Food

[YahshuaWitness]

I had a question for all you messianics. Which of you believe in just eating kosher food? Which of you believe it was all made clean by YAHSHUA's blood?

[HephzibahBenJudah]

Hello I was grafted into the vine...I personally believe if we eat what was set forth in the OT under the law that it does have many health benefits.

In the NT Jesus said it isn't what goes into a person that defiles them but what comes out of the mouth because out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

I am also reminded of the dream Peter had of the cloth with all kinds of animals and God told him to rise kill and eat and Peter said," Not so Lord for I'm a Jew and these are unclean."

God told him what God has cleased don't call unclean.

Meaning the house of Cornelius a Gentile would also receive household salvation and that Peter must go and preach to him and his household.

So for health reasons I think it's best to stick with the OT guidelines but ultimately
we should be concerned with what Jesus was concerned with spiritually speaking.

[Torah]

posted this two times.

[Torah]

I had a question for all you messianics. Which of you believe in just eating kosher food? Which of you believe it was all made clean by YAHSHUA's blood?
G-d declared what is to be considered “FOOD” for human in Lev chapter 11.

Where does it say that, what ever you want to eat, is considered food, because of Yeshua blood?

[HadassahSukkot]

G-d declared what is to be considered “FOOD” for human in Lev chapter 11.

Where does it say that, what ever you want to eat, is considered food, because of Yeshua blood?
Thank you, I wanted to ask the same question.

Our meat is generally purchased Glatt Kosher. We do get fish from another source though as we can't seem to procure fresh fish from our Kosher source. Eggs we get locally.

My Milk (Whole and unhomogenized) - I can't find with a hescher.

But such is the life in Germany and not the US. It was much easier to find everything Kosher in my area.

[HephzibahBenJudah]

Mat 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Mat 15:20 These are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.



Act 11:5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:

Act 11:6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

Act 11:7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.

Act 11:8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.

Act 11:9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.

Act 11:10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.

[HephzibahBenJudah]

1Cr 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
1Cr 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.


That's why I answered the OP the way I did. I personally think that the OT has a "Biblical diet" if you eat can help heal or prevent health problems.
However, Jesus was more concerned with
the heart of man and not the stomach.

[christinepro]

We don't eat Kosher for salvation but it is to be blessed on earth and I believe that it is pleasing to G-d. I believe that the Bible doesn't contradict itself and there is such a gentile twist on things. Peter's vision had to do with association with gentiles. You could see this if you read on. Matthew 5:17, Yeshua is quoted as saying, “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished. Idon't believe the heaven and the earth passed away yet. Yeshua fulfilled the prophecy. His grace is that the penalty for sin is no longer death and that we have him as a mediator to G-d. I believe that Paul is not bashing the law but he stating that people that don't know the law are righteous as long as they are G-d fearing. Paul has a plan. Start with Milk then Meat.

[visionary]

http://www.christianforums.com/t29043-eating-kosher.html

http://www.christianforums.com/t2574948-did-the-apostles-break-the-kosher-laws.html

http://www.christianforums.com/t60538

[HephzibahBenJudah]

Great links thanks for posting these.

Paul has a plan. Start with Milk then Meat.

Paul was talking of spiritual diets. 1 Cor. chapter three. Actually He was admonishing new believers to grow in Christ and also reprimanding those that should be teachers and still yet carnal.
Thus the milk and meat Paul refers to.
Being fed milk or general principles and meat being the mature food spiritually.

[ShammahBenJudah]

I had a question for all you messianics. Which of you believe in just eating kosher food? Which of you believe it was all made clean by YAHSHUA's blood?

G-d declared what is to be considered “FOOD” for human in Lev chapter 11.

Where does it say that, what ever you want to eat, is considered food, because of Yeshua blood?

I had the same question about the atonement...I can't see how the blood of Yeshua has any effect on what a proper diet is.

YahshuaWitness, are you asking about a "legal" issue...such as...is eating bacon a sin?

Assuming you're a natural born gentile, this may be of some interest to you:

But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, "Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as He did unto us; and put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

Known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: but that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Acts 15:5-10, 18-20

For those of us who walk in some degree of what they call "Messianic Denominations", the answer is probably found in the measure of weight that is given to Torah Observance.

Legalistically, I don't believe we're bound to the dietary Laws...save those mentioned above. But The dietary laws are for our benefit. We are healthier when we keep them.

When they are kept with the spirit of the Laws intention, it is a wonderful blessing to follow the ways of our Lord.

BTW, Hi everybody! Have a blessed New Year!

May your hearts be filled with thanks!
May your lips be filled with praise!
May your lives be filled with joy!
And may your home be filled with shalom!

[debi b]

Have you ever tried to teach a child math? Now math is a pretty abstract concept to begin with. We have to teach it in stages. You have to get a child to make an association between the numeral 2 and what it represents - and that is just to get them to understand how to count.

I have heard so many people tell me that they do well thank you very much understanding the "spirit" with out even knowing what the "letter" says. This is a perilous path fraught with difficulty IMO.

I believe there is a great deal more than physical health that can be learned :wave:

[Steve Petersen]

I had a question for all you messianics. Which of you believe in just eating kosher food? Which of you believe it was all made clean by YAHSHUA's blood?

If Jesus came to 'free' us from the Torah's injunction about food, then he is a false prophet and was correctly put to death. See Deuteronomy 13.

[Ivy]

My take on it is that Jewish-born people should be free to observe the Biblical dietary laws, and that no Gentile has a business looking down on them for doing do. Discipline in eating is a very important spiritual issue, and I admire that as a role model.

[Colabomb]

For me its easy. Gentiles were never given the Law.

Whether or not Jews follow the Law is between them and God. Many Gentiles were made righteous in the Old Testament without the Law, and even more were made righteous in the new.

He made a covenant with one nation that included several conditions. We as Gentiles were outside that covenant, meaning we receive neither the Difficulties Law Nor the Blessing that Comes through adhering to it.

When Gentiles were given Salvation through Christ, it was just that, Salvation through Christ. We were not given a mandate to emulate the heritage of Israel.

[Steve Petersen]

We were not given a mandate to emulate the heritage of Israel.

But your Messiah is Jewish and practised Judaism of his day. Paul tells us to imitate him as he imitates Christ.

Imitation (down to the slightest nuance) is what discipleship is about. So, if Jesus kept kosher, so must his disciples.

[Ivy]

If Jesus died on a cross, so must his disciples.

But I suspect that will be less appealing than a bacon ban.

[Steve Petersen]

If Jesus died on a cross, so must his disciples.

But I suspect that will be less appealing than a bacon ban.


Perhaps I should have been more specific. Imitation of his Torah practice. Read the Mishnah and Talmud. You will see what I am talking about. They contain lengthy discussion about how to do various Torah commandments. Disciples of various sages had varying practices. To be a disciple was to do it the way your master did. This is still a common practice in Orthodox Jewish circles.

[Ivy]

I know......and that's why I think it's a good idea for Jewish believers.

[Steve Petersen]

I know......and that's why I think it's a good idea for Jewish believers.

What about Gentile believers? If discipleship is as I have noted, then Gentiles should do them to. Otherwise, only Jews can be disciples of Jesus.

[Colabomb]

Paul goes from saying not to concern yourself with where your food comes from (contrary to Jewish Law), says imitate me as I imitate Christ, and then talks about the Biblical Role of men and women, mirroring that of the Church and Christ.

How can you read that to indicate he is speaking about Torah Observance?


(I assume you are talking about 1Co. 11:1 right?)

[Steve Petersen]

Paul goes from saying not to concern yourself with where your food comes from (contrary to Jewish Law)

Perhaps you could elucidate a bit on in what manner it was contrary to Jewish law. What foods is he talking about; under what condition was the food obtained. Who is Paul writing to? Jewish belivers? Gentiles? Both?

[Colabomb]

Jewish belivers? Gentiles? Both?

I'll answer your other questions in a sec, but i thought under your thoelogy that was irrelevant.

[visionary]

Moved to debate to allow for continued discussion with non members.

[YahshuaWitness]

Thanks for all the info.
My personal belief is that the kosher does not apply to us nomore BUT it is beneficial to your health. It was cleaned by the blood of YAHSHUA!

[visionary]

Thanks for all the info.
My personal belief is that the kosher does not apply to us nomore BUT it is beneficial to your health. It was cleaned by the blood of YAHSHUA!If you are solid on this point why ask us who believe differently?

[HephzibahBenJudah]

Maybe to find commonality in our beliefs so that we can understand one another better and thus understand God better.
He is One God and He I believe is looking for One people...(followers of Yeshua)

[Ivy]

I think there was a related discussion on Acts 15 awhile back which might interest people. If you just use the search feature & type in "Acts 15," I imagine it will pop up.

I have no problem with a Jewish person who wants to keep kosher. I have no problem with any Gentile who wants to go along for the ride and do the same. In fact, I don't eat pork or shellfish myself for health reasons.

What I have a problem with is people trying to make this obligatory for Gentiles. I think that's a little................ a) delusional b) over-controlling. Acts 15 doesn't seem to support the notion at all.

[christinepro]

I think there was a related discussion on Acts 15 awhile back which might interest people. If you just use the search feature & type in "Acts 15," I imagine it will pop up.

I have no problem with a Jewish person who wants to keep kosher. I have no problem with any Gentile who wants to go along for the ride and do the same. In fact, I don't eat pork or shellfish myself for health reasons.

