Why I Joined The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod

[maylor]

Why I Joined The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. ( PART 1)

My wife and I were recently confirmed into membership in a WELS church. Prior to this our church attendance of any denomination was basically zero.

I had been neglecting my responsibility to be the spiritual leader of my household, and quite honestly, I was barely maintaining my Christian Faith at all. I have come to the conclusion that I cannot remain a Christian without going to church on a regular basis. My wife (God bless her) and I have been through a rocky (mostly my doing) 5 years of marriage. I know now that without Jesus Christ in my life, I will end up ruining my marriage, wrecking my life, and then go to hell.

About 2 years ago my wife heard about a program for young children at the local WELS church and started taking our youngsters to it. She met the pastor’s wife, who ran the program, the pastor and other members of the church. She enjoyed the program and liked the people involved. Finally one day she told me that she wanted to visit the church. After putting it off for several weeks, she told me “ I am going to visit this church whether you come with us or not”!

I had been raised going to various non-denominational, Charismatic/Pentecostal type churches, (these type of churches make my wife very uncomfortable, by the way) and the liturgical Lutheran service seemed very formal , but also very reverent. I was very pleased that there was no politics in the sermon and the overall experience encouraged us to return.

I found the WELS website and started learning about the Lutheran Faith. I found that I agreed with everything I read. I believe that the bible is the Word of God and without error, and I had heard that Lutherans like other denominations had gone liberal and had let certain fundamental principles slide. These being acceptance of homosexuality and abortion, rejecting the inerrancy of the Word, etc.. How great it was to find a theologically conservative, orthodox if you will, Lutheran church.

I’ll be back with part 2 soon!

[MarkRohfrietsch]

:thumbsup:Part 1 sounds like all the right reasons to me!

It really is beyond my understanding why others just don't get it.:confused: I guess we just aren't working hard enough!

[NordicLutheran]

Welcome to the Forums Maylor! Welcome to the Evangelical Lutheran Church!

[dinkime]

welcome!!

what area are you in? one of our local WELS churches has a children's program that sounds like what your church has :)

[PreachersWife2004]

:clap:

Welcome to the WELS! I LOVE hearing stories like this.

God will be with you every step of the way, and I'm looking forward to Part Deux of your story!

And I too am curious as to what your location is. I'm married to a WELS pastor so there's a good chance I may know your pastor. Or not...you never know with the WELS, but there's this thing called the "WELS Connection" which is a video that our synod puts out, but is also the fact that everyone knows someone in the WELS and it's like that whole six degrees of separation thing.

Anyway. Happy New Year and welcome once again to the fold, and to the forums!

:hug:

[seajoy]

I'm so happy God drew you in to our Synod. I love being part of WELS also.

May God continue to bless you and your family with a stronger faith in Him.

seajoy :)

[maylor]

Welcome to the Forums Maylor! Welcome to the Evangelical Lutheran Church!

Thanks, happy to be here and happy to be Lutheran!

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome. A little info about my church:


District:
Arizona-California
Conference:
Black Canyon

That's as specific as I feel comfortable for now.

I might not be able to be completely honest in other parts of this forum if I give out to much personal identity info at this time.


The liturgical service has been a great blessing to my family. We love the joint confession of sins followed by the absolution and assurance of forgiveness. The hymns that we sing have allowed me for the first time to enter into what I believe to be genuine worship on my part of our Heavenly Father.
The reciting of the Creeds reinforces the tenants of my faith. The Sacrament of Holy Communion is a wonderful and humbling experience. The Benediction encourages and reassures me .

It is a great feeling to start out 2008 with a clean slate after last night's new years eve Holy Communion service.

[PreachersWife2004]

I know what you mean on all accounts, Maylor. I missed church last night because I am sick with the flu and my babies both have colds, so I was unable to take communion with my husband. :( Fortunately, since he is a pastor, if I choose I can take communion privately here at home.

It is wonderful to be a part of such a confessional faith. Everything we do, we can back up with the bible. And the doxology always brings me comfort.

Do you do devotions with your little ones at home? We do them every night before bed. Right now we are using the Meditations booklet but when the babies get a wee older we'll switch to something that is more child oriented. My 12 year old gets it, but even so there are concepts that we've had to explain a little earlier than we wanted to (like what fornication was).

God's blessings to you and your family this new year. May God bring you wealth and prosperity and the joy and comfort of His salvation, won for us through Jesus Christ!

:amen:

Thanks, happy to be here and happy to be Lutheran!

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome. A little info about my church:


District:
Arizona-California
Conference:
Black Canyon

That's as specific as I feel comfortable for now.

I might not be able to be completely honest in other parts of this forum if I give out to much personal identity info at this time.


The liturgical service has been a great blessing to my family. We love the joint confession of sins followed by the absolution and assurance of forgiveness. The hymns that we sing have allowed me for the first time to enter into what I believe to be genuine worship on my part of our Heavenly Father.
The reciting of the Creeds reinforces the tenants of my faith. The Sacrament of Holy Communion is a wonderful and humbling experience. The Benediction encourages and reassures me .

It is a great feeling to start out 2008 with a clean slate after last night's new years eve Holy Communion service.

[maylor]

God's blessings to you and your family this new year. May God bring you wealth and prosperity and the joy and comfort of His salvation, won for us through Jesus Christ!

:amen:

Thank You So Much!

As I stated earlier, we were drawn to our local WELS church through a children’s program that my wife took our kids to.

This church happens to be 2 miles from our house, which is nice also. There is a Missouri Synod church in my town also and it is about the same distance (other direction) from our house too. I believe that if we had gone there that we may very well have joined that Synod. The LCMS/WELS differences on fellowship and women’s suffrage not being an issue of concern for me until I learned about them. Of course, this local LCMS church may not have the same service style, etc. that we enjoy so much about our church.

The Fellowship Doctrine of the WELS did cause me a bit of anxiety when we were first learning about it with pastor at the bible instruction classes. If strictly interpreted it would mean that saying grace with my extended family at Thanksgiving would be forbidden because they are not confirmed members of the WELS. Our pastor assured us that this was not an issue.

