Total Abstinance From Alchohol - Biblical Or Extremist?

[Bruce S]

Scriptural Principles and Examples Recommend Abstinence

Alcohol destroys the body. Even in small amounts it begins its subtle work of destruction, taking its toll on mental and physical reactions. God knew this fact very well when He gave instructions that priests and kings (spiritual and secular leaders) should refrain from any use of alcoholic beverages.

In the Old Testament instruction to the Levites, the spiritual leaders of Israel, priests were commanded to abstain from wine or intoxicating drink when they went into the presence of the Lord to minister (Leviticus 10:8-11). This requirement of abstinence was given so the ministering priest would be able to distinguish between the holy and the unholy, between the clean and the unclean, and so he could be a teacher of all the statutes of God.

Today, all born-again Christians have been made priests to God (1 Peter 2:9; Revelation 1:6). As such we should always give our best and be at our best in His service. We believe the standard of abstinence demanded of the Old Testament priest should be the standard of every Christian today. We too must distinguish between right and wrong. We must be Spirit-led teachers in a society that greatly needs divine instruction and godly example.

Secular leaders are also to abstain from alcohol. "It is not for kings to drink wine, nor for princes intoxicating drink; lest they drink and forget the law, and pervert the justice of all the afflicted" (Proverbs 31:4,5, NKJV). If the prohibition is absolutely essential for spiritual and secular leaders, it is certainly essential for every believer. We who are kings and priests unto God (Revelation 1:6) must live according to His standards.

Pretty extreme position, as stated by the Assembly of God position paper. Now, in today's climate, the modern secular world, for those who are not prone to drunkeness, those who imbibe with moderation, is this taking things to the extreme? Some might think so, others not.

What is the position on this in your life, are you, like this paper states, forbidden to drink alchohol, or is this one thing that might be taken to extremes and something that is too literal?

Full Linkout > http://ag.org/top/beliefs/position_papers/4187_abstinence.cfm

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Legalism. Making rules to bind people that are not even stated in Scripture, which rather says that God gave us wine to gladden our hearts, and records Jesus making gallons of it for people who'd already been on the grog.

[Rechtgläubig]

Wow they turned Christ Himself into a sinner :(



Alcohol destroys the body. Even in small amounts it begins its subtle work of destruction, taking its toll on mental and physical reactions

And studies show that in moderation, alcohol and wine in particular can be healthy. Interesting. I better wait an hour or two to drive after drinking my thimble full of wine at Communion too.

[Bruce S]

Legalism. Making rules to bind people that are not even stated in Scripture, which rather says that God gave us wine to gladden our hearts, and records Jesus making gallons of it for people who'd already been on the grog.
Interesting spin, and TRUE too. I wonder how many of those at the Wedding at Caana, would have been arrested today, under our strict DUI laws for drunken donkey riding?

;)

[Knight]

Interesting spin, and TRUE too. I wonder how many of those at the Wedding at Caana, would have been arrested today, under our strict DUI laws for drunken donkey riding?

;)
The real question is....

How much did the donkey drink?

(I could make a joke here but it would be rather crude... :))

[Andrew]

no, but what did the drunk rider hear the donkey say?

[Gabriel]

The bible commands us to be sober minded. One of the requirements of men who would be Elders or Deacons is that they are "not given to much wine" in other words, not a drunkard. Drinking in moderation? I believe many in the bible did so without sin. Our Lord being one of them.

Consider this, we are also commanded not to be a stumbling block. If my beer on the table while my family and I are out to dinner gives the impression that I am a hypocrite as I say grace am I still without sin? If I argue so much in favor of my drink that I cause an unbeliever to have a false view of Christianity am I not allowing my drink to be a stumbling block? While drinking in moderation is, in my opinion, acceptable I should always be willing to set it aside to serve others properly.

[Lanakila]

Very balanced position Gabriel. :clap:

[Knight]

The bible commands us to be sober minded. One of the requirements of men who would be Elders or Deacons is that they are "not given to much wine" in other words, not a drunkard. Drinking in moderation? I believe many in the bible did so without sin. Our Lord being one of them.

