I am arminian

[Sunbeam]

and I have had trouble finding a denomination but I have a few churches in mind that I haven't tried. Nazarene, some Assembly of God and even Calvary Chapel.

I am sorry if I confused anyone in my last thread. I guess I should have made it clear from the beginning that I am arminian but have had problems finding a church that has my values in other areas of their doctrine. I appreciate the believers in all the churches and I do consider them all christians, but I really have strong feelings on doctrine and I am looking for those churches that match my belief.

I would like to hear positive experiences only about those who attend arminian based churches. How long you have been going? What had been some of the most touching sermons, or learning experiences, or people that you met in them, how you first started going - did you go with someone?

[OnederWoman]

I didn't see the other thread....

Are you a spirit-filled believer as well as armenian?

My friend grew up Nazarene, I know he wouldn't recommend it.

Calvary Chapel I think would be too Calvinistic for you.

Assemblies of God is basically Armenian (most are totally, but their main wed site state that though they as a group lean mostly towards Armenianism that the also see Biblical truths in Calvinism... not that you'll actually find many who agree with that part). They are a charismatic church... though my most charismatic standards, the majority of them are pretty tame (not like the Pentacostal & Apostolic churches). I would think A of G would be ok for you. That's what we go to... though we are Calvinist... we haven't met any other Calvinist there. It's ok for us... we'd like to have a Sovereign Grace here (which are both Calvinist and Charismatic, but there aren't any). We'd go to a reformed church, but here there are only a couple really small ones where everyone is a local and their worship tends to be a little dry at least at the ones here. A of G will be good for you if you are also conservative/evangelical in your values.

[ByGrace]

I attend a Calvary Chapel and it definately is not Armenian. I would not say it is Calvinistic either but presents a more balanced view of the two. They teach that Salvation is eternally secure and that it is solely the work of God in the life of a believer through Gods foreknowledge of who would accept and believe. Good luck and the most important thing is that you trust Jesus as the sole way to Heaven. God bless my brother/sister.

[Sunbeam]

I didn't see the other thread....

Are you a spirit-filled believer as well as armenian?

My friend grew up Nazarene, I know he wouldn't recommend it.

Calvary Chapel I think would be too Calvinistic for you.

Assemblies of God is basically Armenian (most are totally, but their main wed site state that though they as a group lean mostly towards Armenianism that the also see Biblical truths in Calvinism... not that you'll actually find many who agree with that part). They are a charismatic church... though my most charismatic standards, the majority of them are pretty tame (not like the Pentacostal & Apostolic churches). I would think A of G would be ok for you. That's what we go to... though we are Calvinist... we haven't met any other Calvinist there. It's ok for us... we'd like to have a Sovereign Grace here (which are both Calvinist and Charismatic, but there aren't any). We'd go to a reformed church, but here there are only a couple really small ones where everyone is a local and their worship tends to be a little dry at least at the ones here. A of G will be good for you if you are also conservative/evangelical in your values.

=====================

I do believe in the sign gifts, and believe tongues is optional and I do pray sometimes in tonuges often when I am trying to concentrate and I have fear I am trying to overcome so yes I am spirit filled. Calvary Chapel doesn't take a stance really on c or a, so I don't think there would be too many arminians there since most arminians want to let that be known and want people to help them. Nazarene I heard can be kind of strict but as another poster said recently "its not the strict teachings, but the false teachings" that are worrisome. If the Nazarene church was harsh in atmosphere I would not go. Joy and love or basic respect as least ought to be present. I haven't really enjoyed the display of gifts in the Assembly of God always, I do think some of them go really out there but I am not really highly offended when the church is arminian in stance and at least they believe in gifts. I wouldn't want to go to a church that didn't believe in gifts. If people do things that I find to be well strange or unbiblical, its not me doing them, and I don't think that this is a salvation issue either for them so I don't mind much when I realize that this is not a salvation issue and I know that strange things do sometimes happen. I've had my share of them however not in church. I do like much about the basic doctrine of the Assembly of God church.

the word armenian as you spelled it definitely refers to another word, I think associated with Catholism but I forget exactly what

I like the Catholic churches stance on faith plus works and I like their posttrib rapture stance and that they believe in gifts but don't show them off in the service, but there are other things that offend me about them that too much. I think there are many wonderful CAtholic Chrisitians.

