Two questions on Angels

[Lupinus]

Two interesting questions arose recently, which I didn't quiet have an answer for. Certainly not scriptural as I'm horrible at recalling specific verses.

First, the issue of prayer to saints is frequently hashed out. However, I rarely see the same discussion in regards to Angels. So, what about prayer to Angels? We can say prayer to the saints is wrong as God forbids us from communicating with the dead. However, is the same true for other heavenly beings such as Angels?

Also, what about guardian Angels? There is some scripture to suggest God employees Angels to watch over or lead people at times, but could this be applied to the same level some would consider a Guardian Angel?

[HephzibahBenJudah]

First, the issue of prayer to saints is frequently hashed out.
However, I rarely see the same discussion in regards to Angels.
So, what about prayer to Angels? We can say prayer to the saints
is wrong as God forbids us from communicating with the dead.
However, is the same true for other heavenly beings such as Angels?

Exd 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
We don't pray to angels we pray to God Himself.
Also, what about guardian Angels? There is some scripture to suggest
God employees Angels to watch over or lead people at times,
but could this be applied to the same level some would consider a
Guardian Angel?
Psa 91:11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Luk 4:10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones;
for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold
the face of my Father which is in heaven.
Point being they are Gods' angels and He sends them to do His will.

[Jim47]

Angels are ministering spirits. Of themselves they have no power, only that which is given them by The Lord. Neither are we to pray to them or worship them.

We should follow Jesus and how He prayed. He always prayed to His Father and taught us the same. The Lord's prayer is a model prayer and is addressed to our Father. No where in scripture are we instructed to pray to anyone other then God.

[IowaLutheran]

First, the issue of prayer to saints is frequently hashed out. However, I rarely see the same discussion in regards to Angels. So, what about prayer to Angels? We can say prayer to the saints is wrong as God forbids us from communicating with the dead. However, is the same true for other heavenly beings such as Angels?



Pray to, as in "St. Michael, please deliver me from my illness" or something like that? I would say no, and would agree with the other comments that God is the one who our prayers should be addressed to.

The statements about communication with the dead would not seem to apply, as Scripture contains passages where there is communication between angels and humans. The Annunciation to Mary would be the most famous one of course, but I don't really consider that "prayer".

[Edial]

...First, the issue of prayer to saints is frequently hashed out. However, I rarely see the same discussion in regards to Angels. So, what about prayer to Angels? We can say prayer to the saints is wrong as God forbids us from communicating with the dead. However, is the same true for other heavenly beings such as Angels?
Angels are God's perfect soldiers.
They do what God says and care VERY little about anything else.

Praying to angels is useless.

Also, if you do get "an answer" after praying to an angel, it is not from God nor from that angel.

...Also, what about guardian Angels? There is some scripture to suggest God employees Angels to watch over or lead people at times, but could this be applied to the same level some would consider a Guardian Angel?
It is also useless to pray to a guardian angel.

We often have an idea that a guardial angel just follows us throughout our life and protects us from speeding cars. :)
So we might as well communicate with him.
It is not like that.

Take a loot at this text concerning the Guardian Angels.

MT 18:10 "See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.


Angels are not looking at us, but at the face of God.
If protection is warranted, God tells them to get there and they immadiately accomplish that what God told them to do.

God is the recipient of all prayers.
Angels do play a role in presenting some prayers to God.

REV 8:3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel's hand.

However, and this is a big HOWEVER, :), these prayers are addressed to God and not angels.

Thanks, :)
Ed

[Lupinus]

thanks guys and gals :wave:

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I too agree that we should not pray to angels, but there is nothing wrong with asking God to send his angels to help and protect us.
:angel:
"Let thy holy angel be with me, that the wicked Foe may have no power over me. Amen." Luthers morning prayer. (evening one too).

[KimLCMS]

I too agree that we should not pray to angels, but there is nothing wrong with asking God to send his angels to help and protect us.
:angel:
"Let thy holy angel be with me, that the wicked Foe may have no power over me. Amen." Luthers morning prayer. (evening one too).
You said it before I could!
I have prayed for God to send angels to protect me and my family during some trying times. Praying to an angel wouldn't do any good. They do the Lord's bidding, not ours.

[vle045]

This brings up a question for me.

What is the point of a Saint? And is it just the Catholic Church that "dubs" someone a saint?

Is it simply just a way to say, "hey, this guy was a good person and lived a good life."?

I don't really understand the whole point or process.

I also noticed when I was in a (Catholic?) Religious goods store, there was a saint for EVERYTHING... and I do mean EVERYTHING. Swimmers, golfers, teachers, policemen, sick, young, old.... you name it, there's a Saint for it. I don't understand the reason.

Oh and I thought that all those who are in heaven then become angels... so if that were the case, wouldn't Angels and Saints be synonomous?

I certainly have no idea.

[MarkRohfrietsch]

This brings up a question for me.

What is the point of a Saint? And is it just the Catholic Church that "dubs" someone a saint?

