CF the community, CF the business

[Rep Daddy]

This thread is for discussion of whether CF is a community, a ministry or a business.

A lot of the arguments made in policy discussions seem to assume that CF is one of these three and neither of the others.

Is one of these CF's paradigm?

If so, which one?

If not, what aspects of each of these paradigms are important and which are not?

[Rep Daddy]

If you believe in democracy then why are you fighting against utilizing it here?

Dude, LeeD owns the place. He saw the results of Erwin's experiment and promptly REVERSED it. You are tilting at windmills.

[Beastt]

Dude, LeeD owns the place. He saw the results of Erwin's experiment and promptly REVERSED it. You are tilting at windmills.

Lee D is a business man. Did you not read his interview about using web sites for financial gain as advertising space?

He reversed Erwin's decisions because the majority of those calling themselves "Christians" at this site were outraged when asked to employ Christian values. They want complete control over the site. Sharing isn't part of their creed. When someone offends them, they want blood. Tolerance and forgiveness isn't part of their personal belief system.

And again we see members here turning away from concepts of morality in favor of concepts of legislation -- man's legislation. I said it before, but it seems it needs to be said again; when you want morality, you talk morality over man's laws. When morality isn't working for your side, you toss it in the garbage and start talking about "rights".

Certainly Lee D has the "right" to do whatever he wishes here. He could decide anyone from west of the Mississippi can't be a member. But would that be morally correct? If he recognizes Christian values, then he should recognize that he purchased servers, the rights to code and space he can offer to advertisers in exchange for money. He didn't buy me, nor did he buy you. When you purchase a community, you are not without some moral responsibility to the members of that community.

It's not always about what the law says is your right, sometimes it's about what is morally and ethically "right".

[Richard]

If you believe in democracy then why are you fighting against utilizing it here? It's not uncommon to find that those in positions of power don't want democracy while those under their control, do. That seems to be the situation here. You want democracy when you're the potential victim, but not when you're the one positioned to control others.


Just because I believe in democracy, doesn't mean I think this site should be democratic. How many businesses are democratic?

[Rep Daddy]

Lee D is a business man. Did you not read his interview about using web sites for financial gain as advertising space?

He reversed Erwin's decisions because the majority of those calling themselves "Christians" at this site were outraged when asked to employ Christian values. They want complete control over the site. Sharing isn't part of their creed. When someone offends them, they want blood. Tolerance and forgiveness isn't part of their personal belief system.

And again we see members here turning away from concepts of morality in favor of concepts of legislation -- man's legislation. I said it before, but it seems it needs to be said again; when you want morality, you talk morality over man's laws. When morality isn't working for your side, you toss it in the garbage and start talking about "rights".

Certainly Lee D has the "right" to do whatever he wishes here. He could decide anyone from west of the Mississippi can't be a member. But would that be morally correct? If he recognizes Christian values, then he should recognize that he purchased servers, the rights to code and space he can offer to advertisers in exchange for money. He didn't buy me, nor did he buy you. When you purchase a community, you are not without some moral responsibility to the members of that community.

It's not always about what the law says is your right, sometimes it's about what is morally and ethically "right".

You're right, it is Lee's job to make Beastt happy.

[Crazy Liz]

Just because I believe in democracy, doesn't mean I think this site should be democratic. How many businesses are democratic?
You think this site is a business, not a community.

Fine.

In your mind, is there any irony in volunteering to work for free to support someone else's business? If CF is a business, what's in it for you?

[Lindon Tinuviel]

Just because I believe in democracy, doesn't mean I think this site should be democratic. How many businesses are democratic?

Didn't Jesus cast out the moneychangers?

What are you getting out of this?

[SilentTraveler]

You think this site is a business, not a community.

Fine.

In your mind, is there any irony in volunteering to work for free to support someone else's business? If CF is a business, what's in it for you?
what do you call non-profit organizations who use volunteers...or political campaigns who utilize volunteers...they both take in money, are they not businesses?

Just thought I'd ask.

[ravenscape]

NOTE: This thread was split from DISCUSSION OF ANNOUNCEMENT: New Infractions & Warning System (http://christianforums.com/t6400648)

[Crazy Liz]

what do you call non-profit organizations who use volunteers...or political campaigns who utilize volunteers...they both take in money, are they not businesses?