Consider this, we are also commanded not to be a stumbling block. If my beer on the table while my family and I are out to dinner gives the impression that I am a hypocrite as I say grace am I still without sin? If I argue so much in favor of my drink that I cause an unbeliever to have a false view of Christianity am I not allowing my drink to be a stumbling block? While drinking in moderation is, in my opinion, acceptable I should always be willing to set it aside to serve others properly.
I could not have said it better.

You just described the position of our church on this issue.

[Lanakila]

Well the position of my church and pastor is that of abstaining entirely. They are legalistic on this issue. But I won't leave a church over something as trivial as this.

My position is that God has given everything for our enjoyment. The restrictions and rules regarding this are all personal choices I have made. I drink occasionally at home. I never get drunk. I might drink one drink or so publically in an appropriate for limited social drinking type function. But if one drop touches my lips I won't get behind the wheel of a car. Life is just too valuable to take foolish chances. The Bible teaches liberty within limits. Drunkeness is sinful, and leads to multiple other sinful things.

[Lotar]

My church doesn't allow those involved in the ministry to drink. I disagree with them on this issue, especially their reasoning for it. It isn't a big deal to me though since I don't drink for other reasons (hint *I'm irish) anyways.

[ByGrace]

I gotta say that I dont see a real problem with someone drinking in moderation. I for one stay away as I am one that has had problems with alcohol in the past and I dont think it is a good thing for me.

When the Church starts getting to legalistic, it is hard to find Grace. I hope that never becomes the norm.

[jbarcher]

Cool. This is very good to know...I have also heard that a little beer is good for the immune system. Something like that.

Well, unless I have to drink beer/wine, water is good for me. Or juice >_>

[Serapha]

Interesting spin, and TRUE too. I wonder how many of those at the Wedding at Caana, would have been arrested today, under our strict DUI laws for drunken donkey riding?

;)

Hi there!

:wave:


Wine has to be mixed with water to be blessed as in the case of a wedding. The normal ratio was three parts of water and one part of wine to be blessed. If one consumed wine which was not blessed, then the person was then defiled.

"yayin" or wine is always diluted and distinguised from "shekar" or strong drink.

Shabbath 77a states that wine that does not carry three parts water is not wine.

How much wine would one have to drink to be DUI in a donkey race? Four times as much as you are implying.


~malaka~

[Serapha]

Hi there!

:wave:


I don't consume alcohol in any form. It isn't because I "can't" because of my beliefs... but that I chose not to.

It is a choice.

~malaka~

[Lanakila]

I have heard that wine information before Malaka, but then why did Paul say not to be drunk with wine wherein is excess but to be filled with the Spirit? Also another question, how were the apostles accused of being drunk so early in the morning, if the wine that drank was so watered down?

This is all speculation that I have heard before. Very little evidence to back it up however.

[Serapha]

I have heard that wine information before Malaka, but then why did Paul say not to be drunk with wine wherein is excess but to be filled with the Spirit? Also another question, how were the apostles accused of being drunk so early in the morning, if the wine that drank was so watered down?

This is all speculation that I have heard before. Very little evidence to back it up however.

Hi there!


:wave:

Exactly what "evidence" are you seeking? Evidences that drinking is justified or evidence that drinking alcohol is not justified in the Bible?

~malaka~

[Lanakila]

Evidence that the wine that they drank was watered down, therefore making it allowable. But that because the alcohol that we drink isn't watered down, its not allowable.

Malaka, I was saved in a legalistic church, and went to a legalistic college. So I have heard every justification for making things that the Bible says are free into sin, or even things the Bible doesn't mention sins. My husband ended up pastoring a church full of people that lived up to some kind of legalistic standard, but many of them were unbelievers, which was evidenced later.

I don't mean offense its just that I have been down the legalism trail for a major portion of my Christian life. I may be swung the other way a little on the freedom, but I am working towards a balanced approach.

[ByGrace]

I have to agree with Lankilla. The Bible does not say that Jesus turned a quarter of the water into wine so it would be diluted but instead says he changed it. I believe this could have been a jug of milk or coke if that had been available. It could have been air for that matter. Legalism robs so many from finding the gift of Grace that it should be shunned.