Is it simply just a way to say, "hey, this guy was a good person and lived a good life."?

I don't really understand the whole point or process.

I also noticed when I was in a (Catholic?) Religious goods store, there was a saint for EVERYTHING... and I do mean EVERYTHING. Swimmers, golfers, teachers, policemen, sick, young, old.... you name it, there's a Saint for it. I don't understand the reason.

Oh and I thought that all those who are in heaven then become angels... so if that were the case, wouldn't Angels and Saints be synonomous?

I certainly have no idea.

In the Lutheran Church we commemorate, (not pray to or venerate) Saints as witnesses and examples of the living Gospel. In our new Lutheran Service Book we have a whole list of commemorations, not just the Apostles, but Fathers and Doctors of the Church, others from the old and new Testaments, the early Church, and some more recent such as Luther, Walther, Bach etc. remembered for their faithful service to the Lord and his Church. These faithful people are members of the "cloud of witness" that Scripture mentions.

Mark

[vle045]

Would the Saints in the Lutheran Church be completely different than those that the Catholic church canonized (or whatever they call it)??

[Jim47]

We are not saints by our own good works, qas no one is considered righteous except thru faith by grace that Jesus paid for their sins. The Catholis error in this, as think we need to live by our own good works to become a saint. All who are of faith and believe that Jesus is their Savior is a saint. The proper deffinition of someone living and is a saint, is someone who is being made holy. This is done by the gift of faith and is the work of The Holy Spirit.

If you would like some scripture verses I can look them up later, but you will find this written in the epistles. :preach:

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Would the Saints in the Lutheran Church be completely different than those that the Catholic church canonized (or whatever they call it)??

Many are the same, we do share the major feast and festival days with our Roman brothers and sisters. Some are different:; I doubt Rome would want to commemorate the likes of Luther, Bugenhagen, and others involved in the reformation. Many of their "newer"saints, were involved with the counter-reformation, which began after the Council of Trent (where they declared everyone not in communion with Rome heretics). So their newer ones aren't on our list. That being said, it would still be edifing to look to the likes of Mother Theresa as an example of Christian virtue.

Be mindful though that because they are on the list, does not mean that each and every congregation will remember them on their day. That is left up to the discretion and custom of the Congregation and Pastor.

To be honest, I'm not quite sure how this list was compiled, what the criteria were, and who decided, but I like it.... I feel a new question coming on.
:idea:

Mark

[RadMan]

If I can be a saint then anyone can that is Christian. Both saint and sinner. I know that's a stretch of the imagination.

[Nomenclature]

The messengers that visited people in the bible, told the people not to worship them, but I don't remember any of them saying that the people couldn't talk to them. I think it's ok to talk to an angel if you see one. I'm sorry for laughing, well you can't see me laughing but I am, hehe but not at the question. I was imagining seeing an angel and just standing there, mute, not speaking. I can't imagine doing that. I would be so overcome with excitement that I would burst if I couldn't speak. I think the first thing I would say is that I would ask the angel how awesome it must be to be in the presence of Jesus, and that I am so excited to meet him, Jesus, in person.
Anyway, I don't think there is anything in the bible against talking to angels unless we try to pray to them, like others said here. We shouldn't pray to anybody that we are told not to pray to, and the angels I think would not want to be prayed to either.

[Edial]

...
What is the point of a Saint? And is it just the Catholic Church that "dubs" someone a saint?

Is it simply just a way to say, "hey, this guy was a good person and lived a good life."?

I don't really understand the whole point or process.
A saint is ANY believer who believes in Christ as his/her Savior, saint vle045. :)

PHP 4:21 Greet all the saints in Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me send greetings. 22 All the saints send you greetings, especially those who belong to Caesar's household.

There are many verses like these above.
Saints are living believers.

The point of becoming a saint is that one is sanctified (made better) in Christ once he/she believed. Yet it is a lifelong process.

Saint and believer in Christ are synonymous.

I also noticed when I was in a (Catholic?) Religious goods store, there was a saint for EVERYTHING... and I do mean EVERYTHING. Swimmers, golfers, teachers, policemen, sick, young, old.... you name it, there's a Saint for it. I don't understand the reason.
If Jesus overturned the tables at the Temple when he saw the moneychangers making money "on God", he would probably do about the same thing ay such stores.
... Maybe not that specific store, but certainly at the one in Vatican. :)

No human could decide who is saint and who is not.
And no human could make one a Saint.
Sainthood was redefined by the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. They redefined it based on their own traditions, not the Scriptures.

Saints in these denominations are defined as ones who do exceptionally good works in this life.
Saints in the Bible are people in whom Christ is doing the good works in changing their lives.

Having stores full of figurines or pictures of saints is a natural perversion of Roman Catholics' redefinition of what saints are.

... A saint for golf. :)
I wonder what his score was ... :)

...Oh and I thought that all those who are in heaven then become angels... so if that were the case, wouldn't Angels and Saints be synonomous?

I certainly have no idea.
Saints and angels are two different creatures.

