How Can We be more Gracious?

[Ivy]

For all of you who trounced Jim47 for his well-intentioned friendly greeting and good wishes for us all at Christmas........THUMBS DOWN.

I'm sure you've made a wonderful impression of the gracious spirit of Messianics.

[A_Pioneer]

For all of you who trounced Jim47 for his well-intentioned friendly greeting and good wishes for us all at Christmas........THUMBS DOWN.

I'm sure you've made a wonderful impression of the gracious spirit of Messianics.
'Way to go! Grace?
I personally didn't comment one way or the other, BUT!

I would ask you with a cross in your intro, did it ever occur to you that this man was sent to us as a moderater? That being the case and he was here for a while, he did not know how he would recieved with that gesture? I think not! Kinda 'wooden-headed' if you ask me!
Go into a crowded theatre and yell fire and expect an orderly exit of that place. Yeah, right!!!!!!

As usual, those with your sign have tried to shame the wrong party. And that is the 'truth.'

Shalom

[Ivy]

Better to be kindhearted and wooden-headed than self-centeredly wrapped up in one's own hypersensitivity & overreactions.

[simchat_torah]

I see two sides to this...

1) It was terribly disrespectful to not acknowledge and thank someone for their kind spirit in posting a warm greeting in the MJ forum.

2) Yet at the same time, this person should have known not to post Christmas Greetings to people who don't celebrate Christmas. It is like taking the time to cook your Jewish neighbors a nice dinner to welcome them to the neighborhood, only to be upset when they don't eat your pork roast.

[A_Pioneer]

Better to be kindhearted and wooden-headed than self-centeredly wrapped up in one's own hypersensitivity & overreactions.
There you go again, Grace!

Talk of the 'kettle calling the pot black', you take the cake!

Missed a golden oportunity to keep your mouth shut!
Both you and I!

Lets drop it! Okay?

Shalom

[Tea]

Ivy I have not 1 doubt, that, if at Passover, I went into another church forum, and wished them a happy passover, that I would not be soundly rebuked about how we are no longer under the law, and we dn't need to keep these Jewish festivals, God did away with them, we are under grace, not bondage, we now keep the day of assention, yada yada yada.

From what I read, people were explaining to Jim why we don't keep christmas. Are we not allowed to explain this?
Tracey

[ChavaK]

I see two sides to this...

1) It was terribly disrespectful to not acknowledge and thank someone for their kind spirit in posting a warm greeting in the MJ forum.

Agreed....


2) Yet at the same time, this person should have known not to post Christmas Greetings to people who don't celebrate Christmas. Maybe he honestly did not know people here do not celebrate
Christmas....he should have been given the benefit of the doubt
and politely told what people here do or do not observe......

[simchat_torah]

I went back and re-read the thread, and the whole interchange did seem very polite (until the last couple of posts). Everyone acted quite graciously. I'm not so sure the whole community needed reprimanding, possibly just a pm sent to the individual who made the last few posts imo.

[A_Pioneer]

And maybe Mars is a candy bar, a red one!

Shalom

[ChavaK]

Ivy I have not 1 doubt, that, if at Passover, I went into another church forum, and wished them a happy passover, that I would not be soundly rebuked about how we are no longer under the law, and we dn't need to keep these Jewish festivals, God did away with them, we are under grace, not bondage, we now keep the day of assention, yada yada yada.

It's a bit of a different situation....the Messianic Forum is
listed in the Christian area under Congregations....so I
would guess he presumed, incorrectly, that people at
the forum observe Christmas. It would have been a
different story I think if the Forum was listed elsewhere
(in the NCR area, for instance)....
:wave:

[ChavaK]

I went back and re-read the thread, and the whole interchange did seem very polite (until the last couple of posts). Everyone acted quite graciously. I'm not so sure the whole community needed reprimanding, possibly just a pm sent to the individual who made the last few posts imo.

I just reread the thread too....and see where Jim truly did not
know people here do not celebrate Christmas, offered an
apology, and offered to delete the thread.....

[simchat_torah]

Yup.

[Tonks]

I agree, Ivy.

[A_Pioneer]

Mt 7:4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye?

[Tishri1]

I agree that some folks here were rude and maybe they didnt mean to come off that way(there is still time to apoligize:))

the truth be told our friend was floored with what he received to his offer of friendship, BUT

hearts can still change and maybe we can use this as a lesson learned and be more welcoming and courteous next time:prayer:

[visionary]

With three other threads on the subject of Christmas aspects, it might be a first clue that it is controversial issue in this corner.

What Jim47 thread has caused is in house fighting over how to handle him coming into our corner and giving us a greeting like that and who is right in the way it was handled. It is sad to see that we are not united on the subject. It is sad that we are divided over how to handle outsiders greeting on the subject.

Maybe we can discuss the best way to both educate and being polite over incorrect greetings. We do have passover coming and Happy Easter greeting may be coming our way. So lets work on not so much the past but on the future and how we can proceed unitedly regarding our responses to outside comments and influences.

[Tishri1]

:wave:

[SingingElk]

Sending him a polite private message would have been the best course of action instead of jumping down his throat. I am one of those who don't celebrate Christmas, so the gesture is pretty meaningless though well intended.

[simchat_torah]

I didn't see anyone jump down his throat. Also, I saw nothing but respect from Jim once it was pointed out the MJ's don't celebrate Christmas.

IMO, this thread was pointless for the most part. Issues should have been taken up with the individuals instead of reprimanding the whole community.

[ContraMundum]

It was disgraceful. I was embarrased. What is worse is that as was seen in another thread many people calling themselves Messianic do celebrate Christmas, but some who don't pontificated for all- which was out of line.

Jim's love for us was turned into an opportunity to preach like a bunch of heartless religious spirits. It was senseless, badly handled and I pray that this won't happen again. Yuk.

[christinepro]

Shalom!

[Ivy]

It's a bit of a different situation....the Messianic Forum is
listed in the Christian area under Congregations....so I
would guess he presumed, incorrectly, that people at
the forum observe Christmas. It would have been a
different story I think if the Forum was listed elsewhere
(in the NCR area, for instance)....
:wave:

I agree; it would be easy to think that anyone under the Christian heading would be celebrating Christmas. It was a natural & innocent assumption. Isn't there something in the Torah about being kind to aliens, Torah-observant folks?

I think it's a good idea to ask ourselves: How would *we like to be treated when venturing into a "foreign country," so to speak?

Would we feel welcomed if people expected us to automatically know all their customs, if they responded angrily when we made an innocent gaff? Probably not.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe someone reported Jim47 for his kind & friendly greeting.

For crying out loud, don't make a career out of being hypersensitive. Try to be a little less self-involved in your own feelings and think of the feelings of others........try to show a little more of the character of Yeshua.

[ChavaK]

duplicate post deleted

[A_Pioneer]

I didn't see anyone jump down his throat. Also, I saw nothing but respect from Jim once it was pointed out the MJ's don't celebrate Christmas.