What I have a problem with is people trying to make this obligatory for Gentiles. I think that's a little................ a) delusional b) over-controlling. Acts 15 doesn't seem to support the notion at all.
Acts15:21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."First milk for the gentiles then meat. It is a personal thing. A relationship between G-d and man. Nobody should judge.

[Ivy]

That's right, NObody should judge.

While you're quoting, quote the preceding two verses.

[christinepro]

That's right, NObody should judge.

While you're quoting, quote the preceding two verses.

19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath." Then why do so many Christians eat hot dogs containing meat biproducts? There is blood in the biproducts. I also have seen them eat rabbits that have been snared and eat blood sausage. These verses look like the starting point for Gentiles because they are preaching Moses and honoring the Shabbat. Milk then meat.

[Colabomb]

That's right, NObody should judge.

While you're quoting, quote the preceding two verses.

Act 15:19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God,
Act 15:20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.


Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
(Col 2:16-17)


I think these are fitting

[Ivy]

19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath." Then why do so many Christians eat hot dogs containing meat biproducts? There is blood in the biproducts. I also have seen them eat rabbits that have been snared and eat blood sausage. These verses look like the starting point for Gentiles because they are preaching Moses and honoring the Shabbat. Milk then meat.

The reasons they do so may range from simply not knowing what's in the meat to a differing scriptural interpretation.....one interpretation I have heard states that to abstain from blood means to abstain from murder, and I think this is similar to the Noachide laws.

I'm not really sure why it bothers you what some Gentiles eat. I'm not sure it is all that productive to be preoccupied with others' eating habits.

The best thing to do is to watch your own heart before God, rather than looking at others. If something about them bothers you, then pray for them, rather than obsessing about their behavior.

[christinepro]

The reasons they do so may range from simply not knowing what's in the meat to a differing scriptural interpretation.....one interpretation I have heard states that to abstain from blood means to abstain from murder, and I think this is similar to the Noachide laws.

I'm not really sure why it bothers you what some Gentiles eat. I'm not sure it is all that productive to be preoccupied with others' eating habits.

The best thing to do is to watch your own heart before God, rather than looking at others. If something about them bothers you, then pray for them, rather than obsessing about their behavior. I don't care what other people eat, but it seems like you really wanted us to read Acts 15. I think that it bothers you that we try to keep the Mitzvot. Could you please elaborate? How about Tithing? I have been to so many Christian churches and they talk against God's laws but then say to people that they have to tithe and they shouldn't drink. I call this a cut and past bible.

[A_Pioneer]

Request fullfilled

[Colabomb]

Mares eat oats, cows eat oats and little lambs eat Ivy.

Pigs can fly, Ivy pigs that is, they have no fat and hollow bones and no Doctor has ever banned the as food for their "Heart Patients"!

Shalom

:scratch:

[A_Pioneer]

Thats a lie and thats the truth!

LOL

To be twenty again. LOL

Nursery Rhymes and Country Songs. Colabomb!

Stay loose. LOL

Shalom

[Ivy]

A_Pioneer, people who refer to other people as pigs--an infantile behavior if you ask me-- get welcomed to my Ignore List. Welcome to my Ignore List.

[Ivy]

I don't care what other people eat, but it seems like you really wanted us to read Acts 15. I think that it bothers you that we try to keep the Mitzvot. Could you please elaborate? How about Tithing? I have been to so many Christian churches and they talk against God's laws but then say to people that they have to tithe and they shouldn't drink. I call this a cut and past bible.

I don't see why it would bother me that Jewish people observe mitzvot. I've been a member of a Messianic synagogue for over 13 years and also have many friends in the local Conservative-Liberal shul.

It's important to have spiritual disciplines in our walk with God, and I have no quarrel with it.

What I do have a problem with is those who get emotional about the fact that others choose different ways to have that discipline.

[christinepro]

I don't see why it would bother me that Jewish people observe mitzvot. I've been a member of a Messianic synagogue for over 13 years and also have many friends in the local Conservative-Liberal shul.

It's important to have spiritual disciplines in our walk with God, and I have no quarrel with it.

What I do have a problem with is those who get emotional about the fact that others choose different ways to have that discipline. I don't have a problem with others choosing different ways to have discipline but it just seems like they want to know why we do the things we do and then get angry when we show them why and defend ourselves. They shouldn't ask and share their opinions if they know that they are not going to like the outcome.:)

[Ivy]

I agree with you that some Christians have an issue about Jewish people being Torah-observant--but they have no business having an issue about it. It's the same phenomenon of misplaced indignance, from the other side of the fence.

I personally don't have an issue with Jewish people keeping mitzvot; I value the Jewish covenantal witness deeply from my heart & support it.

Are you Jewish?

[Colabomb]

I have no issue with Jews who keep the Law. Nor do i have issues with people like myself who do not choose to observe because it was not put on me, the blessing or the obligation.

I have an issue with Jews who want to force the law on Gentiles, and Gentiles who want to take the law away from Jews.

Let the Jews be Jews, let the Gentiles be Gentiles. Neither are Evil. Neither are without God.

We have the same PERSONAL relationship with God through Christ. We simply have a different NATIONAL relationship with God.

[christinepro]

I agree with you that some Christians have an issue about Jewish people being Torah-observant--but they have no business having an issue about it. It's the same phenomenon of misplaced indignance, from the other side of the fence.

I personally don't have an issue with Jewish people keeping mitzvot; I value the Jewish convenantal witness deeply from my heart & support it.

Are you Jewish?

I am not Jewish but feel led to follow the mitvot. I found that as time goes by I am getting better at doing this. I know it is the L-rd that is taking things out of my life. We have a wonderful congregation of a mixture of Jews and Gentiles and we have common goals.

[A_Pioneer]

People who refer to other people as pigs--an infantile behavior if you ask me-- get welcomed to my Ignore List. Welcome to my Ignore List.
I said your brand of pigs have hollow bones, I never called you anything. But thanks for putting me on your ignore list.
When someone comes to my house and instigates trouble, I sometimes feel like insulting the person but as in this case I insulted your POV.
Yes, I'm in my second childhood. But I have never gone into another forum and screamed at my host!

By the rules she shouldn't be here posting inflamatory posts and getting by with it!

Shalom

[Ivy]

I am not Jewish but feel led to follow the mitvot. I found that as time goes by I am getting better at doing this. I know it is the L-rd that is taking things out of my life. We have a wonderful congregation of a mixture of Jews and Gentiles and we have common goals.

OK--well, as I said there is benefit in spiritual discipline, and eating is a huge (pardon the expression ;) ) area that we all need to learn self-control in.

However, there isn't any additional benefit in feeling "obligated" to Jewish practice when you actually are not--that won't increase the benefit to you; and there isn't benefit in feeling frustration with other Gentiles who are not being led the way you are.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy your path and find a blessing in it. :)

[Ivy]

I have no issue with Jews who keep the Law. Nor do i have issues with people like myself who do not choose to observe because it was not put on me, the blessing or the obligation.

I have an issue with Jews who want to force the law on Gentiles, and Gentiles who want to take the law away from Jews.

Let the Jews be Jews, let the Gentiles be Gentiles. Neither are Evil. Neither are without God.

We have the same PERSONAL relationship with God through Christ. We simply have a different NATIONAL relationship with God.

Amen, Colabomb :)

[christinepro]

OK--well, as I said there is benefit in spiritual discipline, and eating is a huge (pardon the expression ;) ) area that we all need to learn self-control in.

However, there isn't any additional benefit in feeling "obligated" to Jewish practice when you actually are not--that won't increase the benefit to you; and there isn't benefit in feeling frustration with other Gentiles who are not being led the way you are.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy your path and find a blessing in it. :)

Thanks. I hope you don't feel frustrated about Gentiles who want to keep the mitzvot. I don't feel frustrated about Gentiles who don't. The thing i'd like to remind you is that it is not a Jewish thing but it is for all of Israel. Ruth 1:16 And Ruth said: 'Entreat me not to leave thee, and to return from following after thee; for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge; thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God;

[Ivy]

Of course I don't feel frustrated--though it gives me pause if, as a consequence, those mitzvot-keeping Gentiles become judgemental towards other Gentiles who do not.

Then the whole purpose has been defeated....the person may have acquired discipline in eating, but also acquired a judging attitude, which is a serious spiritual problem that Paul cautions us against in the book of Romans.

I think it's a matter of: you believe that you, as a Gentile, are obligated; I believe that I, as a Gentile, am not obligated. I don't feel convicted about this; you do.

That's O.K. I wouldn't want to interfere with your conscience pertaining to what you feel God has asked you to do. I'm sure you'll be blessed for trying to follow His leading in your life.

[christinepro]

Of course I don't feel frustrated--though it gives me pause if, as a consequence, those mitzvot-keeping Gentiles become judgemental towards other Gentiles who do not.

Then the whole purpose has been defeated....the person may have acquired discipline in eating, but also acquired a judging attitude, which is a serious spiritual problem that Paul cautions us against in the book of Romans.

I think it's a matter of: you believe that you, as a Gentile, are obligated; I believe that I, as a Gentile, am not obligated. I don't feel convicted about this; you do.

That's O.K. I wouldn't want to interfere with your conscience pertaining to what you feel God has asked you to do. I'm sure you'll be blessed for trying to follow His leading in your life. Eat away!!

[visionary]

Of course I don't feel frustrated--though it gives me pause if, as a consequence, those mitzvot-keeping Gentiles become judgemental towards other Gentiles who do not.

Then the whole purpose has been defeated....the person may have acquired discipline in eating, but also acquired a judging attitude, which is a serious spiritual problem that Paul cautions us against in the book of Romans.

