Non-Christian moderators

[Breetai]

Non-Christian moderators

Christian forums claims to be a Christian site. Therefore, GET RID OF ALL NON-CHRISTIAN MODS!!!

Yes, before all of the "changes" here, there were a lot of problems with the "power hungry" mods and whatnot. Well, this has not changed with allowing mods from any belief system. In fact, it has gotten worse. There are mods who would be considered non-Christian here have been editing posts/wikis, deleting posts they disagree with, etc. that would not be happening if there were only Christian mods here with the intention of evangelizing non-Christians. I've seen this first-hand, and am not the only one.

I am aware that this is a two-way street, but... this claims to be a CHRSTIAN site. The bias should be towards Christianity, and should NOT be fully liberal to all, politically correct to all, or whatever other phrase means the same.

Is this a Christian site or not? Don't go half-way and confusing everything, as is happening now with some non-Christian mods being able to control some areas but not others. Either make it a liberal "faith" forum, and change the name back to christianforums.com (the original reason it was changed to that is for the same reason that I'm ranting about in this thread, and in others), or turn it back into a Christian site!

[ravenscape]

Christian forums claims to be a Christian site. Therefore, GET RID OF ALL NON-CHRISTIAN MODS!!!

Yes, before all of the "changes" here, there were a lot of problems with the "power hungry" mods and whatnot. Well, this has not changed with allowing mods from any belief system. In fact, it has gotten worse. There are mods who would be considered non-Christian here have been editing posts/wikis, deleting posts they disagree with, etc. that would not be happening if there were only Christian mods here with the intention of evangelizing non-Christians. I've seen this first-hand, and am not the only one.

I am aware that this is a two-way street, but... this claims to be a CHRSTIAN site. The bias should be towards Christianity, and should NOT be fully liberal to all, politically correct to all, or whatever other phrase means the same.

Is this a Christian site or not? Don't go half-way and confusing everything, as is happening now with some non-Christian mods being able to control some areas but not others. Either make it a liberal "faith" forum, and change the name back to christianforums.com (the original reason it was changed to that is for the same reason that I'm ranting about in this thread, and in others), or turn it back into a Christian site!
Do you realize that there is no team on which there are enough non-Christian moderators to have any control over team consensus? Non-Christian moderators add their viewpoints to the mix, but hardly have the numbers or clout to control anything about this site.

[Breetai]

Absolutely wrong. Take a look at the LDS forums and the wonderful "job" of modding being done there.

[Paisley]

Are you saying non-Christians mods need power over the Christian areas, or are you saying non-Christian mods do not have a say over the non-Christian areas?

[ravenscape]

Are you talking about Non-Nicene mods? Or Non-Christian? AFAIK there are no non-Christian moderators in either the Ecumencial or the Theology teams.

[BlazeLight]

He's talking about non-Nicenes.

[OddBeani]

One of the hardest working staff on the entire site under a green A is non-Christian, and in that, it should have ABSOLUTELY no basis as to their acceptance by the site.

As a Christian site, it should be accepting of all, especially those who step up to the plate and take on roles in which they encourage and assist on a site which is dominated by the Christian faith.

[Angeldove97]

I think that the Non-Christian and Non-Nicene Staff we've had so far has done a great job--- I have no issue with them staying on Staff at all.

[Addicted2~Jesus]

One of the hardest working staff on the entire site under a green A is non-Christian, and in that, it should have ABSOLUTELY no basis as to their acceptance by the site.

As a Christian site, it should be accepting of all, especially those who step up to the plate and take on roles in which they encourage and assist on a site which is dominated by the Christian faith.

Yup... accept em all, gays, liberal, pro-abortion etc etc etc.... sure, that way we won't be called narrow minded er closed minded, bigots, etc for standin on God's word.... since this place is hardly a Christian site anymore anyways, what's the use... jes like that worthless banner wit no mention of Christ but a stupid slay an deer runnin cross the moon... yah.. you bet le's jes accept em all, git down an allow non-belivers etc to rule over believers....

[Glass*Soul]

May I suggest that if any moderators are behaving inappropriately that this be addressed regardless of their religious affiliation or lack thereof. If a non-Christianm or non-Nicene Christian moderator is doing a good job, I see no reason to object to their holding that post.

[Sylvanspirits]

this claims to be a CHRSTIAN site

Filled with followers of Chrst. :P

Seriously though, I have no objection to having non-Christian moderators, and would be greatly opposed to any effort to remove them from staff based solely on religious means.

[bubblefish]

May I suggest that if any moderators are behaving inappropriately that this be addressed regardless of their religious affiliation or lack thereof. If a non-Christianm or non-Nicene Christian moderator is doing a good job, I see no reason to object to their holding that post.
I agree, the non-Christian mods I have worked with and seen are wonderful. I see no reason why they should be removed just because of their faith.

If there were problems with their work, yes that should be reviewed but that is the same for any mod.

[OddBeani]

Yup... accept em all, gays, liberal, pro-abortion etc etc etc....

Exactly! :)

I don't see what the problem is from any perspective. If it's a Christian site then why not accept those who are different, and if it's not a Christian site, then there's no complaint at all?

Staff is fallible on any count. Be it the strongest Pentecostal or the most devout Atheist. Salvation does not negate who can carry out responsibilities.

Beyond that, the judge of who is a "Christian" considering this is merely a discussion board cannot go much beyond what little icon we display. Most people on this site don't know the people they see in the threads, not on a significant and personal level at least, and with that in mind, cannot adequately say who is a Christian and who is not. There are those that say they are Christians, but by many standards wouldn't come within a 10 foot pole. Others say they are agnostic yet show more love and acceptance than I see from some who can quote every word of Psalm 119...

We're all just people. Different people. Different walks of life and different beliefs. Is it a Christian site? That's for the members to create, etc., but disallowing anyone who doesn't belong to our little 'sect' to be actively involved in carrying out the duties here is not, in any light, a good example of what Christ would have actually done :wave:

[Wrigley]

Absolutely wrong. Take a look at the LDS forums and the wonderful "job" of modding being done there.

Non Christian mods on a Christian site makes little sense.

[Utah Knight]

I see no problem with mods of any sort non-christian or Christian just as long as they do there job. We should not judge anyone due to their religious beliefs. Remember Judge not less ye be judged. Do the non-christiain mods judge Christains or the Chrstain mods? I have no seen it so why should those of us that are Christain Judge them? I do not think so. Some of those who are non-Christain are more polite and considerate than those who are Christiain and i feel as if they are just as good as anyone else.

[PaladinGirl]

I see no problem with the non-Christian and non-Nicene mods as long as they are not allowed to rule over the Christian areas.

[flaglady]

I hate bigotry in any form. Where's the Christian love? The generosity of spirit? We have so few non-Nicene Christians mods (NOT non-Christians) on this site - hardly a dozen. Out of 192 staff!! I really can't see where they could possible be grabbing such power as is purported here. The demographics alone show it is just not possible.

[Letalis]

Non Christian mods on a Christian site makes little sense.
Some areas of the site are for specifically Christian-oriented discussion, for example, Theology or Ministry. Other areas, such as Support or the Fellowship section, are for more general discussion.

Given this, there are some restrictions as to who can moderate where. Non-Christian staff can't moderate in Theology, Congregation, Ministry, Edification, and Outreach. Other areas of the site (such as those I mentioned above: Support, Fellowship, Debate, etc), non-Christian staff are able to moderate. I should add they have been doing a wonderful job doing so.

[*Starlight*]

A person's religious beliefs, or lack of them, don't determine if they are a good mod or not. :)

[Redeemed_Warrior]

I'll oppose any motion to remove NC or Non-NCreed mods from staff.

I'm about as conservative as they get, yet this Christain power-grabbing is just pitiful and un-Christlike

[Angeldove97]

And even with our Christian Staff--- doesn't mean we're Christian 100%, sometimes we're even worse people than those who do not call themselves Christian. I know I have a few skeletons in my closet and yet people still enjoy having me on staff to help them out.

There are areas that I wouldn't put a non-Christian into position to moderate---but that's only a small area of all the forums we have here.

[Crazy Liz]

Absolutely wrong. Take a look at the LDS forums and the wonderful "job" of modding being done there.
Can you be more specific about what bothers you there?

[Glass*Soul]

Absolutely wrong. Take a look at the LDS forums and the wonderful "job" of modding being done there.

I've read over your OP a couple of times.

If the activities you're describing are taking place, it seems to me that the best course would be to approach the supervisors of the moderators in question, or perhaps the Reconcilliation Team, and describe exactly the behavior of the mods that you feel is inappropriate. Give them links to examples where you can. There really isn't a need to bring their religious affiliation into the discussion. They are either following protocol or they are not.

Does that seem like a reasonable plan?

[Bamboo_Chicken]

And even with our Christian Staff--- doesn't mean we're Christian 100%, sometimes we're even worse people than those who do not call themselves Christian. I know I have a few skeletons in my closet and yet people still enjoy having me on staff to help them out.
I agree with this totally. I have a past and I still fall every day...I understand the argument of ministry, but don't look to me as a good example even though I'm Christian. I'd probably be more worried about me somehow corrupting people on here than our non-Nicene mods. I have watched them do a wonderful job over the last few months and see no reason to remove them.

[Addicted2~Jesus]

Lambs to the slaughter..... I really cain't git that thought out of my head in regards to cf.. not jes this particular issue, but a multitude of issues here... flock bein led astray....