IMO, this thread was pointless for the most part. Issues should have been taken up with the individuals instead of reprimanding the whole community.

IMO, the OP had a point and made it very well!
Succeeded at what it was intended to do.
IMO, Jim47, a 60 year old who was sent to be moderator on this section "should" have had a clue as to the nature of the beast or "should" have read up on the area he would be taking care of.
I think that when the rules are broken by outsiders who do not bother to read the rules and they cry foul, they, not those who are here according to the rules, should be reprimanded.

I made several posts sugesting that the OP drop it and quoted a proper scripture, but "the beat goes on."

Shalom

[Talmidah]

2) Yet at the same time, this person should have known not to post Christmas Greetings to people who don't celebrate Christmas. Not all Messianics are so vehemently against Christmas. And this is Christianforums.com. This forum is in the Christian section. Christmas is widely observed among most Christians. It was simply a fellowship thread extending a kind greeting to fellow Christians. People could have simply accepted it for what it was and not made a big deal out of it. I was wished a Merry Christmas many times at work during the past month by people who know I'm Jewish. I simply appreciate the intent behind the gesture and don't lecture them about their "rudeness" or "ignorance".

[Talmidah]

I think that when the rules are broken by outsiders who do not bother to read the rules and they cry foul, they, not those who are here according to the rules, should be reprimanded.

I made several posts sugesting that the OP drop it and quoted a proper scripture, but "the beat goes on."

ShalomPerhaps I need to review the new rules, but in the meantime, is it really against the rules to wish someone "Merry Christmas" on Christmas?



ETA:
Rules (http://christianforums.com/rules):


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[ChavaK]

I was wished a Merry Christmas many times at work during the past month by people who know I'm Jewish. I simply appreciate the intent behind the gesture and don't lecture them about their rudeness or ignorance.

I also don't make a big deal about people wishing me Merry Christmas.
I even had one woman ask me if Chanukah is when Jews
celebrate Jesus' day of birth.....

[Talmidah]

I also don't make a big deal about people wishing me Merry Christmas.
I even had one woman ask me if Chanukah is when Jews
celebrate Jesus' day of birth.....Too funny....I've been asked the exact same thing!! I appreciate that someone takes the time to send a kind greeting my way. If it doesn't apply to me (ie a Christimas wish), I thank them and wish them well in turn. There is too much that is truly ugly in this world without going around getting offended by things like that.

[A_Pioneer]

Perhaps I need to review the new rules, but in the meantime, is it really against the rules to wish someone "Merry Christmas" on Christmas?
The OP was the subject! This thread! The OP is not on the approved list of posters!
The OP was INFLAMATORY! Sorry, I had to speak up.
But, it seems no-one is listening.
I let the "Greeting" pass me by, but the OP's not using what the OP suggest MJ's do, and with such contempt and not seeing three fingers pointing back at the OP, makes me want to puke!!!!!


Sorry to make a bigger issue of this, but it needed to be aired!

Shalom And I do mean Shalom/Peace

[ChavaK]

Too funny....I've been asked the exact same thing!! Really? That's the first time I've ever been
asked that question!

I appreciate that someone takes the time to send a kind greeting my way. If it doesn't apply to me (ie a Christimas wish), I thank them and wish them well in turn.
Same thing I do...it never hurts to be gracious.

There is too much that is truly ugly in this world without going around getting offended by things like that.
Agreed! :thumbsup:

[Talmidah]

The OP was the subject! This thread! The OP is not on the approved list of posters!
The OP was INFLAMATORY! Sorry, I had to speak up.
But, it seems no-one is listening.
I let the "Greeting" pass me by, but the OP's not using what the OP suggest MJ's do, and with such contempt and not seeing three fingers pointing back at the OP, makes me want to puke!!!!!

The OP of this thread is indeed on the list of approved posters. She has the same posting rights as anyone with the scroll icon.


The List of Christians who are MJ and can post as one in this forum: (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=31559302#post31559302)



ContraMundum-
Boaz-
Splayed-
Ivy-
SGM4HIM-


each know they can post

these are the ones who have contacted us and have determined to us that they are practising MJ's and support Torah Observance in this place...

[A_Pioneer]

The OP of this thread is indeed on the list of approved posters. She has the same posting rights as anyone with the scroll icon.


The List of Christians who are MJ and can post as one in this forum: (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=31559302#post31559302)Okay, wrong on one issue, flaming and inflamatory are the same are they not!?

I shall take my own advise and drop it!!!!

Shalom

[ContraMundum]

I was wished a Merry Christmas many times at work during the past month by people who know I'm Jewish. I simply appreciate the intent behind the gesture and don't lecture them about their "rudeness" or "ignorance".

Same here. I get asked all the time. They know I celebrate Chanukah, but they still ask if I celebrate Christmas. I say "yes, but I don't have a tree or have Santa visit". I then tell them about Yeshua and St Nicholas (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=38) the man who gave to the poor. I have such a great life. I get a full package of spiritual joy every December. :)

It's a great opportunity to share good news. :)

[SingingElk]

Personally I don't celebrate Christmas and avoid Christmas dinners, parties etc. But I am not harsh toward Christians who do celebrate it. It does not set a very good example for our less educated brothers.

[Gwenyfur]

Better to be kindhearted and wooden-headed than self-centeredly wrapped up in one's own hypersensitivity & overreactions.
I'll 2nd that

It was disgraceful. I was embarrased. What is worse is that as was seen in another thread many people calling themselves Messianic do celebrate Christmas, but some who don't pontificated for all- which was out of line.

Jim's love for us was turned into an opportunity to preach like a bunch of heartless religious spirits. It was senseless, badly handled and I pray that this won't happen again. Yuk. and this too!

Too funny....I've been asked the exact same thing!! I appreciate that someone takes the time to send a kind greeting my way. If it doesn't apply to me (ie a Christimas wish), I thank them and wish them well in turn. There is too much that is truly ugly in this world without going around getting offended by things like that.
As we've all heard in the past "It's the thought that counts"

Someone may not always be correct in their greetings or well wishes...but certainly is it the thought and love behind that greeting that matters...

[ContraMundum]

Someone may not always be correct in their greetings or well wishes...but certainly is it the thought and love behind that greeting that matters...

Exactly. The story is told of a young boy who saw his father working hard mowing the lawn on a scorching day. Seeing his father sweating and looking like he needed refreshment, he took a glass from the sink, filled it with water, and took it to his dad outside. He didn't realise that the glass was dirty, and the water was quite warm. Still, his father drank it thanked the boy. His love for his son outweighed the imperfection of his son's offering.

Our Heavenly Father is like that too.

Why aren't we?

[Ivy]

Exactly. The story is told of a young boy who saw his father working hard mowing the lawn on a scorching day. Seeing his father sweating and looking like he needed refreshment, he took a glass from the sink, filled it with water, and took it to his dad outside. He didn't realise that the glass was dirty, and the water was quite warm. Still, his father drank it thanked the boy. His love for his son outweighed the imperfection of his son's offering.