I think it's a matter of: you believe that you, as a Gentile, are obligated; I believe that I, as a Gentile, am not obligated. I don't feel convicted about this; you do.

That's O.K. I wouldn't want to interfere with your conscience pertaining to what you feel God has asked you to do. I'm sure you'll be blessed for trying to follow His leading in your life.and vise versa

[Ivy]

Thank you Vis. :) It's good to know that the Good Shepherd is guiding each one of our paths.

Eat away?........hmmmmm......I think I'll start with that Snickers bar I stowed away in the freezer. ;) But actually--now to astonish you--I don't eat pork or shellfish, for health reasons.

[christinepro]

Thank you Vis. :) It's good to know that the Good Shepherd is guiding each one of our paths.

Eat away?........hmmmmm......I think I'll start with that Snickers bar I stowed away in the freezer. ;) But actually--now to astonish you--I don't eat pork or shellfish, for health reasons. Oh no Snickers!! Do you think the Seventh Day Adventists would agree with what you're doing? You could always ask them.

[Ivy]

It's probably o.k. as long as I don't eat 'em on the Sabbath. :D

Though back when I was expecting my first child, my SDA midwife took me to task for eating too many Reese's peanut butter cups. :sorry: ;)

[SingingElk]

I don't consume pork, shellfish or crustaceans because I have not found any scriptural reason why I should. All the arguments thus far for eating such food are too thin to convince me. Besides, they make me ill because they are too hard to digest. Foods that contain lard make me sick. I have to be careful with fried foods to make sure they have not been fried in lard.

What you decide pertaining to your diet is between you and G-d. I am just not convinced that pork, shellfish and crustaceans are proper food.

[Henaynei]

G-d declared what is to be considered “FOOD” for human in Lev chapter 11.

Where does it say that, what ever you want to eat, is considered food, because of Yeshua blood?

Mat 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Mat 15:20 These are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.



Act 11:5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:

Act 11:6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

Act 11:7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.

Act 11:8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.

Act 11:9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.

Act 11:10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.

Thanks for all the info.
My personal belief is that the kosher does not apply to us nomore BUT it is beneficial to your health. It was cleaned by the blood of YAHSHUA!
Peter's Vision


It has been asked "why do you (Messianic Jews) continue to keep the food laws (Torah kosher laws) when Peter was told in Acts that all things are permissible to be eaten?"

1) Is that really what the "whole counsel" of the Scripture says?
and
2) Not all Messianic Jews keep any level of kosher - but a great many do.

Therefore I would like to attempt a short (LOL) answer for those who do, like myself.

Much has been taught about Acts 10. Let us agree together to look at what scripture says....
Due to space I have skipped some verses so that we might address the topic here - but do read it all..... Come, let us reason together and agree on the following:

1) All Scripture is G-d breathed
2) G-d does not change, neither amends His promises or His word.
3) Scripture is the first place to go to find the meaning of Scripture and the meaning Scripture gives itself is the primary one to be taken.
4) When we find the plain meaning of a Scripture then humility and obedience are the hallmarks of our love and service to the Messiah.

Agreed? Good Here we go.

Acts 10:11-35
11 [Peter looked] and saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12 Wherein were all manner of four-footed beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13 And there came a voice to him, "Rise, Peter; kill, and eat."
14 But Peter said, "Not so, L-rd; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean."
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, "What G-d hath cleansed, that call not thou common."

Now some folks stop here and say "it's plain and done" - but what did Peter do at this point, and afterwards? Did Scripture ever tell us what this vision meant? Are we supposed to just guess?

Acts 10 continues
16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
17a Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean,

Hmmm.... seems Peter did not think it meant to go eat unkosher foods (no matter *what* some current teachings say) - rather it confused him because G-d had said at Mt. Sinai that the laws of clean and unclean foods would stand forever, and neither G-d nor His Word changes - Amen??

So did G-d leave him in a quandry or was G-d preparing him for something - what WAS G-d teaching him?

17b behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,
18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.
19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, "Behold, three men seek thee.
20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them."
25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him
27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.

28 And he said unto them, "Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing (according to the Oral Tradition) for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but G-d hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

29 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?"
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, "Of a truth I perceive that G-d is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

Now, mind you - Peter did not say EVERY man in every nation feareth G-d and work righteousness, any more than every animal is clean - only those foods and men G-d has called clean.

Please also note that many Messianic Believers believe that the Kosher Laws were given only to the Jews and not the Gentiles. Views for and against this opinion are much too lengthy and involved for me to post.

[SingingElk]

Mat 15:20 These are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Jesus is talking about unwashed hands here, not pork. Eating pork may not necessarily defile you spiritually, but it still is not proper healthy food.

[debi b]

What you decide pertaining to your diet is between you and G-d. I am just not convinced that pork, shellfish and crustaceans are proper food.

I am pretty sure they are not food at all ;)

It is ironic to me that we are unaware how subjective the subject of food is. Have you ever watched the travel channel? Especially shows about certain countries and what they eat. We tend to be horrified by what some people consider food and do not use those things as a litmus test for spirituallity - some folks consider it a delicasy to eat things like scorpions and cockroaches. As for the cockroaches I even heard that they were having a hard time keeping up with the demand!

CATS - the other white meat :P

[HadassahSukkot]

Thanks Henny and SingingElk

[christinepro]

I am pretty sure they are not food at all ;)

It is ironic to me that we are unaware how subjective the subject of food is. Have you ever watched the travel channel? Especially shows about certain countries and what they eat. We tend to be horrified by what some people consider food and do not use those things as a litmus test for spirituallity - some folks consider it a delicasy to eat things like scorpions and cockroaches. As for the cockroaches I even heard that they were having a hard time keeping up with the demand!

CATS - the other white meat :P
Yum!!. I regard pork and shellfish along those lines too. Pigs don't chew the cut, they don't have sweat glands, and they eat garbage. I heard a murderer on t.v. state "you would be surprised what a pig eats." As far as shellfish, they are bottom feeders. I heard of a story where some boaters dumped out their latrine and contaminated a whole oyster bed. Happy eating!!

[Steve Petersen]

When discussing food in the NT one needs to be aware of Pharisaic practices.

The Talmud makes it clear that food and drink belonging to Gentiles must be regarded as 'koine' or common. Though the meat may be permissible under Lev. 11 criteria alone, it must be assumed that it had been offered to an idol and therefore not permissible to eat.

Food that was Levitcally unclean was called 'akathartos' in the NT. Peter uses both these words in Acts 10:14.

Acts 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common (koine) or unclean (akathartos).

Now, skip ahead to Romans 14:14

Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Here Paul seems to be saying that there is nothing that is Levitically unclean. One would assume that the Greek word he used here to express Levitically unclean would be the same one used in Acts 10 (that is 'akathartos.) But you would be wrong. The word Paul uses here is 'koine', which we have shown above refers to Levitcally clean food that had been renedered unfit due to possible connection to idolatry. Why did the translators translate 'koine' in Acts 10 as 'common', but then translate that same word here as 'unclean?' I suspect a theological bias against keeping kosher.

[simchat_torah]

Excellent points Steve. I enjoyed the post immensely.

[SingingElk]

Yum!!. I regard pork and shellfish along those lines too. Pigs don't chew the cut, they don't have sweat glands, and they eat garbage. I heard a murderer on t.v. state "you would be surprised what a pig eats." As far as shellfish, they are bottom feeders. I heard of a story where some boaters dumped out their latrine and contaminated a whole oyster bed. Happy eating!!

:sick: This is precisely why I keep kosher. Pigs also will follow the cattle and eat their dung. You will also be surprised what kind of ingredients are added to non kosher foods. Ground up human hair is sometimes used as an emulsifier for prepackaged puddings and gelatins. I think it is called "emulsified animal Protein" or keratin. -And don't get me started on non kosher hot dogs, even the beef and chicken ones. Parts of the animal you would be ashamed to mention to your grandma are in there.

[Ivy]

I think with shellfish, there's also an issue with mercury, isn't there?

[Colabomb]

All food is potentially dangerous.

[SingingElk]

I woke up this morning with the runs from eating beef sausage not marked with the little 'K'. I'm not doing that again! We've been snowed in so we haven't been able to drive into town where I can get my kosher meats.

[christinepro]

I woke up this morning with the runs from eating beef sausage not marked with the little 'K'. I'm not doing that again! We've been snowed in so we haven't been able to drive into town where I can get my kosher meats. We only have Halal meat here. I wonder what the cashier thinks of me when I buy it!

[Colabomb]

We only have Halal meat here. I wonder what the cashier thinks of me when I buy it!

There's not a large enough Jewish Community in your area to have Kosher foods?

I've seen kosher food in almost every store i go to.

I admit though, i don't know about meat. I never looked for kosher meat simply because i don't keep kosher.

Is kosher meat hard to find?

I've only seen one halal store in my lifetime.

[christinepro]

There's not a large enough Jewish Community in your area to have Kosher foods?

I've seen kosher food in almost every store i go to.

I admit though, i don't know about meat. I never looked for kosher meat simply because i don't keep kosher.

Is kosher meat hard to find?

I've only seen one halal store in my lifetime.
We don't have a very large Jewish community here. We have Kosher food but not meat. It's not hard to find in Toronto. That is a three hour drive. The Halal meat is the same.

[Henaynei]

There's not a large enough Jewish Community in your area to have Kosher foods?

I've seen kosher food in almost every store i go to.

I admit though, i don't know about meat. I never looked for kosher meat simply because i don't keep kosher.