[chaoschristian]

Are you talking about Non-Nicene mods? Or Non-Christian? AFAIK there are no non-Christian moderators in either the Ecumencial or the Theology teams.

His subtext is that non-Nicene mods are non-Christian mods.

[Breetai]

I've read over your OP a couple of times.

If the activities you're describing are taking place, it seems to me that the best course would be to approach the supervisors of the moderators in question, or perhaps the Reconcilliation Team, and describe exactly the behavior of the mods that you feel is inappropriate. Give them links to examples where you can. There really isn't a need to bring their religious affiliation into the discussion. They are either following protocol or they are not.

Does that seem like a reasonable plan?In the process, and I'm far from the only one involved.

[flaglady]

As admin of one of the LDS forums, I'd be interested to know to which LDS forum you refer. Is it the Theology one or the Congregational one? If the latter, perhaps you would like to pm me with details of your concerns

[Auntie]

Lambs to the slaughter..... I really cain't git that thought out of my head in regards to cf.. not jes this particular issue, but a multitude of issues here... flock bein led astray....


Agreed. But it is so common nowadays. Thanks so much to you A2J, and your commitment to Christ and His teachings.

[Rep Daddy]

And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one'
Amen

Hmmm. Novel concept.

[Mary_Magdalene]

Lambs to the slaughter..... I really cain't git that thought out of my head in regards to cf.. not jes this particular issue, but a multitude of issues here... flock bein led astray....

agreed. :sigh:

[Rep Daddy]

I agree with this totally. I have a past and I still fall every day...I understand the argument of ministry, but don't look to me as a good example even though I'm Christian. I'd probably be more worried about me somehow corrupting people on here than our non-Nicene mods. I have watched them do a wonderful job over the last few months and see no reason to remove them.

Truth gets kicked to the curb.

post-modern-christianforums.com

[tattedschmoe]

Do you realize that there is no team on which there are enough non-Christian moderators to have any control over team consensus? Non-Christian moderators add their viewpoints to the mix, but hardly have the numbers or clout to control anything about this site.

this does not surprise me to be honest. i imagine like any other job. people that have things in common or like each other's views, like the other person period, they're/your gonna respect their view more, than say, someone who doesn't believe you as you do, or someone you don't like for whatever reason.

plus, i wonder if it is clash of modding styles...faith based modding versus secular based modding.

[BlazeLight]

I have not deconverted anyone.........nor do I wish to.:)

Just sayin'.

[ravenscape]

The topic of this thread is non-Christian/non-Nicene moderators. Please start another topic if you wish to discuss other issues.

[Crazy Liz]

Truth gets kicked to the curb.

post-modern-christianforums.com
Someone just linked me to this Calvinist blog entry about postmodernism. I thought you might like it.

http://www.masstheology.com/2008/01/05/what-is-postmodernity/

[Angel4Truth]

I agree 100 percent that non christians should not be mods on a christian board. When it was decided that there would be non christian mods - it was said then that no non nicene mods would ever be an administrator or senior staff as well - but obviously that isnt true.

If this is to be a ministry like the new owner stated that He considered it to be - then there is no place for non christians on staff.

[Crazy Liz]

I agree 100 percent that non christians should not be mods on a christian board. When it was decided that there would be non christian mods - it was said then that no non nicene mods would ever be an administrator or senior staff as well - but obviously that isnt true.

If this is to be a ministry like the new owner stated that He considered it to be - then there is no place for non christians on staff.
What kind of ministry is this forum?

I think that makes a huge difference in deciding who should be on staff.

This question is related to the question whether CF is a community or a business (http://christianforums.com/t6663496-cf-the-community-cf-the-business.html#post42130290), which is a topic of another thread.

I think if CF is a proprietorship (business) in which the ministry of hospitality is practiced for the benefit of those who would like to form a community here, we could probably more easily decide whether non-Christians can be moderators.

Imagine a church that meets in a coffeehouse or restaurant. Would the fact that Christians meet there for ministry mean the owner could not hire non-Christians to wait tables?

I don't know if this is the best analogy, but it's the one that makes the most sense to me.

[BlazeLight]

I agree with Liz.

[Rep Daddy]

Imagine a church that meets in a coffeehouse or restaurant. Would the fact that Christians meet there for ministry mean the owner could not hire non-Christians to wait tables?

I don't know if this is the best analogy, but it's the one that makes the most sense to me.


sigh

[Angel4Truth]

The topic of this thread is non christian moderators liz - i am on topic and no i dont expect that youll agree with anything i think about it.

Non christians have no place moderating on a christian board - this isnt a resturant and it should be being about believers edifying other believers and witnessing to the lost both things that non believers are not equipped to do or oversee or even comment on.

It shouldnt be about making the lost feel comfortable being lost and feel as if they are ok when they are not ok.

[Auntie]

I have to say, I have been treated kinder and with more mercy by non-Christian staff. Sorry, but that's the truth.

Just today, I got an email from a Christian mod about a post made way back in October of last year.:( WOW. My heart wondered about things like forgiveness, things like letting the past remain in the past.

[OddBeani]

then there is no place for non christians on staff.
Nope, certainly cannot have those lepers running around us in our little village.

No, wait, it was stated as non-Christians...my bad, I just started remembering something about lepers being cast out and Jesus being the only one to accept them when others shoved them away like they were unequal to the rest. It's so hard to keep things straight some time.

[Angel4Truth]

Please show me where Christ appointed a non believer to oversee the church.

[Teshi]

I have to say, I have been treated kinder and with more mercy by non-Christian staff. Sorry, but that's the truth.

Just today, I got an email from a Christian mod about a post made way back in October of last year.:( WOW. My heart wondered about things like forgiveness, things like letting the past remain in the past.

It's a bug.
http://christianforums.com/t6697905-old-forums-pms.html

On the subject of non-Nicene mods:
IMO, the purpose of moderating is to keep a civil place for discussion, not to promote one's own agenda. As long as non-Nicene mods are modding according to the rules and procedures in place, I don't see the problem. And if any moderator is going outside those rules and procedures, then they need to be curbed, Nicene-believing or not.

[OddBeani]

Please show me where Christ appointed a non believer to oversee the church.
Please show me the church. Lee is a believer. If this analogy is for CF to be 'the church' I've been involved with several churches that accept all people who volunteer to do things.

It's not like someone with a pagan icon is preaching bible study here.

And, on the note of it being a church, the church is simply the body of people and what THEY make of it. If an unbeliever attends that 'church' but doesn't believe, then that is where it stops for them, they cannot in themselves make a church based on that principle. That being said, It's also our responsibility, our being those who are Christians and a part of 'the church' to not cause dissension in any way, and singling out those who are "different" instead of reaching out is one sure way to cause such.

[Auntie]

It's a bug.
http://christianforums.com/t6697905-old-forums-pms.html



Auntie, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

[ravenscape]

Auntie, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.
Would you try to access it again? You should be able to see it.

It's an explanation of what happened technically, and why some people got a flood of PM notifications in their emails yesterday.

[Auntie]

Would you try to access it again? You should be able to see it.

It's an explanation of what happened technically, and why some people got a flood of PM notifications in their emails yesterday.


Sheesh, I guess I should count my lucky stars I only received 2! :eek:

[chaoschristian]

Please show me where Christ appointed a non believer to oversee the church.

Not this tired old line again.

Please show me where this place is an actual church.

[Crazy Liz]

Not this tired old line again.

Please show me where this place is an actual church.
Is this place a church & are our mods bishops?

If so, I think all arguments that LeeD owns the site and has the right to do with it what he wants are totally invalid.

[sacerdote]

Last year I wrote and Erwin adopted very specific and detailed Rules.

Everybody complained.

A week later, Murron and I revised the Rules. They were still specific and detailed.

Everybody complained.

This summer, Erwin let members write the Rules themselves.

Everybody complained.

This fall, Lee promulgated the current Rules.

Everybody complained.

Hello,

1. Where are the current rules?

2. My opinion is that nonNicenes should be allowed to be administrators/moderators as long as they are Christian and that all administrators and moderators should be Christian as this is a Christian Forum.

3. I will work with whoever the powers that be decide can work here. But I have also seen some odd behavior from a couple of moderators that I thought was unbecoming. I will report it in the future.

Thanks Everybody and God bless.

[ravenscape]

Hi sacerdote.

There is a link to the rules at the bottom of every CF webpage. Here's a direct link to them. http://christianforums.com/rules

[sacerdote]

Hi sacerdote.

There is a link to the rules at the bottom of every CF webpage. Here's a direct link to them. http://christianforums.com/rules

Oh those rules. Like the agreement we sign when joining. I bet they are underread. :)

No I thought the fellow was talking about some special rules of some kind. Thanks for your help. :groupray:

[Tenebrae]

I hate bigotry in any form. Where's the Christian love? The generosity of spirit? We have so few non-Nicene Christians mods (NOT non-Christians) on this site - hardly a dozen. Out of 192 staff!! I really can't see where they could possible be grabbing such power as is purported here. The demographics alone show it is just not possible.I totally agree

A person's religious beliefs, or lack of them, don't determine if they are a good mod or not. :)

I recall several months ago when I was going through a really rough patch and ended up chatting to an atheist moderator. Instead of jumping in with the "christianity is a pile of dung" line that many christians might expect a atheist to come out with, this mod encouraged me to go talk with my pastor, or other christian friend that I trusted and that I should not be making any important decisions without thinking things through and getting support from christian friends


This dreadful "totally ebil" non christian atheist moderator was instrumental in helping me keep on walking out my christian faith (this was said tounge in cheek, I owe much gratitude to that mod for her impartial approach to how she interacted with me)

Whether a person is a good mod does not depend on their religous beliefs

I'll oppose any motion to remove NC or Non-NCreed mods from staff.