Our Heavenly Father is like that too.

Why aren't we?

The other day I found a scrap of paper written by my son when he was 4 or 5, from vacation bible school, which said, "I LOEV YOU MOM." That was so dear & precious to me, even more so with the cute spelling mistake. It was absolutely endearing......that's the way God feels about us, and I hope we are all learning to feel that way about our brothers & sisters in the Lord.

[Tishri1]

Perhaps I need to review the new rules, but in the meantime, is it really against the rules to wish someone "Merry Christmas" on Christmas?



ETA:
Rules (http://christianforums.com/rules):no but this is one of the rules
Use the brain God gave you. Think before you post. Think about how your post may affect someone else.
I was very sad and embarrassed

[Tonks]

You also forgot the rule about choosing not to be offended...

[visionary]

New Year's Resolution

Choose not to word in a offending way, but still be clear on the truth.

[Tishri1]

You also forgot the rule about choosing not to be offended...
Oh yeh that one too

If you think you are being flamed, choose *not* to be offended, but instead take a break, and communicate, rather than escalating or accusing others.

[Tishri1]

New Year's Resolution

Choose not to word in a offending way, but still be clear on the truth.:thumbsup: yes I love this:hug:

[Ivy]

I'd like to clarify at this point that I did not make a "blanket" accusation......there was a qualifier in there, namely, to anyone who was rude to Jim47. What I've said obviously doesn't apply to anyone who was not rude.

I felt it was o.k. to publicly post my opinion, since the original episode was also public. Someone got publicly whacked and I felt they should likewise be publicly defended.

Usually I would have tried to frame my post in a more positive tone, and maybe I should have, but I felt bad for the innocent party. Guess it's the mother bear in me. :sorry:

And I think in the long run, it is edifying if it sensitizes people and encourages us all to be more gentle....which of course I need to work on myself at times.

[ContraMundum]

Thank you Ivy for giving us the opportunity to express our support and love for Jim by opening this thread.

[Gwenyfur]

I think you did a fine job Ivy.

[Lulav]

I am just seeing this thread now. Since I am the one who spoke out about this, and was reprimanded already , I don't think another christian need to do so. I am sorry my words offended, but I guess it's more important that we not be offensive than to constantly be offended and misunderstood and have the right to speak out about it in what is supposed to be our forum :(.

Farewell

[A_Pioneer]

I am just seeing this thread now. Since I am the one who spoke out about this, and was reprimanded already , I don't think another christian need to do so. I am sorry my words offended, but I guess it's more important that we not be offensive than to constantly be offended and misunderstood and have the right to speak out about it in what is supposed to be our forum :(.

Farewell
Very good! Luvav, I hope this does not mean what it looks like, that you are leaving? Please don't go!

I am the one who took offence to the blanket!

Sorry I snapped.

Shalom

[Tea]

Originally Posted by visionary http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=42215888#post42215888)
New Year's Resolution

Choose not to word in a offending way, but still be clear on the truth.


Do you really think that this is possible? I would think that the majority of us would strive to do this, but if someone is going to take offence, it doesn't matter how much sugar you wrap the words in, they are going to take offence.

Lulav has a point, don't we, on our own board have the right of defence? Maybe defence is not the right word but you know what I am trying to ask.
Doesn't everything otherwise become very PC and no one has an opinion of anything?

Confused.
Tracey

[Tishri1]

Do you really think that this is possible? I would think that the majority of us would strive to do this, but if someone is going to take offence, it doesn't matter how much sugar you wrap the words in, they are going to take offence.

Lulav has a point, don't we, on our own board have the right of defence? Maybe defence is not the right word but you know what I am trying to ask.
Doesn't everything otherwise become very PC and no one has an opinion of anything?

Confused.
Traceyhere's the rules guysRULES



The names or titles of God, including Jesus Christ and the Persons of the Trinity (Father, Son, or Holy Spirit), in any language, are not to be used as expletives or interjections or in an abusive, mocking, or insulting way.
Sharing of information about one's beliefs, for instance by quoting Bible verses or witnessing, is encouraged. Honest debate and discussion regarding the existence and nature of God is allowed and welcome. Mockery of Christians, Christians beliefs, and the Christian God are not.
Promotion of the religion or rituals of Satanism is strictly prohibited. Promotion is defined as the active attempt to sway others to Satanic beliefs and/or practices.
Flaming, baiting, trolling, or feeding trolls is not allowed. This also applies to groups. In other words, play nice, don't hurt others, nor call them names.
If you think you are being flamed, choose *not* to be offended, but instead take a break, and communicate, rather than escalating or accusing others.
Defamation is not allowed.
Harassment of another member is not allowed.
Threads which are off topic for the individual forums are not allowed, and substantial derails of threads are not looked upon in a favorable fashion.
Congregational Forums wishing to remain safe havens may choose to limit debate to members of their own denomination, insist that all posts conform to their creed etc.
Age and or gender restrictions are to be respected.
Reasonable confidentiality will be respected by Staff and Members, alike.
Issues with staff decisions should be taken to the staff member, then the reconciliation team, period. Don't post them, don't PM them to others, don't take them to Lee.
Do not say racist or sexist things. If the swear filter is activated, edit your post, don't try to bypass it. Don't post graphics or text you would not be comfortable sharing with someone's grandmother.
Don't break the law, don't violate copyright, threaten others, or do or promote anything illegal.
Don't spam in threads or sigs, don't promote get rich quick schemes anywhere on the site.
Use the brain God gave you. Think before you post. Think about how your post may affect someone else.christianforums.com Rules Ver 1.4 2 November 2007 04:00PM CDTflaming others even in your own forum is a rule violation

[visionary]

That is where our learning curve needs to come into play.. It will soon be easter and there will be those who for whatever reason come and wish us a Happy Easter.

So how do we politely educate them in the matter of truth without being offensive?

[Tea]

So how do we politely educate them in the matter of truth without being offensive?

I guess that is the question that I was trying to ask.
Thankyou Vis.

Tracey

[Tea]

But then the questions begs, "who's truth" huh.

T

[Tishri1]

That is where our learning curve needs to come into play.. It will soon be easter and there will be those who for whatever reason come and wish us a Happy Easter.

So how do we politely educate them in the matter of truth without being offensive?
Yes that would be the big question :thumbsup: and there is an answer :thumbsup: I would love for Bananna to maybe come in and couch us all on how to be a light with out being a flame;)
would that be ok?

I really love what she has shared so far and like Vis said we have a few weeks to get this under our belts

bananna?

[ContraMundum]

This is a no brainer.

Visitor: "Happy Easter MF"

Forum Members: "Thank you, not all of us celebrate it but we appreciate your well wishes"

How hard is that?

The "educating" of visitors is found in threads discussing the topics, so if people want to learn about the manifold perspectives of the members of this forum, they can search the threads.

:)

[visionary]

or..

MJ: Thank you, come back and celebrate the Passover with us next month.