The apostolic groups are not for me but I do wish that I could fit in sometimes. I do not want to give up a little makeup or cutting my hair. they are good people I feel.

I really like dry sermons that are truth based, that never bothered me about the noncharismatic calvinst churches before I started studying doctrine. I wish that more arminian churches would have that kind of atmosphere of calmness and peace even if it seems dry to some. However, I have a strong pentocostal belief so I go where I fit in mentally first, not emotionally first. I wish more penotocostal churches were calmer. I know some Assembly God are. Because I used to be a nervous person alot more, I look for a calmer setting. A calm penotocostal arminian church would be nice but those words pentocostal and arminian have emotional tones to it in practice and its not likely to find. I would only feel comfortable with something that matches my beliefs moreso than my emotions. I feel its my job to adjust myself emotionally to the environment except in cases where its clear that its not my job to adjust.

I know what you mean about wanting to go to a larger church. I am single and I appreciate a larger church for that reason because many people my age 33 are married with kids and I would want to get involved with a few groups that I can get to know people and bond and yet I do not want to be involved with the singles minstry because it seems to remind me of the "incestuous" youth group atmosphere in my Baptist church when I was a young teen. I don't know how people can date numerous poeple in a small church group and continue to see the people. I didn't understand it then and I don't now. It made me shiver to see my friends jump from person to person laughing and joking about it. That would make me very uncomfortable to say the least.

Sorry for rambling. And thank you for answering. You get the rest of my blessings lol. I really appreciate it. I think a Nazarene would be ideal but you have given me another similar opinion of what I have heard too in which I have to watch and keep several things in mind.

[Sunbeam]

I attend a Calvary Chapel and it definately is not Armenian. I would not say it is Calvinistic either but presents a more balanced view of the two. They teach that Salvation is eternally secure and that it is solely the work of God in the life of a believer through Gods foreknowledge of who would accept and believe. Good luck and the most important thing is that you trust Jesus as the sole way to Heaven. God bless my brother/sister.
=============
I have read on their website that they are a cross between fundamentalism and pentocostalism and don't lean c or a but I really assumed that more calvinsts would be there and you are one of the ones that reinforce that belief. That soteriology issue is an issue with me. I believe in some points of calvinism too but I am arminian. I think eternal security is possible but not known always and I am a conditional security proponent. I listen to the Calvary Chapel sermons online sometimes and I really appreciate the teachings and I have gotten alot from that church. Thanks for responding.

[Lotar]

I do believe in the sign gifts, and believe tongues is optional and I do pray sometimes in tonuges often when I am trying to concentrate and I have fear I am trying to overcome so yes I am spirit filled. Calvary Chapel doesn't take a stance really on c or a, so I don't think there would be too many arminians there since most arminians want to let that be known and want people to help them.
<B>



Section 3Calvary Chapel's Perspective



It is not our purpose to take sides on these issues or to divide the body of Jesus Christ over human interpretations of these Biblical truths concerning our salvation. We simply desire to state how we in the Calvary Chapel fellowships understand the Bible's teaching regarding these matters.

1. DEPRAVITY
We believe that all are sinners (Romans 3:23) and unable by human performance to earn, deserve, or merit salvation (Titus 3:5). We believe that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and that apart from God's grace, no one can be saved (Ephesians 2:8-9). We believe that none are righteous, or capable of doing good (Romans 3:10-12), and that apart from the conviction and regeneration of the Holy Spirit, none can be saved (John 1:12-13; 16:8-11; I Peter 1:23-25). Mankind is clearly fallen and lost in sin.

2. ELECTION
We believe that God chose the believer before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-6), and based on His foreknowledge, has predestined the believer to be conformed to the image of His Son (Romans 8:29-30). We believe that God offers salvation to all who will call on His name. Romans 10:13 says, "For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." We also believe that God calls to Himself those who will believe in His Son, Jesus Christ (I Corinthians 1:9). However, the Bible also teaches that an invitation (or call) is given to all, but that only a few will accept it. We see this balance throughout scripture. Revelation 22:17 states, "And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." I Peter 1:2 tells us we are, "elect according to the foreknowledge of God, the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ." Matthew 22:14 says, "For many are called, but few are chosen (elected)." God clearly does choose, but man must also accept God's invitation to salvation.