Saints are men and women (and children) who are believers in Christ.
In heaven they will have new bodies and become "like angeks:, yet not angels.

MT 22:30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

The book of the Revelation has plenty of references to angels and saints and each are separate individuals.

Thanks, :)
Ed

[DaRev]

... A saint for golf. :)
I wonder what his score was ... :)

18? :D

[Edial]

The messengers that visited people in the bible, told the people not to worship them, but I don't remember any of them saying that the people couldn't talk to them. I think it's ok to talk to an angel if you see one. I'm sorry for laughing, well you can't see me laughing but I am, hehe but not at the question. I was imagining seeing an angel and just standing there, mute, not speaking. I can't imagine doing that. I would be so overcome with excitement that I would burst if I couldn't speak. I think the first thing I would say is that I would ask the angel how awesome it must be to be in the presence of Jesus, and that I am so excited to meet him, Jesus, in person.
Anyway, I don't think there is anything in the bible against talking to angels unless we try to pray to them, like others said here. We shouldn't pray to anybody that we are told not to pray to, and the angels I think would not want to be prayed to either.
Actually it is interesting that whenever people in the Bible saw an angel in person, the angel started the conversation with: "Do not fear ...".
And when John saw Christ at Patmos, He said the same thing.

It looks to me that your initial impression was correct.
We would most probably be petrified with fear and remain mute.

It also reminds me of instances when some at the churches of other denominations routinely claim seeing angels standing in the back.

However, that's probably why they do not become visible in Luthran churches ... it is hard keeping them mute. :)

Thanks, :)
Ed

[DaRev]

It also reminds me of instances when some at the churches of other denominations routinely claim seeing angels standing in the back.

However, that's probably why they do not become visible in Luthran churches ... it is hard keeping them mute. :)

Thanks, :)
Ed

No, it's because there isn't room in the back of a Lutheran Church. ^_^

[Edial]

No, it's because there isn't room in the back of a Lutheran Church. ^_^
^_^ ^_^ ... yea, that's probably why.

By the way, what happened to your last week's sermon?
It is not posted.

[rockytrails]

one of my favorite books is all about angels good and bad


peoples bible teachings on
angels and demons

have wings will travel

available from concordia p h or Northwestern publishing house

you will like this book.

i could not put it down , till i read it all the way through.

it was very interesting.

have a peek at
http://online.nph.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?10418&productID=150605

[Edial]

one of my favorite books is about Jesus and his angels

peoples bible teachings on
angels and demons

have wings will travel

available fro cph or northwestern publishing house

you will like this book.

i could not put it down till iread it all the way through.

it was very interesting.
You read it all the way through in one sitting. Wow.
I forgot when I did this last.
It must be interesting.

I cannot find this at Amazon.com .
I looked under "Have wings will travel".

Is this the exact title?

Thanks,
Ed

[rockytrails]

YUP
read it all at one time . It was very interesting done in a very unusural way for doctrine on angels to be presented .
the title is

Angels and Demon's

have wings will travel


author IS

John d. schuetze


I think one can only get through Nph or concordia though.

[Aibrean]

Why not go to the source? Last time I checked, God is never to busy to listen to us (and he IS the direct line...why take a chance on the assistant's to deliver a message when we have the Boss's number?).

[MarkRohfrietsch]

No, it's because there isn't room in the back of a Lutheran Church. ^_^

Dear Pastor Rev,

It's out of Christian charity that we sit at the back. We MUST save the best seats for Visitors and Guests!^_^^_^^_^

Mark

[DaRev]

Dear Pastor Rev,

It's out of Christian charity that we sit at the back. We MUST save the best seats for Visitors and Guests!^_^^_^^_^

Mark

We had an ad hoc lesson on church architecture in seminary. In Wyneken Hall there were once two large lecture rooms that were later divided into three rooms. One had the door in the back of the room, one was near the center, and one was at the front. We kept watch in each of these rooms over a course of time and discovered that people tended to sit closer to the door.

The lesson learned was that if you want Lutherans to sit up front at church, put the entrance near the chancel. ^_^

[RadMan]

Answering the OP. I have some friends that are really angels. Does that count?

[Edial]

Why not go to the source? Last time I checked, God is never to busy to listen to us (and he IS the direct line...why take a chance on the assistant's to deliver a message when we have the Boss's number?).
... especially when the Boss told us to talk directly to Him. :)

[Edial]

Answering the OP. I have some friends that are really angels. Does that count?
... (takes a step back then asks in a very calm voice): "What do you mean by this, Rad?"

[RadMan]

... (takes a step back then asks in a very calm voice): "What do you mean by this, Rad?"LOL---wonderful people that are like angels. Didn't make that quite clear.

[Edial]

LOL---wonderful people that are like angels. Didn't make that quite clear.
Oh, absolutely ... (sigh of relief ... scratching him off tomorrow's prayer list).

[RadMan]

Oh, absolutely ... (sigh of relief ... scratching him off tomorrow's prayer list).HAHAHAHA :) Got a good belly laugh out of that.