tall73 and Reddogs discuss the Adventist Sanctuary Doctrine

[tall73]

This is a conversation that was conceived of in the Adventist section. It is a discussion of the Adventist sanctuary doctrine and my objections to it. Portions of the 28th chapter of Ellen White's book "The Great Controversy" will be examined as they are generally recognized by both parties to represent the traditional Adventist view of the doctrine. This work is available free, online, at the Ellen White Estate web site. Chapter 28 "Facing Life's Record" can be found here:

http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc28.html

This is not a formal debate as such but I posted it here because the general feeling is that it should be a focused conversation between limited parties. Red has a couple of previously designated people to assist him.

There is no formal structure on rebuttals, number of posts etc. If for some reason this format is not acceptable to the mods please let us know and we will find a suitable place to have the conversation.

The main focus of this dialogue is to look at my objections to EGW’s presentation, and the traditional understanding of the Adventist church on the sanctuary doctrine. This doctrine is unique to Seventh-day Adventists, and therefore it might be best to agree on what constitutes this judgment before going any further.

Therefore I will give my summary of the Adventist IJ doctrine, utilizing quotes from EGW, as they are a recognized source of truth in the Adventist church. Other quotes from church literature may be used as well. Red, etc. can then discuss any areas of disagreement on what constitutes the basic teaching before moving on to my objections.


The believers who would eventually found the Seventh-day Adventist Church were members of the Millerite movement. Based on the calculations of William Miller they believed that Jesus would come about the time of 1843. This was later revised to October 22, 1844, to correspond to the date of the Day of Atonement for that year. They believed at that time that Jesus would come to cleanse the temple, which they believed to be the earth. One of the prophecies used to support this was the 2300 evening/mornings of Daniel 8:14.


I saw that God was in the proclamation of the time in 1843. It was His design to arouse the people and bring them to a testing point, where they should decide for or against the truth. {EW 232.2}

Thousands were led to embrace the truth preached by William Miller, and servants of God were raised up in the spirit and power of Elijah to proclaim the message. {EW 233.1}

The hand of the Lord was removed from the figures, and the mistake was explained. They saw that the prophetic periods reached to 1844, and that the same evidence which they had presented to show that the prophetic periods closed in 1843, proved that they would terminate in 1844. Light from the Word of God shone upon their position, and they discovered a tarrying time--"Though it [the vision] tarry, wait for it." In their love for Christ's immediate coming, they had overlooked the tarrying of the vision, which was calculated to manifest the true waiting ones. Again they had a point of time. Yet I saw that many of them could not rise above their severe disappointment to possess that degree of zeal and energy which had marked their faith in 1843. {EW 236.1}



At the passing of the designated day the Advent believers were disappointed. Some still saw merit to the calculations of Miller, and believed that God had been behind the movement.

Eventually they adopted the view of Hiram Edson, as studied out by Crosier. This held that the sanctuary to be cleansed was not the earth but the sanctuary in heaven, as referenced in Hebrews. Jesus then in 1844 did not come to earth but went into the heavenly most holy place. Later the view was adopted that Jesus was carrying on a work of judgment in the second apartment of the heavenly sanctuary.

Jesus did not come to the earth as the waiting, joyful company expected, to cleanse the sanctuary by purifying the earth by fire. I saw that they were correct in their reckoning of the prophetic periods; prophetic time closed in 1844, and Jesus entered the most holy place to cleanse the sanctuary at the ending of the days. Their mistake consisted in not understanding what the sanctuary was and the nature of its cleansing. {EW 243.2}



This pre-advent, investigative judgment reviewed the cases of all those who were professed people of God. It did not involve those who made no profession of God.

In the typical service only those who had come before God with confession and repentance, and whose sins, through the blood of the sin offering, were transferred to the sanctuary, had a part in the service of the Day of Atonement. So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period. GC, chapter 28.



This work of judgment commenced in 1844 and continues until each name has been brought into review.

As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance. The Lord declared to Moses: "Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book." Exodus 32:33. And says the prophet Ezekiel: "When the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, . . . all his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned." Ezekiel 18:24. GC, chapter 28


"And, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away." Daniel 7:13, 14. The coming of Christ here described is not His second coming to the earth. He comes to the Ancient of Days in heaven to receive dominion and glory and a kingdom, which will be given Him at the close of His work as a mediator. It is this coming, and not His second advent to the earth, that was foretold in prophecy to take place at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844. Attended by heavenly angels, our great High Priest enters the holy of holies and there appears in the presence of God to engage in the last acts of His ministration in behalf of man--to perform the work of investigative judgment and to make an atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits.
GC, chapter 28.

Those who have confessed each sin will have their sins blotted out of the books of remembrance and their name retained in the Lamb’s book of life.

All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life. The Lord declares, by the prophet Isaiah: "I, even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." Isaiah 43:25. Said Jesus: "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels." "Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven." Revelation 3:5; Matthew 10:32, 33. GC, chapter 28

This cleansing of the books of heaven is the cleansing spoken of in the Day of Atonement type.

In the typical service only those who had come before God with confession and repentance, and whose sins, through the blood of the sin offering, were transferred to the sanctuary, had a part in the service of the Day of Atonement. So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. GC , chapter 28

At the conclusion of the judgment Christ will exit the sanctuary, as the high priest exited the sanctuary, and shall come to receive the saints to Himself.

In the typical service the high priest, having made the atonement for Israel, came forth and blessed the congregation. So Christ, at the close of His work as mediator, will appear, "without sin unto salvation" (Hebrews 9:28), to bless His waiting people with eternal life. GC, chapter 28.

These are the essential parts. There are many more nuances. But this should suffice for our discussion.

The official fundamental belief of Seventh-day Adventists reads as follows:

24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:
There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)

Thank you to Reddogs and associates for your participation in this discussion.

[reddogs]

Jack and James if you can validate the summary of the Adventist IJ doctrine as presented by Tall, and post your affirmation of such, or if needed, post any areas of disagreement on what constitutes the basic teaching that Tall has put above, before we move on to Talls presentation of his objections.

Then Jack if you could then make your presentation and James you can make a presentation also, we then can then proceed with whatever questions, explanation, documentation, and outline of understanding, etc.. in a freeform style until everyone agrees all the points have been presented.

Sarah if you can do us the favor and oversee the discussion and can act as judge/arbirtrator to make sure all has proceeded in a Christ-like and proper manner, and can also ask for clarification or your own questions or post your views at any point. I had planned to have a back and forth discussion on New Years Day at 6:00pm EST, so can everyone post if they can make it and we shall see if everyone can be online for a open discussion and to see if everything has been covered or if further questions, documentation, or related issues need to be covered.

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

Jack and James if you can validate the summary of the Adventist IJ doctrine as presented by Tall, and post your affirmation of such, or if needed, post any areas of disagreement on what constitutes the basic teaching that Tall has put above, before we move on to Talls presentation of his objections.

Then Jack if you could then make your presentation and James you can make a presentation also, we then can then proceed with whatever questions, explanation, documentation, and outline of understanding, etc.. in a freeform style until everyone agrees all the points have been presented.

Sarah if you can do us the favor and oversee the discussion and can act as judge/arbirtrator to make sure all has proceeded in a Christ-like and proper manner, and can also ask for clarification or your own questions or post your views at any point. I had planned to have a back and forth discussion on New Years Day at 6:00pm EST, so can everyone post if they can make it and we shall see if everyone can be online for a open discussion and to see if everything has been covered or if further questions, documentation, or related issues need to be covered.

Sounds good, Red. :) I'll try and devote some time to being here and seeing things through, although I'm sure it'll go over fine. Should certainly prove to be a good lesson for me in this subject! I've done some of the Sabbath School lessons on this but I'm kinda rusty.

Regardless, I'll try to leave my questions till last so they don't overcrowd this. ;)

Sounds good what Tall wrote so far, very thorough. Looking forward to reading the other replies.

Oh, and 6pm EST should work for me assuming nothing comes up from now till then.

Good luck and God bless, guys. Here's a little prayer to start us off with.

Dear Heavenly Father, I ask that your Spirit guide us as we study this subject. May Your Truth shine through and may we have open eyes and hearts to hear it! Let this be a way we may grow closer to you.

In Jesus' name, Amen.

Blessings and Love,
Sarah

[reddogs]

This is a conversation that was conceived of in the Adventist section. It is a discussion of the Adventist sanctuary doctrine and my objections to it. Portions of the 28th chapter of Ellen White's book "The Great Controversy" will be examined as they are generally recognized by both parties to represent the traditional Adventist view of the doctrine. This work is available free, online, at the Ellen White Estate web site. Chapter 28 "Facing Life's Record" can be found here:

http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc28.html

This is not a formal debate as such but I posted it here because the general feeling is that it should be a focused conversation between limited parties. Red has a couple of previously designated people to assist him.

There is no formal structure on rebuttals, number of posts etc. If for some reason this format is not acceptable to the mods please let us know and we will find a suitable place to have the conversation.

The main focus of this dialogue is to look at my objections to EGW’s presentation, and the traditional understanding of the Adventist church on the sanctuary doctrine. This doctrine is unique to Seventh-day Adventists, and therefore it might be best to agree on what constitutes this judgment before going any further.

Therefore I will give my summary of the Adventist IJ doctrine, utilizing quotes from EGW, as they are a recognized source of truth in the Adventist church. Other quotes from church literature may be used as well. Red, etc. can then discuss any areas of disagreement on what constitutes the basic teaching before moving on to my objections.


The believers who would eventually found the Seventh-day Adventist Church were members of the Millerite movement. Based on the calculations of William Miller they believed that Jesus would come about the time of 1843. This was later revised to October 22, 1844, to correspond to the date of the Day of Atonement for that year. They believed at that time that Jesus would come to cleanse the temple, which they believed to be the earth. One of the prophecies used to support this was the 2300 evening/mornings of Daniel 8:14.


I saw that God was in the proclamation of the time in 1843. It was His design to arouse the people and bring them to a testing point, where they should decide for or against the truth. {EW 232.2}

Thousands were led to embrace the truth preached by William Miller, and servants of God were raised up in the spirit and power of Elijah to proclaim the message. {EW 233.1}

The hand of the Lord was removed from the figures, and the mistake was explained. They saw that the prophetic periods reached to 1844, and that the same evidence which they had presented to show that the prophetic periods closed in 1843, proved that they would terminate in 1844. Light from the Word of God shone upon their position, and they discovered a tarrying time--"Though it [the vision] tarry, wait for it." In their love for Christ's immediate coming, they had overlooked the tarrying of the vision, which was calculated to manifest the true waiting ones. Again they had a point of time. Yet I saw that many of them could not rise above their severe disappointment to possess that degree of zeal and energy which had marked their faith in 1843. {EW 236.1}



At the passing of the designated day the Advent believers were disappointed. Some still saw merit to the calculations of Miller, and believed that God had been behind the movement.

Eventually they adopted the view of Hiram Edson, as studied out by Crosier. This held that the sanctuary to be cleansed was not the earth but the sanctuary in heaven, as referenced in Hebrews. Jesus then in 1844 did not come to earth but went into the heavenly most holy place. Later the view was adopted that Jesus was carrying on a work of judgment in the second apartment of the heavenly sanctuary.

Jesus did not come to the earth as the waiting, joyful company expected, to cleanse the sanctuary by purifying the earth by fire. I saw that they were correct in their reckoning of the prophetic periods; prophetic time closed in 1844, and Jesus entered the most holy place to cleanse the sanctuary at the ending of the days. Their mistake consisted in not understanding what the sanctuary was and the nature of its cleansing. {EW 243.2}



This pre-advent, investigative judgment reviewed the cases of all those who were professed people of God. It did not involve those who made no profession of God.

In the typical service only those who had come before God with confession and repentance, and whose sins, through the blood of the sin offering, were transferred to the sanctuary, had a part in the service of the Day of Atonement. So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period. GC, chapter 28.



This work of judgment commenced in 1844 and continues until each name has been brought into review.

As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance. The Lord declared to Moses: "Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book." Exodus 32:33. And says the prophet Ezekiel: "When the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, . . . all his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned." Ezekiel 18:24. GC, chapter 28


"And, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away." Daniel 7:13, 14. The coming of Christ here described is not His second coming to the earth. He comes to the Ancient of Days in heaven to receive dominion and glory and a kingdom, which will be given Him at the close of His work as a mediator. It is this coming, and not His second advent to the earth, that was foretold in prophecy to take place at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844. Attended by heavenly angels, our great High Priest enters the holy of holies and there appears in the presence of God to engage in the last acts of His ministration in behalf of man--to perform the work of investigative judgment and to make an atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits.
GC, chapter 28.

Those who have confessed each sin will have their sins blotted out of the books of remembrance and their name retained in the Lamb’s book of life.

All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life. The Lord declares, by the prophet Isaiah: "I, even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." Isaiah 43:25. Said Jesus: "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels." "Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven." Revelation 3:5; Matthew 10:32, 33. GC, chapter 28

This cleansing of the books of heaven is the cleansing spoken of in the Day of Atonement type.

In the typical service only those who had come before God with confession and repentance, and whose sins, through the blood of the sin offering, were transferred to the sanctuary, had a part in the service of the Day of Atonement. So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. GC , chapter 28

At the conclusion of the judgment Christ will exit the sanctuary, as the high priest exited the sanctuary, and shall come to receive the saints to Himself.

In the typical service the high priest, having made the atonement for Israel, came forth and blessed the congregation. So Christ, at the close of His work as mediator, will appear, "without sin unto salvation" (Hebrews 9:28), to bless His waiting people with eternal life. GC, chapter 28.

These are the essential parts. There are many more nuances. But this should suffice for our discussion.

The official fundamental belief of Seventh-day Adventists reads as follows:

24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:
There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)

Thank you to Reddogs and associates for your participation in this discussion.

This looks correct in its presentation of the of the Adventist sanctuary doctrine, Jack and James will put their comments in a few minutes. So Tall, as soon as James post, if you could post and outline your objections so we can view it over the day, and then tonight everyone should be online at 6:00pm EST to discuss them.

[reddogs]

Bad News: since this is a debate area which requires a minimum of 100 posts, neither James or Jack can post here. I am afraid we will be forced to move this thread to the Trad area and ask that everyone else please not enter into the discussion till we are done, unless a way can quickly be found around this. Go ahead and put your objections Tall and affirm whether we can move this to the Trad section and work out the rest as to whether to leave it there at the conclusion.

If this is acceptable, Sarah can you move the thread to the Traditional Seventh-day Adventists (http://christianforums.com/f568-traditional-seventh-day-adventists.html) sub-forum and ask everyone to hold off going into the thread till we are done with the discussion....

[tall73]

Red, as I discussed with you previously I will be moving to a new house soon and therefore will not be on tonight.

[tall73]

Since I will be without internet for a time I am going to just outline my basic objection now. There are a number of issues in Daniel, Revelation, Leviticus, etc. that have been raised historically with the Adventists sanctuary doctrine. While I think that many of the points are good ones I only want to focus on what for me is the biggest issue.



EGW points to the IJ as the fulfillment of the day of atonement type of the cleansing of the sanctuary. However, the author of Hebrews, in my estimation, indicates that this occurred, or at the very least began, before his time.

The question comes down to two things:

A. What was the type?
B. What does the NT say about the fulfillment of the type.

[tall73]

Books or Blood?

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4416/booksbloodid9.jpg (http://imageshack.us/)


Adventists say that the Investigative Judgment is the cleansing of the heavenly record books. They see this as the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement type of cleansing the sanctuary by blood in Leviticus 16.

But was the type about books? Or was the type about blood?


Lev 16:12 And he shall take a censer full of coals of fire from the altar before the LORD, and two handfuls of sweet incense beaten small, and he shall bring it inside the veil
Lev 16:13 and put the incense on the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is over the testimony, so that he does not die.
Lev 16:14 And he shall take some of the blood of the bull and sprinkle it with his finger on the front of the mercy seat on the east side, and in front of the mercy seat he shall sprinkle some of the blood with his finger seven times.
Lev 16:15 "Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.
Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.
Lev 16:18 Then he shall go out to the altar that is before the LORD and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and some of the blood of the goat, and put it on the horns of the altar all around.
Lev 16:19 And he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it and consecrate it from the uncleannesses of the people of Israel.

There is no description of examination in the type itself. There are no books, and the high priest does not examine the sanctuary or even the blood previously brought there. He cleanses the sanctuary by an application of blood in God's presence.

There was a presentation of blood in the presence of God, in the Most Holy Place, where the blood was brought right to the ark where God dwelt, and in which was contained the law, the mercy seat, etc. Cleansing was made for the holy things.

Hebrews spells out just such a fulfillment:

Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Jesus fulfilled the type at His ascension.

Note also this text, in close proximity:

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.


The true fulfillment of the type was already spelled out. Jesus our High Priest entered into God's presence by means of His own blood (contrasted with the earthly high priest who brought the blood of animals). He did this once for all ( in contrast with the earthly high priest who did so yearly. )

This was done due to the necessity of cleansing the heavenly things.

[tall73]

Here is a more detailed description of my view:

Jesus fulfilled the portion of the day of atonement service relating to the cleansing by application of blood.

The New Testament does not ever spell out the fulfillment of the azazel, and so we are left to inference from the type. Therefore I do not make any conclusions on the azazel. But the author makes it clear that He DID complete the once for all sacrifice—EVERY sacrifice in the OT type. That would include the Day of Atonement sacrifice. And then the text also presents a picture of Jesus presenting that blood in God's presence, entering by means of His blood, in day of atonement language.

The text shows that Jesus was the fulfillment of ALL the sacrifices. Specifically referenced are the red heifer, the daily, the inauguration, and the day of atonement.

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/7214/sacrificefm8.png (http://imageshack.us/)

I am going to focus only on those portions that make reference to the day of atonement, but only because it is the issue we are looking at here today.


Hebrews 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Hebrews 9:12 He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.


This phrase is parallel to the earlier one in 9:7 which showed the earthly high priest entering into the most holy place.

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

Jesus entered by means of the blood. Blood was required to go into the Most Holy Place, into God's presence under the old covenant. Here Jesus is contrasted with the earthly high priest, not taking in limited animal sacrifice but entering by means of his own blood. This then involves not only the sacrifice but the blood of the sacrifice presented before God. It is using day of atonement language. And this entering by means of blood is in the past tense FROM THE AUTHOR'S TIME, indicated by εἰσῆλθεν in the aorist.

Note also that the whole reason the author raised the high point of the Jewish year, the Day of Atonement, in verse 7 was so that he could show how Jesus completed that part of the type. This is always the burden of the author of Hebrews, to spell out how Jesus was better than the levitical priests, better than Moses, better than angels, etc.


Then again in Heb. 9:23-26 reference is made to the Day of Atonement type.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Jesus:

1. Entered (earlier said to be once for all and with blood)
2. in the presence of God, parallel to the Day of Atonement
3. High Priest, who had a distinctive role on the Day of Atonement
4. Once for all, contrasted with every year, reference to the yearly role
5. With His own blood which refers back direcly to verse 7 again: Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.
6. Put away sin.
7. Was the provision for the cleansing of the heavenly things.

Here Jesus is directly compared to the yearly offering. He entered in by means of His own blood into God's presence.

So here we see comparison to the high priest, yearly service involving blood in which the high priest entered into God's presence to cleanse the sanctuary. This is unmistakably a reference to the day of atonement. Our own scholars have recognized the fact:

Here are quotes from several of the contributors to the Daniel and Revelation Committee series:

William Johnsson in "Day of Atonement Allusions". He lists 9:24, etc. as a passage among those that clearly allude to the day of atonement.