I'm about as conservative as they get, yet this Christain power-grabbing is just pitiful and un-Christlike

Me too. This is just sad, I have nothing but respect for the non christian mods of this site, they have worked their behinds off, and done their best to apply the rules in a fair and impartial manner.

[Addicted2~Jesus]

Please show me the church. Lee is a believer. If this analogy is for CF to be 'the church' I've been involved with several churches that accept all people who volunteer to do things.

It's not like someone with a pagan icon is preaching bible study here.

And, on the note of it being a church, the church is simply the body of people and what THEY make of it. If an unbeliever attends that 'church' but doesn't believe, then that is where it stops for them, they cannot in themselves make a church based on that principle. That being said, It's also our responsibility, our being those who are Christians and a part of 'the church' to not cause dissension in any way, and singling out those who are "different" instead of reaching out is one sure way to cause such.

I've been sick of late an it's to late to try an look it up right now, I'm so bad at rememberin exactly where scripture is, buuuuuuttttt... puttin the church idea on the back burner for the minute... are we as Christians sposed to marry non-believers an be unequally yoked? Are we to assoicate wit em in such a way as thier sin causes us to sin? Didn't Jesus say to cut em off before the whole body stumbled? I'm bein quite generalized here I grant you, however, staff for as long as I have been part of cf has always been assigned the role of "authority", countless times of 'do as I say not as I do', 'I have authority in this matter', 'your infracted, warned, banned, etc etc etc'

As a matter of prinicple, if this is to actually be a Christian site, it's "leaders" (if they should even be considered such....) should be Christians. It's really that simple.

Now I can say I have seen the non-believers, er non-professin believers (no icon etc) be better mods then many MANY of those that claim to be Christian, the issue for me isn't wether they can do as good er better a job then a Christian, it's what fruit does cf as a whole show. I still don't have a problem wit non-believers moddin such forums as do not specifically pertain to Christian values, ethics theology etc, they don't hold the same ethical stances that Christains should same ethics etc an shouldn't be speakin of theological matters as if they were an authroity on this web site. Along wit that, I don't think they should ever amount to a majority of the votin party of a non-specifc christain area either... simply because of the original issue. They do not hold to the same principles that Christains should. So there would always be the potential to have a conflict of interest in that.

When you boil it down... who rules this site? It's dang sure not the members, we've been beat down so many times it's not funny.. is it to be a select group of "staff"? Are we to be led in prinicple on this site by some guy who doesn't bother to show up an is more interested in cf as a buisness then anythin else? Which then begs the question, is cf even attemptin to be any type of a ministry at all?

If it is sposed to be a ministry, then christians should 'rule' the site, if it's a buisness, those of us of the faith might as well hang up our hats now jes cause this horse has run all it's ever goin to run....

[Tenebrae]

I've been sick of late an it's to late to try an look it up right now, I'm so bad at rememberin exactly where scripture is, buuuuuuttttt... puttin the church idea on the back burner for the minute... are we as Christians sposed to marry non-believers an be unequally yoked? Are we to assoicate wit em in such a way as thier sin causes us to sin? Didn't Jesus say to cut em off before the whole body stumbled?


1 corinthians 7 12To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.



If it is sposed to be a ministry, then christians should 'rule' the site, if it's a buisness, those of us of the faith might as well hang up our hats now jes cause this horse has run all it's ever goin to run....

Ok, out of 200 mods, I've been able to find a total of five with either non christian icons, non orthodox icons such as mormonism, and icons such as seeker.

Now lets say for arguements sake and bad counting we double that number, tell me how you think that these 10 non christian or non orthodox christians are going to overrule the other 190 mods

[BlazeLight]

:clap: Thank you, Tenebrae! It should be obvious that us non-Christian mods actually have no chance to overrule Christian mods.:doh:

Apostasy is not contagious.

[ClaireZ]

Why is this being brought up yet again? I would think people would tire of the same old disagreements.

If the mods are doing a good job, then leave them alone. If they are not, then complain about the individual mod to their supervisor.

Really these people work hard, and devote long hours here for no pay, just the reward of helping out on the site. I think they deserve much more appreciation for the work they do.

[Tenebrae]

:clap: Thank you, Tenebrae! It should be obvious that us non-Christian mods actually have no chance to overrule Christian mods.:doh:

Apostasy is not contagious.
I'm just fed up to the back teeth with everyone treating you guys like lepers, not worthy to carry the title of mod.


Like I mentioned a few pages back, it was the actions of an atheist mod on CF who encouraged me to keep going in my faith and to not make any decisions rashly about whether to keep walking with Christ or to walk away


Yes folks


AN ATHEIST MOD helped a struggling christian to keep walking in her faith.


None of the "non christian and non orthodox mods" have no business being mods on a christian website crowd, want to hear about that do they?

[BlazeLight]

Tenebrae, I agree with you.

:sigh: Wish more people did, though.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Please show me where Christ appointed a non believer to oversee the church.
CF does not even begin to have the level of accountability or focus to even remotely be termed a "church". It bes a messageboard and barring the specific policing of theology -- which would just as readily divide various flavors of Christian from one another as divide Believers from Non-believers -- ANY member with the ability to be mature, consider all sides in a situation, remove their own emotions, prejudices and biases from the judgment-making process, and conduct themselves with integrity bes capable of assisting in the effort to see to it that members follow the board rules and don't treat one another like sacks of creamed crap.

[Redeemed_Warrior]

I find Integrity more important than Religous beliefs, i've seen both great integrity and severe lack of it from both sides of the coin


Rochir,Sabre,Raven are all fine examples of staffers

Ofcourse not forgetting sparklecat when she was about, amazing girl that one

[BlazeLight]

Aww,thanks RW!:)

[SallyNow]

Yup... accept em all, gays, liberal, pro-abortion etc etc etc.... sure, that way we won't be called narrow minded er closed minded, bigots, etc for standin on God's word.... since this place is hardly a Christian site anymore anyways, what's the use... jes like that worthless banner wit no mention of Christ but a stupid slay an deer runnin cross the moon... yah.. you bet le's jes accept em all, git down an allow non-belivers etc to rule over believers....

Yes, we should accept them all. There are liberal Christians, gay Christians, even pro-choice Christians. Some people here may not like them. But each person must be checked by their own merit, not some label they carry around with them.

A place becomes less Christian the more it becomes elitist. The more a place excludes some Christians, the more a place excludes seekers, the more a place becomes inhospitable to non-Christians, the less Christian a place becomes.

This is not a sanctuary for one belief. I could understand this sort of exclusivity in a cloister or place of Christian meditation where debate and discussion are not the point, but quiet prayer is. But this isn't a place of quiet prayer. It is a place of discussion, debate, fellowhship. This means there should be diversity.

Having a few non-Christian mods does make this place any more or less Christian. All it does is allow for more advocates for the members, with differing views that could be very useful for an internet forum.

[Angel4Truth]

Please show me the church All believers are the church - all BELIEVERS - NOT non believers. The church isnt a building or a place - its the group of believers. This is not a secular board.

Again it was promised there would be no non believers in admininstration or senior staff when this was discussed before - again it was not true.

[sacerdote]

All believers are the church - all BELIEVERS - NOT non believers. The church isnt a building or a place - its the group of believers. This is not a secular board.

Again it was promised there would be no non believers in admininstration or senior staff when this was discussed before - again it was not true.

In some of the regular forums a post like this where the author is honest and firmly states her convictions might get accusations of being partial, not inclusive, against diversity, bashing, etc.

Thankfully that won't happen on this thread at least I hope not.

Thanks for your honesty and God bless.

[chaoschristian]

All believers are the church - all BELIEVERS - NOT non believers. The church isnt a building or a place - its the group of believers. This is not a secular board.

Exactly. The Church, the Body of Christ, is comprised of the followers of Christ. It is not a message board, not a message board's administration, and certainly not a message board's means of moderating discussion.

Do not confuse and conflate the two.

The ministry of the Christians who are members of this board happens because they make it happen, not because this is a 'Christian' board, or because we have 'Christian' rules or because we have exclusively 'Christian' moderators. The moderators and administrators are in no way in spiritual authority over the Christian members here, certainly not this member, and any who think they are are foolish fools who are fooling themselves.

First and foremost this place must function well as an online discussion board, because that is what it is. Good moderation is not the exclusive domain of Christians. In fact this place has been hard pressed to demonstrate successfully that having the quality 'Christian' is necessary for having the quality 'good moderator.' It has been demonstrated, however, that non-Christian moderators can be and are an asset to the well-being and livelyhood of the community.

[praying]

Yup... accept em all, gays, liberal, pro-abortion etc etc etc.... sure, that way we won't be called narrow minded er closed minded, bigots, etc for standin on God's word.... since this place is hardly a Christian site anymore anyways, what's the use... jes like that worthless banner wit no mention of Christ but a stupid slay an deer runnin cross the moon... yah.. you bet le's jes accept em all, git down an allow non-belivers etc to rule over believers....