3. ATONEMENT
We believe that Jesus Christ died as a propitiation (a satisfaction of the righteous wrath of God against sin) "for the whole world" (I John 2:2; 4:9-10), and that He redeems and forgives all who will believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as their only hope of salvation from sin, death, and hell (Ephesians 1:7; I Peter 1:18-19). We believe that eternal life is a gift of God (Romans 6:23), and that "whosoever believeth" in Jesus Christ will not perish, but will have eternal life (John 3:16-18). I Timothy 4:10 says "we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe." Hebrews 2:9 states that Jesus, "was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, should taste death for every man." The atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ was clearly sufficient to save the entire human race.

4. GRACE
We believe that God's grace is not the result of human effort or worthiness (Romans 3:24-28; 11:6), but is the response of God's mercy and love to those who will believe in His Son (Ephesians 2:4-10). Grace gives to us what we do not deserve nor can earn by our performance (Romans 11:6). We believe that God's grace and mercy can be resisted by us. Jesus said in Matthew 23:37, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them who are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not." We are not condemned because we have no opportunity to be saved, but a person is condemned because he makes a choice not to believe (John 3:18). In John 5:40 we read "And ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life." Jesus also said in John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me; and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:40 states, "And this is the will of Him that sent Me, that everyone who seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life." In John 7:37 Jesus said "If any man thirst, let him come unto Me, and drink." In John 11:26 He adds "whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die."

Jesus clearly acknowledges the fact of human resistance and rejection. In John 12:46-48 He said, "I am come as a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge him not; for I came, not to judge the world but to save the world. He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath One that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

In Stephen's message in Acts 7:51, he concluded by saying, "Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost; as your fathers did, so do ye." In Romans 10:21, the apostle Paul quotes Isaiah 65:2 when he speaks of God's words to Israel, "All day long I have stretched forth My hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people." In one of the five warning passages of the book of Hebrews, we read in Hebrews 10:26, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Verse 29 adds, "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, with which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" Clearly, God's grace can either be resisted or received by the exercise of human free will.

5. PERSEVERANCE
We believe that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 8:38-39), and that there is no condemnation to those who are in Jesus Christ (Romans 8:1). We believe that the promise of Jesus in John 10:27-28 is clear: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand." Jesus said in John 6:37, "him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out." We have this assurance in Philippians 1:6 "Being confident of this very thing, that He who hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." We believe that the Holy Spirit has sealed us unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30).

But we also are deeply concerned over the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23: "Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father, who is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? And in Thy name have cast out devils? And in Thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." Apparently there are many who claim to be believers that in fact are not.

Jesus said in Luke 9:62, "No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." I Corinthians 6:9-10 insists that "the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God" and warns us not to be deceived. A list is then given of various kinds of sinful lifestyles with an ending remark that they will not inherit the kingdom of God. Similar statements and conclusions are given in Galatians 5:19-21 and Ephesians 5:3-5.

Galatians 5:4 says "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Colossians 1:22-23 says about Jesus Christ "In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight, if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature that is under heaven, of which I, Paul, am made a minister." II Timothy 2:12 says "if we deny Him, He also will deny us." Hebrews 3:12 says, "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." Can true believers ("brethren") depart from the living God? I Timothy 4:1 says that "in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith." II Thessalonians 2:3 speaks of "a falling away" or an apostasy. II Peter 2:20-21 makes these remarkable statements: "For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in it, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

It is no wonder that Peter says in I Peter 1:10, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure; for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall." We thank God for the encouragement of Jude 24 - "Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy."



Maintaining a Bible-centered balance in these difficult issues is of great importance. We do believe in the perseverance of the saints (true believers), but are deeply concerned about sinful lifestyles and rebellious hearts among those who call themselves "Christians." We don't have all the answers to these matters, but we desire to be faithful to the Lord and His word. If we find ourselves basing our view of salvation on the performance and attitudes of people we become discouraged and concerned. But when we keep our eyes on the Lord, and trust in Him alone and in His power, we say with Peter in I Peter 1:3-9:"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to His abundant mercy, hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations, that the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ, whom, having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see Him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."