I know that the Wisconsin Synod is basically a zero growth church, and some have suggested that the Synods stance on The Sacrament, Fellowship, women’s suffrage, etc. cause people to be “put off” from the start and not willing to give the church their consideration. I’m not so concerned with this, I feel that my family was drawn to this church for a reason and that it is the right place for us.

I recently purchased the Christian Worship hymnal, A Lutheran prayer book, Luther’s Small Catechism with explanation, The Jews and Their Lies, and Basic Luther- Four of his fundamental works. The prayer book and hymnal have some devotions and prayers for home use. At this point I need to start praying more with my wife and family at regular times, ( morning, evening, not just meals and bedtime) and would like to start home devotions with my wife and kids.

And of course, read the Bible more!

[RadMan]

The Jews and Their LiesInteresting choice. I wonder at Luther's riling against the Jews and wonder what the fixation is between the reformed movement and the Jews and if Luther knew something.

[PreachersWife2004]

Luther's Morning and Evening prayer works wonderful, too. We use both of them every day.

I honestly have never read Jews and Their Lies. None of my pastors ever recommended it, and from the little that I have ever seen of it, I haven't liked it.

Yes, the doctrines of WELS can put people off. I've had people call me many things for my belief on fellowship and closed communion practices. We've had people pitch hissy fits after church because their MIL couldn't take communion with the family. My own family has an aunt that is LCMS and refused to come to our church because she isn't allowed at the table. But the thing to bear in mind is that closed communion is scriptural. It is done out of love, not out of some need to separate ourselves from other Christians.

I've never felt oppressed or kept down because of the role of man and woman that the bible presents. I have always loved that Jesus himself gave great honor to women, and the bible has marvelous stories about women who were strong believers and helped out immensely, all without compromising the role of man and woman. Again, as with communion, the WELS' stance on the role of man and woman is very biblically based and is not out of some need to make men more important than women. I can still say that I believe that behind every great man is a great woman, and know that it falls in line with how God intended us women to be.

I could just keep going on and on and on like the energizer bunny about WELS!!

Thank You So Much!

As I stated earlier, we were drawn to our local WELS church through a children’s program that my wife took our kids to.

This church happens to be 2 miles from our house, which is nice also. There is a Missouri Synod church in my town also and it is about the same distance (other direction) from our house too. I believe that if we had gone there that we may very well have joined that Synod. The LCMS/WELS differences on fellowship and women’s suffrage not being an issue of concern for me until I learned about them. Of course, this local LCMS church may not have the same service style, etc. that we enjoy so much about our church.

The Fellowship Doctrine of the WELS did cause me a bit of anxiety when we were first learning about it with pastor at the bible instruction classes. If strictly interpreted it would mean that saying grace with my extended family at Thanksgiving would be forbidden because they are not confirmed members of the WELS. Our pastor assured us that this was not an issue.

I know that the Wisconsin Synod is basically a zero growth church, and some have suggested that the Synods stance on The Sacrament, Fellowship, women’s suffrage, etc. cause people to be “put off” from the start and not willing to give the church their consideration. I’m not so concerned with this, I feel that my family was drawn to this church for a reason and that it is the right place for us.

I recently purchased the Christian Worship hymnal, A Lutheran prayer book, Luther’s Small Catechism with explanation, The Jews and Their Lies, and Basic Luther- Four of his fundamental works. The prayer book and hymnal have some devotions and prayers for home use. At this point I need to start praying more with my wife and family at regular times, ( morning, evening, not just meals and bedtime) and would like to start home devotions with my wife and kids.

And of course, read the Bible more!

[maylor]

Interesting choice. I wonder at Luther's riling against the Jews and wonder what the fixation is between the reformed movement and the Jews and if Luther knew something.

Haven't read it yet. The title caught my interest because of the " The Jews are saved even without Christ" attitude that I encountered so much in the churches that I grew up going to.

[Jim47]

Welcome to the forum Maylor, and am glad you have joined the WELS. I am glad to hear that you are reading the bible. For years this was my only source of training aside from church and bible study. Its hard to go wrong with God's Word. http://www3.christianforums.com/images/icons/icon11.gif

I hope you enjoy our forum and the friends we have here.

[maylor]

It appears to me that the overwhelming majority of the members of the WELS churches are folks who were raised in the church and not converts like my family.

Many of these people are descended from the immigrant stock (mainly from Germany and Scandinavia) who started the early Lutheran churches in America. I believe that this means that many of the WELS congregations are primarily made up of people of similar ancestry. (WELS members here can correct me if I’m wrong, my info comes from reading about various WELS congregations, names of synod leaders and pastors as well as from my own church.)

My wife and I are of German and English extraction and we share a similar ancestry, history, and culture of the other members of our church as well as the synod. This means we share even more in common with our fellow WELS members than just our Confession of Faith.

This makes the WELS church we attend even more comfortable and familiar.

[RandomLayman]

Haven't read it yet. The title caught my interest because of the " The Jews are saved even without Christ" attitude that I encountered so much in the churches that I grew up going to.
Well, before you do read it, there is some background info you should keep in mind when you do read it:

1. Luther had Jewish friends, particularly a certain Rabbi.

2. Luther felt the Jews were mistreated by the Catholics, and was hoping they would turn to the Gospel when they heard it preached in all of it's purity.

3. Luther was angry that the Jews rejected the Gospel instead of turning to it.

4. Luther learned Hebrew from Jews. He was one of very few men of his time that could. He learned it because he wanted to see what the Jews wrote about him.

5. Luther, reading the Jewish writings, was very angry to see that they were using Hebrew (non-Jews were unable to read Hebrew) to encourage criminal action against non-Jews. For example, one document said that Jews should kill a non-Jew whenever convenient. Luther was angry that the Jews, as a people, committed themselves against the law of the land. As a result, he felt they should sent to live elsewhere, where they were not defying the government or endangering other people.

6. While Luther advocated the relocation of the Jews, he did not advocate the mass slaughter of them.

7. Luther wrote Jews and Their Lies in the polemical style of his day. While it sounds very inflammatory, keep in mind that it was actually tamer then what some Catholics were writing about Luther.