[cleopa_of_emmaus]

Everything in moderation. Obviously there are people who cannot handle alcohol, and they should stay away from it, but to ban it outright? Very silly indeed...wine maketh glad the heart of man.



~cleopa

[MorphRC]

Interesting spin, and TRUE too. I wonder how many of those at the Wedding at Caana, would have been arrested today, under our strict DUI laws for drunken donkey riding?

;)
LOL! Thats a classic!

** types it down and takes all credit..^_^ **

[Peter]

I know this isnt my forum, but if I may point out two historical facts?

1. Until Dr. Thomas Welch discovered his system for keeping grape juice from fermenting, all churches used wine in communion.
2. There was a group of 2nd century believers who did not use wine, but water, in communion. They were the Encratites (sp?). The church did not accept them or their beliefs.

Peace.

Peter

[dignitized]

1 Peter 4:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1PET+4:3&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

1 Timothy 3:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1TIM+3:8&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;


1 Timothy 5:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1TIM+5:23&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.


The scriptures do not speak against drinking fermented beverages, but against drinking them in excess - getting drunk.

[Brian Daniel]

Pretty extreme position, as stated by the Assembly of God position paper. Now, in today's climate, the modern secular world, for those who are not prone to drunkeness, those who imbibe with moderation, is this taking things to the extreme? Some might think so, others not.

What is the position on this in your life, are you, like this paper states, forbidden to drink alchohol, or is this one thing that might be taken to extremes and something that is too literal?

Full Linkout > http://ag.org/top/beliefs/position_papers/4187_abstinence.cfm
I think it is taken to an extreme. I drink alcohol, and I don't think it is sinful or a "bad witness" to have a couple of drinks in the evening. I don't go to bars, drive after drinking, or go out and party. I just like a couple of beers in the evening. I don't drink so much that I am staggering, my speech is slurred, judgement impaired or anything. I've never missed work due to drinking. There is a point at which drinking becomes sinful. There is also a point at which eating becomes sinful gluttony. On hot summer days, when it is over 100 degrees in the shade, a few hard lemonades over several hours can be quite refreshing. Under that circumstance, I can't even feel the alcohol. The Bible even suggests that if you have a friend who has fallen on hard times, you should drink with him so he forgets his worries.

Proverbs 31:6-7 (KJV)
Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. [7] Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

[Oblio]

I think it is extremist. Alcohol in moderation is OK IMO and in the teaching of the Orthodox Church (just offered for info to compare & contrast ;) ). I don't think it is wrong to give thanks in public for your food and wine, I consider it a positive witness because I know that there are many atheists and seekers that find a legalistic view of drinking a stumbling block to the faith (especially in SBC dominated regions).

[Rejoice]

I agree with all things in moderation.

1 Corinthians 6
12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

[dignitized]

okay okay - but what about those who teach that it was not wine that the Lord made at the Wedding of Canna, but Grape juice!! How strange is that?

[Icystwolf]

It's not the alcohol being the problem, it's the person. It's not the food but the heart...

What Defiles a Person

10And he called the people to him and said to them, "Hear and understand: 11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person." 12Then the disciples came and said to him, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?" 13He answered, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. 14 Let them alone; they are blind guides.[3 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+15&language=english&version=ESV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_968956076_3)] And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit." 15But Peter said to him, "Explain the parable to us." 16And he said, "Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled?[4 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+15&language=english&version=ESV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_968956076_4)] 18 But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone."

Hebrews 13
9Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them.

[MorphRC]

The Only alcohol i ever drink is at the mass, during the Eucharist but when that is consecrated it becomes Jesus's blood as commanded in John 6:54:D

[Serapha]

My church doesn't allow those involved in the ministry to drink. I disagree with them on this issue, especially their reasoning for it. It isn't a big deal to me though since I don't drink for other reasons (hint *I'm irish) anyways.
Hi there!

:wave:

There is a basis for not wanting those serving God in the ministry to consume wine or strong drink. It wasn't allowed to the Jewish priests. Of course, it is somewhat different for the present day. The Jewish priest only went into the tabernacle four times a year, whereas a minister IS the tabernacle of the Spirit of God.... and every Christian is a member of the priesthood.

Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:


~malaka~

[Photini]

I2. There was a group of 2nd century believers who did not use wine, but water, in communion. They were the Encratites (sp?). The church did not accept them or their beliefs.

Peace.

Peter
Wasn't there also some that used milk and honey? I think I heard this somewhere.

[Serapha]

Evidence that the wine that they drank was watered down, therefore making it allowable. But that because the alcohol that we drink isn't watered down, its not allowable.




Hi there!

:wave:

Drinking wine not mixed with water was considered "barbarian" or "Sythian" to the Jew.


I have not told you that you may not drink, Lanakila, it is your choice. And if you don't water it down, that is your choice also. If you want be "Christ-like" in your drinking, you will water down your wine as the Talmud identifies in various references, and you will avoid the alcohol products from grain.

The Jewish law was specific about wine, how much, how to mix, when to drink during the meal, even what type of bowl to mix the water and wine in.... Christ followed the Jewish laws, didn't He?

~malaka~

[dignitized]

Hi there!

:wave:

There is a basis for not wanting those serving God in the ministry to consume wine or strong drink. It wasn't allowed to the Jewish priests. Of course, it is somewhat different for the present day. The Jewish priest only went into the tabernacle four times a year, whereas a minister IS the tabernacle of the Spirit of God.... and every Christian is a member of the priesthood.

Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:


~malaka~
The text in question refers to those priests who were serving IN the tabernacle, not ALL the priests. I would say that today, it would be equivalent to a minister going to the alter or pulpit drunk. It would be a desecration and an abomination unto God and unacceptable.

[dignitized]

drink or do not drink, just don't be a DRUNK!! now - pass the beer. ;)

[Serapha]

The text in question refers to those priests who were serving IN the tabernacle, not ALL the priests. I would say that today, it would be equivalent to a minister going to the alter or pulpit drunk. It would be a desecration and an abomination unto God and unacceptable.
Hi there!

:wave:

And I am the first to say, you are entitled to your opinion, but it remains--your opinion

~malaka~

[dignitized]

Malaka: Agreed and we should all make it clear that our possitions here are ALL opinion. :) There is no clear cut answer to this question.

[eldermike]

It should be clear that we should honor our teachings. If you think it's sin to eat meat and you eat meat, you have sinned.

[suzie]

The original stance posted by the AOG regarding total abstinence of alcohol is that particular church's conclusion drawn from their interpretation of Scripture.

Personally, we do not drink nor serve alcohol in our home. We have had people bring alcohol to our home via a get together etc, and we do not prohibit them from drinking it here (unless they be under the legal age)... however that is a rarity. Most of our friends do not drink or drink rarely. The reason we have chosen this stance is that we have seen with our own eyes the devastation and destruction that alcohol brings to families, physically, and spiritually. We intentionally decided that we would set an example to be able to have fun and joy without needing to have alcohol involved. It is the same with smoking. And drugs. Are these things sinful? It is all about motive.

[dignitized]

There is a proven gentic perpencity towards abusing alcohol. If you have that in your bloodline - my ALL MEANS avoid it. Alcoholism is one thing that does not run in my family thank God, so it was never taboo nor mysterious so there was never the lure there to get drunk. In fact, in my 31 years of life I have only been drunk ONCE. I hated the experience so much I have not repeated that mistake in almost 20 years and never intend to repeat it either. But thats me. I would never oblige some one else to be governed my my experiences.

As for the AOG interpretation, it is based, if I'm not mistaken on the notion that Christ made "New wine" at canna which they believe to be non-alcoholic a theory that one need only read the book of Acts to refute.

[didaskalos]

I do not drink because I choose not to. Alcohol is destructive and harms more people than smoking. I do not see a Biblical reason to not take wine with a meal... and there are reports that say a glass a day helps treat something or other (blood pressure??)
Drinking killed my mother when I was 13. I watched her die of liver disease. I saw the effects of alcohol on my family and others. So my decision is a personal one... not one that is based solely on scripture.
I have no problem with anyone who takes wine with a meal. I do question the rationality of drinking for the purpose of getting wasted.

[Knight]

I have no problem with anyone who takes wine with a meal. I do question the rationality of drinking for the purpose of getting wasted.
There is no rationality in that.