Is kosher meat hard to find?

I've only seen one halal store in my lifetime.kosher foods are not hard to find in the US - but kosher meat and cheese are -- unless one lives in or near a fairly large Jewish community....

the issue for me with halal foods is 2fold:
1) shellfish is halal - thus ingredients are suspect
2) it is meat sacrificed to an idol, IMO

[HadassahSukkot]

There's not a large enough Jewish Community in your area to have Kosher foods?

I've seen kosher food in almost every store i go to.

I admit though, i don't know about meat. I never looked for kosher meat simply because i don't keep kosher.

Is kosher meat hard to find?

I've only seen one halal store in my lifetime.
Outside of the US it can be hard... Especially if you are living outside a reasonable distance from the Jewish Community -- especially for meats and cheeses.

Here, we have a list of what additives are not kosher in boxed or prepared foods (everything is done by number here if it is an additive rather than ingredient), and nothing has a Hescher that is purchased outside the Jewish Community - unless it is imported from Israel or from the USA - - like I saw Matzah the other day (which I can't have), and it had great heschers on them, all imported from Israel. We get some ketchup and other items like chocolate from the US in the international section of one supermarket and those items by Kraft and Hunts, M&Ms and Hersheys have heschers... all others do not.

Meat we have driven up to Frankfurt from our area (about an hour and a half depending on traffic - it can be more or less) to get meat. Cheese I haven't seen there, so we get cheese "outside".

There is however an overabundance of Halal meats and cheeses, but we do not purchase those for the reasons Henaynei mentioned above.
Back home where my immediate family lives in AL, most all the prepared gluten free items we purchase have heschers. You can find *some* Kosher meat in Mountain Brook at Publix that my dad can have, but not much (he has issues with corn and sulfites and salycylites in addition to celiac disease). Otherwise, you have to drive from our area to Atlanta to find kosher meat and cheeses and wines and other specialty products.... but there is an abundance of Kosher items in our area, as there is a large Jewish Community in and around Birmingham even as far south as we are. :)
Where my extended family lives though, Kosher items are a no go, and I'm not even sure where I'd have to go to get meat.

If/when I go to visit them next, I will stop through Atlanta to get meat and cheese before we stay.

[christinepro]

kosher foods are not hard to find in the US - but kosher meat and cheese are -- unless one lives in or near a fairly large Jewish community....

the issue for me with halal foods is 2fold:
1) shellfish is halal - thus ingredients are suspect
2) it is meat sacrificed to an idol, IMO

Conditions of Halal:

Foods that are not permitted include:

wine and other alcoholic drinks, or anything (including medicine) that contains alcohol,
blood, bloody meat or any product made with animal blood or blood products,
pork and all other pork products including fat,
meat not killed in accordance with strict halal conditions,
fish without fins or scales (such as shellfish).I know that there is funky stuff with the name Allah, but they are referring to the God of Ishmael, Isaac and Jacob. Plus the company that packages the meat is Maple Lodge. It is not a Muslim company.

http://www.ats.agr.gc.ca/brandingcanada/profile/profile_maplelodge_e.htm

[SingingElk]

"Blessed by a Muslim priest" You will not see me consuming a Halel product. Allah is not the same as G-d of the bible.

[christinepro]

"Blessed by a Muslim priest" You will not see me consuming a Halel product. Allah is not the same as G-d of the bible.
This company doesn't have a Muslim priest.

[SingingElk]

This is the quote from their site:

"Halal means an animal, which has to be healthy at the time of processing, is blessed and slaughtered in a ritual way by a Muslim, observing specific rules of humaneness and hygiene."

I am not eating it. Turned it dark so you can read it.

[Ivy]

That green font is fearful hard to read......what does it say?

[Henaynei]

Sunnis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni) consider all fish to be halal, while some Shias (http://www.answers.com/topic/shia-islam) consider some fish haraam. Within mostly the Hanafi School of thought, there is a strong position that shellfish (shrimp, lobster, crab, clams, etc.) are prohibited, although there is no mention of it being prohibited in Hadith (http://www.answers.com/topic/hadith) and Quran. (http://www.answers.com/topic/qur-an)

http://www.answers.com/topic/halal?cat=health

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni)

[HadassahSukkot]

I have several Muslim co-classmates, and sometimes what I eat/don't eat comes up, as I had mentioned I eat no pork products.. it's interesting to hear what is acceptable and not acceptable to some.. it's mind boggling -- which is why there are so many different Halal meat markets here in Hessen. If there were not, there'd be arguments all the time about what was/wasn't in stock (fish and otherwise)..

It's not quite the same as Kosher. Some parts of the meat we don't eat, they do... and blessing in the name of Allah - definitely not our G-d....sorry if that offends - it isn't meant to. I know enough about Islam to know that.

[Steve Petersen]

I thought the EU was/is outlawing kosher slaughter?

[HadassahSukkot]

not from what I have heard. In our area however, the meat comes from France. (Chicken, Beef, Veal, Turkey, Lamb) Which explains somewhat why it is so much more expensive (like twice what I am used to as far as Kosher meat).

I haven't checked out more than one Kosher butcher in my area though, so I dunno if we're getting imports on everything or if that is just the one.

I haven't heard anything as far as laws outlawing Kosher slaughter here in the EU, but with as large as the communities are in France and here in Germany, I can't see that one flying.
One of my class mates who eats Halal said her husband does the slaughtering (I dunno how they manage it but I didn't really ask), they don't trust the places here in Germany as each group has a different rule and reckoning of what is and isn't truly Halal.

[Colabomb]

[quote=Steve Petersen;42471949]

I think, admittedly from my uneducated opinion, that that would create too much controversy to happen.

[SingingElk]

Because of it being blessed in the name of Allah, I would eat a non-kosher product before I eat a halel product.

Also in my previous post, I changed the green font to black to make it more legible.

[Colabomb]

Because of it being blessed in the name of Allah, I would eat a non-kosher product before I eat a halel product.



Under Jewish Theology, aren't they really the same thing?

I as a gentile, would reject Halal, not because it would be a sin for me to eat it, but because I would choose to protest it for my own reasons.

[SingingElk]

Allah is a sun god, not our G-d. If you study the history of Allah, some scholars trace his origins to Molech and Baal. He even had a mate, Alyah, a moon goddess.

Even if you ignore the historic roots of Allah, his description alone in the Quran, does not fit the real G-d.

[Colabomb]

Allah is a sun god, not our G-d. If you study the history of Allah, some scholars trace his origins to Molech and Baal. He even had a mate, Alyah, a moon goddess.

Even if you ignore the historic roots of Allah, his description alone in the Quran, does not fit the real G-d.

I know allah is not God. I didn't say that.

All I said is halal is just another form of non kosher.

[SingingElk]

Colobomb, Sorry for the misunderstanding. Halel is a few shades worse than Pork, Shrimp and Oysters.

[christinepro]

Allah is a sun god, not our G-d. If you study the history of Allah, some scholars trace his origins to Molech and Baal. He even had a mate, Alyah, a moon goddess.

Even if you ignore the historic roots of Allah, his description alone in the Quran, does not fit the real G-d. I heard that Allah is the moon G-d, Molech is the owl G-d on the American dollar, the one that the Illuminoti does mock child sacrifices to. Baal is any false G-d. We probably shouldn't utter those names though.

[christinepro]

Allah is a sun god, not our G-d. If you study the history of Allah, some scholars trace his origins to Molech and Baal. He even had a mate, Alyah, a moon goddess.

Even if you ignore the historic roots of Allah, his description alone in the Quran, does not fit the real G-d.
Muslims don't even know who Allah is. They think that he is the G-d of Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac and Jacob. They just call him Allah because I don't know but apparently it used to be El. All we are saying, is give peace a chance!!!:prayer:

[Henaynei]

All we are saying, is give peace a chance!!!:prayer:at what price, at what point will one consider the price too dear?

[SingingElk]

Peace is not worth eating food blessed on the behalf of a fake god.

[Gwenyfur]

I keep Kosher diet and laws...

While many will interpret this passage from Acts 11 as meaning food:
5I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:

6Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
7And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
8But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
9But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
10And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.
11And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.
12And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
13And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?


If you follow the entire passage you'll not that the "unclean" wasn't all manner of food, but all manner of people.

[Vaneeza Malkah]

Sephardic Jews in Turkey eat hallal meat or eat vegetarian. There is no hecksher there, but many israeli products are avalable.

To quote an orthodox Jewish rabbi:

Islam is not a pagan religion; Jews and Muslims both worship the same One G-d. The difference lies in G-d's teachings: Jews believe that only the Torah is the ultimate Truth.

[A_Pioneer]

Amen!!

[Bananna]

Psalm 119
105 Your word is a lamp to my feet
and a light for my path.
130 The unfolding of your words gives light;
it gives understanding to the simple.
The light of God's precepts from Genesis to Revelation are only truly beneficial to us when we practise them and understand them by walking them out.

Why is eating such a big issue?

1 Corinthians 6:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=6&verse=13&version=31&context=verse)
"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
Philippians 3:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=3&verse=19&version=31&context=verse)
Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.

Disiplining what we eat is a majory spiritual issue.

It is not just about pork or no pork
It is not just about Jew or Gentile
It is about God's way vs. my way.

Now I may like corn, but corn does not like me - so I don't eat it often.

Pork does not agree with me and I avoid it religiously.

If another eats corn or pork I only have an issue if they bring it into my home and expect me to eat it.

Yes this is an issue in my home. Those who are free to eat pork don't remember when I'm ill that I can't have that pork full pizza they just ordered for all of us to eat.