The door is right here. (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=christian+discussion+forums) :wave:

[praying]

Lambs to the slaughter..... I really cain't git that thought out of my head in regards to cf.. not jes this particular issue, but a multitude of issues here... flock bein led astray....


Well certainly you can step up to whatever imaginary plate there is and lead those lambs away from the slaughter rather than complaing about it, right? :)

[praying]

Agreed. But it is so common nowadays. Thanks so much to you A2J, and your commitment to Christ and His teachings.

Here:) is another poster willing to take the bull by the horns and lead folks away from the slaughter.

[praying]

agreed. :sigh:

The list is growing by leaps and bounds!

[praying]

Truth gets kicked to the curb.

post-modern-christianforums.com

Are going to join the folks leading people away from the slaughter?

[Addicted2~Jesus]

Are going to join the folks leading people away from the slaughter?

I.... spose..... you jes furgot the lil "multi-quote" function? Perhaps it's jes broke? I wonder.... I'm sorta surprised actually... considerin I have seen soooooo many people nailed to the wall... non-staff of course... for spamin... oh well....

If you place a person in a position of "leardership", wether it's sposed to be that way er not is inmaterial, I have personnaly been told by staff that they are an authority an there are bound to be those on cf that believe they are an authority, if you place them in a position where they could potentially damage, ie lead a lamb to sluaghter, then they shouldn't be in that position. I'll agin say that I don't actually have a problem wit non-christians moddin, I do however have a problem when they are in a position to hinder the kingdom rather then help it, this is jes a no brainer to me. It is quite obvious that the world an God's plans are not on the same plane, thus the ethical, moral, and prinicples of the world are NOT sumthin that a Christian, er sposed Christian website should allow to be conveyed. Nor should any christian mod actin in an ungodly manner be allowed to hold a position of ... well.. power. That's what it amounts to.

To the poster talkin bout allowin all these folks, I hope you understand I was speakin wit my tongue firmly in my cheek.... it is my belief that the words gay, pro-choice etc are oil an Christian is water. They flat out do not mix, you can not have in my opinion, a gay christian, er a pro-choice christian. They then, in my opinion, serve two masters. A debate for another place I grant you.

[praying]

So it comes to this: CF will be what is will be, what the members and staff make it.


Truer words have not been spoken.

[praying]

I.... spose..... you jes furgot the lil "multi-quote" function?

Well I actually just did not think of it because I rarely use it. :sorry: I will that from this point forward.

[E-beth]

I just don't see where any non believing mods are trying to change people's minds in any way. Of course, not every mod function comes with an altar call either, does it?

I guess I just can't buy into the whole "the atheists are out to get us" mentality. And just how exactly do we share the gospel with someone who feels like we don't want them in our presence in the first place? The Lord I serve isn't about segregation, but instead wants me to be a light IN the world, walking amongst all peoples, not looking down my nose at them as if I am superior, but with love and compassion.

I agree that a non-Believer would be unsuited for the congregational fora and those letalis mentioned, but really, how can a non-believer put my soul in jeopardy in the Gardening Forum?

[Mr.Cheese]

All I have to say about the OP is that it reeks of naivete.

I was an admin for a few years before all of the changes occurred and Christians are just as capable of behaving in a horrific manner as anyone else. Things happen that make your blood run cold.

If an unchristian staff member is doing a good job then I say keep them.

If you want to no longer allow such from applying for staff positions then fine.

But just getting rid of them isn't really going to make things different. An all christian staff will still suffer from being sneaky, lying, backstabbing, spiteful, hateful, evil, abusers of power over others. One reason is that believers are as human as anyone else. Another reason is that this site has grown way beyond the size of a family-like grassroots forum to the size of a large organization and this has brought the ills of such.

This site has always been a place for people who aren't Christians to be a part. It's what has always made us stand out as an honest forum rather than a collection of separatist dittoheads. Christianity that becomes isolationist is no longer Christianity but a rotting, stale bog that breeds suspicion and hatred of "others" rather than love.

[GraceInHim]

Originally Posted by Redeemed_Warrior http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=42085788#post42085788)
I'll oppose any motion to remove NC or Non-NCreed mods from staff.


me also, have a log in my eye and refuse to look at splinters in others ;)

[Rep Daddy]

The site is now predominantly post-modern. So apart from the misleading nature of the site's name and the "Be a Christian' link, I think things are pretty consistent.

4U was a more accurate label on the bottle, but less marketable.

Community trumps Truth.

as for me, I'm looking for a sixth STAR.

RepDaddy

[Heart of Darkness]

All I have to say about the OP is that it reeks of naivete.

I was an admin for a few years before all of the changes occurred and Christians are just as capable of behaving in a horrific manner as anyone else. Things happen that make your blood run cold.

If an unchristian staff member is doing a good job then I say keep them.

If you want to no longer allow such from applying for staff positions then fine.

But just getting rid of them isn't really going to make things different. An all christian staff will still suffer from being sneaky, lying, backstabbing, spiteful, hateful, evil, abusers of power over others. One reason is that believers are as human as anyone else. Another reason is that this site has grown way beyond the size of a family-like grassroots forum to the size of a large organization and this has brought the ills of such.

This site has always been a place for people who aren't Christians to be a part. It's what has always made us stand out as an honest forum rather than a collection of separatist dittoheads. Christianity that becomes isolationist is no longer Christianity but a rotting, stale bog that breeds suspicion and hatred of "others" rather than love.

Couldn't have said it better myself. :hug: God bless you.

[chaoschristian]

The site is now predominantly post-modern.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

[synger]

...
I agree that a non-Believer would be unsuited for the congregational fora and those letalis mentioned, but really, how can a non-believer put my soul in jeopardy in the Gardening Forum?

Exactly.

Keep in mind that the scope of the moderator application guidelines announced (http://christianforums.com/t6422681-moderator-application-guidelines.html)in November seem to take this into consideration.

The forums that are primarily designed for encouragement, fellowship, and discussion among Christians or about Christian topics, are limited to Christian moderators (theology, congregations, ministry, edification, outreach).

The HUGE number of forums that are not Christian-oriented in topic don't require Christian moderators (support, friendship, discussion/debate). In fact, friendship and D&D are arguably our two largest areas, post-wise. General Apologetics alone has over a million posts. I don't think any other forum on this site comes close.

[praying]

Please show me the church. Lee is a believer. If this analogy is for CF to be 'the church' I've been involved with several churches that accept all people who volunteer to do things.

It's not like someone with a pagan icon is preaching bible study here.

And, on the note of it being a church, the church is simply the body of people and what THEY make of it. If an unbeliever attends that 'church' but doesn't believe, then that is where it stops for them, they cannot in themselves make a church based on that principle. That being said, It's also our responsibility, our being those who are Christians and a part of 'the church' to not cause dissension in any way, and singling out those who are "different" instead of reaching out is one sure way to cause such.

QFT



If it is sposed to be a ministry, then christians should 'rule' the site, if it's a buisness, those of us of the faith might as well hang up our hats now jes cause this horse has run all it's ever goin to run....

I think the answer depends on who you ask. What I see since the new owner took over, a mostly Christian member internet website that the owner in his own words is interesting in monetizing. For him, it’s a business.

For me, it’s a place I come to discuss/read various issues and subjects.

For some (many?) it is there church and I am sure most are getting from it exactly what they are seeking, fellowship/discussion with like minded Christians.

For a lot of folks it is pure entertainment, a place to wile away a few minutes/hours :eek: on the internet.

Is it a ministry, yes if you (whoever you may be) are ministering to folks then you are making it a ministry.

So like I stated it all depends on who ask, it is what you make it. What it is not is a one stop exclusive shop for Christianity.


Exactly. The Church, the Body of Christ, is comprised of the followers of Christ. It is not a message board, not a message board's administration, and certainly not a message board's means of moderating discussion.

Do not confuse and conflate the two.

The ministry of the Christians who are members of this board happens because they make it happen, not because this is a 'Christian' board, or because we have 'Christian' rules or because we have exclusively 'Christian' moderators. The moderators and administrators are in no way in spiritual authority over the Christian members here, certainly not this member, and any who think they are are foolish fools who are fooling themselves.

First and foremost this place must function well as an online discussion board, because that is what it is. Good moderation is not the exclusive domain of Christians. In fact this place has been hard pressed to demonstrate successfully that having the quality 'Christian' is necessary for having the quality 'good moderator.' It has been demonstrated, however, that non-Christian moderators can be and are an asset to the well-being and livelyhood of the community.

QFT again and where is that rep button!!



If you place a person in a position of "leardership", wether it's sposed to be that way er not is inmaterial, I have personnaly been told by staff that they are an authority an there are bound to be those on cf that believe they are an authority,

I venture to say you are assigning way too much power and authority to moderators. Please read Chaos’ post above. I am not in a position of leadership, most of the time, 99.999999999% we staff (Christian and Non) are playing babysitter to a bunch of mostly adults who don’t know how to act. Member X you can’t call people stupid, member Y you can’t curse, member Z don’t derail the thread, member A don’t post about staff actions in the forums; report after report after report. If you call that leadership and ministering I think you have low expectations. As for the Admins, it’s a title, really don’t read so much into the fact that someone is called an Admin.