Just thought I'd ask.
No, political campaigns and non-profit organizations are not businesses. Their purpose is to promote a cause such as mutual assitance, the public good, an ideology, or charity. Some of them raise money and some of them use the service of volunteers in pursuit of a purpose the volunteers and contributors believe in.

Businesses are for the purpose of making a profit. I happily volunteer my services to help a friend or to improve my community. I don't volunteer my services to make a rich man richer unless there is something in it for me. That's why I asked mods who see CF as a business why they volunteer. What's in it for you?

[Lindon Tinuviel]

Be right back, guys... I've volunteered to stock a few shelves at Wal~Mart so their sales will increase. They're letting me wear one of the blue vests and a smiley-face sticker, so I'm happy to do it.

[Richard]

Be right back, guys... I've volunteered to stock a few shelves at Wal~Mart so their sales will increase. They're letting me wear one of the blue vests and a smiley-face sticker, so I'm happy to do it.

Wal-Mart has done away with the blue vests.

[Richard]

Didn't Jesus cast out the moneychangers?

What are you getting out of this?

I have made a lot of friends here and I also enjoy posting. That's enough. I like the site.

[Lindon Tinuviel]

I have made a lot of friends here and I also enjoy posting. That's enough. I like the site.

Are you saying that you like the business? Because it sounds like you enjoy the community.

[Auntie]

No, political campaigns and non-profit organizations are not businesses. Their purpose is to promote a cause such as mutual assitance, the public good, an ideology, or charity. Some of them raise money and some of them use the service of volunteers in pursuit of a purpose the volunteers and contributors believe in.

Businesses are for the purpose of making a profit. I happily volunteer my services to help a friend or to improve my community. I don't volunteer my services to make a rich man richer unless there is something in it for me. That's why I asked mods who see CF as a business why they volunteer. What's in it for you?

196 mods x a minimum pay of $200.00 per week = $39,200.00 dollars per week.

$39,200.00 x 52 weeks = $2,038,400.00

Wake up people, wake up.

The MINIMUM value of the workers here is OVER 2 million dollars.
Let me repeat. 2 million dollars.

How sweet it is. And how wonderful it would be to have a multi-million dollar business where employee's work for free. Wal-Mart is green with envy.

[Tenebrae]

what do you call non-profit organizations who use volunteers...or political campaigns who utilize volunteers...they both take in money, are they not businesses?

Just thought I'd ask.


I work for a not for profit and we are very dependent on volunters from Germany. Our volunters get room and board and a small allowance each week


Compared with the hours they do it means they are working for about $1 and hour, however we believe its very important to care for our volunters because if we dont treat them well then word gets around and one day we discover we have no more volunters



I think it would be nice if mods even got something like a site supporter status for the duration of their tenure as mods

[arborvita]

Well I really think this is volunteer work. Just like the rest of the non staffers that volunteer like the paper, armory, pets rescueres. This is an online community and yes money does change hands for the up keep and profit of this site but in the end we all choose to stay at this site for the good and the bad.

[Auntie]

I think it would be nice if mods even got something like a site supporter status for the duration of their tenure as mods


At least.

[Tenebrae]

Well I really think this is volunteer work. Just like the rest of the non staffers that volunteer like the paper, armory, pets rescueres. This is an online community and yes money does change hands for the up keep and profit of this site but in the end we all choose to stay at this site for the good and the bad.
fine then give them one as well.

[Mary_Magdalene]

Lee D is a business man. Did you not read his interview about using web sites for financial gain as advertising space?

He reversed Erwin's decisions because the majority of those calling themselves "Christians" at this site were outraged when asked to employ Christian values. They want complete control over the site. Sharing isn't part of their creed. When someone offends them, they want blood. Tolerance and forgiveness isn't part of their personal belief system.

And again we see members here turning away from concepts of morality in favor of concepts of legislation -- man's legislation. I said it before, but it seems it needs to be said again; when you want morality, you talk morality over man's laws. When morality isn't working for your side, you toss it in the garbage and start talking about "rights".

Certainly Lee D has the "right" to do whatever he wishes here. He could decide anyone from west of the Mississippi can't be a member. But would that be morally correct? If he recognizes Christian values, then he should recognize that he purchased servers, the rights to code and space he can offer to advertisers in exchange for money. He didn't buy me, nor did he buy you. When you purchase a community, you are not without some moral responsibility to the members of that community.