This is why Paul asks us to look to the needs of the weeker brother. If you freedom makes you thoughtless, then your freedom is destructive to the community.

When I was on bed rest last pregnancy I kept loosing weight because what they brought me would make my blood pressures go up if I ate it.

Likewise in a Jewish community or when Jews are present, how will we meet their needs if each brings what is best for their own belly and celebrates while a brother goes hungry?

Many are not the least concerned with being grafted into the vine. I'm concerned that if there is even one Jew among us that we not cause them to stumble and incur curses. Not by example and not by putting temptation before them.

That's just me.
bananna

[Henaynei]

Sephardic Jews in Turkey eat hallal meat or eat vegetarian. There is no hecksher there, but many Israeli products are available.

To quote an orthodox Jewish rabbi:Islam is not a pagan religion; Jews and Muslims both worship the same One G-d. The difference lies in G-d's teachings: Jews believe that only the Torah is the ultimate Truth. I know that is what some rabbis say - but I can not find any support for that in scripture - in fact scripture seems to disagree --- I do find historical reasons why rabbis came to teach this, several hundreds of years ago ...

[Vaneeza Malkah]

I know that is what some rabbis say - but I can not find any support for that in scripture - in fact scripture seems to disagree --- I do find historical reasons why rabbis came to teach this, several hundreds of years ago ...
Allah (pronounced allaha) was a name used in arabic for Eloha by Jews, in the diaspora, over two thousand years ago. There is historical proof of this recorded in tablets. Aside from that, I believe the jewish people are weary to write-off billions of people's faith who worship one G-d. In scriptures we find that Hashem's promise to Avraham, applied to his son Ishamel as well. It may appear that the Rabbis just accepted the belief that Muslims worship the same G-d to appease the Muslims, however the Jewish people have Never accepted the trinity view as valid to appease the Christians. In fact, while it is forbidden for a Jew to enter a church, it is permissible for a Jew to enter a mosque. Not only that, but during times of persecution by Christians, the Muslims took the Jewish people in as refugees. Jewish History teaches that the Jewish people were persecuted by both Muslims and Christians, however much more from the latter. We lose sight of this because of the current conflicts in Israel and the world, but History doesn't lie.

[debi b]

The light of God's precepts from Genesis to Revelation are only truly beneficial to us when we practise them and understand them by walking them out.

Why is eating such a big issue?



Disiplining what we eat is a majory spiritual issue.

It is not just about pork or no pork
It is not just about Jew or Gentile
It is about God's way vs. my way.

Now I may like corn, but corn does not like me - so I don't eat it often.

Pork does not agree with me and I avoid it religiously.

If another eats corn or pork I only have an issue if they bring it into my home and expect me to eat it.

Yes this is an issue in my home. Those who are free to eat pork don't remember when I'm ill that I can't have that pork full pizza they just ordered for all of us to eat.

This is why Paul asks us to look to the needs of the weeker brother. If you freedom makes you thoughtless, then your freedom is destructive to the community.

When I was on bed rest last pregnancy I kept loosing weight because what they brought me would make my blood pressures go up if I ate it.

Likewise in a Jewish community or when Jews are present, how will we meet their needs if each brings what is best for their own belly and celebrates while a brother goes hungry?

Many are not the least concerned with being grafted into the vine. I'm concerned that if there is even one Jew among us that we not cause them to stumble and incur curses. Not by example and not by putting temptation before them.

That's just me.
bananna

Pretty sure I couldn't have said that better :thumbsup:

[Skeeterbug]

I believe G-d set up diatery laws for our benefit. come on some of the animals gentiles eat like pork, catfish for example are scavengers and will eat dead rotten flesh. I find what is so ridicilous that Christians will eat ham on Easter they are celebrating the reserection. But Yeshua never ate pork he considered it unclean.

[Colabomb]

I believe G-d set up diatery laws for our benefit. come on some of the animals gentiles eat like pork, catfish for example are scavengers and will eat dead rotten flesh. I find what is so ridicilous that Christians will eat ham on Easter they are celebrating the reserection. But Yeshua never ate pork he considered it unclean.

It is true that He never ate foods forbidden in the Jewish Law, he was a Jew after all.

However, note what he says in the Gospel of Mark.


18And He said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him,
19because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared (R (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=7&version=49#cen-NASB-24483R))all foods (S (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=7&version=49#cen-NASB-24483S))clean.)

[Henaynei]

Yeshua did not call all foods clean - man did and added that parenthetical statement)

If the G-d who gave commandment about clean and unclean foods for and to the Jewish people changed his mind in Mark and declared all foods clean, why then did Shaul, some 20+ years later (after spending many years alone with G-d in private tutorage), why did he continue to eat kosher throughout his entire life?? Why did Peter also continue to eat kosher? Why didn't they have a ham sandwich?

[Steve Petersen]

It is true that He never ate foods forbidden in the Jewish Law, he was a Jew after all.

However, note what he says in the Gospel of Mark.


18And He said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him,
19because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared (R (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=7&version=49#cen-NASB-24483R))all foods (S (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=7&version=49#cen-NASB-24483S))clean.)

http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Mark7.19ShortNote.pdf

[Lebesgue]

I believe G-d set up diatery laws for our benefit. come on some of the animals gentiles eat like pork, catfish for example are scavengers and will eat dead rotten flesh. I find what is so ridicilous that Christians will eat ham on Easter they are celebrating the reserection. But Yeshua never ate pork he considered it unclean.

Not to mention that pigs eat feces. Eeeeeewwwww! Just the thought of eating pork grosses me out.

In the village in North Sumatra, Indonesia where my wife is originally from, most of the people are Lutherans and eat pork. They let the pigs they raise run free range and I have actually seen pigs there eat poop!

G-d said DON'T eat it though and that is reason enough for me.

And don't even get me started on shrimp and lobster which is just like eating cockroaches!

There is a GOOD REASON G-d does not want us to eat these things. He LOVES us and is NOT out to spoil our fun. The foods which Torah lists as forbidden are unhealthful and if you really think about it, gross and disgusting as well.

And remember although Messiah Y'shua made ALL foods clean, He did NOT consider pork food.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

[Colabomb]

Not to mention that pigs eat feces. Eeeeeewwwww! Just the thought of eating pork grosses me out.

In the village in North Sumatra, Indonesia where my wife is originally from, most of the people are Lutherans and eat pork. They let the pigs they raise run free range and I have actually seen pigs there eat poop!

G-d said DON'T eat it though and that is reason enough for me.

And don't even get me started on shrimp and lobster which is just like eating cockroaches!

There is a GOOD REASON G-d does not want us to eat these things. He LOVES us and is NOT out to spoil our fun. The foods which Torah lists as forbidden are unhealthful and if you really think about it, gross and disgusting as well.

And remember although Messiah Y'shua made ALL foods clean, He did NOT consider pork food.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

Ah, so.... the Gospel made a big deal about Jesus proclaiming something clean, that was already clean.....

[Lebesgue]

Ah, so.... the Gospel made a big deal about Jesus proclaiming something clean, that was already clean.....

Dude, pork is NOT, WAS NOT and NEVER WILL BE food.

It's DISGUSTING.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

[Colabomb]

Dude, pork is NOT, WAS NOT and NEVER WILL BE food.

It's DISGUSTING.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

I respect your right to disagree with me. But you do realize that is simply your opinion? I and many others, happen to like pork.

No one is shoving it down your throat. I am simply arguing that I, as a gentile, have the right to eat said meat. Whether or not you choose to do so is completely between you and God.

Really, there is no need for this discussion to get so heated.

[Lebesgue]

I respect your right to disagree with me. But you do realize that is simply your opinion? I and many others, happen to like pork.

No one is shoving it down your throat. I am simply arguing that I, as a gentile, have the right to eat said meat. Whether or not you choose to do so is completely between you and God.

Really, there is no need for this discussion to get so heated.

Ok if you want to eat pork go ahead. I won't judge you for it.

But I think I'll stay away from it.

My 16 year old son wants to eat it(partly as rebellion) and he knows how much my wfie and I both are against it. I suppose I should count my blessings at least it's only pork and not drugs or alcohol.

[visionary]

I showed the Pepsi vs Pork Utube video to my little girl and that was the end of her desire for pork...

[Lulav]

I had a question for all you messianics. Which of you believe in just eating kosher food? Which of you believe it was all made clean by YAHSHUA's blood? Just seeing this now and haven't read the thread.

I only eat Kosher food. And mainly organic because I believe that is fitter to eat than other kind.

What is all?

Food in the Bible means as far as animals, those that G-d said are clean, other animals are not food for us.

The passage that this erroneous teaching is based on was added to the gospel.

[Lulav]

We only have Halal meat here. I wonder what the cashier thinks of me when I buy it!Why would they think anything?

We don't have a very large Jewish community here. We have Kosher food but not meat. It's not hard to find in Toronto. That is a three hour drive. The Halal meat is the same.Halal meat is not the same, at least not in G-d's or Yeshua's eyes.