8. In the Holocaust, Hitler, who was a member of the generic protestant Union Church, ordered the slaughter of the Jews. All of the generic Protestant seminaries in Germany went along with Hitler's anti-Jewish propaganda. The Erlangen Seminary was Lutheran, though most of the faculty was liberal. It was the only Lutheran seminary in Germany during WWII. It was the only seminary that did not become taken over by Nazi sympathizers. The faculty at the Erlangen Seminary protected 40-50 Lutheran seminarians and two vicars that were Jewish. These persons lived practically normal lives because the faculty protected them from Natzis that wanted files on Jewish students. Lutherans did not and do not agree with the Holocaust.

9. Lutherans agree that the Jewish religion is a lie, and as the book of Revelation says in chapters 2-3, Jewish synagogues are actually "synagogues of Satan", because the "real Jews" are the Christians, since we are children of Abraham through our faith in Abraham's Seed. Non-Christian Jews, meanwhile, have been cut off from the promise.

10. Lutherans today agree that Luther went too far in The Jews and Their Lies. For example, he should not have advocated burning down their synagogues. Our doctrine is from the Bible alone, which cannot err. Men, such as Martin Luther, can and do err. Martin Luther himself confessed that he sinned by his cursing, etc. Luther did not consider himself infallible, and neither do we.

11. You might be interested in reading Luther's "Jesus Christ was born a Jew" in which he speaks against the harsh treatment of Jews.

[maylor]

Thanks for the information RandomLayman,

I know that Luther was but a man and a sinner like us all. And I haven't been told by my pastor nor read any where that the book The Jews And Their Lies is accepted as correct by the Lutheran church or on par with the Catechism, Augsberg Confession, Book of Concord, etc.. I haven't read it yet, it's not high on my list of priorities. when I get around to it I'll keep the things you wrote in mind.

[LutheranChick]

Welcome, maylor! To CF, the Lutheran faith and in particular, to WELS - our sister synod! (I belong to an ELS church).

[maylor]

Welcome, maylor! To CF, the Lutheran faith and in particular, to WELS - our sister synod! (I belong to an ELS church).

Thank you!

[maylor]

Because the WELS church is so theologically conservative its members tend to be politically and socially conservative as well. Again other WELS members correct me if I’m wrong, my experience and observations of the church being very limited at this point.

I’m as politically and socially conservative as they come, a “right winger” on all counts. And while I appreciate the fact that our pastor leaves politics out of his sermons and teaching, it is refreshing to worship, fellowship and associate with others who more or less have the same social and political views as myself.

[KimLCMS]

Welcom Maylor! It's good to see a new person in town. :) I hope you enjoy fellowship here!

[RadMan]

Welcome randomlayman. Your insites are instructional. I've seen your posts on the "other" forum which I won't mention here because it seems to be anathema here. There's a lot of denial here.

[maylor]

One of the first sermons that I heard while visiting the WELS church that we would eventually join, the pastor talked about the presence of saved Christians in many different denominations and churches, not just Lutheran. I was very happy to hear this.
It is my understanding that the Roman Catholic and Orthodox as well as Seventh Day Adventist believe that they are the “true” church and all others outside are unsaved/ not Christian. I was also happy to learn that WELS recognized my baptism (Eastern Catholic, Syriac Rite) as valid (in the name of the Triune God). I know that Baptist would require me to be re-baptized. These are additional reasons for my conversion to Lutheranism.
From the This We Believe:
1. We believe that there is one holy Christian church, which is the temple of God (1 Corinthians 3:16) and the body of Christ (Ephesians 1:23; 4:12). The members of this one church are all those who are the “sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:26). The church, then, consists only of believers, or saints, whom God accepts as holy for the sake of Jesus’ righteousness, which has been credited to them (2 Corinthians 5:21). These saints are scattered throughout the world. All people who believe that Jesus is their Savior from sin are members of the holy Christian church, regardless of the nation, race, or church body to which they belong.

2. We believe that this holy Christian church is a reality, although it is not an external, visible organization. Because “man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart” (1 Samuel 16:7), only the Lord knows “those who are his” (2 Timothy 2:19). The members of the holy Christian church are known only to God; we cannot distinguish between true believers and hypocrites. The holy Christian church is therefore invisible and cannot be identified with any one church body or with the total membership of all church bodies.

[PreachersWife2004]

Maylor, that is another thing that I like about Lutheranism in general. We aren't so insecure that we have to say that we are the one true way to heaven. We are confident enough to boast that Lutheranism is the closest to the bible in doctrine, and joyous to say that other denominations will be joining us in heaven.

[cerette]

Thank You So Much!

As I stated earlier, we were drawn to our local WELS church through a children’s program that my wife took our kids to.

This church happens to be 2 miles from our house, which is nice also. There is a Missouri Synod church in my town also and it is about the same distance (other direction) from our house too. I believe that if we had gone there that we may very well have joined that Synod. The LCMS/WELS differences on fellowship and women’s suffrage not being an issue of concern for me until I learned about them. Of course, this local LCMS church may not have the same service style, etc. that we enjoy so much about our church.

The Fellowship Doctrine of the WELS did cause me a bit of anxiety when we were first learning about it with pastor at the bible instruction classes. If strictly interpreted it would mean that saying grace with my extended family at Thanksgiving would be forbidden because they are not confirmed members of the WELS. Our pastor assured us that this was not an issue.

I know that the Wisconsin Synod is basically a zero growth church, and some have suggested that the Synods stance on The Sacrament, Fellowship, women’s suffrage, etc. cause people to be “put off” from the start and not willing to give the church their consideration. I’m not so concerned with this, I feel that my family was drawn to this church for a reason and that it is the right place for us.

I recently purchased the Christian Worship hymnal, A Lutheran prayer book, Luther’s Small Catechism with explanation, The Jews and Their Lies, and Basic Luther- Four of his fundamental works. The prayer book and hymnal have some devotions and prayers for home use. At this point I need to start praying more with my wife and family at regular times, ( morning, evening, not just meals and bedtime) and would like to start home devotions with my wife and kids.

And of course, read the Bible more!
What do you mean by this: "If strictly interpreted it would mean that saying grace with my extended family at Thanksgiving would be forbidden because they are not confirmed members of the WELS. Our pastor assured us that this was not an issue." ??
As a WELS member I do not understand....