It is not easy to maintain the unity of the Spirit among us on these matters. It seems that the sovereignty of God and human responsibility are like two parallel lines that do not seem to intersect within our finite minds. God's ways are "past finding out" (Romans 11:33), and the Bible warns us to "lean not unto thy own understanding" (Proverbs 3:5). To say what God says in the Bible - no more and no less - is not always easy, comfortable, or completely understandable. But Scripture tells us that the wisdom from above will be loving and kind toward all, seeking the unity of the believers, not trying to find ways to divide and separate from one another. May God help us all to love each other, to be kind, tenderhearted, forgiving one another as Jesus Christ has forgiven us (Ephesians 4:32)! In difficult doctrinal matters, may we have gracious attitudes and humble hearts, desiring most of all to please Him who has called us to serve Him in the body of Christ. Discussion - YES! Disagreements - YES! Division - NO!

Jesus said, "By their fruit ye shall know them." When a particular position on the Scriptures causes one to become argumentative, legalistic, and divisive, I question the validity of that position. I seek to embrace those things that tend to make me more loving and kind, more forgiving and merciful. I know then that I am becoming more like my Lord. If you have come to a strong personal conviction on one side of a doctrinal issue, please grant us the privilege of first seeing how it has helped you to become more Christ-like in your nature, and then we will judge whether we need to come to that same persuasion. Let us always be certain to look at the fruit of the teaching.

Seek those things that produce the loving nature of Jesus in our lives. I would rather have the wrong facts and a right attitude, than right facts and a wrong attitude. God can change my understanding of the facts in a moment, but it often takes a lifetime to effect changes of attitude. Yours in love,
Chuck Smith
</B>
http://www.calvarychapel.com/library/smith-chuck/books/caatwog.htm


Though they are loath to admitt it, Calvary Chapel leans towards Calvinism. The hold Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, and Preservation of the Saints.

As for gifts, Calvary Chapel believes they exist, but isn't very much like the Pentecostles. There aren't people talking in tongues during the service, without an inturpretor, or in private prayer. They also don't believe that everyone will be blessed with the gift of tongues and/or prophesy.

[Bayhawks83]

I am sort of inbetween arminian and calvinistic, im not sure which one is right but i go to a calvinistic church.

[Lotar]

I personally like the Lutheran understanding, which is inbetween Calvinism and Arminian, even though I go to a Calvary Chapel.

[Lanakila]

Evangelical Free churches are Arminian, but not charismatic. Freewill Baptists, and Methodists are as well. There is a thead about what denomination are you with a link to a site to help you determine where you fit best. I actually scored high on the Freewill Baptist, because I am Arminian but not Charismatic.

[II Paradox II]

I am sort of inbetween arminian and calvinistic, im not sure which one is right but i go to a calvinistic church.
I tend to fall in somewhere between Calvinism, Thomism and Augustinianism... My church is broadly calvinistic but not confessional.

ken

[Lotar]

Evangelical Free churches are Arminian, but not charismatic. Freewill Baptists, and Methodists are as well. There is a thead about what denomination are you with a link to a site to help you determine where you fit best. I actually scored high on the Freewill Baptist, because I am Arminian but not Charismatic.
What thread is that? You've got me interested.

[OnederWoman]

the word armenian as you spelled it definitely refers to another word, I think associated with Catholism but I forget exactly what

I am referring to the view on Salvation being by choice, free-will... that there's is no elect.

I have no idea which way is the correct spelling lol

[calgal]

<B>

Though they are loath to admitt it, Calvary Chapel leans towards Calvinism. The hold Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, and Preservation of the Saints.

As for gifts, Calvary Chapel believes they exist, but isn't very much like the Pentecostles. There aren't people talking in tongues during the service, without an inturpretor, or in private prayer. They also don't believe that everyone will be blessed with the gift of tongues and/or prophesy.

[/b]

They sound Amaryldian which fits the CC I attended (Costa Mesa) for a while. TU_IP. They are pretty close to us Calvinist other than the praise band and coffee cart.....
:D

[Sunbeam]

Though they are loath to admitt it, Calvary Chapel leans towards Calvinism. The hold Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, and Preservation of the Saints.

