Jim((((((((((((((((((((Hugs)))))))))))))))))))))))))

God's appointed times to meet with his children, are also prophetic times to fullfill his Word in the Earth...those times are these....
daily=sunset the start of everyday is at sunset not sunrise or midnight....shows that there is a time of darkness before he shouts "Let there be light!!!!" in the end times there will be a 7 year period of darkness called the Days of Awe ,or Jacobs Trouble, Birth Pains of the Messiah
weekly=Shabbat marks the time at the end of the week when we rest in him..... this will be fulfilled in his day that is all shabbat, the 1000 year reign at the end of the age when the guns will become plows and the lion will lay down with the lamb....its our day of shalom rest from the trouble and toil of the work week, some call these days rehearsals, like a wedding rehearsal
monthly=new moon, shows us the seasons ....Paul says we are not ignorant that we understand the seasons including the season that will usher in the return of the king and the marriage of the bride and the change in our own bodies, as they turn from corruptible to incorruptible....just as no man knows the day or hour of the new moon we do not know for certain unless we are awake and watching and sober and not ignorant about the signs of the times.....
yearly=Passover=Jesus' death......
Unleaven Bread= Jesus' burial.......
First Fruits= Jesus' Resurrection.....
Shavaot/ Pentecost=Day the Holy Spirit is givenALL FULLFILLED :clap:on God's Appointed Times /Days.......:clap:
the next 3 yet to be fulfilled, but we have hints that help us know what happens on what day or at least the season that the festival is in, and based on the hebrew idioms in the scriptures (old and new testaments)....
Rosh Ha Shannah/Feast of Trumpets=(IMO when the rapture or catching away would take place ....when? I dont know but lots of idioms point to this day as the day it could take place)........
Day of Atonement= Day the Trib begins and the Day of Jesus' Return at the end of the Trib........
Sukkot/Feast of booths=The beginning of the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth(also the birthday of Jesus 2000 years ago)
every 7 years there is a shabbot of return and every 7 ,7s as wellALL these set apart times are telling us his plan for man kind in ways only those celebrating them can truly appreciate, he speaks to us thru his festivals and what he does with them and on them


one of the best books I know explaining them is called "Rosh Ha Shannah and the Messianic Kingdom to Come" by Joe Good:thumbsup:

[HaReb]

Hi folk - may I tactfully suggest that we observe Jim's request for 'common English' to be used? He will find it harder to learn if we use language that is not clear to him!
May I also suggest that Jim asks us to explain terms we have used if they are not clear - I wonder if he knows what 'Trib' means, and its implications, not to mention the variations on that theme that many of us use, or even Shabbat, Shabbot.

Jim might also read

Living Judaism - the Complete Guide to Jewish Belief. Tradition, and Practice
Dosick, Rabbi W. (Harper:San Francisco CA 1995)

God's Appointed Customs - a Messianic Jewish Guide to the Biblical Lifecycle and Lifestyle
Kasdan, B (Lederer:Baltimore MD 1996)

Dosick is a clear reference book, with short essays on subjects to help understanding, Kasdan uses transliterations of Hebrew words and goes into some detail about a whole range of things including a Messianic Wedding Service!

[Jim47]

Wow, thanks to you all. That will help indeed, but it will take me a few days to study it all and get back to you with answers, and more questions. I have limited time this week so please allow me a few days. :)

HaReb, I do have one question I can ask you now, in referance to this>> "A Special Sabbath (for want of a better term) marks the beginning of a Feast time as in John's gospel (John 19:31) which shows that Y'shua (Jesus) could not have died and risen in the way Christian's believe to be the case."

I believe you are saying that Jesus could not have risen on a sunday? Can you explain please? I've not heard this before.

[visionary]

Wow, thanks to you all. That will help indeed, but it will take me a few days to study it all and get back to you with answers, and more questions. I have limited time this week so please allow me a few days. :)

HaReb, I do have one question I can ask you now, in referance to this>> "A Special Sabbath (for want of a better term) marks the beginning of a Feast time as in John's gospel (John 19:31) which shows that Y'shua (Jesus) could not have died and risen in the way Christian's believe to be the case."

I believe you are saying that Jesus could not have risen on a sunday? Can you explain please? I've not heard this before.The rising of Yeshua (aka Jesus) on sunday is correct....as in first fruits fulfillment. But this particular sunday is a feast day. One of two that will always occur on sunday every year.

The Passover is on the 14th of Nissan and the Feast of Unleaven Bread is next and are both quite often consider all part of the Feast of Unleaven Bread. Lev 4:23 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
Passover
5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
Feast of Unleaven Bread
6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. 7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. 8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. 9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
Wave Sheaf/First Fruits
11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. 12 And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD. 13 And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin. 14 And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

Pentecost
15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: 16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.Passover can happen any day of the week, it falls on when the 14th of Nissan occurs. Then The Feast of Unleaven Bread will occur the next day..... but the First Fruits/Wave Sheaf will always occur on the first sunday after the weekly sabbath found in the seven days of the Feast of Unleaven Bread. After seven sabbaths are counted (counting of the omer) the next sunday is Pentacost.