Do you (or any of those who object to non-Christians being on staff) post in any of these forums?

Outreach Forums
Questions by Non-Christians
Prayer Requests by Non-Christians
Struggles by Non-Christians

Just curious since the concern here is ministry and leading lambs to the slaughter? And as has been noted non-Christians can’t mod in Outreach or the congregational areas.



but really, how can a non-believer put my soul in jeopardy in the Gardening Forum?

By encouraging you to plant the devil’s fruit!! (http://www.fcps.edu/islandcreekes/ecology/devils_beggar-tick.htm) ;)

[chaoschristian]

If it is sposed to be a ministry, then christians should 'rule' the site, if it's a buisness, those of us of the faith might as well hang up our hats now jes cause this horse has run all it's ever goin to run....

It's a business that supports a community where ministry can happen.

[Heart of Darkness]

Do you (or any of those who object to non-Christians being on staff) post in any of these forums?

Outreach Forums
Questions by Non-Christians
Prayer Requests by Non-Christians
Struggles by Non-Christians

Just curious since the concern here is ministry and leading lambs to the slaughter? And as has been noted non-Christians can’t mod in Outreach or the congregational areas.

Brilliant questions! I am looking forward to reading their answers. :D

[OddBeani]

All believers are the church - all BELIEVERS - NOT non believers. The church isnt a building or a place - its the group of believers.
And the part after what was quoted was me stating that...note the inclusion I made about it being the Christian responsibility not to cause dissension...

[CaDan]

All believers are the church - all BELIEVERS - NOT non believers. The church isnt a building or a place - its the group of believers. This is not a secular board.


CaDan's Third Law--it applies even to discussions of message board policy. :D

[Rep Daddy]

It's a business that supports a community where ministry can happen.


Exactly. Now see we do not need to use the term "Christian" at all.

[chaoschristian]

Exactly. Now see we do not need to use the term "Christian" at all.

We never had to use the word in the first place in order for Christian ministry to take place here.

The presence or absense of the word is not a guarantee that Christian ministry will or will not happen.

And that it is a business that supports a community where ministry can take place doesn't preclude Christian ministry.

It can be, if we want it to happen.

But we don't need the word or the rules.

Or the moderators, to bring this back around to the topic at hand.

Even though the topic at hand is a non-issue as has already been adequately been demonstrated.

But the real issue, the root of all this consternation, is about power, and the desire to comingle and conflate temporal power with righteousness.

[Rep Daddy]

We never had to use the word in the first place in order for Christian ministry to take place here.

The presence or absense of the word is not a guarantee that Christian ministry will or will not happen.

And that it is a business that supports a community where ministry can take place doesn't preclude Christian ministry.

It can be, if we want it to happen.

But we don't need the word or the rules.

Or the moderators, to bring this back around to the topic at hand.

Even though the topic at hand is a non-issue as has already been adequately been demonstrated.

But the real issue, the root of all this consternation, is about power, and the desire to comingle and conflate temporal power with righteousness.

Hey remove the name "Christian" (http://christianforums.com/t5938259-in-defense-of-the-change-today.html) and I think think the label matches the content.

[praying]

Hey remove the name "Christian" (http://christianforums.com/t5938259-in-defense-of-the-change-today.html) and I think think the label matches the content.

Through all the changes in my fours years membership here the content has remained the same, just the names have changed, so if you were not for remove the name "Christian" before (say when you were the PAD) then why now?

[Rep Daddy]

Through all the changes in my fours years membership here the content has remained the same, just the names have changed, so if you were not for remove the name "Christian" before (say when you were the PAD) then why now?

Not so. 7-7-7 jettisoned the Nicene Creed and trinitarian concept of God to post in the CO areas. It also reversed the stance on who can be mods and blurred the sites definition of "Christian" for purposes of this site. And hundreds of Nicene Christian regulars are gone or rarely post.

But hey begging reps here has definitely improved!

[praying]

Not so. 7-7-7 jettisoned the Nicene Creed and trinitarian concept of God to post in the CO areas. It also reversed the stance on who can be mods and blurred the sites definition of "Christian" for purposes of this site. And hundreds of Nicene Christian regulars are gone or rarely post.

But hey begging reps here has definitely improved!

By content, I was referring to and thought you were also, what people actually post. That has remained constant. The site is a lot less controlling which to me is a good thing.

[chaoschristian]

Hey remove the name "Christian" (http://christianforums.com/t5938259-in-defense-of-the-change-today.html) and I think think the label matches the content.

Despite what your other post asserts, praying's observation stands - the content hasn't changed much over the course of all of CF's changes.

What changed during the 777 reforms, and what changed again slightly when Lee took over, were priviledges.

And that's mostly why those other folks left (and why you've threatened to leave, but here you are), it was about a loss of the priviledge to be Christian to the exclusion of others, not on the merits of the claim, but from a position of power and priviledge.

Sorry you and others don't like that.

[Mary_Magdalene]

Do you (or any of those who object to non-Christians being on staff) post in any of these forums?

Outreach Forums
Questions by Non-Christians
Prayer Requests by Non-Christians
Struggles by Non-Christians



yes. on a daily basis. You? :)

[Angel4Truth]

Do you (or any of those who object to non-Christians being on staff) post in any of these forums?

Outreach Forums
Questions by Non-Christians
Prayer Requests by Non-Christians
Struggles by Non-Christians

Also yes . And you?

[Rep Daddy]

Despite what your other post asserts, praying's observation stands - the content hasn't changed much over the course of all of CF's changes.

What changed during the 777 reforms, and what changed again slightly when Lee took over, were priviledges.

And that's mostly why those other folks left (and why you've threatened to leave, but here you are), it was about a loss of the priviledge to be Christian to the exclusion of others, not on the merits of the claim, but from a position of power and priviledge.

Sorry you and others don't like that.

Hey, I'm happy as a clam among the Repaholics. Even changed my name.

As for the rest of this place I think a name change would be more consistent but I really don't care. If LeeD wants it this way, cool. If he want somebody to be on staff fine by me even if it is a Martian.

So, drstevej left. RepDaddy is piling up the Stars.

[Breetai]

By content, I was referring to and thought you were also, what people actually post. That has remained constant. The site is a lot less controlling which to me is a good thing.Definitely not the case in the unorthodox area. It has become an absolute farce there.

[tapero]

Definitely not the case in the unorthodox area. It has become an absolute farce there.

What forums are you referring to?

If discussion and debate forums under debate team, is how they've always been. Nothing has changed.

And is not a farce there either. (Except some really cold hearted posters (Christians) have come there and are treating non Christians like dirt basically, is one change I've noticed in the past few months.)

So you must be referring to another forum area?

[Angeldove97]

Why is this being brought up yet again? I would think people would tire of the same old disagreements.

If the mods are doing a good job, then leave them alone. If they are not, then complain about the individual mod to their supervisor.

Really these people work hard, and devote long hours here for no pay, just the reward of helping out on the site. I think they deserve much more appreciation for the work they do.

Thank you.

:thumbsup:

[SallyNow]

I.... spose..... you jes furgot the lil "multi-quote" function? Perhaps it's jes broke? I wonder.... I'm sorta surprised actually... considerin I have seen soooooo many people nailed to the wall... non-staff of course... for spamin... oh well....

If you place a person in a position of "leardership", wether it's sposed to be that way er not is inmaterial, I have personnaly been told by staff that they are an authority an there are bound to be those on cf that believe they are an authority, if you place them in a position where they could potentially damage, ie lead a lamb to sluaghter, then they shouldn't be in that position. I'll agin say that I don't actually have a problem wit non-christians moddin, I do however have a problem when they are in a position to hinder the kingdom rather then help it, this is jes a no brainer to me. It is quite obvious that the world an God's plans are not on the same plane, thus the ethical, moral, and prinicples of the world are NOT sumthin that a Christian, er sposed Christian website should allow to be conveyed. Nor should any christian mod actin in an ungodly manner be allowed to hold a position of ... well.. power. That's what it amounts to.

To the poster talkin bout allowin all these folks, I hope you understand I was speakin wit my tongue firmly in my cheek.... it is my belief that the words gay, pro-choice etc are oil an Christian is water. They flat out do not mix, you can not have in my opinion, a gay christian, er a pro-choice christian. They then, in my opinion, serve two masters. A debate for another place I grant you.


Good thing that, on the other side, there are people who strongly believe the opposite.

Hey, there are even Christians who believe that is you eat meat or wear leather or cut your hair you serve two masters (I don't necessarly agree with these, I'm just using the first examples that came to my head)

And that is why CF, if it is to remain a vibrant Christian community, must include all these different opinions. Not pick and choose what some people like more, but allow everyone to express their opinions, provided they are not rude and that they comply with applicable laws.

For, even within a Christian community, there will be non-Christians. Anywhere in real life, there will be non-Christians within a Christian community. There will be non-Christian shopkeepers, or accountants, or contractors, and so many more. Does that mean that a Christian does not buy from a non-Christian shopkeeper, or does not take advice from a non-Christian accountant? Of course not. Right?

There is no harm from allowing CF to have non-Christian moderators offering their opinions and support. Their jobs are to help out members who need to talk, and to make sure CFers are keeping to the rules.

CF isn't a Church. It's a community. And in a Christian community all are welcome. Even non-traditional Christians, unOrthodox Christians, and non-Christians.