As for gifts, Calvary Chapel believes they exist, but isn't very much like the Pentecostles. There aren't people talking in tongues during the service, without an inturpretor, or in private prayer. They also don't believe that everyone will be blessed with the gift of tongues and/or prophesy.

</B>============
Thanks.
I like CC's view on gifts, but I see now here thanks to you that they really are very Calvinstic. Irresistable Grace is the taker point. I thought that they were probably having calvinsitc people there because of lack of saying arminian but actually its in the doctrine. So God Bless em but I won't be going there.

[Sunbeam]

They sound Amaryldian which fits the CC I attended (Costa Mesa) for a while. TU_IP. They are pretty close to us Calvinist other than the praise band and coffee cart.....
:D
===========
I just learned that Amaryldian a stance and is Tulip without the L. Well that's interesting. Thanks.

[Sunbeam]

the word armenian as you spelled it definitely refers to another word, I think associated with Catholism but I forget exactly what
http://www.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-bot-left.gifhttp://www.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-bot-right.gif

I am referring to the view on Salvation being by choice, free-will... that there's is no elect.

I have no idea which way is the correct spelling lol
=========

Arminian is what you are talking about, when there is an e in the word armenian that is another religious term but has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Not trying to sound like a know it all, but I have seen discussions where people are talking about what we are and strawman arguments are built on someone's mispelling of that word or lurkers who want to join in the discussion are confused when they look up the wrong word. I've seen discussions go by with a lot of spelling errors occasionally from both sides of intelligent but time-crunched and quick typing people in which no one corrects the spelling in words that really change the entire meaning of the discussion and people get confused. Some people have chymed in mixing the two words together saying arminianism comes from catholicism when it really hasn't. Armenian is a catholic timeperiod I think but arminian is a derivative of a man's name from out of the Protestant church. I am just saying to clear up any confusion. Didn't mean to go on with a long explanation. Sometimes I do that on accident.

[Sunbeam]

I am sort of inbetween arminian and calvinistic, im not sure which one is right but i go to a calvinistic church
===========
I never heard of the difference between calvinsim and arminianism until around two years ago. It was worth learning. I am not Pelagian (works apart from God) or Amyrglian as Tulip without the L. Ha haha I just wrote out a post on the correct spelling of arminian when I cannot spell the other doctrinal stances.

[Sunbeam]

I personally like the Lutheran understanding, which is inbetween Calvinism and Arminian, even though I go to a Calvary Chapel.

__________________

Really? What is the Lutheran understanding? I don't know.

[Sunbeam]

Evangelical Free churches are Arminian, but not charismatic. Freewill Baptists, and Methodists are as well. There is a thead about what denomination are you with a link to a site to help you determine where you fit best. I actually scored high on the Freewill Baptist, because I am Arminian but not Charismatic.

__________________

I didn't know Evangelical Free is arminian without charismatic. thanks. I know that Methodists started with a arminian label but they really are very liberal today it seems and seem to teach calvinsim. The Salvation Army started as very arminian as well and yet I have heard sermons online by different preachers that are definitely hardcore calvinism and they had also gotten into the hyper-sign-gifts movement as well which I avoid if possible. Salvation Army used to be more "sober" than it is today. I knew that Freewill Baptists were arminian though there aren't many around here. I don't know their stances on other things however. I assume its about the same as the mainline Baptists stances.

I may even go to a church that has no gifts if its arminian because it might be better than the popular hypersigngifts I see. I just want to know I am being taught what I need to be reminded of what I believe. That's my priority.

[Sunbeam]

I tend to fall in somewhere between Calvinism, Thomism and Augustinianism... My church is broadly calvinistic but not confessional.

ken
=========
What is Thomism and Augustinianism in nutshells? Are they from Catholicism?

[II Paradox II]

What is Thomism and Augustinianism in nutshells? Are they from Catholicism?
Basically they can be thought of as forerunners and alternatives to Calvinism (and yes, both augustine and aquinas were catholic). They are similar in that they all teach that God elects people without consideration of their merit or choices. They are similar in that they all teach that God decrees the salvation of some while at least passing over everyone else. They differ in their theories of free-will, the extent of the atonement and how grace is received.