[suzie]

Bro Max-

They do believe that alcoholism has genetic properties, however, they have not isolated the causative genetic link that I am aware of. However, that does not mean that those who do not have this in their family linage that they are safe from becoming an alcoholic. It penetrates every race, level of intellect, gender, and heritage. It is estimated one in every 3 persons have a problem with alcohol.

[dignitized]

suzie: Even if there is a genetic perpencity towards abusing alcohol, that does not give justification or excuse for doing so. I'm not saying that alcoholism is limited to a disease, but there are those who, once they start, become addicted because of their genetics.

Scripture does support the fact that perpencity towards sin can be genetic. God, remember, visits the sins of the father onto the sons even to the 4th generation.

[Foundthelight]

I stopped, not because of a non-existant prohibition, but because I was a drunkard. Abstinance is the only way for me to prevent this sin.

[suzie]

Generational curses is a thread in itself......

If I misunderstood you I apologize, however, you stated something to the effect that if you have alcoholism in your family, then by all means avoid it. My point was that it is in everyone's family. And can be introduced by anyone at any time....

[dignitized]

Suzie: i can be introduced at any time, but that does not mean it is in every family. There is not one single alcoholic in my family out to second cousins. There is not one example of alcoholism in the family trees of either side of my family either. What does exisit is a history of womanizing on my fathers side of the family - but that is another thread.

[suzie]

Well, Brother you would be the rare exception then. Because research shows different.

[dignitized]

Suzie: its all about selfcontrol :)

[Knight]

Suzie: its all about selfcontrol :)
Aren't most sin issues?

[suzie]

Not sure what your point is there

[dignitized]

knight: true.


Suzie: my point is, even if you have a weakness towards some sin, that does not excuse you to do that sinful thing.

[suzie]

Well, you are correct, however, we many times dont know our weaknesses until they are a problem. There are many factors that play into these areas. None that cant be overcome through Christ.

[Ben_Hur]

The bible commands us to be sober minded. One of the requirements of men who would be Elders or Deacons is that they are "not given to much wine" in other words, not a drunkard. Drinking in moderation? I believe many in the bible did so without sin. Our Lord being one of them.

Consider this, we are also commanded not to be a stumbling block. If my beer on the table while my family and I are out to dinner gives the impression that I am a hypocrite as I say grace am I still without sin? If I argue so much in favor of my drink that I cause an unbeliever to have a false view of Christianity am I not allowing my drink to be a stumbling block? While drinking in moderation is, in my opinion, acceptable I should always be willing to set it aside to serve others properly.I'm with Gabriel on this, only I wish my reasonings for not drinking were as noble. First of all, I get horrible heartburn (but that doesn't stop me from eating Pizza ;) ). Second of all, it was one of the few "vices" I had the capability of stopping without much hardship - I never really liked the taste, except for some beers.

But I have to relay this story. Back when I used to drink, I was a christian, but still drank. I was playing a softball game at a park in a rather...run down part of town. Near the field was a drinking fountain that I used ( I had forgotten to bring a water bottle). Later that evening, my stomach turned VERY sour. I figured it was the water.

Anyway, I had a friend that brewed his own beer and hard cider. He had given me a hard cider a few weeks ago. I had not drunk it since it was REALLY hard! Well, I'm sitting there with a sour stomach when Paul's letter to Timothy comes to mind, you know, take some wine for your stomach..

Well I drank that hard cider (yuk!). And, within a couple of hours, my stomach was fine ^_^

Now that is Biblical teachings in application!

[dignitized]

yup because the alcohol in the cider killed the bacteria in your stomach. :) MODERATION moderation MoDeRaTiOn! :D

[dignitized]

being a t-totaller can be just as much a stumbling block as drinking can be.

[suzie]

Its all about attitude and motive.....what is in our hearts

[dignitized]

suzie: too true. :) what's in your heart not what you drink.

[blessed2]

Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
Wasn't this a certain sect of priests like Levite priests or was it nazarenes?
Like a covenant.....no booze....don'tcut your hair like samson?
Just curious.
And yes Jesus was a practicing Jew.
Also, watered down or not, drink enough and you'll get drunk.