"

[PreachersWife2004]

As prayer with a person is considered a form of worship, and WELS has a very strong stance on fellowship principles, praying with people who are not of our faith would be against our doctrine.

WELS Q&A, (http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuItem_itemID=3249&cuTopic_topicID=63) as always, answers better than I ever could.

[cerette]

Yes..I agree. But from this quote: If strictly interpreted it would mean that saying grace with my extended family at Thanksgiving would be forbidden because they are not confirmed members of the WELS. Our pastor assured us that this was not an issue." it sounds like the pastor meant that it would not be a problem to pray with non-wels-els family members... Which would be UnBiblical!

[maylor]

I recently attended a funeral service for my cousin that was held at a Mormon church. When prayers were offered by various persons during the ceremony, I bowed my head and silently said my own prayer to our Heavenly Father, asking Him to work His will in the lives of my cousin's family and friends through her passing.

[cerette]

Sorry to hear about your loss.
It is good that you did not pray with the mormons. Sadly enough, they aren't even Christians.
To my original question: Did your WELS pastor tell you it was not a problem for you to say grace with non-wels family members?

[maylor]

To my original question: Did your WELS pastor tell you it was not a problem for you to say grace with non-wels family members?

Yes, during our bible instruction classes last year, leading up to our confirmation. He said the WELS doctrine on fellowship spoke to worshiping/communing/praying in churches that were not in doctrinal agreement and prayer with individuals if the wrong impression would be given. He said we are allowed to pray when others are present unless they understand it as an expression of fellowship without agreement.

[cerette]

Maylor,

I am confused. It sounds to me that your pastor has been saying things that don't agree with the lutheran confessions.

[maylor]

Maylor,

I am confused. It sounds to me that your pastor has been saying things that don't agree with the lutheran confessions.

Honestly it's a bit confusing to me as well. I know that when pastor was instructing us about this, my wife specifically asked about mealtime prayers at family gatherings and he said it was ok. He said that, he too, had non WELS family members and they said grace together before meals when they were together.

[maylor]

I mean to say, I can't imagine that he would teach us something that is not in agreement with the Lutheran confessions. It was related to the idea that we are allowed to pray when others are present unless they understand it as an expression of fellowship without agreement. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, I better talk to my pastor again about it. I'll email him, and then I'll let you know his response. Now you've got me worried about this all over again.......it's ok.

By the way welcome cerette! I'm new here myself, been posting at CF for a month or so now.

[PreachersWife2004]

Fro mthe WELS Q&A:

Praying in the presence of a person is not the same as praying with a person. Paul had no hesitance to pray in the presence of heathen on board the ship (Act 27:35), but he did not join their heathen prayers nor ask them to join in his. Simultaneous silent prayer within a group which is not united in doctrine is not an expression of prayer fellowship. Praying with a person, however, is always an act of joint worship and therefore an act of fellowship.

That might help shed a little bit of light on things.

And this further helps:

How does this apply to the kind of situation you describe in your question? People who are not of our fellowship may often be present when we pray: guests in our home for a meal, visitors who are attending one of our Bible classes or services, room mates of a member of ours who is hospitalized, and so on. There is no reason we should not pray when others are present, unless they understand it as an expression of fellowship without agreement. For example, if someone is attending our Bible class and says, "I think its great that we can pray together even though I don't believe your view of baptism," we would not pray with that person. If a local social or civic group indiscriminately invites people of all faiths to take turns leading them, we do not want to be part of such a rotation which gives the impression that it really does not matter who leads in prayer since all faiths are the same anyway. The wrong impression would be given even if the content of our prayer was good.

[cerette]

I am sorry I caused you to worry about it again. I didn't want you to end up 'worrying', but it is good that you take doctrine seriously and care about it.

Thing is, sisters and brothers, that this is a larger issue than what it seems. I have studied this problem for a while now, and that is why I asked so much about it yesterday.

As WELS lutherans, we do not believe in 'levels of fellowship'. However, some of our pastors have made a distinction between 'private' and 'public' fellowship. I have yet to see the distinction taught in the Bible. :help:
On the Q&A page, you will find several different answers to the same question. Some pastors say 'sure go ahead and say grace' while others say 'don't do it'. How are we to know?
John Brug has written several essays on the topic, which can be interesting to read. What I don't like about the attitude he and many others seem to have, is that they give a long list of exceptions to the "not allowed"-rule. Exceptions are just that..exceptions. They are not to be misused and made into a new rulebook!

Our strict doctrine on church fellowship is PRECIOUS. It is acted out of love and caring for others. It is a clear statement to them that we take God's Word seriously. Let us pray that the Holy Spirit uses us and our fellowship practice to make them see what a joy we have in Christ, and that they too want to share it with us. (OK, I better stop now or it will sound like :preach: )

It is not loving of us to pray with family just because we don't want to hurt their feelings. The Lord Jesus has told us not to be in church fellowship with those who do not obey to his teaching. And praying together, be it only a short table prayer, is an act of church fellowship.
If we say it is not, then we all of a sudden have 'levels of fellowship'. No thanks!!

[PreachersWife2004]

I think the main thing is that there is a difference in praying in front of someone versus praying with them. Drawing the line is probably where most people get confused.

I've said grace in front of relatives who were non-denominational. I am not aware whether they prayed, as well, but I did not consider myself praying with them. They know my beliefs, they know our doctrine on fellowship and they understand it. Why would I therefore not say grace? I say grace in a restaurant before I eat. I consider that to be the same thing.

I find sometimes that the issue of praying with other faiths has brought great opportunities for me to speak about the fellowship doctrine and why we follow it. I've had two friends join the WELS after poo-pooing me on the subject but then researching it. They found that what the WELS believes to be biblical truth.

[cerette]

I think the main thing is that there is a difference in praying in front of someone versus praying with them. Drawing the line is probably where most people get confused.

I've said grace in front of relatives who were non-denominational. I am not aware whether they prayed, as well, but I did not consider myself praying with them. They know my beliefs, they know our doctrine on fellowship and they understand it. Why would I therefore not say grace? I say grace in a restaurant before I eat. I consider that to be the same thing.