They are also both relatively rare in popular Catholic circles even though they are well represented among Catholic theologians. I should add as well that most calvinistic and lutheran thought is derived from augustine. Even though Aquinas teaches a similar idea, he was largely (and I think unjustifiably) ignored and dismissed by both Calvin and Luther.

ken

[Lotar]

I personally like the Lutheran understanding, which is inbetween Calvinism and Arminian, even though I go to a Calvary Chapel.

__________________

Really? What is the Lutheran understanding? I don't know.
http://www.lcms.org/belief/doct-07.html

Of Conversion

10. We teach that conversion consists in this, that a man, having learned from the Law of God that he is a lost and condemned sinner, is brought to faith in the Gospel, which offers him forgiveness of sins and eternal salvation for the sake of Christ's vicarious satisfaction, Acts 11:21; Luke 24:46, 47; Acts 26:18.

11. All men, since the Fall, are dead in sins, Eph. 2:1-3, and inclined only to evil, Gen. 6:5; 8:21; Rom. 8:7. For this reason, and particularly because men regard the Gospel of Christ, crucified for the sins of the world, as foolishness, 1 Cor. 2:14, faith in the Gospel, or conversion to God, is neither wholly nor in the least part the work of man, but the work of God's grace and almighty power alone, Phil. 1:29; Eph. 2:8; 1:19; -- Jer. 31:18. Hence Scripture call the faith of men, or his conversion, a raising from the dead, Eph. 1:20; Col. 2:12, a being born of God, John 1:12, 13, a new birth by the Gospel, 1 Pet, 1:23-25, a work of God like the creation of light at the creation of the world, 2 Cor. 4:6.

12. On the basis of these clear statements of the Holy Scriptures we reject every kind of synergism, that is, the doctrine that conversion is wrought not by the grace and power of God alone, but in part also by the co-operation of man himself, by man's right conduct, his right attitude, his right self-determination, his lesser guilt or less evil conduct as compared with others, his refraining from willful resistance, or anything else whereby man's conversion and salvation is taken out of the gracious hands of God and made to depend on what man does or leaves undone. For this refraining from willful resistance or from any kind of resistance is also solely a work of grace, which "changes unwilling into willing men," Ezek. 36:26; Phil. 2:13. We reject also the doctrine that man is able to decide for conversion through "powers imparted by grace," since this doctrine presupposes that before conversion man still possesses spiritual powers by which he can make the right use of such "powers imparted by grace."

13. On the other hand, we reject also the Calvinistic perversion of the doctrine of conversion, that is, the doctrine that God does not desire to convert and save all hearers of the Word, but only a portion of them. Many hearers of the Word indeed remain unconverted and are not saved, not because God does not earnestly desire their conversion and salvation, but solely because they stubbornly resist the gracious operation of the Holy Ghost, as Scripture teaches, Acts 7:51; Matt. 23:37; Acts 13:46.

14. As to the question why not all men are converted and saved, seeing that God's grace is universal and all men are equally and utterly corrupt, we confess that we cannot answer it. From Scripture we know only this: A man owes his conversion and salvation, not to any lesser guilt or better conduct on his part, but solely to the grace of God. But any man's non-conversion is due to himself alone; it is the result of his obstinate resistance against the converting operation of the Holy Ghost. Hos. 13:9.