[HaReb]

If they are wise they probably won't venture to say anything now, at least on this forum, so the 'problem' may not appear.

What ever happened to cross-cultural ministry and mission?

[Colabomb]

Ivy I have not 1 doubt, that, if at Passover, I went into another church forum, and wished them a happy passover, that I would not be soundly rebuked about how we are no longer under the law, and we dn't need to keep these Jewish festivals, God did away with them, we are under grace, not bondage, we now keep the day of assention, yada yada yada.

From what I read, people were explaining to Jim why we don't keep christmas. Are we not allowed to explain this?
Tracey

Actually, if you came to the Anglican board, most of us would be slightly confused, but we'd return the blessing and say "Blessed Passover" Back. We don't have the attitude over there that our ways are the only ways, and we would truly wish for you to have a blessed passover that brings you closer to our Mutual lord.

Some of our Jewish Members would probably respond very favorably to such a greeting.

[Colabomb]

What ever happened to cross-cultural ministry and mission?

Attitudes such as this:

The Israelites are the teachers of God's word

the evangelicals(gentiles) are the students

the student is trying to teach the teacher?

Can be hurtful to that.

I am not accusing everyone, or even most, posters on this forum of being guilty of such an attitude. But I can tell you that as a Gentile Christian Curious about the Jewish Roots, I can tell you this place can feel quite judgmental and hostile to Gentiles, and even Jews in other Christian Traditions.

Now, again I reiterate that I have made many friends here and learned quite a bit. But sometimes it feels as if my presence is barely tolerated, and that some would rather i not be here.

[visionary]

Attitudes such as this:



Can be hurtful to that.

I am not accusing everyone, or even most, posters on this forum of being guilty of such an attitude. But I can tell you that as a Gentile Christian Curious about the Jewish Roots, I can tell you this place can feel quite judgmental and hostile to Gentiles, and even Jews in other Christian Traditions.

Now, again I reiterate that I have made many friends here and learned quite a bit. But sometimes it feels as if my presence is barely tolerated, and that some would rather i not be here.I have noticed that quite a few of your postings have been about how you feel instead of the subject at hand.... Can we get back to OP now?

[Tea]

Actually, if you came to the Anglican board, most of us would be slightly confused, but we'd return the blessing and say "Blessed Passover" Back. We don't have the attitude over there that our ways are the only ways, and we would truly wish for you to have a blessed passover that brings you closer to our Mutual lord.

You know Cola, I would pray that the above would be the reaction that I would get. Admittedly I haven't been posting in the above mentioned area, but from recent talks in other areas, the case was not so, and I only posted what the mild reactions were, not the heated reactions.
But as Tish has pointed out we are not allowed to do that.
So mute point.
Tracey


.

[Bananna]

Yes that would be the big question :thumbsup: and there is an answer :thumbsup: I would love for Bananna to maybe come in and couch us all on how to be a light with out being a flame;)
would that be ok?

I really love what she has shared so far and like Vis said we have a few weeks to get this under our belts

bananna?

Plainly stating what can and can not be posted in Messianic Forum would enable us to simply delete with a private explaination... we can simply replace it with

"Seasons' Greeting" no explination necessary. They are supposed to read our rules before posting but I suspect many do not.

This may be difficult for some to accept but some are in the position where they cannot compromise and I do not think they should canstantly be made to compromise here.

Wide spectra... What ministers to the weakest and more needy?

bananna

[Talmidah]

Plainly stating what can and can not be posted in Messianic Forum would enable us to simply delete with a private explaination... we can simply replace it with

"Seasons' Greeting" no explination necessary. They are supposed to read our rules before posting but I suspect many do not.

This may be difficult for some to accept but some are in the position where they cannot compromise and I do not think they should canstantly be made to compromise here. Hey bananna, Can you link to the rules where it states that Christmas and Easter greetings are not allowed here? I was trying to find it but I'm getting over a cold right now and my brain is still a little foggy. :sorry:


EDIT:
Or do you mean that it should be in the rules that coming in to post "Merry Christmas" greetings is prohibited

[Talmidah]

Visitor: "Happy Easter MF"

Forum Members: "Thank you, not all of us celebrate it but we appreciate your well wishes"

How hard is that?

I agree 100%.

[LadyGarnetRose]

Oy vey das meshuganas! (ugh the nonsense already!)

I keep leaving and coming back, I must be a masocist.

Somebody in Messiah gives you a greeting of Merry Christmas, you say Merry Christmas back! Or Happy Channuka and a Merry Christmas as well.

That Somebody took the time out of their day to actually bless a bunch of strangers who are also supposed to be brothers and sisters in Messiah should be taken with love not hate.

Now to continually beat a dead horse to tow the plow PECH you all should be ashamed.

And yes, we are all supposed to be adults here, and this is a congregation area, it's not like Ivy went out on the net and blasted ALL the Messianics of Christian Forums for being UNGRACIOUS HOSTS. Those that felt the need to speak up against Ivy that didn't make a rude comment to Jim should re-read the story of Lot.

[HaReb]

It has to be said, of course, that the birth of Y'shua (whether we mark it in October or December) was actually for the benefit of the Jews; it was never meant to be a Gentile celebration - that rightly comes about at the Feast of Epiphany (if we hold to the December birth - adjust as necessary for the October birthdate) when the Word was made manifest to Gentiles. Just as Sh'ul writes in his letter to the Romans, G_d's way of doing things is always first to the Jews THEN to the Gentiles - His Son's birth was no exception so, as far as I can see, there is rejoicing then that a Gentile (assuming that to be the case?) has wished his fellow believers a happy time of remembrance of the day when G_d sent His Son to the Jews!

Let's rejoice that G_d loved His chosen people so much He sent His Son to them and to no other nation, initially! We are doubly blessed that He did that, aren't we?

Let's regain the birth of Messiah for the Jews, yes, but let's rejoice that AFTER that He made Him known to the Gentiles and grafted them into the common root. Shame on us if we fall out about such an amazing act of love - mmm, thinking about it we just might have been lacking in that if the posts about this incident are anything to go by!

PS: Epiphany is 12 days after 'Christmas' - now, I wonder, does this signify that the 12 tribes were given time to find Messiah after which the Word was given to the Gentiles? Mmm - thought provoking?

[ChavaK]

This is a no brainer.

Visitor: "Happy Easter MF"

Forum Members: "Thank you, not all of us celebrate it but we appreciate your well wishes"

How hard is that?

The "educating" of visitors is found in threads discussing the topics, so if people want to learn about the manifold perspectives of the members of this forum, they can search the threads.


:thumbsup:

[Gwenyfur]

Plainly stating what can and can not be posted in Messianic Forum would enable us to simply delete with a private explaination... we can simply replace it with

"Seasons' Greeting" no explination necessary. They are supposed to read our rules before posting but I suspect many do not.

This may be difficult for some to accept but some are in the position where they cannot compromise and I do not think they should canstantly be made to compromise here.

Wide spectra... What ministers to the weakest and more needy?

bananna
More censorship is not the answer...