Rev 2 :14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

And another church had a seducer in there teaching the same thing:

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.



kosher foods are not hard to find in the US - but kosher meat and cheese are -- unless one lives in or near a fairly large Jewish community....

the issue for me with halal foods is 2fold:
1) shellfish is halal - thus ingredients are suspect
2) it is meat sacrificed to an idol, IMO:thumbsup:

Conditions of Halal:

Foods that are not permitted include:
wine and other alcoholic drinks, or anything (including medicine) that contains alcohol,
blood, bloody meat or any product made with animal blood or blood products,
pork and all other pork products including fat,
meat not killed in accordance with strict halal conditions,
fish without fins or scales (such as shellfish).I know that there is funky stuff with the name Allah, but they are referring to the God of Ishmael, Isaac and Jacob. Plus the company that packages the meat is Maple Lodge. It is not a Muslim company.

http://www.ats.agr.gc.ca/brandingcanada/profile/profile_maplelodge_e.htm
If you know , then why do you eat it? It's the halal conditions that is the big difference.

"Blessed by a Muslim priest" You will not see me consuming a Halel product. Allah is not the same as G-d of the bible.Exactly!

This company doesn't have a Muslim priest.All slaughter must be supervised, and I understand it is not a blessing per se, but when the throat is cut right before the animals blood is dedicated to the Muslim god.

This is the quote from their site:

"Halal means an animal, which has to be healthy at the time of processing, is blessed and slaughtered in a ritual way by a Muslim, observing specific rules of humaneness and hygiene."

I am not eating it. Turned it dark so you can read it.Yes, and healthy does not met Kosher requirements. Animals are checked for many things to be certified kosher, if they don't meet the standards G-d set forth the meat is then sold to the gentile market.

Allah is a sun god, not our G-d. If you study the history of Allah, some scholars trace his origins to Molech and Baal. He even had a mate, Alyah, a moon goddess.

Even if you ignore the historic roots of Allah, his description alone in the Quran, does not fit the real G-d.I've always thought it was the moon god that Muhhamud picked from their pantheon of gods to be 'the ' god?

I know allah is not God. I didn't say that.

All I said is halal is just another form of non kosher.Another form maybe, but one that is a known form that is spoken against in the NT.

Peace is not worth eating food blessed on the behalf of a fake god.Only true Shalom comes from following what G-d said.

Sephardic Jews in Turkey eat hallal meat or eat vegetarian. There is no hecksher there, but many israeli products are avalable.

To quote an orthodox Jewish rabbiQuote:
Islam is not a pagan religion; Jews and Muslims both worship the same One G-d. The difference lies in G-d's teachings: Jews believe that only the Torah is the ultimate Truth. But what were the time and place this was said?Circumstances are everything when one reads a quote, we need context. If this man really believed it I would ask, then why does your G-d tell these Muslims to kill you? Does that sound like your G-d and his promises to you and your forefathers?......................No.

It is true that He never ate foods forbidden in the Jewish Law, he was a Jew after all.

However, note what he says in the Gospel of Mark.


18And He said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him,
19because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared (R (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=7&version=49#cen-NASB-24483R))all foods (S (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=7&version=49#cen-NASB-24483S))clean.)

So you think because Yeshua is Jewish that is why he followed the law? Not every Jew does. He followed it because he created it, and he didn't come and change something that was holy in the first place. Really to change it so that we were allowed to eat something not good for us, that alone would say he wasn't G-d come in the flesh to save us, not at all.



I respect your right to disagree with me. But you do realize that is simply your opinion? I and many others, happen to like pork.

No one is shoving it down your throat. I am simply arguing that I, as a gentile, have the right to eat said meat. Whether or not you choose to do so is completely between you and God.

Really, there is no need for this discussion to get so heated. If this is only an opinion, it is also that of the creator of the universe Himself, so who do you want to side with in this argument? :)

[Colabomb]

If this is only an opinion, it is also that of the creator of the universe Himself, so who do you want to side with in this argument? :)


he gave a specific command to a specific people. I am not a Jew, therefore i receive neither the burden nor the blessing of the law.

[visionary]

For me its easy. Gentiles were never given the Law.

Whether or not Jews follow the Law is between them and God. Many Gentiles were made righteous in the Old Testament without the Law, and even more were made righteous in the new.

He made a covenant with one nation that included several conditions. We as Gentiles were outside that covenant, meaning we receive neither the Difficulties Law Nor the Blessing that Comes through adhering to it.

When Gentiles were given Salvation through Christ, it was just that, Salvation through Christ. We were not given a mandate to emulate the heritage of Israel.
What were you saved from and what were you saved to?

There are those in the light that see.
There are those in the darkness who cannot see
There are those in the light that are blind.
There are those in the darkness that see light and are drawn to it.

God gave the light to Israel. Yeshua was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. Yeshua is the blessing of Israel.

If I choose to walk in his light it is only because God gave me the sight to do so.

Very least requirement of Light starts with the prohibition against immorality and blood, and strangled meats and turning away from Idolitry, theft ...

To say there is no requirement is to reject scripture in my opinion it is to refuse to walk in the light of Yeshua who bought us with his blood to bring us out of lawlessness.

Without Torah there is no sin and one cannot sin. If God's laws were in no way binding on all nations, then there was no need for them to be saved.

That is just my opinion.
bananna

:wave:

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints, who keep the commandments of Elohim, and the faith of Yeshua

Perhaps it is worth thinking about....

I was just going to post that and ask, do you consider yourself a saint, ( as G-d defines it there in that passage of Revelation) ?

:)

I do follow the commandments he has given me. But as the Law was a covenant between Himself and the Hebrews, he has not given me the commandments we are speaking of.

I do have commandments. I am to Love the Lord my God with all my Heart all My soul and with All my mind, I am to love my neighbor as myself. I am to obstain from sexual immorality, I am to pray for and love my enemy, I am to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I do follow His commandments, the commandments he has given to me as a Gentile believer.

If the law, were to be universal, The Jews would not have a special covenant with God. He has not given the law to all men.

You have both the Blessing and the Burden of the Law, we have neither. Rejoice in your relationship with God, I will rejoice in mine.

I do follow the commandments he has given me. But as the Law was a covenant between Himself and the Hebrews, he has not given me the commandments we are speaking of.

I do have commandments. I am to Love the Lord my God with all my Heart all My soul and with All my mind, I am to love my neighbor as myself.




To be precise, the Laws you just quoted WERE GIVEN TO ISRAEL. Why are you doing them?

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.


Hebrew 10:7 puts these words in the mouth of Messiah:

Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

If these words truly express the intent of Messiah, it should be noted that Hebrews is quoting a passage in Psalms. Let me put the entire quote up:

Psa 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, 8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

So God's law is within the heart of Messiah. No 'burden' there. Messiah delights in God's Law.

To be precise, the Laws you just quoted WERE GIVEN TO ISRAEL. Why are you doing them?

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
I was gonna ask the same thing.:scratch:

I was gonna ask the same thing.:scratch:

You don't think God can give the same law to different people?

After all, murder is universally wrong.

You don't think God can give the same law to different people?

After all, murder is universally wrong.

Of course! He gave that Law to Noah. But you were the one who tried to make the distinction of Laws given to Israel vs. Laws given to Gentiles. Do you now wish to blur that line (as you claim we are doing?) Where precisely in Scripture did God give other laws to Gentiles than the ones to Noah?

Did you know that all 613 laws are just specifics to keep the two greatest laws?

We have no temple today though, yet many Christians do things that were given to the Levitical and Aaronic priesthood only to do, why is that?



The passage that this erroneous teaching is based on was added to the gospel.

Any evidence for such a claim other than the fact it disagrees with your threology?

Did you know that all 613 laws are just specifics to keep the two greatest laws?

We have no temple today though, yet many Christians do things that were given to the Levitical and Aaronic priesthood only to do, why is that?

Just because some choose to emulate, doesn't mean we must.

We do value the Old Testament, and we gather much from it (Liturgical churches such as my own Have a deep love for the psalms and pray/say/sing them daily.

However, that does not mean that the Law was given to Gentiles, it simply means that Gentiles honor what God has done for the Jewish People.

Any evidence for such a claim other than the fact it disagrees with your threology?It has nothing to do with disagreeing with my Theology, it has to do with not meshing with the rest of scripture, both Torah and what Yeshua taught.

If he were to teach as is being taught today, that everything was food for Jewish consumption, the priest and scribes would have raised a rukkas, of that you can be sure! But we see no evidence of that happening because he did not say it. It is purely a Christian interpretation, to keep from doing things 'Jewish'.
And an English Christian translation that perpetuates this 'error'.

If all things are clean, then why is there the guidelines for gentiles in Acts 15? what would be the necessity of it? If all is clean, why does Yeshua make a point from his last written down communication to speak against this, in Revelation 2? wouldn't this be going back on what he already had said and was brought to remembrance by the Holy Spirit and written down?

Besides not making a consistent case within the frame work of the bible itself, it doesn't even make logical sense. Take a moment to read this, (http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/pronounce_foods_clean.htm) it helps to explain using different translations.




It has nothing to do with disagreeing with my Theology, it has to do with not meshing with the rest of scripture, both Torah and what Yeshua taught.

If he were to teach as is being taught today, that everything was food for Jewish consumption, the priest and scribes would have raised a rukkas, of that you can be sure! But we see no evidence of that happening because he did not say it. It is purely a Christian interpretation, to keep from doing things 'Jewish'.
And an English Christian translation that perpetuates this 'error'.

If all things are clean, then why is there the guidelines for gentiles in Acts 15? what would be the necessity of it? If all is clean, why does Yeshua make a point from his last written down communication to speak against this, in Revelation 2? wouldn't this be going back on what he already had said and was brought to remembrance by the Holy Spirit and written down?

Besides not making a consistent case within the frame work of the bible itself, it doesn't even make logical sense. Take a moment to read this, (http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/pronounce_foods_clean.htm) it helps to explain using different translations.




jesus taught many things that did not "mesh" with the Old Covenant Law.