:groupray:

[Athene]

*runs around thread screaming*

It seems to me that those who are against non-Christian moderators have a curious belief that moderators are in some kind of spiritual authority over the members of this forum.

To borrow the cafe analogy used earlier, Lee is the owner, he is the one who has the authority over who he hires and who can come into his cafe, he decides the selection of foods the customers can choose from, we moderators are the staff, it's not our place to tell customers what they should buy, we cant make them drink tea if they want coffee, we can't make them eat a cheese sandwich if they want tuna and cucumber, if the customer makes a mess and slops food all over the floor then it is our responsibility to clean up that mess, if the customer is deliberately making a mess then we can take some measures to get them to stop and we do so not to show that person who is boss but rather because it disturbs the other customers to have somebody throwing food around.

I suppose it's all down to perspective, if you think that being a moderator gives you authority over people to bend them to your will then I suppose you would object to non-Christian mods, however if you think that people become moderators because they merely want to help out then having non-Christian moderators is no issue at all.

That being said, there are a few areas where a moderator may be required to give Christian counsel, non-Christians are not permitted to moderate in those areas which is fair enough imo.

[ClaireZ]

*runs around thread screaming*

It seems to me that those who are against non-Christian moderators have a curious belief that moderators are in some kind of spiritual authority over the members of this forum.

To borrow the cafe analogy used earlier, Lee is the owner, he is the one who has the authority over who he hires and who can come into his cafe, he decides the selection of foods the customers can choose from, we moderators are the staff, it's not our place to tell customers what they should buy, we cant make them drink tea if they want coffee, we can't make them eat a cheese sandwich if they want tuna and cucumber, if the customer makes a mess and slops food all over the floor then it is our responsibility to clean up that mess, if the customer is deliberately making a mess then we can take some measures to get them to stop and we do so not to show that person who is boss but rather because it disturbs the other customers to have somebody throwing food around.

I suppose it's all down to perspective, if you think that being a moderator gives you authority over people to bend them to your will then I suppose you would object to non-Christian mods, however if you think that people become moderators because they merely want to help out then having non-Christian moderators is no issue at all.

That being said, there are a few areas where a moderator may be required to give Christian counsel, non-Christians are not permitted to moderate in those areas which is fair enough imo.

Apt Analogy and good post. :)

I would like to applaud all our mods not matter what their faith or lack thereof, for making this a place where all are free to enjoy this site, and voice their opinions.

[BlazeLight]

Non-Christians are not scary.

[Athene]

Non-Christians are not scary.

Except the ones who wear fruit baskets on their heads. :holy:

[BlazeLight]

Except the ones who wear fruit baskets on their heads. :holy:
I thought it was an interesting outfit. I'm one of the flamboyant posters.:P

[Redeemed_Warrior]

Non-Christians are not scary.
*hides in fear* says you! ;) nice hat :P

[sacerdote]

By content, I was referring to and thought you were also, what people actually post. That has remained constant. The site is a lot less controlling which to me is a good thing.

I'm not sure if less control is necessarily a good thing in all cases. I don't know what the content was like before, but I see a few threads with nasty or R-rated language and the same kinds of topics. Some of the members refer to one of the forums as a "cesspool."

Thank God these things are in the minority.

God bless you all.

[praying]

I'm not sure if less control is necessarily a good thing in all cases.

Agreed but in this case IMHO it is a good thing.

I don't know what the content was like before, but I see a few threads with nasty or R-rated language


Not sure what that means since there is a profanity filter and bypassing it will get you an edit and/or a warning from staff with further occurrences possibly resulting in infractions.

and the same kinds of topics. Some of the members refer to one of the forums as a "cesspool."


Well we can't please everyone, some of the members will always complain.

[CelticGrace]

This thread is now closed for review and cleanup of off-topic posts, which will be split into a new thread. After that has been done, this thread will reopen.

Thank you for your patience.

CelticGrace

[Richard]

Re-Opened. Please stay on topic so we won't have to close again! Thanks :)

[Breetai]

Not sure what that means since there is a profanity filter and bypassing it will get you an edit and/or a warning from staff with further occurrences possibly resulting in infractions.The word "crap" ought to be filtered.

[Angel4Truth]

I'm not sure if less control is necessarily a good thing in all cases. I don't know what the content was like before, but I see a few threads with nasty or R-rated language and the same kinds of topics. Some of the members refer to one of the forums as a "cesspool."

Thank God these things are in the minority.

God bless you all.

This bears repeating because its true.

As to the cafe anaology in the thread - its poor because CF wasnt created to make money as its sole intent - thats the intent of a cafe.

Is this place to be a brunch club or a christian board whose main intent should be a witness to Christ? (there are massive secular boards on the web to choose from for that)

A cafe doesnt care if its a witness to Christ or not - it cares if its making money and adapts according to those who frequent it (world/flesh) to ensure profitability.

Witnesses for Christ care about the things of God being represented as a light to the world and to feed the Spirit.

John 3:6. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6: 63. "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Romans 8: 5. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

[praying]

TCF wasnt created to make money as its sole intent

That was then this is now and CF's purpose from the owner's perspective as I see it is to make money. Thus the stupids ads everywhere. And the absentee landlord.

[Angel4Truth]

Praying - I disagree - see the new announcement about the return to nicene only theology here and no promotion of anything else and the closing of some forums. Seems to me its starting to look like he cares about this place being a witness.

I am still concerned however of non believing mods because yes mods do often get pmed by skeptics and non believers and christians needing spiritual assistance.

Also sometimes Ive seen huge conflict of interest issues shown by some non believer mods here as well as bias shown to those who frequent boards where some cross moderate. Thats a problem. A huge one. Another reason i am against non believers being mods. They cannot and do not represent the kingdom of heaven.

[praying]

Praying - I disagree - see the new announcement about the return to nicene only theology here and no promotion of anything else and the closing of some forums. Seems to me its starting to look like he cares about this place being a witness.

Yes I saw and I don't agree with it but that is neither here nor there. It is my estimation that the board is being positioned to attract a certain brand of Christianity that's all. People who will hopefully get to clicking on those stupid ads.

I am still concerned however of non believing mods because yes mods do often get pmed by skeptics and non believers and christians needing spiritual assistance.

Also sometimes Ive seen huge conflict of interest issues shown by some non believer mods here as well as bias shown to those who frequent boards where some cross moderate. Thats a problem. A huge one.

I have not seen this bias you speak of, in fact perhaps you should provide some links to said bias. If anything the few and I do mean few non-Christian mods here go out of their way not to be perceived that way.


Another reason i am against non believers being mods. They cannot and do not represent the kingdom of heaven.


Neither do a lot of Christians.

[CaDan]

Praying - I disagree - see the new announcement about the return to nicene only theology here and no promotion of anything else and the closing of some forums. Seems to me its starting to look like he cares about this place being a witness.


It is not "Nicene-only" theology. It is a bastardized subset of it.

[Angel4Truth]

CaDan my happiness in the announcements that no one will be able to promote their religions outside of christianity any longer. Also as a moderator are yu saying you wont uphold that rule?

[CaDan]

CaDan my happiness in the announcements that no one will be able to promote their religions outside of christianity any longer.

Is there supposed to be a verb in there someplace?

[Angel4Truth]

CaDan can you respond to what I asked you or are you more concerned about a typo?

I asked : CaDan , based upon this response you made : It is not "Nicene-only" theology. It is a bastardized subset of it. Does this response mean that you will not enforce this new guideline here? Its a yes or no question.

[CaDan]

CaDan can you respond to what I asked you or are you more concerned about a typo?

I asked : CaDan , based upon this response you made : Does this response mean that you will not enforce this new guideline here? Its a yes or no question. [/SIZE][/FONT]

And this does not follow from my quoted statement at all. The various footnotes gut the Nicene Creed. "One baptism for the forgiveness of sins" is important. "One holy catholic and apostolic" church is important. I object to calling this "Nicene" when it is not.

But it is not just that. The various Protestant forums tend to be rife with varieties of Nestorianism and Docetism. It is going to be a nightmare to enforce the Trinitarian statements in the Symbol if we are serious about this.

Is Mary the Mother of God?

[Angel4Truth]

CaDan yes and no. Been there done that and the nicene creed doesnt mention mary - and its another thread and has nothing to do with this one. The announcement message by me was adressing the statement that this board isnt concered about witness but about money.

Can we get back to the topic now?

[Bombila]

CaDan has it right. As well, I'm guessing many of the 'Nicene' moderators don't have a clear enough grasp of the niceties of the theological minutiae involved, either.

It is particularly unpleasant to see some of the 'in' Christians crowing happily about the new rule, apparently unfazed by the hurt it will cause many others.

[CaDan]

CaDan yes and no. Been there done that and the nicene creed doesnt mention mary - and its another thread and has nothing to do with this one. The announcement message by me was adressing the statement that this board isnt concered about witness but about money.

Yes, it does.

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.

Next week that may very well be a violation of the rules. Better get studying! :D

[Angel4Truth]

Bombila many of us would rather someones "feelings" be hurt rather than their soul destroyed. Im sorry it hurts some peoples 'feelings' that they cannot walk into a christian message board and promote other religions - the announcement clear said that people can still frequent any area and post there they just cannot promote anything else besides biblical christianity.