It's not always about what the law says is your right, sometimes it's about what is morally and ethically "right".


i have always wondered something (and i am not trying to be a jerk)....why are you here? i am asking a serious question. i love having all different faiths and beliefs on cf but i always wondered why a non-Christian would care so much what happens with the direction of a website that, by name, is exact opposite of your belief system? :scratch: you have been arguing over this cf stuff for years..

thanks. :)

[tapero]

I would think a non Chistian would be interested in the direction of cf as is a member of cf. Need there be any reason?

[Crazy Liz]

A similar question came up today in the thread about non-Christian mods (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6651516&page=1&nw_show=comments). There, the third dominant paradigm, "ministry," was used to argue against having non-Christian mods.

I guess to me the paradigm that makes most sense is that CF is a proprietorship in which a place is provided where people may form communities and engage in ministry. I think of a coffeehouse where a church meets together. I've met with groups of Christians at Starbucks lots of times. Maybe you have, too.

Is that a good analogy?

[Angel4Truth]

No because starbucks was made to make money reguardless of what happens there. CF wasnt created to make money as its sole intent.

If Cf was just here to make money - i think the whole place would be much different than it is.

[Crazy Liz]

No because starbucks was made to make money reguardless of what happens there. CF wasnt created to make money as its sole intent.

If Cf was just here to make money - i think the whole place would be much different than it is.
A good point.

I think the change in ownership may have changed the primary purpose of CF. When Erwin was running CF, I could appeal to his stated purposes for the site. Everything I've read about the new owner tells me his interest in internet forums is to make the maximum amount of money from them. I've seen no evidence that he has any other objective in mind for CF than to maximize his own bottom line.

Even so, he could be like the guy who buys a coffee franchise where a bunch of Christians meet together to drink coffee, talk and participate in ministry. The owner doesn't direct their ministry, but for reasons of his own, offers a place where others can.

[Angel4Truth]

The owner does direct here though and hes stated he considered it a ministry. As a ministry the expectations are different than if it was stated to be just a business.

[Amoranemix]

It seems to me that christianforums is a business, a ministry as well as a community. The reforms Erwins instilled didn't make the forum completely democratic. It can be argued that it was too democratic back then, but now it is clearly too totalitarian.

You're right, it is Lee's job to make Beastt happy.That is not what he said.

Didn't Jesus cast out the moneychangers?
What are you [Richard] getting out of this?Staff privileges. They also get the feeling they are making a valuable contribution to the community as they are working as volunteers.

The MINIMUM value of the workers here is OVER 2 million dollars.
Let me repeat. 2 million dollars.As I argued in christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6675430 I think your figure is exaggerated. I arrived at 360.000$.

I think it would be nice if mods even got something like a site supporter status for the duration of their tenure as modsWhy give them something extra if they are willing to work without it ?

i have always wondered something (and i am not trying to be a jerk)....why are you [Beastt] here? i am asking a serious question. i love having all different faiths and beliefs on cf but i always wondered why a non-Christian would care so much what happens with the direction of a website that, by name, is exact opposite of your belief system? :scratch: you have been arguing over this cf stuff for years..There are from time to time threads about what sceptics are doing on this message board in the General Apologetics (http://christianforums.com/f13-general-apologetics.html) forum. I don't have a link to one, but the following one gets close : christianforums.com/t4533103-chrstians-what-are-atheists-doing-here-defining-debate-apologetics-blasphemy.html

The owner does direct here though and hes stated he considered it a ministry. As a ministry the expectations are different than if it was stated to be just a business.Maybe he stated he considers it a ministry because he thinks that will attract more visitors. It sells better than 'You are here to earn me money.'
Since Christianity is undemocratic, killing democracy makes sense from a ministry POV.

[Angel4Truth]

um why do you keep bumping threads that are wayyyy old and the context of the conversation is long past??

[Bombila]

A4T, maybe because the current upgrade and implied direction of the site makes these issues relevant right now.

I wonder sometimes why people get annoyed at the revival of old conversations. Opinions and information don`t usually become invalid in less than six months, or a year.

[Angel4Truth]

Considering they are still working on the forum this is premature and out of context to whats happening now. Starting a new thread would be better would it not?

[Rep Daddy]

Please close this.
Thanks
RepDaddy

[ravenscape]

Thread closed at OPer's request. Other members may start a new thread on this topic if they wish to continue the discussion.

Thanks,

Raven
Team Joy