I find sometimes that the issue of praying with other faiths has brought great opportunities for me to speak about the fellowship doctrine and why we follow it. I've had two friends join the WELS after poo-pooing me on the subject but then researching it. They found that what the WELS believes to be biblical truth.
Oh yes, you are very right about there being a difference between praying in front of someone and praying with them.
I am sorry if I was not clear about that.
There is nothing wrong with praying in front of non-welsers or non-believers. I would say it's a good thing. It's a way of witnessing in your everyday life. (As long as it's not done just for the sake of showing off, then it would be a sin.)

The issue here is, if I have understood it correctly, is that a wels pastor has said to a welsmember that they can pray with people who are not in doctrinal agreement with us. That is not the same thing as praying in front of, or near, people who aren't in fellowship with us.

[maylor]

I sent an email to my pastor today. I'll post his response here when I hear back from him.

[DaRev]

I find sometimes that the issue of praying with other faiths has brought great opportunities for me to speak about the fellowship doctrine and why we follow it.

Pretend I'm one of them. How would you explain it to me?

[PreachersWife2004]

Pretend I'm one of them. How would you explain it to me?

First I would ask you to explain what or how you believe. Based on that, I would then explain why Lutherans don't believe the same. I would also ask what belief you held to in terms of the bible. It's very hard to use scripture to back up a doctrine when I'm dealing with someone who doesn't believe the inerrency of the bible. But, I would go on to point out that the scriptures themselves tell us that we should be unified in faith as well as doctrine in our worship, and that since our prayers go to God, praying is worship as well. So according to scriptures, we should not fellowship with one that we are not united in doctrine with.

In simple non-biblical terms, I say that I am friends with people who I have things in common with. Most, if not all, of my friends share something with me, whether it is a belief, a hobby, a pastime, a liking of shopping, whatever. These are the people that I socialize with. This line of argument is weak, though, and I tend to only use it with people who don't believe in the bible, or who aren't Christians.

I can't attest that my testimony works, but I've had friends who transferred from other churches because they appreciate the doctrine of fellowship once they understand it. I myself only grasped the concept about seven years ago, and I'm a lifelong Lutheran.

I believe it is the hardest doctrine to understand and follow, but once you get it, it makes perfect sense. I have it categorized with closed communion.

[maylor]

Yesterday I sent this email to my pastor:

Hello Pastor,

I have a question about the WELS fellowship doctrine as regards to prayer with non-WELS members.

I recently attended a funeral service for my cousin that was held at a Mormon church. When prayers were offered by various persons during the ceremony, I bowed my head and silently said my own prayer to our Heavenly Father, asking Him to work His will in the lives of my cousin's family and friends through her passing.

Was my behavior appropriate?

I know that Mormons aren't even Christians, let alone not in doctrinal agreement with us.

When a friend or family member (who are actually Christians, but not in doctrinal agreement with us) says a prayer or blessing over a meal while we are visiting their house should we pray with them, or say our own silent prayer, like I did at the funeral, or tell them ahead of time that we can't pray with them?

Can we bow our head and say "amen" at the end of a prayer that is led by someone who is not in doctrinal agreement with us , if we are not actually praying with them, or silently saying our own prayer like I did at the funeral?

I'm pretty sure either _______ or I asked you specifically about when we are at my father's or her mother's, etc., house and someone says a meal blessing. I had thought you said that it was not an issue, but now that I think of it I don't recall exactly what you said about it and neither does _________!

So anyway, if you could clarify for us what the appropriate behavior or response should be for us on the many occasions that this happens, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much.

Regards,

M____________


His email response:

M________,

Knowing the principles of how to handle fellowship issues is fairly easy. Making the applications in each situation--as your questions indicate--is difficult.

Basically, our practice of church fellowship is motivated by three things:

1. Our love for the truth
2. Our love for those with whom we are in complete doctrinal agreement
3. Our love for those who are at risk of being misled by false teachings

Therefore one thing we want is for people to properly understand our actions. The difficulty comes in that it's not always possible to know how people will understand--or misunderstand--our actions. This can be especially hard when we're carrying out those actions in a larger group of people--some of whom will understand our actions perfectly (and therefore we have made the testimony we wanted to make) and some of whom will misunderstand our actions. (There are also those who will understand our actions just fine, but twist and distort those actions. So be it. Even in such cases, we have made our testimony. The fact that it wasn't well-received is nout our fault.)

When we were in high school we would sometimes play some schools that began their sporting events with a prayer over the loudspeaker. We did not bow our heads but simply stood there, looking forward, generally with hands behind the back (as players often do during, say, the singing of the National Anthem). I suppose we could have carried on conversations during that time, but at that point my opinion is that we would have crossed the line to being just plain disrespectful. I guess we could have crossed our arms in front of us, yawned noticeably, and/or looked all around the gym during that time, but again I think there would have been some disrespect there. I felt as though by not adopting the posture of everyone else (heads bowed, eyes closed) we made it clear that we were not participating in the prayer, but by standing there silently we were showing respect (not in the sense of "well, the things you teach and believe are every bit as valid as what we teach and believe" respect, but simple "common decency" respect).

I don't believe that your behavior at the Mormon funeral was inappropriate. I think I might have chosen to adopt more of the approach mentioned in the above paragraph, as your posture could have given others the impression that you were joining in the spoken prayers. But situations such as that are difficult, and knowing where to draw the line is challenging.

For instance, if I attend the wedding of a Catholic relative, I know that I'm not going to participate in the Lord's Supper. I know that I'm not going to join in speaking the Lord's Prayer. I know that not participating in those two things will be noticeable to the people there. But how far should I go in this? If I stand and sit when they stand and sit, am I giving the impression that I'm joining with them in worship--or will my lack of participation in the Lord's Supper and the Lord's Prayer be sufficient to dispel that notion? And if I don't choose to stand and sit when they stand and sit, am I giving a testimony, or am I simply being distracting and almost disruptive? Personally, I believe that I would stand and sit when they do--but I wouldn't condemn someone who chooses to do otherwise and who would argue (perhaps with some justification) that the standing and sitting is part of participation in worship.