No matter the greeting, it should be able to accepted in the spirit it was meant.

A greeting of Merry Christmas, Happy Easter, etc shoudl be able to be accepted in the spirit of Messiah with a Thank You, while I/we appreciate the wish of joy in our Savior and Messiah, understand we as a faith do not celebrate this holiday.

A short following of "We celebrate His birth durring Sukkot" or "We celebrate His Crucifixion and Resurrection during Passover" would be quite sufficient...and also leaves the door open for them to ask "why" leaving both parties with the peace of love of Messiah intact, without hard feelings, as well as a chance to teach.

[Ivy]

This is a no brainer.

Visitor: "Happy Easter MF"

Forum Members: "Thank you, not all of us celebrate it but we appreciate your well wishes"

How hard is that?

The "educating" of visitors is found in threads discussing the topics, so if people want to learn about the manifold perspectives of the members of this forum, they can search the threads.

:)

I third this. :thumbsup: Don't make it complicated; it's not all that hard.

Someone made a point about having the right of defence.....I think it's easier to be a good ambassador for what we believe in, to have our words "seasoned with grace," like the Scriptures say--if we aren't excessively honed in on the notion of attack & defence.

I know that verbal attacks on Jews & on Messianic Jews happen on CF, and I'm not denying that reality at all-- but a friendly holiday greeting is NOT an attack that needs responding "defence". To think that way is being defensIVE, and being defensIVE doesn't make for the greatest witness.

[simchat_torah]

On the flip side of the coin, on Channukah an Orthodox man at my job wished many people there "Happy Hannukah", only to receive many angry glares or Christians who flatly stated, "I don't celebrate Hannukah, I celebrate Jesus' Birth; Christmas."

I think people are too touchy regarding religion in general. Everyone just needs to lighten up a bit and respect that we all have differences.

[Talmidah]

On the flip side of the coin, on Channukah an Orthodox man at my job wished many people there "Happy Hannukah", only to receive many angry glares or Christians who flatly stated, "I don't celebrate Hannukah, I celebrate Jesus' Birth; Christmas." Well I wouldn't go around wishing everyone Happy Hannukah either because the chances of people in a workplace celebrating it are very small. But most people do celebrate Christmas and being on a Christian forum in the Christian section...of course it would be assumed that most here celebrate it as fellow Christians.

I think people are too touchy regarding religion in general. Everyone just needs to lighten up a bit and respect that we all have differences. :thumbsup:

[Colabomb]

On the flip side of the coin, on Channukah an Orthodox man at my job wished many people there "Happy Hannukah", only to receive many angry glares or Christians who flatly stated, "I don't celebrate Hannukah, I celebrate Jesus' Birth; Christmas."

I think people are too touchy regarding religion in general. Everyone just needs to lighten up a bit and respect that we all have differences.

agreed.

[simchat_torah]

Well I wouldn't go around wishing everyone Happy Hannukah either because the chances of people in a workplace celebrating it are very small. But most people do celebrate Christmas and being on a Christian forum in the Christian section...of course it would be assumed that most here celebrate it as fellow Christians.
Then someone needs to tell the greeters at Walmart not to wish everyone a "Merry Christmas".

Or...

We can recognize that we all love our celebrations and our joy pours over to others. If we don't happen to celebrate the same thing, no matter... share in the joy of others.

Know what I mean?

[ContraMundum]

Then someone needs to tell the greeters at Walmart not to wish everyone a "Merry Christmas".

Or...

We can recognize that we all love our celebrations and our joy pours over to others. If we don't happen to celebrate the same thing, no matter... share in the joy of others.

Know what I mean?

Good point. :thumbsup:

[Tishri1]

this is a very nice thread so far, lots of constructive posts, thanks for all the tips and responses and for the desire to love one another too in here , that blesses me the most.....

[Ivy]

I think people are too touchy regarding religion in general.

Gotta agree with ya', Simhat. :thumbsup: Very true.

[SisterKatie]

very interesting... For a new-comer, can I get like a short summary of why some of you don't and some of you do celebrate Christmas?
- Are you agaist all celebrations or only Christmas?
- I see Christmas as a joyful day for going to church and celebrating the Messhiah has come.. Its kinda like we celebrate birthdays where I come from.. the same way we celebrate Yeshua's birthday with a party:)
-When I was in Israel the messianic congregations there celebrated Easter... and I know they also celebrated Hanukkah..
So.. why not the Birth of Jesus?
Please.. I am ignorant of this but I think your explanations can prevent me from making a fool out of myself many times in the future when I visit my friends in Israel... Yeshua knows I love my brothers and sisters among the Messianics.. I just wanna understand your reasoning like I understand the reasoning of most of my Evangelical brothers and sisters..
I am Catholic by the way :)
I look forward to hearing from you all.
Ps.. I am sure Jim47 is not angry at you.. he surely loves you all even if some made a mistake.

[Gwenyfur]

very interesting... For a new-comer, can I get like a short summary of why some of you don't and some of you do celebrate Christmas?
- Are you agaist all celebrations or only Christmas?
- I see Christmas as a joyful day for going to church and celebrating the Messhiah has come.. Its kinda like we celebrate birthdays where I come from.. the same way we celebrate Yeshua's birthday with a party:)
-When I was in Israel the messianic congregations there celebrated Easter... and I know they also celebrated Hanukkah..
So.. why not the Birth of Jesus?
Please.. I am ignorant of this but I think your explanations can prevent me from making a fool out of myself many times in the future when I visit my friends in Israel... Yeshua knows I love my brothers and sisters among the Messianics.. I just wanna understand your reasoning like I understand the reasoning of most of my Evangelical brothers and sisters..
I am Catholic by the way :)
I look forward to hearing from you all.
Ps.. I am sure Jim47 is not angry at you.. he surely loves you all even if some made a mistake.
Mostly 'cause we celebrate Messiah's birth during Sukkot :)
http://www.messiahpa.org/succot.htm

http://users.cybertime.net/~ajgood/HBJ.htm

[A_Pioneer]

very interesting... For a new-comer, can I get like a short summary of why some of you don't and some of you do celebrate Christmas?
- Are you agaist all celebrations or only Christmas?
- I see Christmas as a joyful day for going to church and celebrating the Messhiah has come.. Its kinda like we celebrate birthdays where I come from.. the same way we celebrate Yeshua's birthday with a party:)
-When I was in Israel the messianic congregations there celebrated Easter... and I know they also celebrated Hanukkah..
So.. why not the Birth of Jesus?
Please.. I am ignorant of this but I think your explanations can prevent me from making a fool out of myself many times in the future when I visit my friends in Israel... Yeshua knows I love my brothers and sisters among the Messianics.. I just wanna understand your reasoning like I understand the reasoning of most of my Evangelical brothers and sisters..
I am Catholic by the way :)
I look forward to hearing from you all.
Ps.. I am sure Jim47 is not angry at you.. he surely loves you all even if some made a mistake.