The Old Covenant allowed divorce as long as the husband gave his wife a piece of paper. Christ says that this was only a concession to men's hardened hearts. He says that divorce is unnacceptable save for sexual infidelity.

Are we to call this too an addition? A mistranslation? I admit that there is a certain level of complexity to the role of the Law in Christian life, but to say that thigns are exactly as they were is simply incorrect. We have been given a new revelation, that is often different than the Old one.

Hebrew 10:7 puts these words in the mouth of Messiah:

Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

If these words truly express the intent of Messiah, it should be noted that Hebrews is quoting a passage in Psalms. Let me put the entire quote up:

Psa 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, 8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

So God's law is within the heart of Messiah. No 'burden' there. Messiah delights in God's Law.

jesus taught many things that did not "mesh" with the Old Covenant Law.

The Old Covenant allowed divorce as long as the husband gave his wife a piece of paper. Christ says that this was only a concession to men's hardened hearts. He says that divorce is unnacceptable save for sexual infidelity.

Are we to call this too an addition? A mistranslation? I admit that there is a certain level of complexity to the role of the Law in Christian life, but to say that thigns are exactly as they were is simply incorrect. We have been given a new revelation, that is often different than the Old one. Yeshua taught nothing that goes against the Torah, not a thing. If he had, he could not be Messiah, he could not be the spotless lamb.

There is no law that says, 'Thou shalt not divorce'. There is a law against adultery, in fact it made it into the top 10. Yeshua upholds that. The laws of marriage are found in Deut 24. It only says if he gives her a get ( there was no such thing as paper then) then if she becomes another mans wife that if he in turn gives her a get or dies, that she should not be allowed to return to the first husband because she is defiled.

Yeshua did not change that, he just clarified that the way G-d sees it, it is only acceptable ( note, not unlawful) to divorce if adultery is involved.

How can you follow someone if you keep insisting you don't have to do what he's doing?

Isn't it better to do it out of love than inheritance? Why not take advantage of it, instead of using it as a "get out of following G-d's law free " card?

:confused:

I do have to ask.

Will a messianic man be forced to marry his brother's widow? Do you still execute homosexuals and disobedient children? Must a raped woman marry her rapist?

If the law is still exactly as it was, we are all violators, every one of us. No one follows the Jewish Law as it was.

Yes, it is all about love and obedience to the one who loves us because he created us and knows best for us. We are foolish if we do not follow him. :)

Yes, it is all about love and obedience to the one who loves us because he created us and knows best for us. We are foolish if we do not follow him. :)

so, if my brother dies before me, i am to take his wife?

If someone rapes my daughter i shall force her to marry him?

so, if my brother dies before me, i am to take his wife?

If someone rapes my daughter i shall force her to marry him?There are some laws that pertain to keeping the purity of the Israelite nation, since you do not qualify then it does not pertain to you, just like laws regarding the Levites only pertain to Levites.

You need to know what laws pertain to who, and where as well as when. Also some words used in the text have a different meaning today then they did when recorded.

There are some laws that pertain to keeping the purity of the Israelite nation, since you do not qualify then it does not pertain to you, just like laws regarding the Levites only pertain to Levites.

You need to know what laws pertain to who, and where as well as when. Also some words used in the text have a different meaning today then they did when recorded.

Isn't that what i've been saying all along?

....?

No. You have been saying because you are a gentile you don't have to keep the Torah. What I am saying is if you consider yourself part of Israel, and grafted into her, then the laws that pertain to you, you should follow.

Now this whole thread was about food, and what is and isn't food according to G-d. I have to ask, why are you arguing against having to keep these laws so vehemently?

I am sure you have heard that the Torah laws are broken down into 613, and of that there are positive ones and negative ones. And in those two categories there are also broken down into more.

There are 18 categories of positive ones and 13 categories of negative ones. Here they are in case anyones interested:

Positive:

Relationship to G-d -- All
Torah-All
Temple and Priests
Sacrifices
Vows -----------Some
Ritual Purity-----------some
Donations to Temple -mostly for the land but can voluntarily do some where you live
Sabbatical Year
Animals for consumption --------some
Festivals---------------Some
Community-----------Some
Idolatry-------some
War-------X
Social----------All
Family---------Some
Judicial----------some may conflict with local laws
Slaves-not practiced today
Torts ---------some may conflict with local laws

I have highlighted in red those categories you absolutely can't keep because of the bloodline or because they are related to the land and or Temple.

The Negative ones

Blasphemy -------------All
Temple --------X
Idolotry and Related practices---------most
Prohibitions resulting from historic events----some
Sacrifices---------some
Priest--------------N/A
Dietary Laws-----------All
Nazarite --------all
Agriculture--for the land but can voluntarily be practiced where you live
Loans, business, treatment of slaves -- most
Justice (mostly for Judges) but can be done today
Monarchy--- only applicable when there's a king in the land


Just curious..........

There are 30 Dietary laws, do you not obey any of them, or only the ones you don't want to?

No. You have been saying because you are a gentile you don't have to keep the Torah. What I am saying is if you consider yourself part of Israel, and grafted into her, then the laws that pertain to you, you should follow.

Now this whole thread was about food, and what is and isn't food according to G-d. I have to ask, why are you arguing against having to keep these laws so vehemently?

I am sure you have heard that the Torah laws are broken down into 613, and of that there are positive ones and negative ones. And in those two categories there are also broken down into more.

There are 18 categories of positive ones and 13 categories of negative ones. Here they are in case anyones interested:

Positive:

Relationship to G-d -- All
Torah-All
Temple and Priests
Sacrifices
Vows -----------Some
Ritual Purity-----------some
Donations to Temple -mostly for the land but can voluntarily do some where you live
Sabbatical Year
Animals for consumption --------some
Festivals---------------Some
Community-----------Some
Idolatry-------some
War-------X
Social----------All
Family---------Some
Judicial----------some may conflict with local laws
Slaves-not practiced today
Torts ---------some may conflict with local laws

I have highlighted in red those categories you absolutely can't keep because of the bloodline or because they are related to the land and or Temple.

The Negative ones

Blasphemy -------------All
Temple --------X
Idolotry and Related practices---------most
Prohibitions resulting from historic events----some
Sacrifices---------some
Priest--------------N/A
Dietary Laws-----------All
Nazarite --------all
Agriculture--for the land but can voluntarily be practiced where you live
Loans, business, treatment of slaves -- most
Justice (mostly for Judges) but can be done today
Monarchy--- only applicable when there's a king in the land


Just curious..........

There are 30 Dietary laws, do you not obey any of them, or only the ones you don't want to?

Good point, Lulav.

I know as I consider myself grafted into Israel that yes, I should keep Torah. And don't see it as a burden at all, but a BLESSING.

The food laws in Torah are there because G-d loves us.
The foods that are forbidden are not good for us and as I have stated above, those foods are gross and disgusting anyway.

I agree with you 100%.

G-d Bless.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

No. You have been saying because you are a gentile you don't have to keep the Torah. What I am saying is if you consider yourself part of Israel, and grafted into her, then the laws that pertain to you, you should follow.

Now this whole thread was about food, and what is and isn't food according to G-d. I have to ask, why are you arguing against having to keep these laws so vehemently?

I am sure you have heard that the Torah laws are broken down into 613, and of that there are positive ones and negative ones. And in those two categories there are also broken down into more.

There are 18 categories of positive ones and 13 categories of negative ones. Here they are in case anyones interested:

Positive:

Relationship to G-d -- All
Torah-All
Temple and Priests
Sacrifices
Vows -----------Some
Ritual Purity-----------some
Donations to Temple -mostly for the land but can voluntarily do some where you live
Sabbatical Year
Animals for consumption --------some
Festivals---------------Some
Community-----------Some
Idolatry-------some
War-------X
Social----------All
Family---------Some
Judicial----------some may conflict with local laws
Slaves-not practiced today
Torts ---------some may conflict with local laws

I have highlighted in red those categories you absolutely can't keep because of the bloodline or because they are related to the land and or Temple.

The Negative ones

Blasphemy -------------All
Temple --------X
Idolotry and Related practices---------most
Prohibitions resulting from historic events----some
Sacrifices---------some
Priest--------------N/A
Dietary Laws-----------All
Nazarite --------all
Agriculture--for the land but can voluntarily be practiced where you live
Loans, business, treatment of slaves -- most
Justice (mostly for Judges) but can be done today
Monarchy--- only applicable when there's a king in the land


Just curious..........

There are 30 Dietary laws, do you not obey any of them, or only the ones you don't want to?

So, its up to you to decide what parts of the law apply and what dont?

Im still waiting to hear if you are willing to marry your virgin daughter off to her rapist or stone a homosexual.

You criticize me a non Jew, for not obeying the dietary laws given to your ancestors, but you a Jew, do not obey the law either. You choose the parts of the Law that are convenient to you. The dietary laws, the clothing laws etc. But I do not see Israel, the people or the secular nation, carrying out the Law. When was the last time Israel consecrated Judges, or a King? When was the last time it stoned an adulterer? When was the last time Israel punished a man for not providing children to his brother's widow?

Israel the nation, does not act like Israel of the Scriptures. Perhaps, The Jewish people should start obeying the law, before passing judgement on Gentiles, who were never given the law in the first place.

I do not believe it a sin to eat the meat of "unclean" animals because all has been made clean. But if you are correct and it is a sin for me to do so, you also have quite a bit of law breaking in your own closet.

So, its up to you to decide what parts of the law apply and what dont?