As for the situation with table prayers, I will probably give you a similarly indefinite answer. That is, I think it varies according to the situation and the individuals. One thing to consider here is the difference between a weak brother and a persistent errorist. (This is not an issue when dealing with Mormons, as the possibility of someone being a weak brother doesn't exist.) A weak brother is someone who isn't really aware of or doesn't really understand the error in what his church teaches, while a persistent errorist is someone who firmly believes the false teachings of their church and may even promote that error. What is best for a weak brother is often different than what is best for a persistent errorist, as the two often have very different hearts. This distinction is, I believe, quite important in guiding my practice of fellowship in individual situations.

Some other things I might want to ask myself are: What impression will my participation (or lack of participation) in the prayer will give to the individuals at the table? Are they people who clearly understand that we hold different beliefs? Are they something that we have discussed with one another in the past? Will my participation in the prayer falsely give the impression that those differences are of no import? Will my lack of participation in the prayer give the impression that I refuse to view them as a fellow Christian even in spite of the fact that they confess Jesus as their Savior?

Personally, I haven't run into many of these situations in my life, so it's a bit difficult for me to say what I would do in even a hypothetical situation. I do think that whatever I chose to do, I wouldn't make that the sum total of my testimony to the individuals. That is, I would hopefully have already taken the opportunity well before this to discuss religion with the individuals. And if I haven't had that opportunity beforehand, I would certainly make sure to discuss it with them afterwards. Finally, discussion with one another is the best way for me to understand how I can best show love to that person in this area in the future.

I know that this response hasn't given you a one-size-fits-all answer that applies to every situation. In a sense, we kind of yearn for such answers because--from a positive standpoint--we want to be sure that what we are doing is pleasing in God's eyes, and because--from a negative standpoint--mindlessly following a command ("Our church says we can't say 'Come Lord Jesus, be our guest...' with you") is easy, sparing me the difficulty of assessing the situation and prayerfully coming up with a response.

Finally, I guess there are some times that we have to make a decision (and sometimes a spur-of-the-moment one!) that we aren't sure was the right one. So we pray, "Forgive me my hidden faults" and "grant me wisdom in the future" and we move on with a clear conscience.

I had thought about calling you on this, but I decided to type a response instead, and I'm glad I did, as it's good for me be able to take some time to formulate and edit my thoughts on this topic. However, I would also be happy to talk with you about this.

Pastor

[LutheranChick]

maylor,
Excellent response from your Pastor!

[cerette]

Yesterday I sent this email to my pastor:

Hello Pastor,

I have a question about the WELS fellowship doctrine as regards to prayer with non-WELS members.

I recently attended a funeral service for my cousin that was held at a Mormon church. When prayers were offered by various persons during the ceremony, I bowed my head and silently said my own prayer to our Heavenly Father, asking Him to work His will in the lives of my cousin's family and friends through her passing.

Was my behavior appropriate?

I know that Mormons aren't even Christians, let alone not in doctrinal agreement with us.

When a friend or family member (who are actually Christians, but not in doctrinal agreement with us) says a prayer or blessing over a meal while we are visiting their house should we pray with them, or say our own silent prayer, like I did at the funeral, or tell them ahead of time that we can't pray with them?

Can we bow our head and say "amen" at the end of a prayer that is led by someone who is not in doctrinal agreement with us , if we are not actually praying with them, or silently saying our own prayer like I did at the funeral?

I'm pretty sure either _______ or I asked you specifically about when we are at my father's or her mother's, etc., house and someone says a meal blessing. I had thought you said that it was not an issue, but now that I think of it I don't recall exactly what you said about it and neither does _________!

So anyway, if you could clarify for us what the appropriate behavior or response should be for us on the many occasions that this happens, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much.

Regards,

M____________


His email response:

M________,

Knowing the principles of how to handle fellowship issues is fairly easy. Making the applications in each situation--as your questions indicate--is difficult.

Basically, our practice of church fellowship is motivated by three things:

1. Our love for the truth
2. Our love for those with whom we are in complete doctrinal agreement
3. Our love for those who are at risk of being misled by false teachings

Therefore one thing we want is for people to properly understand our actions. The difficulty comes in that it's not always possible to know how people will understand--or misunderstand--our actions. This can be especially hard when we're carrying out those actions in a larger group of people--some of whom will understand our actions perfectly (and therefore we have made the testimony we wanted to make) and some of whom will misunderstand our actions. (There are also those who will understand our actions just fine, but twist and distort those actions. So be it. Even in such cases, we have made our testimony. The fact that it wasn't well-received is nout our fault.)

When we were in high school we would sometimes play some schools that began their sporting events with a prayer over the loudspeaker. We did not bow our heads but simply stood there, looking forward, generally with hands behind the back (as players often do during, say, the singing of the National Anthem). I suppose we could have carried on conversations during that time, but at that point my opinion is that we would have crossed the line to being just plain disrespectful. I guess we could have crossed our arms in front of us, yawned noticeably, and/or looked all around the gym during that time, but again I think there would have been some disrespect there. I felt as though by not adopting the posture of everyone else (heads bowed, eyes closed) we made it clear that we were not participating in the prayer, but by standing there silently we were showing respect (not in the sense of "well, the things you teach and believe are every bit as valid as what we teach and believe" respect, but simple "common decency" respect).

I don't believe that your behavior at the Mormon funeral was inappropriate. I think I might have chosen to adopt more of the approach mentioned in the above paragraph, as your posture could have given others the impression that you were joining in the spoken prayers. But situations such as that are difficult, and knowing where to draw the line is challenging.

For instance, if I attend the wedding of a Catholic relative, I know that I'm not going to participate in the Lord's Supper. I know that I'm not going to join in speaking the Lord's Prayer. I know that not participating in those two things will be noticeable to the people there. But how far should I go in this? If I stand and sit when they stand and sit, am I giving the impression that I'm joining with them in worship--or will my lack of participation in the Lord's Supper and the Lord's Prayer be sufficient to dispel that notion? And if I don't choose to stand and sit when they stand and sit, am I giving a testimony, or am I simply being distracting and almost disruptive? Personally, I believe that I would stand and sit when they do--but I wouldn't condemn someone who chooses to do otherwise and who would argue (perhaps with some justification) that the standing and sitting is part of participation in worship.