Shalom SisterKatie;

Pray tell, how do you equate "He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;" and December 25! Doesn't the 25th of December come at the end of the year and before day one is not yet on the calendar? The scripture goes on to say that he is before all things in him all things hold together! Oh, my how do we celebrate his birthday that is "before time"????????

Here are the moedim/appointed times of the Lord;
De 16:16 "Three times a year all your males shall appear before the LORD your God at the place which he will choose: at the feast of unleavened bread, at the feast of weeks, and at the feast of booths. They shall not appear before the LORD empty-handed;

Christian holidays are not from the "Mouth of God", but the "minds of men." Would you like to be referenced to the two scriptures wherein Yeshua/Jesus refers to them?
Mt. 4:4 and Mk. 7:7

Please tell me where God canceled his appointed times?

I have never found the scripture where he does this.

I do recall only two birthday celebrations in the bible and at both of them someone lost his head! My, my do you advocate the loss of a head on Dec. 25? Just joking. I know you do not!

Shalom

[HaReb]

Sister Katie,

I trust you might have read my earlier post on this but, Christmas is man made and didn't even exist as Christmas until the middle ages - it was the English who started Christmas although a certain Roman official declared that 25th December was to be THE day to celebrate his birth. All man made! (so much for the 'first Christmas' it certainly wasn't in 4BC!!). Christmas was actually forbidden by law in the UK in the 17th century because it had no Biblical Authority - a certain King Charles brought it back into being to appease his accusers!

So much for our Saviour's birth! Others have already made the point that Y'shua was not born then, as every minister in the church knows and will admit!!! The clearest answer to when he was born was September/October - both spiritually and symbolically but the church cannot risk changing it after all these years. See Jeremiah 3 and 10 re Christmas trees, too.

The list goes on and on...

Bless you in His name.

[ContraMundum]

Sister Katie- one thing I have noticed is that Christmas means different things to different people- even within this forum. To some, it's a time of celebration remembering the incarnation and a chance to do good works for others. To others, it's a pagan festival and will always be one- they perhaps celebrate the incarnation in other ways, some not at all.

You'll get mixed answers here. I take the middle ground- Christmas means celebrate, remember the incarnation, do good works and spread joy. No law against such things. On the other hand I don't have a Christmas tree or do the Santa thing.

[ContraMundum]

Sister Katie,

I trust you might have read my earlier post on this but, Christmas is man made and didn't even exist as Christmas until the middle ages - it was the English who started Christmas although a certain Roman official declared that 25th December was to be THE day to celebrate his birth. All man made! (so much for the 'first Christmas' it certainly wasn't in 4BC!!). Christmas was actually forbidden by law in the UK in the 17th century because it had no Biblical Authority - a certain King Charles brought it back into being to appease his accusers!

So much for our Saviour's birth! Others have already made the point that Y'shua was not born then, as every minister in the church knows and will admit!!! The clearest answer to when he was born was September/October - both spiritually and symbolically but the church cannot risk changing it after all these years. See Jeremiah 3 and 10 re Christmas trees, too.

The list goes on and on...

Bless you in His name.

Brother Reb- we have records of Dec 25th (and also Jan 6th) being the Feast of the Incarnation way back before the Constantinian edict and later as well (Hippolytus, Julius Africanus, and Clement of Alexandria all mention this). What think ye?

[simchat_torah]

Ha! I'll be different than both of you!

I think the evidence is pretty clear it pre-existed the middle ages, but is shaky at best to say it predated the Constantine Era.

[Gwenyfur]

okay...

/me just shakes her head and sighs

[HaReb]

Sorry, guys, you will not find CHRISTMAS, as such, before about 1410. There were celebrations of a variety of types but not CHRISTMAS! The first CHRISTMAS ever celebrated, as such, was here in England in the 1400's.

PS the distinction is in the word Christmas!

[SisterKatie]

Shalom dear brother :wave:

"Pray tell, how do you equate "He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;" and December 25! Doesn't the 25th of December come at the end of the year and before day one is not yet on the calendar? The scripture goes on to say that he is before all things in him all things hold together! Oh, my how do we celebrate his birthday that is "before time"????????"

So you don't celebrate the birth of the Messhiah into the world because you believe that would jeopardize the truth that Yeshua was with the Father before all time? Its interesting to hear your reasoning and there is nothing wrong with it in itself (not that I have authority to teach you anything of course).. but my own thoughts go more in the line that Yeshua stepped into history as the Incarnate Word of God and therefore He becomes as a human being; a baby that comes to the world on a certain day... a day that we, also in history, may celebrate:) whether this day is called Sukkot or Christmas, is one day or another on the calender is not so crucial. Yeshua sees that it is our love for Him that makes us meditate on His Life. And I know that for many centuries the 25th of December has been the day for us in the Western Church. In Northern Europe there used to be a pagan feast day around that time too: The year was turning, the days became longer again, the light came.. and so the missionaries found that it fits well with the view of Christ as the Light that comes to the world.. it was actually the beginning of the year in terms of the light.. (the Church year begins in december by the way:)

"Here are the moedim/appointed times of the Lord;
De 16:16 "Three times a year all your males shall appear before the LORD your God at the place which he will choose: at the feast of unleavened bread, at the feast of weeks, and at the feast of booths. They shall not appear before the LORD empty-handed;"

I believe these are good. But I also believe that they belong in a Tempel cult where God was still somewhat hidden.. Yeshua- the new Tempel (according to my understanding) has now come and dwelt with His people.. and our hands are always full because He has filled them with Messiah so we never stand empty handed in front of the Father, but we are united with the Messhiah all the time as is written in Hebrews 12: 18-24.
When I was in Israel I noticed that some of my Messianic friends also celebrated Purim.. not because they believe a feast can save them.. oh no, but because God is a God who walks with His People in history and we celebrate His mighty works with joy.
I am only explaining my reasoning to you. For Paul has well stated to us all that we must let no man condemn us because of feast days and sabbaths..

"Christian holidays are not from the "Mouth of God", but the "minds of men." Would you like to be referenced to the two scriptures wherein Yeshua/Jesus refers to them?
Mt. 4:4 and Mk. 7:7"

I believe your first line in this passage is a rather free quotation of the Words in the Bible.. actually I see that you do not practice Sola Scriptura-principle when you come with such a simplistic and harsh judgement. There is actually no reasoning in your last passage here so nothing to argue with. The three big Christian holidays are Passover, Pentecost and the Birth. All these were sovereign acts of God that we commemorate with much gratefulness.

"Please tell me where God canceled his appointed times?I have never found the scripture where he does this."

God never cancels anything, but he might take things to a further and higher level. God continuously walks with His people, the Church.

"I do recall only two birthday celebrations in the bible and at both of them someone lost his head! My, my do you advocate the loss of a head on Dec. 25? Just joking. I know you do not!"

Yeah? well, a lot of children were slaughtered just up to the birth of Yeshua but still the three wise men and the shepherds came and shared the wonderful moment with Miriam and Joseph under the star.
But tell me. Do Messianic Jews not celebrate each others birthday?.. what about your children.. no birthday cake?