This year Passover will fall a month after Easter.

[Henaynei]

I believe you are saying that Jesus could not have risen on a sunday? Can you explain please? I've not heard this before. OOoooh! you go right for the gut of the matter - wow - what a teachable and inquisitive spirit! :D :thumbsup:

[Henaynei]

Technically Yeshua rose just after the conclusion of Shabbat which ended at sunset of the day we most often call Saturday ... at least that is the time of the completion of the count of the "3 days and 3 nights" that He prophesied ... as I'm sure you know from Friday afternoon to Sunday morning (the traditional count) does not include 3 days and 3 nights ....

That year:
Passover began at sunset on Wednesday
Scripture says that they asked for his body so that they could bury him before the Sabbath started - as noted above the first day of one of G-d's ordained feasts is a Sabbath.... so.... he was buried and in the earth ...

1 night - Wed sunset to Thur morning
1 day - Thur morning to Thur sunset
2 night - Thur sunset to Friday morning
2 day - Friday morning to Friday sunset
3 night - Friday sunset to Saturday morning
3 day - Saturday morning to Saturday sunset

Yeshua rose some time after sunset Saturday :)

[Henaynei]

The rising of Yeshua (aka Jesus) on sunday is correct.... But this particular sunday is a feast day. One of two that will always occur on sunday every year. WOW - you count the Omer like I count the Omer , Oh oh Oh what a gal !! http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cmmsdm/smilies/sing.gif :clap:

[Tishri1]

....

Jim might also read ....



God's Appointed Customs - a Messianic Jewish Guide to the Biblical Lifecycle and Lifestyle
Kasdan, B (Lederer:Baltimore MD 1996)

Hey thats MY Rabbi!!!!:D thanks HaReb:hug::hug::hug::hug::hug:I go to his Shul...BTW I have been posting a few of his messages here (http://christianforums.com/t6659920-wise-men-still-seek-himspiritual-treasures-from-the-dead-sea-scrolls-rabbi-bkasdan.html)for the folks to listen to if they want, Jim they are real eazy to follow yet full of interesting things(and you can listen with out feeling like you need to become Messianic), they are just full of wonderful information about how everything connects to belief in Jesus and also gobs of Historical points that make the New and Old Testiment come alive:hug::hug::hug::hug:


Hey If I accidentally added a word that eludes you please ask I will gladly clarify for my great friend:hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug:

[Tishri1]

Wow, thanks to you all. That will help indeed, but it will take me a few days to study it all and get back to you with answers, and more questions. I have limited time this week so please allow me a few days. :)

HaReb, I do have one question I can ask you now, in referance to this>> "A Special Sabbath (for want of a better term) marks the beginning of a Feast time as in John's gospel (John 19:31) which shows that Y'shua (Jesus) could not have died and risen in the way Christian's believe to be the case."

I believe you are saying that Jesus could not have risen on a sunday? Can you explain please? I've not heard this before.he probably means that Jesus fulfilled the three day three night prophesy better than Christians have believed like Henny explained

Technically Yeshua rose just after the conclusion of Shabbat which ended at sunset of the day we most often call Saturday ... at least that is the time of the completion of the count of the "3 days and 3 nights" that He prophesied ... as I'm sure you know from Friday afternoon to Sunday morning (the traditional count) does not include 3 days and 3 nights ....

That year:
Passover began at sunset on Wednesday
Scripture says that they asked for his body so that they could bury him before the Sabbath started - as noted above the first day of one of G-d's ordained feasts is a Sabbath.... so.... he was buried and in the earth ...

1 night - Wed sunset to Thur morning
1 day - Thur morning to Thur sunset
2 night - Thur sunset to Friday morning
2 day - Friday morning to Friday sunset
3 night - Friday sunset to Saturday morning
3 day - Saturday morning to Saturday sunset

Yeshua rose some time after sunset Saturday :):thumbsup:

Most Folks assume that when the scriptures say Sabbath was the day he died and was burried it had to be a Friday without thinking that Shabbat (Sabbath) is also what we call (and Scripture calls) Gods Appointed Times / Festivals .....

This particular Sabbath being on Wed (Passover)/Thur( Unleaven Bread)..... , so his death at 3pm was on Passover and his burial just before 6pm would then start Unleaven Bread.....

Both are filled up with meaning by Jesus, which can be found by looking in the New Testament, but also in the Old Testament by finding out how those festivals worked and what they were for originally too (the Hebrew idioms in all the Festivals are very interesting to learn about), ....and by finding out how Passover services are conducted then and today, and what Unleaven Bread is all about as well......

Many Churches celebrate Passover together these days because of the teaching and instruction they have found in the service itself:thumbsup:, it brings even more meaning to the plan of Salvation God has for the whole Earth:clap:

I found some audio teaching (http://www.kehilatariel.org/messages/20060415Bikkurim.mp3)from my Rabbi again and posted it here for you:hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug: