Priests Scuffle Inside Bethlehem Church

[Protoevangel]

BETHLEHEM, West Bank (AP) — Robed Greek Orthodox and Armenian priests went at each other with brooms and stones inside the Church of the Nativity on Thursday as long-standing rivalries erupted in violence during holiday cleaning.
Story here (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5ik83OvDu7654J8zxifamQLDlHBPgD8TPPLI00).

:sigh: This whole situation needs our prayer. http://pwlrecruiters.com/images/OrthoPrayer.gif

Before you judge, please remember, we are all human (yes, even the priests, believe it or not).

Pray, don't judge.

[Nichole]

WOW! :crosseo:

[fuerein]

What's sad is this is hardly the first time I've heard of this happening. It happened several months ago as well, as I recall.

May all Christians learn self-constraint. No matter who deep the theological divisions between us, actions like these benefit no one. :crosseo:

[Khaleas]

Yes, they are human... and have probably one of the most difficult 'jobs'/callings in the world. They are in my prayers. I believe they have done this before (maybe not this bloody).
Time to jointly hire the Merry maids... male ones.

[Lukaris]

I do not know what to say but this sure is grist for the mill for radical Islamists or evengelical zealots (not most evnegelical Christians per se) who feel that the Orthodox are not even Christian. Are these the same mindsets that contributed to a century of chaos in Russia between Nikonites & Old Believers in the 17th century? Lord have mercy.

[Dorothea]

Ugh. That's not good. :( :crosseo:

[Saint Melania]

Priests brawling?? That's awful. :eek:

Sounds like a bar room fight, more than a church setting. Lord, have mercy! :crosseo:

[vanshan]

I cannot judge them, because I know I would do the same. It irks me that the heterodox are even allowed to control part of this holy site.

I recently read something written by Saint John Chrysostom, maybe on here, where he advised confronting heterodox persons in the street and if they persisted telling lies about God to strike them. Then if taken before judges regarding the incedent to tell them the the person you struck blasphemed God. Maybe there is an appropriate righteous anger we can feel, but it's hard to imagine when it could ever be righteous to act violently.

Basil

[HisKid1973]

Our Abba will disipline as He's sees fit...Glad our faith doesn't rely on mortals examples..shalom..Kim

[buzuxi02]

Actually this is common custom. I call it custom because it happens often and has been happening for decades. Each group guards its territory zealously.

[Yeznik]

I cannot judge them, because I know I would do the same. It irks me that the heterodox are even allowed to control part of this holy site.

I recently read something written by Saint John Chrysostom, maybe on here, where he advised confronting heterodox persons in the street and if they persisted telling lies about God to strike them. Then if taken before judges regarding the incedent to tell them the the person you struck blasphemed God. Maybe there is an appropriate righteous anger we can feel, but it's hard to imagine when it could ever be righteous to act violently.

Basil

I would really recommend reading the history between the Greeks and Armenians before making such a statement. Btw, the Greeks banished Saint John Chrysostom to Armenia due to his "attitude".

[JustinHesychast]

My first reaction? Laughter. I got the picture of these robed, long hair and bearded elderly monks brawling with brooms. It painted a funny picture.

Now that it's over, though. Ya, in my prayers. :(

[AJB4]

Oh...where are the pictures? :P

[rusmeister]

I cannot judge them, because I know I would do the same. It irks me that the heterodox are even allowed to control part of this holy site.

I recently read something written by Saint John Chrysostom, maybe on here, where he advised confronting heterodox persons in the street and if they persisted telling lies about God to strike them. Then if taken before judges regarding the incedent to tell them the the person you struck blasphemed God. Maybe there is an appropriate righteous anger we can feel, but it's hard to imagine when it could ever be righteous to act violently.

Basil

C.S. Lewis addresses this question in "Perelandra". He posits that there ARE righteous objects for our anger, even violence (the 'un-Man' in his story) when confronted with pure, unadulterated evil. That certainly doesn't seem to be a description of heterodox Christians, though!

It's possible that Chrysostom's statement should be taken in the context of his culture and time and not be taken to be Church dogma. AYP.

[Matrona]

I cannot judge them, because I know I would do the same. It irks me that the heterodox are even allowed to control part of this holy site.

:amen:

[Saint Melania]

Maybe they could do some arm wrestling... that would be what the Texans would do. ;)

[Forest]

The article says the Orthodox started it.

[Protoevangel]

Well. at least it was brooms and not knives or guns.

[vanshan]

The article says the Orthodox started it.

Maybe they misunderstood their intructions to "clean the temple." :sorry:

Although all men are living icons of Christ, and should be treated with the appropriate dignity in recognition of that reality, it's still okay to hate false gospels which lead men away from the Church. It's not that we hate the individuals who are in error, but we must struggle to, peacefully, as much as possible, put down these errors. That's what the Church Fathers struggled to do, now with God's mercy the aid of their prayers it's up to us to do the same. We should never compromise and allow anyone to think that the Oriental "Orthodox" non-calcedonians, or any other group is part of the Holy Orthodox faith. They are divided from it, but we do pray for their return. God does not desire the death of a sinner, but that they return to Him. We do not wish them harm, but dissentions and apostates need to be brought back into Christ's flock.

Basil

[Bessie]

Ok, but this wasn't about doctrine. Not really. I realize that doctrinal disagreements are why they have disputes in the first place, but the brawl started because someone's ladder encroached on the other's territory. I would hardly call cleaning the wrong spot a reason for "righteous anger"

[InTheCloud]

. It irks me that the heterodox are even allowed to control part of this holy site.
We should never compromise and allow anyone to think that the Oriental "Orthodox" non-calcedonians, or any other group is part of the Holy Orthodox faith. They are divided from it, but we do pray for their return. God does not desire the death of a sinner, but that they return to Him. We do not wish them harm, but dissentions and apostates need to be brought back into Christ's flock.

I think thats the sort of attude that started the troubles.

[vanshan]

.
I think thats the sort of attude that started the troubles.

Most likely, but God alone knows what was in their hearts. Lord have mercy on me, a sinner. :crosseo:


Basil

[JasonV]

So which ones are the heterodox, the Greeks or Armenians?

[copticorthodoxy]

Maybe they misunderstood their intructions to "clean the temple." :sorry:

Although all men are living icons of Christ, and should be treated with the appropriate dignity in recognition of that reality, it's still okay to hate false gospels which lead men away from the Church. It's not that we hate the individuals who are in error, but we must struggle to, peacefully, as much as possible, put down these errors. That's what the Church Fathers struggled to do, now with God's mercy the aid of their prayers it's up to us to do the same. We should never compromise and allow anyone to think that the Oriental "Orthodox" non-calcedonians, or any other group is part of the Holy Orthodox faith. They are divided from it, but we do pray for their return. God does not desire the death of a sinner, but that they return to Him. We do not wish them harm, but dissentions and apostates need to be brought back into Christ's flock.

Basil


i don't want to turn this thread into debate between the
OO and the EO .

But you should know that every side see itself as the true and only holy Orthodox church
so all the ancient churches have rights in the holy land churches and it is divided among them
Lord have mercy

[InTheCloud]

I think is correct that the EOC, the OOC and the RCC the three remains of the schism of the Early Apostolic Church share the Holy Sites.
I think that doctrinal disputes will eventually will be solved by the faithfull filling the churches.
And remember monks are human.
I think St John had more serious heresies to fight in his time. The doctrinal disagreement between the EOC, the OOC and the RCC were like tempest in a glass of water for him.

[Akathist]

St. John was before the EOC and RCC issues I thought.

Anyway, the monks may have had a legitimate reason for their actions. If they did not, then I am sure someone will be properly correcting them. They all have spiritual fathers and also hierarchs over them.

Monks live a very difficult path. They are fighting against spiritual battles that I myself would crumble under. I have a great deal of respect for anyone who is a monk and a new story like this does not phase that respect at all.

Unfortunately, it can for others. It can make our whole faith look bad. I think in that regard, at least one spiritual battle was lost to the enemy.

[vanshan]

i don't want to turn this thread into debate between the
OO and the EO .

But you should know that every side see itself as the true and only holy Orthodox church
so all the ancient churches have rights in the holy land churches and it is divided among them
Lord have mercy


I appreciate the patient tone of your post. We definitely should struggle to keep things respectful at all times. Our goal is the same. We have many similarities, but we are not united in one Body, which is obviously in opposition to the will of God. To unite in one faith, we must understand who is right and who is wrong regarding the nature of Christ. Our differences are more than differences in terminology, as some have alleged, but differences that get to the very core of our faith in Christ. I hope this centuries old division in one day reconciled.

Lord have mercy on us, and calm the dissentions between us. :crosseo:

Basil

[Rick of Wessex]

Btw, the Greeks banished Saint John Chrysostom to Armenia due to his "attitude".

Wrong. Empress Eudoxia schmed to have him exiled, against the will of the people.

The saintly hierarch denounced the dissolute morals of people in the capital, especially at the imperial court, irrespective of person. When the empress Eudoxia connived to confiscate the last properties of the widow and children of a disgraced dignitary, the saint rose to their defense. The arrogant empress would not relent, and nursed a grudge against the archpastor. Eudoxia's hatred of the saint blazed forth anew when malefactors told her that the saint apparently had her in mind during his sermon on vain women. A court was convened composed of hierarchs who had been justly condemned by Chrysostom: Theophilus of Alexandria, Bishop Severian of Gabala, who had been banished from the capital because of improprieties, and others.

This court of judgment declared St John deposed, and that he be executed for his insult to the empress. The emperor decided on exile instead of execution. An angry crowd gathered at the church, resolved to defend their pastor. In order to avoid a riot, St John submitted to the authorities. That very night there was an earthquake at Constantinople. The terrified Eudoxia urgently requested the emperor to bring the saint back, and promptly sent a letter to the banished pastor, beseeching him to return. Once more, in the capital church, the saint praised the Lord in a short talk, "For All His Ways."

The slanderers fled to Alexandria. But after only two months a new denunciation provoked the wrath of Eudoxia. In March 404, an unjust council was convened, decreeing the exile of St John. Upon his removal from the capital, a fire reduced the church of Hagia Sophia and also the Senate building to ashes. Devastating barbarian incursions soon followed, and Eudoxia died in October 404. Even pagans regarded these events as God's punishment for the unjust judgment against the saint.

In Armenia, the saint strove all the more to encourage his spiritual children. In numerous letters (245 are preserved) to bishops in Asia, Africa, Europe and particularly to his friends in Constantinople, St John consoled the suffering, guiding and giving support to his followers. In the winter of 406 St John was confined to his bed with sickness, but his enemies were not to be appeased. From the capital came orders to transfer St John to desolate Pityus in Abkhazia on the Black Sea. Worn out by sickness, the saint began his final journey under military escort, traveling for three months in the rain and frost. He never arrived at his place of exile, for his strength failed him at Comana. - excerpt from http://www.oca.org/FSlives.asp

And at that time (4th Century) Armenia was still an Orthodox land.

Rick