Thanks for your time.. I find the line of your theological thinking very interesting.. :thumbsup:
hope to hear from you again...

[SisterKatie]

ContraMundum.

I see you are a scolar of Church history .. that is always a good and useful thing.. I believe that the people who dont know their history are bound to repete it.. ignorance have always been the cause of division.. I have worshipped with so many Christians but its only the ones who have no knowlege about the others who also have very bad ideas about what is going on in a brother's head..
So.. Thanks a lot for being here :hug:

I think the stumbling block here is for many even hidden.. I mean.. the Christmas tree may be one but also the motive for being against christmas can be something rather subconscious.. I know that many Messianic brothers and sisters have been evangelised by people who were against the traditional churches and dont always have nice nor correct things to say about us.. so much illfeeling is passed on.. please do not hesitate to correct me if you think I am wrong.. I would be happy to be wrong in this case.

anyway.. when it comes to the Christmas tree... hehe.. I was brought up in a Lutheran family that always took great pride in decorating the whole house in the whole month of december.. the christmas tree was the center of it all. we put stars and living lights and hearts on it and a star in the top.. and surely it might have been a pagan element before Christianity came to my country but I believe true paganism is always a move of the heart.
I would say that for the Christians that have a Christmas tree.. they use it as a decoration and thats all. oh yes.. we do walk around it hand in hand (does that make me a pagan) and while we walk we sing Christian psalms ..we worship our Lord and Saviour .. beautiful. Its very joyfull.. and the children love it.. I believe there is no evil in it because there is no idolatry in our hearts. besides.. tell me one tree that was not created by the Lord Himself...
We have "baptised the Christmas tree" as in changing its meaning. Thats how I think.. :pink: I also think that whereas we all might not agree fully, we need to understand each other and understanding will bring love.. because we love the same Yeshua :groupray:

Shalom to you all.

[HaReb]

Sister Katie,
Thanks for your replies to CM.
You said to him: God never cancels anything, but he might take things to a further and higher level. God continuously walks with His people, the Church

Are you, therefore claiming that Scripture is not the full, final and complete revelation of G_d to His people.

What, exactly, do you mean by the term 'the Church' in the same quote?

Baptising a tree changes nothing - inanimate objects cannot respond to 'Baptism'. Scripture demands that those being baptised are able to repent and believe in Y'shua. I've yet to meet a tree that can fulfil this basic requirement (or a baby, either!).

[HaReb]

Re the Christmas question - I think you'll find that there were celebrations in the 4th Century, forward but that was the Sun of Righteousness. Since Aurelian December 25th had been marked as the birthday of the Unconquered Sun (not Son). Epiphany pre-dated Christmas and orginated in Alexandria to commemorate the birth of Jesus and the miracle at Cana. Christmas - using that actual word and the root of how it is celebrated today, started in the 1400's.

[SisterKatie]

Dear sister in Yeshua:wave:

"Sister Katie,
Thanks for your replies to CM.
You said to him: "God never cancels anything, but he might take things to a further and higher level. God continuously walks with His people, the Church".
Are you, therefore claiming that Scripture is not the full, final and complete revelation of G_d to His people."

I believe that Scripture it self does not teach Scripture alone but the opposite. I believe Yeshua ha Messhiah is the full final revelation of G-d to His People.. I also believe that Yeshua cannot be limited to the Canon of Scripture.. that He works continuosly among His people though the Holy Spirit, walking with His People and leading His Church. It is written by Paul under inspiration: "this grace was given to me: to preach to the gentiles (...). His intent was that now, through the Church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known"(Eph 3, 7-10).. you notice the dynamics of this passage?
This does mean that the Messhiah is the full revelation, yes, but the Holy Spirit is still to this day deepening and making known what God though Yeshua has already given to us, opening our hearts to understand.. so there is nothing new but yet the seed grows and becomes a tree.

"What, exactly, do you mean by the term 'the Church' in the same quote?"

What does the Sacred Scripture tell you? The Church is the people of God.. all those who are baptised/died with the Messhiah has been raised to new life. The children of God who believe that Yeshua is the anointed Son of G-d.

"Baptising a tree changes nothing - inanimate objects cannot respond to 'Baptism'. Scripture demands that those being baptised are able to repent and believe in Y'shua. I've yet to meet a tree that can fulfil this basic requirement (or a baby, either!)".

Hehe.. you misunderstood me.. or rather.. I was making that easy for you. We do not really baptise a tree.. that would be sick.. Rather is a way of speaking that I borrowed from a philosopher, Kierkegaard.. it only means that we make something which was once not used to serve the Lord, into something that is.. the change happens in the heart.. how we look at things. I think you would agree. Things are what we make them.. just like you cannot claim that somebody worhips a picture of his mother just because you see that person kissing the picture of her, if he tells you there is not 'worship' in his heart.
As for the thing about baptism.. you are right: baptism is about repentance and believing in Yeshua.. but it is also about litterally, spiritually having washed the stain of sin away. It is not just a symbol. That is what we believe.. See I know where you are getting with this.
In the traditional churches we see baptism both as a real washing and as a covenant sign. Actually the Lord Himself revealed this to me once when I was studying the passages about Abraham in the Tanach. At that time I did not believe in child baptism but while I was reading under prayer something strange happend. While I read the word circumcision, suddenly the word BAPTSM resounded in my soul.. and I knew I had not said it myself but the Holy Spirit was teaching me.
Since that day I simply have peace with that question..
I am sorry.. I should not be getting so personal.. But you see, I wasn't always a Catholic so I have been struggling with many things and really had my Jacob-battle with my L-rd over the last few years.

hope to hear from you again.. oh and by the way.. did you by any chance read "the faith of the early fathers" by Jurgens?.. its a really interesting collection of documents from the early Church where we can see what were the practises in the first few centuries... really interesting stuff. I recommend it to every one on this tread :groupray: Shalom

[HaReb]

Hi there,

I should point out that I am probably your brother, but never a sister!!!

Thank you for your response. Yes, I know of Kierkegaard, from those early days of Philosophy of Religion at theo. College! But you may not have meant that so my question was quite vaild.

Your comments on Scripture are interesting and we have to disagree on this, it seems. Scripture is the full, final and complete revelation of G_d in Y'shua. It is not the case that there is more to know of G_d, as such, it is that we need to dig much deeper in Scripture to find the truth that is already there. That is very, very different from saying that Y'shua is not/can not be limited to the canon of Scripture. He has made known himself to us through the Scriptures as we have them today in their original language - there are no other Scriptures that will throw any further light than those we already have in the earlier and latter testaments, or do you not believe what you read in the Bible?