15. Our refusal to go beyond what is revealed in these two Scriptural truths is not "masked Calvinism" ("Crypto- Calvinism") but precisely the Scriptural teaching of the Lutheran Church as it is presented in detail in the Formula of Concord (Triglot, p. 1081, paragraphs 57-59, 60b, 62, 63; M. p. 716f.): "That one is hardened, blinded, given over to a reprobate mind, while another, who is indeed in the same guilt, is converted again, etc. -- in these and similar questions Paul fixes a certain limit to us how far we should go, namely, that in the one part we should recognize God's judgment. For they are well-deserved penalties of sins when God so punished a land or nation for despising His Word that the punishment extends also to their posterity, as is to be seen in the Jews. And thereby God in some lands and persons exhibits His severity to those that are His in order to indicate what we all would have well deserved and would be worthy and worth, since we act wickedly in opposition to God's Word and often grieve the Holy Ghost sorely; in order that we may live in the fear of God and acknowledge and praise God's goodness, to the exclusion of, and contrary to, our merit in and with us, to whom He gives His Word and with whom He leaves it and whom He does not harden and reject...And this His righteous, well-deserved judgment He displays in some countries, nations and persons in order that, when we are placed alongside of them and compared with them (quam simillimi illis deprehensi, i.e., and found to be most similar to them), we may learn the more diligently to recognize and praise God's pure, unmerited grace in the vessels of mercy...When we proceed thus far in this article, we remain on the right way, as it is written, Hos. 13:9: `O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in Me is thy help.' However, as regards these things in this disputation which would soar too high and beyond these limits, we should with Paul place the finger upon our lips and remember and say, Rom. 9:20: `O man, who art thou that repliest against God?'" The Formula of Concord describes the mystery which confronts us here not as a mystery in man's heart (a "psychological" mystery), but teaches that, when we try to understand why "one is hardened, blinded, given over to a reprobate mind, while another, who is indeed in the same guilt, is converted again," we enter the domain of the unsearchable judgments of God and ways past finding out, which are not revealed to us in His Word, but which we shall know in eternal life. 1 Cor. 13:12.

16. Calvinists solve this mystery, which God has not revealed in His Word, by denying the universality of grace; synergists, by denying that salvation is by grace alone. Both solutions are utterly vicious, since they contradict Scripture and since every poor sinner stands in need of, and must cling to, both the unrestricted universal grace and the unrestricted "by grace alone," lest he despair and perish.

[furgodwuerlivn2002]

heard of Life Teen? It's beautiful. Look it up on google. It's awesome.

[Serapha]

I would like to hear positive experiences only about those who attend arminian based churches. How long you have been going? What had been some of the most touching sermons, or learning experiences, or people that you met in them, how you first started going - did you go with someone?


Hi there!

:wave:

I grew up in an arminian-based denomination. I switched to baptist teachings years ago because I am convinced that the doctrine of eternal security is entirely biblical. However, most of my family and many friends are arminian-believers.


What is one of the most touching sermons?


Any of the early denominational teachings on "holiness".

Buddy Robinson:
"If the Lord is your Shepherd, then you are the Lord’s sheep, and He has a perfect right to shear you any time He needs wool and you have no right to bleat.”



~malaka~

[FR0G]

I couldn't find the thread, but here is a link to a quiz you can take to determine which denomination most closely matches your beliefs. http://www.selectsmart.com/FREE/select.php?client=christiandenom

[Ken]

Lanakila... I attended an EV Free church and it was very Calvinistic in nature, the pastor had attended a 4 point Calvinistic Univ., and they featured the books and tapes of Calvinists in their library, ie esp. John Gerstner and RC Sproul.... for instance, one EV Free church writes about itself thusly:

"We are constitutionally Congregational, Doctrinally Calvinistic, practising Believer's Baptism."
http://www.findachurch.co.uk/churches/sj/sj84/bethelhanley/

another says
"The preaching and teaching is expository, emphasizes application, and is unashamedly Calvinistic."
http://www.reachingforchrist.org/churchfinders/usachurches/co_churches/lhefc.html

However I did also find those who say that officially, the EV Free church tries to remain uncommitted to the Calvinist/Arminian debate, and that a given EV Free church may be more Arminian or Calvinistic, depending on the individual pastor.....

blessings

[Ken]

Sunbeam…. re Armenian versus Arminian.... the former is usually used in identifying those who are from the country of Armenia, the latter is the theological view descended from the teachings of Jacobus Arminius..... though there is an Armenian Church.... at http://www.armenianchurch.org/ .... they consider themselves to be more in line doctrinally and historically with the Eastern Orthodox, rather than western churches...

What is the Eastern Church?
The Eastern or Oriental Church is the original Church, which Christ founded in Jerusalem. The principal representatives of the Eastern Church are the Armenian, Greek, Syrian, Egyptian and other Churches which though they differ from each other by nationality, language and rites and have an ecclesiastical government absolutely independent of each other, yet have the same Divine Head who is Christ."
http://www.armenianchurch.org/church/believe/index.html