Thats a plus to effective witness here. We have to receive Christ as Lord and savior to enter the kingdom of heaven and God isnt going to change that because someone says " I am an atheist - refused Christs offer of salvation and my feelings are hurt that you wont let me into the kingdom of heaven anyway doing things my own way instead of yours".

Because non believers and those of other religions do not represent christianity as they are not saved by Christs grace - they dont need to be representing leadership on this board either. Thats a conflict of interest plain and simple.

[Angel4Truth]

CaDan - no it doesnt mention mary as or not as the mother of God. Sorry you are such a literalist that i needed to be that specific. Again - thats another thread lets get back on topic.

[BelindaP]

A4T, sorry to break it to you, but if you deny Mary is the mother of God, you can't possibly comply with the Nicene Creed. The pathetic thing is that CF now has this standard, but many of the people in charge of enforcing it don't seem to have a clue what it really means.

Let me explain. The Creed states that Jesus (God) was incarnate of the virgin Mary. That means that she is the mother of God. Denying it violates the Nicene Creed, because it denies at some level the divinity of Christ, who is both 100% man and 100% God.

Also, it's going to be hard to effectively witness to people when the only people who are going to be left are the True Believers (TM).

[Heart of Darkness]

We are so blessed to have you on staff here, CaDan. Thank you for being a voice of reason and Christian compassion. :hug:

[Amoranemix]

Since the case for non-Christian moderators has already been won on the argumentative side, I won't give the nearly exhaustive response I usually give.


As admin of one of the LDS forums, I'd be interested to know to which LDS forum you [Breetai] refer. Is it the Theology one or the Congregational one? If the latter, perhaps you would like to pm me with details of your concerns.Why not post those details of those concerns in public ?

It shouldnt be about making the lost feel comfortable being lost and feel as if they are ok when they are not ok.Maybe if they are not comfortable with the bigotry and discrimination the lost will just leave, taking a distaste for Christianity with them. Staff misconduct may have a similar effect.

It's a bug.
http://christianforums.com/t6697905-old-forums-pms.htmlI still don't have high enough clearance to see it. Apparently it is a secret bug.

Now I can say I have seen the non-believers, er non-professin believers (no icon etc) be better mods then many MANY of those that claim to be Christian, the issue for me isn't wether they can do as good er better a job then a Christian, it's what fruit does cf as a whole show. I still don't have a problem wit non-believers moddin such forums as do not specifically pertain to Christian values, ethics theology etc, they don't hold the same ethical stances that Christains should same ethics etc an shouldn't be speakin of theological matters as if they were an authroity on this web site. Along wit that, I don't think they should ever amount to a majority of the votin party of a non-specifc christain area either... simply because of the original issue. They do not hold to the same principles that Christains should. So there would always be the potential to have a conflict of interest in that.When I browsed the Christian sections during the semi-democratic period and followed some of the drama that occurred there, I had the impression that the most two important obstacles for moderating there would be :
my ignorance about theological matters
antagonism from the membershipThe latter would be the most important. To gain sufficient knowledge I would merely need to participate in the forums, which I would need to do anyway to moderate there. I am an advocate of having moral, legislative and management problems tackled by a diverse group of people. People at odds with a problem under scrutiny can often make a positive contribution thanks to their difference as long as they remain a minority. Diversity is beautiful.
The second reason is psychological/perceptual, more important and would be much harder to overcome. It is a feeling, a discrimination out of principle that non-Christians have no business and cannot be trusted to moderate Christian sections, no matter the track record they would set. Since that discrimination is a human treat rather than a uniquely Christian one I find that acceptable. In addition, the leaders should sometimes avoid following the right policy if it goes against the will of the people, since otherwise the problems created by those people due to destructive attitude may outway those the policy solves.
If LeeD was an atheist that ran christianforums exactly the same way as LeeD does now, then I think there would be a Christian exodus. Since LeeD the atheist would be running the board as good or as bad as LeeD the Christian there would be little rational ground to leave, but people will perceive his leadership differently and less Christian. That would be compounded if they already think of him as a bad leader now.

If it is sposed to be a ministry, then christians should 'rule' the site, if it's a buisness, those of us of the faith might as well hang up our hats now jes cause this horse has run all it's ever goin to run....I think it is a place for people to hang out so that someone can make money out of it. The enveloping theme is Christianity.

Bombila many of us would rather someones "feelings" be hurt rather than their soul destroyed.Perhaps you should do neither.

Thats a plus to effective witness here. We have to receive Christ as Lord and savior to enter the kingdom of heaven and God isnt going to change that because someone says " I am an atheist - refused Christs offer of salvation and my feelings are hurt that you wont let me into the kingdom of heaven anyway doing things my own way instead of yours".Very few people would say that.

How many non-Christian superadministrators are there ?

[Heart of Darkness]

edited

[Glass*Soul]

edited

I caught your comment seconds before you edited. :cool:

To quote Marilyn Manson, "Some day this will all be picturesque ruins."

[Rep Daddy]

nm old post

[CaDan]

I caught your comment seconds before you edited. :cool:

To quote Marilyn Manson, "Some day this will all be picturesque ruins."

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shatter'd visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamp'd on these lifeless things,
The hand that mock'd them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains: round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

~Shelley

[nikkicheerleader18]

I think the person who posted this is a bit overreacting here. Its not a big deal that non Christians are mods. They can do just as good as a job as Christian mods, some even better, probably.

[KatAutumn]

They cannot and do not represent the kingdom of heaven.

I hate to say this, but in my years of being a member here - most people who profess Nicene Christianity do not represent the kingdom of heaven either. If this site is supposed to be a witness, then why do many Christian members here represent Christ so poorly? Is it worse that someone may see a post created by a Buddhist saying that Buddhism is a peaceful religion or a post someone may see written by a Christian that is filled with utter vitriol for those the member disagrees with?

I think if the aim of CF is to be a witness for Christ then the Christian members here should keep this in mind and do a much better job representing their faith.

[Angel4Truth]

I hate to say this, but in my years of being a member here - most people who profess Nicene Christianity do not represent the kingdom of heaven either. If this site is supposed to be a witness, then why do many Christian members here represent Christ so poorly? Is it worse that someone may see a post created by a Buddhist saying that Buddhism is a peaceful religion or a post someone may see written by a Christian that is filled with utter vitriol for those the member disagrees with?

I think if the aim of CF is to be a witness for Christ then the Christian members here should keep this in mind and do a much better job representing their faith. We are talking about staff members in this thread not christian members in general - obviously a member that behaves in the manner you have described isnt qualified to be a staff member either.

As far as the behavior of regular members im sorry that has been your experience but then I have experiences where people are overgeneralized here for ulterior motives as well and/or claims of unfairness but purely from a secular standpoint and not one of a spiritual standpoint and yes there is a world of difference.

Now back to the issue - non believer staff members -A believer has to answer to God for their actions and lack of and especially those in leadership positions where other members of the body of Christ are concerned. Those outside of the church obviously do not share this concern.

Sometimes people have questions or issues that require a firm believer to respond to them and yes they often come to staff with them. It is highly unlikely that any "buddhist" who is happy with their religion and believe that they have the "truth" would actually steer anyone toward Jesus Christ alone as Lord and Savior, nor would they most likely be able to with a clear conscience of their own enforce the no promotion of other religions if they actually believed in their own. Thats a conflict of interest.

Its also not likely they would refer a person to a mature believer in Christ to help them with those issues. Many reasons its unwise to have those outside of the body overseeing those within it and those who contemplate being part of it.

[SallyNow]

We are talking about staff members in this thread not christian members in general - obviously a member that behaves in the manner you have described isnt qualified to be a staff member either.

As far as the behavior of regular members im sorry that has been your experience but then I have experiences where people are overgeneralized here for ulterior motives as well and/or claims of unfairness but purely from a secular standpoint and not one of a spiritual standpoint and yes there is a world of difference.

Now back to the issue - non believer staff members -A believer has to answer to God for their actions and lack of and especially those in leadership positions where other members of the body of Christ are concerned. Those outside of the church obviously do not share this concern.

Sometimes people have questions or issues that require a firm believer to respond to them and yes they often come to staff with them. It is highly unlikely that any "buddhist" who is happy with their religion and believe that they have the "truth" would actually steer anyone toward Jesus Christ alone as Lord and Savior, nor would they most likely be able to with a clear conscience of their own enforce the no promotion of other religions if they actually believed in their own. Thats a conflict of interest.

Its also not likely they would refer a person to a mature believer in Christ to help them with those issues. Many reasons its unwise to have those outside of the body overseeing those within it and those who contemplate being part of it.

What about a Jewish moderator? Considering the links between Christianity and Judiasm, certainly it would be prudent to have Jewish moderators.

[KatAutumn]

We are talking about staff members in this thread not christian members in general - obviously a member that behaves in the manner you have described isnt qualified to be a staff member either.

As far as the behavior of regular members im sorry that has been your experience but then I have experiences where people are overgeneralized here for ulterior motives as well and/or claims of unfairness but purely from a secular standpoint and not one of a spiritual standpoint and yes there is a world of difference.

Now back to the issue - non believer staff members -A believer has to answer to God for their actions and lack of and especially those in leadership positions where other members of the body of Christ are concerned. Those outside of the church obviously do not share this concern.