Im still waiting to hear if you are willing to marry your virgin daughter off to her rapist or stone a homosexual.

You criticize me a non Jew, for not obeying the dietary laws given to your ancestors, but you a Jew, do not obey the law either. You choose the parts of the Law that are convenient to you. The dietary laws, the clothing laws etc. But I do not see Israel, the people or the secular nation, carrying out the Law. When was the last time Israel consecrated Judges, or a King? When was the last time it stoned an adulterer? When was the last time Israel punished a man for not providing children to his brother's widow?

Israel the nation, does not act like Israel of the Scriptures. Perhaps, The Jewish people should start obeying the law, before passing judgement on Gentiles, who were never given the law in the first place.

I do not believe it a sin to eat the meat of "unclean" animals because all has been made clean. But if you are correct and it is a sin for me to do so, you also have quite a bit of law breaking in your own closet.

Dude, if you want to eat pork, I'm not going to judge you and bon appetit!

But it IS unhealthful and IMHO gross and disgusting.

There is a good reason WHY G-d forbids it.

But...whatever floats your boat.

G-d Bless.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

Its not about pork for me honestly. Im not even that bothered.

It seems however that some take my theology to be some sort of personal attack. I don't get it.

We can disagre respectfully no?

Im simply tired of it being implied that i am somehow less faithful because i do not follow a set of rules that have never been applicable to me in the first place. It is the attitude of "Im better than you" that annoys me.

Its not about pork for me honestly. Im not even that bothered.

It seems however that some take my theology to be some sort of personal attack. I don't get it.

We can disagre respectfully no?

Im simply tired of it being implied that i am somehow less faithful because i do not follow a set of rules that have never been applicable to me in the first place. It is the attitude of "Im better than you" that annoys me.

I am willing to agree to disagree respectfully with you and I do not feel I am better than anyone.

G-d Bless.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

This is probably one of these issues that God will have to reveal to you... What seems like condemnation from us, isn't. Like it was said, that is between you and the Lord. The law is spiritual and until the Holy Spirit convicts you, no sweat... God will wink. But when the Lord leads you to read about it, discuss it on the forum, and feel the need to defend your position... then it becomes important to understand where there is controversy, there is the line in which God and the devil are arguing over your soul and you need to stand firmly on God's side. Even if your mouth and tastebuds want to argue.

This is probably one of these issues that God will have to reveal to you... What seems like condemnation from us, isn't. Like it was said, that is between you and the Lord. The law is spiritual and until the Holy Spirit convicts you, no sweat... God will wink. But when the Lord leads you to read about it, discuss it on the forum, and feel the need to defend your position... then it becomes important to understand where there is controversy, there is the line in which God and the devil are arguing over your soul and you need to stand firmly on God's side. Even if your mouth and tastebuds want to argue.

I feel no conviction on the matter. I was saved as a Gentile, I will continue as a Gentile.
You were saved as a Jew, continue as a Jew.

I also find the comment about "my taste buds" Highly insulting. Who are you to judge my heart and motivation? To imply that i am violating my conscience or the will of God because of my sense of taste takes a lot of pride.

This is probably one of these issues that God will have to reveal to you... What seems like condemnation from us, isn't. Like it was said, that is between you and the Lord. The law is spiritual and until the Holy Spirit convicts you, no sweat... God will wink. But when the Lord leads you to read about it, discuss it on the forum, and feel the need to defend your position... then it becomes important to understand where there is controversy, there is the line in which God and the devil are arguing over your soul and you need to stand firmly on God's side. Even if your mouth and tastebuds want to argue.

I feel no conviction on the matter. I was saved as a Gentile, I will continue as a Gentile.
You were saved as a Jew, continue as a Jew.

I also find the comment about "my taste buds" Highly insulting. Who are you to judge my heart and motivation? To imply that i am violating my conscience or the will of God because of my sense of taste takes a lot of pride.

Lastly, when you starts stoning homosexuals, adulterers and rebellious children, when you start obeying all the law, not just parts of it, we can start talking about torah observance in the Church. But as it stands, no one living is truly torah observant.

So, its up to you to decide what parts of the law apply and what dont?

Im still waiting to hear if you are willing to marry your virgin daughter off to her rapist or stone a homosexual.

You criticize me a non Jew, for not obeying the dietary laws given to your ancestors, but you a Jew, do not obey the law either. You choose the parts of the Law that are convenient to you. The dietary laws, the clothing laws etc. But I do not see Israel, the people or the secular nation, carrying out the Law. When was the last time Israel consecrated Judges, or a King? When was the last time it stoned an adulterer? When was the last time Israel punished a man for not providing children to his brother's widow?

Israel the nation, does not act like Israel of the Scriptures. Perhaps, The Jewish people should start obeying the law, before passing judgement on Gentiles, who were never given the law in the first place.

I do not believe it a sin to eat the meat of "unclean" animals because all has been made clean. But if you are correct and it is a sin for me to do so, you also have quite a bit of law breaking in your own closet.


Actually I would really like to see an answer to this (which has gone unanswered) I have read a number of threads here and at other boards about the need for Gentile believers to follow the dietary law. But if we are to follow the dietary law shouldn't we follow all of the law which would include stoning disobedient children, homosexuals, adulterers etc.




I feel no conviction on the matter. I was saved as a Gentile, I will continue as a Gentile.
You were saved as a Jew, continue as a Jew.

I also find the comment about "my taste buds" Highly insulting. Who are you to judge my heart and motivation? To imply that i am violating my conscience or the will of God because of my sense of taste takes a lot of pride.

Lastly, when you starts stoning homosexuals, adulterers and rebellious children, when you start obeying all the law, not just parts of it, we can start talking about torah observance in the Church. But as it stands, no one living is truly torah observant.First.. judgement has been moved up to the court in heaven... we are not to pass judgement but are to understand that God will...That is why we can look at scripture and see in revelation the judgements he has reserved for the sinner.

Second, I am not a jew.

Third, you are still to be convicted by the Holy Spirit on the matter. I will repeat again, that this matter will rest with the Lord to settle. Without conviction, there is not repentence, nor is there conversion on any of the Lord's ways.

We all know it is scripturally true that the flesh is weak and makes all kinds of excuses as the why not to walk in a narrow path. God designed the narrow path, we are only to follow it. Never said it was easy.

First.. judgement has been moved up to the court in heaven... we are not to pass judgement but are to understand that God will...That is why we can look at scripture and see in revelation the judgements he has reserved for the sinner.

Second, I am not a jew.

Third, you are still to be convicted by the Holy Spirit on the matter. I will repeat again, that this matter will rest with the Lord to settle. Without conviction, there is not repentence, nor is there conversion on any of the Lord's ways.

We all know it is scripturally true that the flesh is weak and makes all kinds of excuses as the why not to walk in a narrow path. God designed the narrow path, we are only to follow it. Never said it was easy.


Then I assume you will commence stoning of homosexuals, adulterers and disobedient children?

I assume that if your virgin daughter is raped, she will be forced to marry her rapist?

Will your children (if you have them, i don't know) avoid contacting you during your period so as to avoid becoming unclean?

If you someday have two sons, one dies childless, you will force your other son to privide him children in his name?

And concerning conviction... There is no conviction where there is no sin. You assume i am not convicted because i have a hardened heart. I say i am not convicted because i am not sinning.

Then I assume you will commence stoning of homosexuals, adulterers and disobedient children?

I assume that if your virgin daughter is raped, she will be forced to marry her rapist?

Will your children (if you have them, i don't know) avoid contacting you during your period so as to avoid becoming unclean?

If you someday have two sons, one dies childless, you will force your other son to privide him children in his name?

And concerning conviction... There is no conviction where there is no sin. You assume i am not convicted because i have a hardened heart. I say i am not convicted because i am not sinning.

I won't judge you. This is between you and the L-rd.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

I won't judge you. This is between you and the L-rd.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

Brother I appreciate that attitude, i think it is the Christian attitude. However, many here do not seem to share it with you.

Then I assume you will commence stoning of homosexuals, adulterers and disobedient children?

I assume that if your virgin daughter is raped, she will be forced to marry her rapist?

Will your children (if you have them, i don't know) avoid contacting you during your period so as to avoid becoming unclean?

If you someday have two sons, one dies childless, you will force your other son to privide him children in his name?

And concerning conviction... There is no conviction where there is no sin. You assume i am not convicted because i have a hardened heart. I say i am not convicted because i am not sinning.Did you miss the part where Yeshua took the theolocacy to heaven where He will judge all these matters by these very laws you have pointed out?

Brother I appreciate that attitude, i think it is the Christian attitude. However, many here do not seem to share it with you.

I believe you will do what the L-rd convicts you to do.

The only thing that matters is that you accept Y'shua as Messiah and Saviour.

For myself, I desire to be Torah-observant because that's what I believe the L-rd has convicted me to do.

Food is NOT the key to heaven, though I stand on my belief that those things which G-d forbids in Torah for food are NOT healthy. But I do not think one would be condemned over what they eat or don't eat.
Just my 2 cents.

G-d Bless.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

I believe you will do what the L-rd convicts you to do.

The only thing that matters is that you accept Y'shua as Messiah and Saviour.

For myself, I desire to be Torah-observant because that's what I believe the L-rd has convicted me to do.

Food is NOT the key to heaven, though I stand on my belief that those things which G-d forbids in Torah for food are NOT healthy. But I do not think one would be condemned over what they eat or don't eat.
Just my 2 cents.

G-d Bless.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

i respect that opinion.

Did you miss the part where Yeshua took the theolocacy to heaven where He will judge all th