[SisterKatie]

wow.. I am really slow.. :D
thats me... calling you sister for a hundred years.. hehe.. I am sorry BROTHER .:o

I do believe all that is needed to know is found in the Bible but I do not believe Jesus does not continue to make history. He is still alive and active.
Like when He called me into life.. it did not say so in the Bible that He would do these precise things to me but He did.. what I mean is that Jesus IS the whole Truth but the Church is still on a pilgrimage that will end someday soon (I believe these are the end times in a very real way).
Also I believe in the logic that if you believe that the Bible is the true infallible word of God then you gotta believe too that the Church that wrote it is still lead by the Holy Spirit. You probably know that the Canon as we know it was determined by the Church in unity with the Holy Spirit in Carthage in 382.. The New Testament for me proves exactly that God still walks with His People.. for 300 years there was no fixed canon but christians still died as martyrs for their faith in Yeshua.. these martyrs did not have the Scripture like you have it today.
As Catholics we see the Bible as the Heart of the Church.. everything we do is bound up on it.. we believe in the promises it teaches us. But we also believe that the Holy Spirit is helping us understand through oral tradition... not a tradition that is contraditive to the Bible, never .. Scripture it self testifies to oral tradition like when it states that there were Church councils (Acts) where the apostles in unity were led by the Holy Spirit to decide what to do.. the same inspiration was there while writing and collecting the Bible, and when Paul says to Timothy: "stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle( 2 tim 2,2)" At another place he calls the Church "the foundation and pillar of truth." But if you ask any evangelical they will never use this quotation in a sermon.. why? because they have no church that has a unity in their teaching on issues of faith and morals... That is why I, that grew up on the Only-Bible-Principle have also come to realise that there must be a Church that can interpret Scripture by the Holy Spirit, in unity...

As a student of theology I find it interesting to see how every heresy that evolved throughout church history was based on false interpretaion of the Bible. Both Tertullian and Irenaeus of Lyon who lived before the year 200 advocated for tradition as in apostolic continuity and the Church being the one with historic continuity with the apostles.. they both claimed that a person can make whatever truth he wishes out of Scripture.. the Church therefore must be the protector and right interpretor of Scripture.

Now you are most likely to say that I am just a Catholic in the sense of the word.. and maybe I am.. I partly became Catholic because I saw no unity in the rest of the Christian world .. I have protestant friends who even believe in abortion, masturbation and active homosexuality.. you wanna know their source? the Bible-alone. That is what they say... so I am sceptic of everyone who say they are "tradition free" .. there is no such thing as a believer who does stand in a tradition.. I know also personally some Jews who are evangelical.. and some that are catholic...

hmm. I guess this tread is going a bit off topic..
Shalom :)

[SingingElk]

As I have posted earlier, Christmas makes me uneasy because of the origins of many of its traditions. The origins of the holly, the Christmas tree and even caroling are not founded in the bible. Even the December 25th date is borrowed from a pagan holiday. It is not blasphemous to say that the pure faith in G-d and the Messiah has been adulterated by bringing in practices borrowed from pagan celebrations. I have been slowly weaning my family off Christmas for this very reason.

[Colabomb]

As I have posted earlier, Christmas makes me uneasy because of the origins of many of its traditions. The origins of the holly, the Christmas tree and even caroling are not founded in the bible. Even the December 25th date is borrowed from a pagan holiday. It is not blasphemous to say that the pure faith in G-d and the Messiah has been adulterated by bringing in practices borrowed from pagan celebrations. I have been slowly weaning my family off Christmas for this very reason.

The key difference being the intent.

The early missionaries went to pagan lands and said "Look at the holly, that you use to represent fertility and new life, now, let me tell you about the TRUE LIFE, that you can have in Christ. "

You take this tree and you make an idol of it, let me show you the True God, that can make you decked in righteousness like you deck this tree with baubles.

Look at this day, the 25th, you take it to represent the birth of the sun, let me tell you about the birth and Incarnation of the SON.

We Reorient things that were evil, to the One who is Good. We take things that honored falsity, and we turn them into a symbol of the One Truth.

Just as man is Transformed from darkness to Light, in Christ.

[A_Pioneer]

Lu 6:28

Thank you!

[SisterKatie]

ColaBomb..

Toda Rabah.. I agree with you :)

[HaReb]

As I have posted earlier, Christmas makes me uneasy because of the origins of many of its traditions. The origins of the holly, the Christmas tree and even caroling are not founded in the bible. Even the December 25th date is borrowed from a pagan holiday. It is not blasphemous to say that the pure faith in G-d and the Messiah has been adulterated by bringing in practices borrowed from pagan celebrations.

That is quite right. It is one of the problems that Sh'ul had to cope with, too. He was a Jew to the Jews and a Greek to the Greeks but he didn't water down the word or its intention - neither should we. Y'shua said that not one word or tittle will pass from the Law...yet here we are adding in things that, in some cases the Bible expressly prohibits! Now, who is right? G_d or man (generic man)?

[ContentInHim]

As I have posted earlier, Christmas makes me uneasy because of the origins of many of its traditions. The origins of the holly, the Christmas tree and even caroling are not founded in the bible. Even the December 25th date is borrowed from a pagan holiday. It is not blasphemous to say that the pure faith in G-d and the Messiah has been adulterated by bringing in practices borrowed from pagan celebrations. I have been slowly weaning my family off Christmas for this very reason.
Same here, except I did go cold turkey this year. Fortunately family doesn't live near me so I could do as I wished. Sadly many in my home church get sucked in each year as family visits at Christmas and no other time. :(

[ContentInHim]

Well, how did Yahweh feel about the golden calf that Aaron and the Israelite fashioned, calling it the image of Yahweh and saying that the sacrifice was to Yahweh?

How did Yahweh feel about King Saul's illegal sacrifice which Saul declared was to Yahweh?

What about when King Solomon took up the heathen practices of his wives, even though he loved Yahweh?

No so much. :(

Just because someone does something and declares it's to honor Yahweh doesn't mean that He's going to view it the same way. Mixing is not good a good thing.

[HaReb]

Yes, what did Yeshua say about calling things korban - just so that you could depart from his commands just to keep man made traditions going? Mark 7:3-13 What do you not understand about this?

It's midnight here (UK) so I'm off to bed now - g'night all!

[ContraMundum]

HaReb, SisterKatie, everybody. There is already a debate thread about the datig of December 25th. Perhaps it is best for those interested in more depth regarding this issue to take the debate there. Also, this will not derail this thread further. :)

Here it is: http://christianforums.com/t6632007-why-dec-25.html

[SingingElk]

Post content moved to Dec 25 thread

[ContraMundum]

Sorry, guys, you will not find CHRISTMAS, as such, before about 1410. There were celebrations of a variety of types but not CHRISTMAS! The first CHRISTMAS ever celebrated, as such, was here in England in the 1400's.

PS the distinction is in the word Christmas!

Perhaps the word "Christmas" is new but the practice of celebrating the Incarnation around that time of year is really much older. I don't actually think what it's called makes any difference to what actually happens or happened. I'm convinced Dec 25th is very close to the actual incarnation, due to recent research in archeology and the ancient witness of the early Christians (who hated pagan practices!)- but I've discussed this on the other thread.

[Tishri1]

closed for staff review