As for the situation with table prayers, I will probably give you a similarly indefinite answer. That is, I think it varies according to the situation and the individuals. One thing to consider here is the difference between a weak brother and a persistent errorist. (This is not an issue when dealing with Mormons, as the possibility of someone being a weak brother doesn't exist.) A weak brother is someone who isn't really aware of or doesn't really understand the error in what his church teaches, while a persistent errorist is someone who firmly believes the false teachings of their church and may even promote that error. What is best for a weak brother is often different than what is best for a persistent errorist, as the two often have very different hearts. This distinction is, I believe, quite important in guiding my practice of fellowship in individual situations.

Some other things I might want to ask myself are: What impression will my participation (or lack of participation) in the prayer will give to the individuals at the table? Are they people who clearly understand that we hold different beliefs? Are they something that we have discussed with one another in the past? Will my participation in the prayer falsely give the impression that those differences are of no import? Will my lack of participation in the prayer give the impression that I refuse to view them as a fellow Christian even in spite of the fact that they confess Jesus as their Savior?

Personally, I haven't run into many of these situations in my life, so it's a bit difficult for me to say what I would do in even a hypothetical situation. I do think that whatever I chose to do, I wouldn't make that the sum total of my testimony to the individuals. That is, I would hopefully have already taken the opportunity well before this to discuss religion with the individuals. And if I haven't had that opportunity beforehand, I would certainly make sure to discuss it with them afterwards. Finally, discussion with one another is the best way for me to understand how I can best show love to that person in this area in the future.

I know that this response hasn't given you a one-size-fits-all answer that applies to every situation. In a sense, we kind of yearn for such answers because--from a positive standpoint--we want to be sure that what we are doing is pleasing in God's eyes, and because--from a negative standpoint--mindlessly following a command ("Our church says we can't say 'Come Lord Jesus, be our guest...' with you") is easy, sparing me the difficulty of assessing the situation and prayerfully coming up with a response.

Finally, I guess there are some times that we have to make a decision (and sometimes a spur-of-the-moment one!) that we aren't sure was the right one. So we pray, "Forgive me my hidden faults" and "grant me wisdom in the future" and we move on with a clear conscience.

I had thought about calling you on this, but I decided to type a response instead, and I'm glad I did, as it's good for me be able to take some time to formulate and edit my thoughts on this topic. However, I would also be happy to talk with you about this.

Pastor
Maylor, thanks for sharing your e-mail and your Pastor's reply. I think he said many very good things. :)

A lil note about something you said:
Can we bow our head and say "amen" at the end of a prayer that is led by someone who is not in doctrinal agreement with us , if we are not actually praying with them, or silently saying our own prayer like I did at the funeral?
Saying 'amen' to someone's prayer is praying with them. If you're only saying amen because everyone else does it, it is an empty word, but would give the others the false impression that you did in fact join in the prayer.

[DaRev]

I know this may be taken wrong here...

I have always been curious as to what happened within the WELS that caused them to change their fellowship policy. The WELS used to be in full fellowship with the LCMS until 1961. The LCMS has historically never believed in the same fellowship standard as the WELS does now. Something must have occured within the WELS to have resulted in such a major change of position.

Just curious...

[maylor]

I know this may be taken wrong here...

I have always been curious as to what happened within the WELS that caused them to change their fellowship policy. The WELS used to be in full fellowship with the LCMS until 1961. The LCMS has historically never believed in the same fellowship standard as the WELS does now. Something must have occured within the WELS to have resulted in such a major change of position.

Just curious...
The WELS claims that the LCMS changed its doctrine on fellowship and that's why they had to break away from them. I'm quite ignorant of the history of either synod, but it saddens me that they are not in fellowship with each other, and I realize this is more the doing of the WELS than anything else.

[cerette]

I know this may be taken wrong here...

I have always been curious as to what happened within the WELS that caused them to change their fellowship policy. The WELS used to be in full fellowship with the LCMS until 1961. The LCMS has historically never believed in the same fellowship standard as the WELS does now. Something must have occured within the WELS to have resulted in such a major change of position.

Just curious...
WELS doesn't believe in 'levels of fellowship', either you are in fellowship or you are not. LCMS could pray in gatherings etc with groups they are not in Communion fellowship with = levels of fellowship.

This is what i have been told.

[PreachersWife2004]

When the WELS broke from the LCMS, it started mainly because LCMS was having talks with the ALC at the time, who believed in some fairly different doctrines (they are now conglomerated with the ELCA). LCMS then opened fellowship to them, even though doctrinal agreement wasn't quite there. In that, we could no longer hold fellowship with LCMS, as by their own fellowshipping with ALC, they had changed their view on fellowship.

We've always felt this way...we just had to actually put it on paper when the split occurred.

[DaRev]

When the WELS broke from the LCMS, it started mainly because LCMS was having talks with the ALC at the time, who believed in some fairly different doctrines (they are now conglomerated with the ELCA). LCMS then opened fellowship to them, even though doctrinal agreement wasn't quite there. In that, we could no longer hold fellowship with LCMS, as by their own fellowshipping with ALC, they had changed their view on fellowship.

Actually, the LCMS didn't change their view on fellowship, thus their persuit of fellowship with the ALC of 1960. The LCMS was also persuing fellowship with the ALC of 1930 years before which didn't prompt the WELS to beak fellowship at that time.

We've always felt this way...we just had to actually put it on paper when the split occurred.

I'm not convinced of that since the WELS maintained full fellowship with the LCMS for nearly 90 years.

The whole thing just intrigues me.

It's sad that the LCMS has drifted as it has. I would much rather have working relationships with the WELS/ELS than some of the relationships we currently have with the ELCA (although the LCMS dictates most of those relationships).

[cerette]

Actually, the LCMS didn't change their view on fellowship, thus their persuit of fellowship with the ALC of 1960. The LCMS was also persuing fellowship with the ALC of 1930 years before which didn't prompt the WELS to beak fellowship at that time.



I'm not convinced of that since the WELS maintained full fellowship with the LCMS for nearly 90 years.

The whole thing just intrigues me.

It's sad that the LCMS has drifted as it has. I would much rather have working relationships with the WELS/ELS than some of the relationships we currently have with the ELCA (although the LCMS dictates most of those relationships).
DaRev, how do you feel about the fellowship LCMS has with ELCA?