Sometimes people have questions or issues that require a firm believer to respond to them and yes they often come to staff with them. It is highly unlikely that any "buddhist" who is happy with their religion and believe that they have the "truth" would actually steer anyone toward Jesus Christ alone as Lord and Savior, nor would they most likely be able to with a clear conscience of their own enforce the no promotion of other religions if they actually believed in their own. Thats a conflict of interest.

Its also not likely they would refer a person to a mature believer in Christ to help them with those issues. Many reasons its unwise to have those outside of the body overseeing those within it and those who contemplate being part of it.

I did not realize that moderator responsibility also included ministering to members. I thought their only job was to maintain the civility and regular flow of discussion on their assigned forums. I thought the ministering aspect was one of the reasons why Erwin included the "Pastor" icons for ordained members' profiles before the server switch. If moderator responsibility includes ministering to members, would it present a conflict of interest if a man was seeking spiritual guidance from a female moderator? Would it be a conflict of interest if a wife was seeking spiritual guidance from a male moderator if she had a husband who is supposed to be her spiritual leader?

IMO, I don't think it would be beneficial to appoint non-christians to moderate the theology or fellowship forums; however, why would someone posting to, say, E & M or Hobbies forums be asking for spiritual advice from those presiding over those boards in the first place?

[Angel4Truth]

New members and non believers and those inquiring ask many questions of mods and mods also have to councel members who might be having issues which could be evident by posts and so on. I would know since i have served on staff here and it happens all the time. doesnt matter what forum you moderate - because of my username I would be pmed (as it used to show up high on the list on the main page) just because i had a mod symbol by my name and believe it or not many come here seeking and contact moderation for assistance/councel.

Obviously some of the issues youve also mentioned would require referal to another staff member/clergy or male/female member for assistance depending on the issue.

Non believers are not qualified to deal with that aspect of staff nor would i think they would care to refer someone especially those of other religions if they actually believe in them. Not to mention they also make decisions concerning issues that affect only believers. This should never happen.

[Tenebrae]

I recall once when I was having a real crisis of faith, for some reason I ended up speaking to the only non christian mod on staff at time. She is an avowed atheist. However unlike many would think, instead of telling me what a joke Christianity was, and how I should give it up as a bad job and move on, her main suggestion was to go chat to a christian friend or mentor, before making any big decisions about my faith.



I think the non christians that we have on staff are more than capable of offewring assistance to members in difficulty, and if need be refering them onto someone that would be more appropriate to talk to.


SOmehow me thinks if they are not capable of that then they dont get onto staff usually

[CaDan]

Much better to have bitter trolls on staff, as long as they say the magic Nicene words.

/snark

[ravenscape]

sparklecat ftw. I miss her a lot. Hope things are going well for her!

[KatAutumn]

Non believers are not qualified to deal with that aspect of staff nor would i think they would care to refer someone especially those of other religions if they actually believe in them. Not to mention they also make decisions concerning issues that affect only believers. This should never happen.

It's a shame you have such a low opinion of the non-christian moderators here. Regardless of their religious views, they still have an obligation to follow the rules set forth for moderators.

I would also like to know what decisions moderators have to make that would *only* affect Christians.

[Glass*Soul]

sparklecat ftw. I miss her a lot. Hope things are going well for her!

Me too.

You're both the bee's knees.

[Angel4Truth]

Much better to have bitter trolls on staff, as long as they say the magic Nicene words.

/snarkI'm sorry you have to work with someone you think is a bitter troll who is on staff. Not a very nice thing to say though about your fellow staff members i would rethink that because it doesnt set a very good example either considering your a christian administrator of the site.

It's a shame you have such a low opinion of the non-christian moderators here. Regardless of their religious views, they still have an obligation to follow the rules set forth for moderators.

I would also like to know what decisions moderators have to make that would *only* affect Christians.Nowhere have I said any such thing. My opinion of someone personally and my opinion on if someone is qualified for a position are two different things completely. Shame you would have to stoop to that. Good day.

[KatAutumn]

Nowhere have I said any such thing. My opinion of someone personally and my opinion on if someone is qualified for a position are two different things completely. Shame you would have to stoop to that. Good day.

You stated that non-christians are not qualified to be moderators here. One of your reasons is because you believe that non-christians would not care to refer a struggling Christian to the appropriate person. That is not attacking their qualifications. You were attacking their character specifically. As if non-christians are a bunch of bitter children who don't want the advancement of the Christian faith and this would somehow be reflected in their moderating abilities.

[Angel4Truth]

qualifications or lack of doesnt = low opinion.

[Angel4Truth]

You stated that non-christians are not qualified to be moderators here. One of your reasons is because you believe that non-christians would not care to refer a struggling Christian to the appropriate person. That is not attacking their qualifications. You were attacking their character specifically. As if non-christians are a bunch of bitter children who don't want the advancement of the Christian faith and this would somehow be reflected in their moderating abilities.


Im sad to see you willing to bear false witness as Ive done or said no such thing. Our conversation is over. Have a pleasant evening.

[CaDan]

I'm sorry you have to work with someone you think is a bitter troll who is on staff. Not a very nice thing to say though about your fellow staff members i would rethink that because it doesnt set a very good example either considering your a christian administrator of the site.


Thank you for misrepresenting my statement. I didn't say I "have to work with someone [I] think is a bitter troll . . .."

My "thanks" for you pointing this out are as heartfelt as your "sorrow," I am sure.

[Angel4Truth]

Thank you for misrepresenting my statement. I didn't say I "have to work with someone [i] think is a bitter troll . . .."

My "thanks" for you pointing this out are as heartfelt as your "sorrow," I am sure.Please explain who your comment was directed at CaDan and it will clear everything right up. Lastly your thoughts on my sincerity / person or whatever is irrelevant to the conversation and i would also think you would know better than the direction your posts are taking being that you are staff. Wouldnt you say?

I mean you wouldnt want to present a double standard would you?

[ravenscape]

Mmm...

Let's dial back the snark just a tad, folks.

Thanks,

Raven.

[CaDan]

Please explain who your comment was directed at CaDan and it will clear everything right up.

Why, the audience at large for this thread.

[Angel4Truth]

Why, the audience at large for this thread.
So the audience at large in this thread are bitter trolls on staff? I see. Thanks. :thumbsup:

[CaDan]

*sigh*

You seem to be assuming somehow that I said current Staff is composed of bitter trolls. I did not intend that reading. If I gave that impression, I withdraw it.

This derail is over.

[Angel4Truth]

*sigh*

You seem to be assuming somehow that I said current Staff is composed of bitter trolls. I did not intend that reading. If I gave that impression, I withdraw it.

This derail is over.Actually CaDan my assumption is best asked of me.

Im guessing that you were refering to me with your bitter troll comment being that I was once on staff. I just wanted you to admit it since you were already willing to show a double standard by flaming others when you are a staff administrator supposedly upholding the guidelines here. So much for your guess on what i think. At least i am able to ask you.

[KatAutumn]

Im sad to see you willing to bear false witness as Ive done or said no such thing. Our conversation is over. Have a pleasant evening.

Was it not bearing false witness against the non-christian moderators here to imply that they would not care to refer a Christian in need of counsel to the appropriate person? Had you simply stated that non-christian moderators are not capable of ministering in a Christian capacity to Christian members, then you would be correct. You stated, however, that non-christian moderators are not willing to direct a person through the proper channels. That is showing a low opinion of the individuals, as you have made an assumption about their motives. If you meant something else by the following two statements I'd be glad to hear what you have to say:

Its also not likely they would refer a person to a mature believer in Christ to help them with those issues.

Non believers are not qualified to deal with that aspect of staff nor would i think they would care to refer someone especially those of other religions if they actually believe in them.

[CaDan]

This derail is over.

[Angel4Truth]

Was it not bearing false witness against the non-christian moderators here to imply that they would not care to refer a Christian in need of counsel to the appropriate person? Had you simply stated that non-christian moderators are not capable of ministering in a Christian capacity to Christian members, then you would be correct. You stated, however, that non-christian moderators are not willing to direct a person through the proper channels. That is showing a low opinion of the individuals, as you have made an assumption about their motives. If you meant something else by the following two statements I'd be glad to hear what you have to say:

I implied no such thing. I even said if they actually believed their religion was the right one in good conscience they would not be able to if they truely believed christianity was wrong.

The comment in red is exactly what i have said ad nauseum.

The comment in blue is not even an issue in my thinking but feel free to continue to shove words in my mouth.

Ive already explained my thinking to you believe it or not. Your choice.

Personal opinion on a person doesnt = ability to perform a given task. I wouldnt hire a plumber to fix my car but that doesnt mean i have low opinion of them. So if you choose to continue to believe i think other than what ive stated thats on you.

[KatAutumn]

I implied no such thing. I even said if they actually believed their religion was the right one in good conscience they would not be able to if they truely believed christianity was wrong.

The comment in red is exactly what i have said ad nauseum.

The comment in blue is not even an issue in my thinking but feel free to continue to shove words in my mouth.

Ive already explained my thinking to you believe it or not. Your choice.

Personal opinion on a person doesnt = ability to perform a given task. I wouldnt hire a plumber to fix my car but that doesnt mean i have low opinion of them. So if you choose to continue believe i think other than what ive stated thats on you.

How does believing in a religion outside of Christianity make one unable to point someone in the right direction when they are seeking Christian counsel? I'm not a Christian, but if someone in real-life asked me about Christianity and asking for Christian advice I would have no compunction over pointing them in t