The context clearly points to a Day of Atonement allusion (high priest...yearly...blood [cf. 9:7]

Here he is again on 10:1-4

The specifications of "year after year" and "blood of bulls and goats" again indicate a Day of Atonement setting.

He then lists 8 other possible allusions which might point to the Day of Atonement.

Here is Alwyn Salom in his appendix article in the Daniel and Revelation committee series verse 12:

The characteristic service of the Day of Atonement here referred to (cf. vs 7), was located in the inner compartment of the earthly sanctuary.

And on 24:

The reference in the context of the Day of Atonement service of the earthly high priest is not to the outer compartment of the sanctuary.


Richard Davidson, notes that vs. 25 is an unmistakable reference to the day of atonement, though he tries to show that it is a reference to the future. But as will be seen later, that is not what the text states.

I agree with Young that Hebrews 9:7 and 9:25 refer to Day of Atonement, because of the clear references to “once a year” and “every year” respectively.
Inauguration or Day of Atonement? Andrews University Seminary Studies, Spring 2002, pg. 79


So, now that we have looked at the Day of Atonement imagery, what is the timing of these events? What is the timing of Jesus' entry?

Verse 23 is in fact ambiguous as some of our scholars have pointed out.

Heb 9:23 ᾿Ανάγκη οὖν τὰ μὲν υποδείγματα των εν τοις ουρανοις τούτοις καθαρίζεσθαι, αυτὰ δὲ τὰ επουράνια κρείττοσιν θυσίαις παρὰ ταύτας.



καθαριζω (To cleanse) is in the infinitive. The main verb is an assumed “be” verb. The point of the argument doesn’t really require timing. It is arguing that the type requires fulfillment—things must be cleansed with blood. In the OT type the earthly was cleansed with blood. Therefore the heavenly things must be cleansed.

However, the next verse does not indicate a future action and explains the cleansing.


Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Verse 24 continues the argument of the preceding section. This is picked up in the English “for”. He is now showing HOW the cleansing occurred, arguing that everything is cleansed with blood, and so was the heavenly. The English "for" is the translation of γαρ.

Jesus went into the true tabernacle, heaven itself, and appeared in God’s presence. This is parallel to the entrance of the high priest into God’s presence once per year. The ENTERED in this case is again past tense, εἰσῆλθεν. This then orients the timing of the entering with blood, and associated activities.

Verses 26 again use past tense references.

Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

He has appeared to put away sin. The reference is not only to the sacrifice but to the offering of it and the entrance, listed above. The term is in the perfect tense, which indicates past action with continuing results.

The historical acts of Jesus of the sacrifice, ascension, entering into God's presence, etc. are referenced as the fulfillment of the day of atonement type of cleansing. Therefore, there is no need for a cleansing in 1844.


Heb 10:11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
Heb 10:13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.

Next we will look at the results of this ministration:


Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 10:11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God
Heb 10:13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.
Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Another passage in Hebrews spells it out clearly:

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Jesus made purification for sins. That was the purpose of the day of atonement type. The word here "purification" καθαρισμὸν is derived from the same root as the "cleansing" of the heavenly things of 9:23.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.


The results were “eternal redemption”, “put away sin”, “take away sin” (argued by way of contrast), “sacrifice for sin”, “perfected for all time” and "making purification for sins."

This was the fulfillment of the type of cleansing.

To me the fulfillment of the type that Jesus made was FAR more similar to the Leviticus description than the one pictured by EGW. This fulfillment is spelled out in the NT text. Clearly the idea that Jesus did not start to fulfill the Day of Atonement imagery until 1844 fails to take into account the information in the book of Hebrews.

[tall73]

Bad News: since this is a debate area which requires a minimum of 100 posts, neither James or Jack can post here. I am afraid we will be forced to move this thread to the Trad area and ask that everyone else please not enter into the discussion till we are done, unless a way can quickly be found around this. Go ahead and put your objections Tall and affirm whether we can move this to the Trad section and work out the rest as to whether to leave it there at the conclusion.