[DaRev]

DaRev, how do you feel about the fellowship LCMS has with ELCA?

There is no "fellowship" between the LCMS and the ELCA. There are some "working relationships" between us (high school associations, etc.) but no fellowship. Officially, the LCMS holds that the ELCA is not an orthodox Lutheran church body. Even the working associations (known as RSO's - Recognized Service Organizations) are run under LCMS policies.

[cerette]

There is no "fellowship" between the LCMS and the ELCA. There are some "working relationships" between us (high school associations, etc.) but no fellowship. Officially, the LCMS holds that the ELCA is not an orthodox Lutheran church body. Even the working associations (known as RSO's - Recognized Service Organizations) are run under LCMS policies.
Oh I must have misread your statement about relationships. Sorry.

[PreachersWife2004]

Actually, the LCMS didn't change their view on fellowship, thus their persuit of fellowship with the ALC of 1960. The LCMS was also persuing fellowship with the ALC of 1930 years before which didn't prompt the WELS to beak fellowship at that time.

As I recall, that was because no fellowship was declared with the ALC.

I'm not convinced of that since the WELS maintained full fellowship with the LCMS for nearly 90 years.

The whole thing just intrigues me.

It's sad that the LCMS has drifted as it has. I would much rather have working relationships with the WELS/ELS than some of the relationships we currently have with the ELCA (although the LCMS dictates most of those relationships).

It's also my understanding that there was more than just fellowship doctrines at play during the split. I need to re-read on both sides about the split. It was a sad day for the WELS, I can tell you that much.

I truly hope that one day there will be fellowship between the two again, but I ain't holding my breath. I just thank God that our differences are not the type to keep people out of heaven, ya know?

[DaRev]

As I recall, that was because no fellowship was declared with the ALC.

But there as also no fellowship declared with the ALC of 1960 when the WELS broke fellowship in 1961. The LCMS didn't declare fellowship with the ALC until 1969, eight years after the fact.

[NordicLutheran]

I had no idea WELS people couldn't pray with other non-WELS people. Did the WELS only pray with WELS/LCMS when they were in fellowship and when did the prayer with members only doctrine start? Info would be greatly appreciated :)

[jenley]

My ex husband and I were both LCMS. When we got married he moved here from CA and we attended my church. He had a problem with the adult Bible class teacher and that led to picking apart everything, the ride home after church got to be torture. He researched and started attending a WELS church about 20 miles away. I went with him about once a month. It got to be My church, HIS church and neither of us wanted to change...

Then his church started a mission church near our house. It was a great compromise for us. I became the church secretary by default, I offered to proofread the bulletin when the typos got to be too much for me:)

In the divorce, I got to keep the church...

I like that is it more conservative, I have no problem with the Biblical 'rules'

[DaRev]

Welcome to TCL! :wave:

[jenley]

Thanks :)

[seajoy]

Yes, welcome jenley! Woohoo....a fellow WELS'er! :clap:

[PreachersWife2004]

But there as also no fellowship declared with the ALC of 1960 when the WELS broke fellowship in 1961. The LCMS didn't declare fellowship with the ALC until 1969, eight years after the fact.

As I said, there was more than just fellowship issues at play. Many straws led to the breaking of the camel's back.

[LutheranChick]

Welcome, jenley! Great to see yet another WELS member on the boards- I am ELS, myself!

[Jim47]

Welcome to the forum Jenley. I hope we see you here often. :wave:

[DaRev]

As I said, there was more than just fellowship issues at play. Many straws led to the breaking of the camel's back.

Whatever. It's not worth arguing over anymore.

[PreachersWife2004]

Whatever. It's not worth arguing over anymore.

I don't think we were arguing. I think there is much more history in the split than you or I will ever know, to be honest.

Like I said, thankfully the differences aren't salvation issues.

[NordicLutheran]

If the differences are so big, why not make a seperate LCMS and WELS forum section. That would solve the problem?

[seajoy]

If the differences are so big, why not make a seperate LCMS and WELS forum section. That would solve the problem?
Because there is a liberal forum and conservative forum already. We have differing views here from time to time, but we are dear brothers and sisters in Christ. As PW said.....thankfully the differences aren't salvation issues.
Please don't try and draw lines in the sand in this part of the forum. It is a safe-haven for most of us who need to get away from the oft liberal issues that come up in TCL's general foum.
Thank you :)

[DaRev]

Besides, we want to do whatever is necessary to bridge the gap between the Missouri and Wisconsin synods, not make it wider.

[seajoy]

:)

[porterross]

Well, OK, but I'd have a hard time keeping my snowballs to myself if we all had to move to Wisconsin. :P

[BreadAlone]

Well, OK, but I'd have a hard time keeping my snowballs to myself if we all had to move to Wisconsin. :P
I take offense to that.






















(;))

[DaRev]

Well, OK, but I'd have a hard time keeping my snowballs to myself if we all had to move to Wisconsin. :P

I'd be disappointed if you did otherwise. :D

[jenley]

Well, OK, but I'd have a hard time keeping my snowballs to myself if we all had to move to Wisconsin. :P
Well obviously they let some of us out of the state ;)

[NordicLutheran]

Because there is a liberal forum and conservative forum already. We have differing views here from time to time, but we are dear brothers and sisters in Christ. As PW said.....thankfully the differences aren't salvation issues.
Please don't try and draw lines in the sand in this part of the forum. It is a safe-haven for most of us who need to get away from the oft liberal issues that come up in TCL's general foum.
Thank you :)
I hate the terms liberal and conservative. I really wish that they weren't part of religious vocabulary, but they apply so well. Honestly, the main forum is not dominated by liberal Lutherans, I really haven't seen one post in quite some time. The liberal subforum is essentially dead. Maybe a renaming of the forums that we have now, to keep some of the political terminology out of it? For example: The main forum, the progressive/contemporary forum, and the confessional/historical forum?

[RadMan]

No this subforum is a safe havens for conservative confessionals. It was voted on previously and will stay that way until voted otherwise. Let the "higher-critical" stay in their own subforum. The TCL forum is for anyone, no matter what denom they are, to come and discuss issues with any Lutheran (liberal or conservative). The only criteria is that they don't quote from their respective sources but just use the Bible for discussion.