If this is acceptable, Sarah can you move the thread to the Traditional Seventh-day Adventists (http://christianforums.com/f568-traditional-seventh-day-adventists.html) sub-forum and ask everyone to hold off going into the thread till we are done with the discussion....

The trad area is a non-debate area. Therefore I will not be debating there. Another reason for not having it in the Adventist section is that I did not want it to be said that I was trying to draw away converts.

We need a place where a limited group can discuss. If necessary that may be my forum or Crimson's. But it is certainly NOT the traditional section as I can't even post my view here.

As I referenced in my pm I will be gone for a bit because I am moving to a new house, and will not have internet. I guess we will have to work this out when I get back.

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

The trad area is a non-debate area. Therefore I will not be debating there. Another reason for not having it in the Adventist section is that I did not want it to be said that I was trying to draw away converts.

We need a place where a limited group can discuss. If necessary that may be my forum or Crimson's. But it is certainly NOT the traditional section as I can't even post my view here.

As I referenced in my pm I will be gone for a bit because I am moving to a new house, and will not have internet. I guess we will have to work this out when I get back.
I couldn't have moved it to the Trad forum anyway, as I'm not a mod over this forum. :) (Granted, I doubt they'd complain but still)

Tall has a good point, though. We can't debate it in the Trad area. I doubt we can trust limited discussion in D&D either. If you guys want to use my forum I'll PM you the address. Membership is not required unless you feel like it, so your friends can post without joining up Red. :) It's litterally dead over there and only a few people even know it exists anyway.

[reddogs]

Well lets do it this way...Jack and James will read Tall's objections here in the formal debate forum and post their answers at the trad area in the Preparation for Great Controversy issues, Chapter 28 (http://christianforums.com/t6642889-preparation-for-great-controversy-issues-chapter-28.html) , so technically Tall is not debating in the Trad area. Everyone will be able to see Jack and James answers in the trad area, and I will copy and paste their answer(s) back here to this formal debate thread and Jack and James can verify it and let me know if any questions/adjustments......

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

Sounds fine to me, then. :) Whatever works. I have to get off to go eat, so I'll be gone for awhile. Will try to get back tonight. Have fun guys!

[DeaconDean]

To all concerned:

I have just now became aware that a new thread of debating has been started.

I would like to take the time to remind you that Erwins old rules, and the new rules:

http://christianforums.com/t6534470-rules-and-guildelines-for-debating.html

Since this technically does not fall under the realm of traditional formal debtes, if you would like, I will let this thread/debate continue as is with the proviso that all the general rules be observed, no name calling etc., and since this thread was started 12/30/07, according to the rules, it will be closed on 1/30/08.

Now if the discussion should have to take longer, just ask and I will consider letting it go a bit longer.

I do not want to interfere in any way. I just ask that this be done in a "Christian" manner.

Is this ok with you?

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Sophia7]

Deacon Dean, that sounds fine. Thank you for letting us continue, despite the fact that this differs a bit from the usual formal debate.

God bless,

Tall.


EDIT: oops...we just moved to a new place and I had only set up the one computer. I forgot to log out the wifey. Sorry about that.

[DeaconDean]

Deacon Dean, that sounds fine. Thank you for letting us continue, despite the fact that this differs a bit from the usual formal debate.

God bless,

Tall.

You are quite welcome. And if there is any other way I can of service:

http://wesclark.com/ubn/lauren_bacall.jpg

Just whistle, you know how to do that don't you? You just put your lips together and blow.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[DeaconDean]

Ok ladies and Gentlemen, it is Jan. 31st. There has been no further discussion in this thread, so I'll assume this topic is "dead."

I am leaving work for my week-end, I intend to leave this open until I return to work on 2/2/08.

Unless you ask for it to remain open, I will be closing this thread.

You have until 2/2/08 @ 10:30pm EST to come to a decision.

Thanks guys.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[tall73]

From what I gathered the folks discussing the other side came to the realization that this was going to take more time than they had planned.

I think you can close it.

[DeaconDean]

No problem, I just wanted to make sure.

Anytime you want to do this again, just gimme a heads up.

God Bless

Till all are one.