Holy Fire

[MoNiCa4316]

:wave: What do you all think of this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Fire
Have any of you ever witnessed it?

Also..what do you guys think about the 'criticisms' on the bottom of the page?



:)

[Jacob4707]

.

[MoNiCa4316]

I was ready to believe in it until I read those 'criticisms', and that made me doubt. hmm..

[Dorothea]

I've read a non-fiction book on it from a monk who witnessed it first hand - the Holy Light. As far as the fire not burning, what I've seen is what has been video taped that Mythodeos shared for us a few weeks back in one of your threads, Monica. I whole-heartedly believe in the Holy Light. No doubt whatsoever. :)

[Protoevangel]

The video's I saw of it had people moving their hands through the fire. I cam do the same thing with a camp fire without getting burned. I do hope there is more to it than that, though...

[JuvenalyMartinka]

There are two points of interest in reference to the Holy Fire. The more important one of which is the fact that the Holy Fire spontaneously appears in a place where there is no fire previously. There are no candles in the church before the appearance of the Holy Fire. How is this possible? Some say that there are candles and such hidden but the police search the entire church each year and none are found there.

I don't know how it happens, but then again, I do not know how the Nativity of Christ, nor the Miracles of Christ, nor the Resurrection of Christ occurred but I am not going to piece apart the Christian Faith just because it is not all clear to me.. that is where Faith is replaced by Reason and we see in other circles where that has led.

[Saint Melania]

I was ready to believe in it until I read those 'criticisms', and that made me doubt. hmm..
Do not doubt it, for it is real. Very real. Those criticisms help the doubters, and doesn't explain a thing.

[MariaRegina]

The video's I saw of it had people moving their hands through the fire. I cam do the same thing with a camp fire without getting burned. I do hope there is more to it than that, though...

You cannot place your face and hair into a normal flame without the hair getting burnt.

At our church, several altar boys lost some of their hair and an unholy scent pervaded the air when they got their face too close to the candles they were holding.

However, there is a video showing a nun waving the Holy Flame at her veil and hair with no burning noticed.

My godmother also witnessed the Holy Light, and she observed the same thing.

Furthermore, how do you explain the fact that the Holy Light (a blue light) literally jumped from one candle to the next -- sometimes jumping ten feet in the air? Could it be magnesium? Then all the candles would have to be examined for traces of Magnesium. And wouldn't there be explosions all around?

I remember the experiments with sodium in college and how the professor had to keep the sodium under oil. Any exposure to the water vapor in the air would cause an explosion. Too much sodium (more than the size of a small shriveled sweet pea) placed in the dish of water would cause a loud explosion too.

All my godmother could say was that the Holy Fire was a big distraction and a wonderful miracle. All eyes were on the Holy Light as it spread through the crowd, and it was a huge flame, not the little flame you see in the other churches.

If we had the same occurrence here in the USA, the fire fighters would be extremely concerned.

[Saint Melania]

The description of it is also in Acts.

[Jacob4707]

It's a peculiar phenomenon. I would like more proof, though.

Book 7 in the Foxfire series is on folk religion and backwoods Christianity and has photos of Appalachian Pentecostals drinking strychnine, handling rattlesnakes, and holding bunsen burner/acetylene torch flames to their heads, hair and hands without being burned.

[Kolya]

It's a peculiar phenomenon. I would like more proof, though.

Hi Jacob.

What proof do you need? Like the cracked pillar outside the church where the Fire came out the year the Orthodox Patriach was locked out? Or the footprint outside in the stone pavement where an Arab saw the Fire and jumped from the second story and was converted, and martyred because he believed?

Go well.

Kolya

[Lukaris]

Whatever the truth is, one truth is that the church of the Holy Sepulchre is genuine and that the apostolic churches maintain custodial rights. Clergy & seminarians of, or who have served, in our parish told us that chant is exchanged between monks & nuns of the Orthodox & other apostolic churches here when they visited this holy site(although cautiously & someone muted). Perhaps the hope of our Saviour that they may all be one (John 17:21) may be achieved in the Holy Spirit here and not in some fraudulent politburo like the WCC.

[Protoevangel]

However you cannot place your face and hair into a normal flame without the hair getting burnt.
Well, actually, you can, for very brief periods of time, such as what I've seen in the videos.

Furthermore, how do you explain the fact ...
I don't. I am not a skeptic, I believe it is possible (for all things are possible with God), and hope that it is true, it would be a wonderful testimony of God with us. It is just that what little I've seen does not suggest a miracle. I hope I see something more, I really do.



I don't know how it happens, but then again, I do not know how the Nativity of Christ, nor the Miracles of Christ, nor the Resurrection of Christ occurred but I am not going to piece apart the Christian Faith just because it is not all clear to me.. that is where Faith is replaced by Reason and we see in other circles where that has led.
The difference is, The Nativity, Miracles, Death and Resurrection of Christ are indeed subjects of Faith. If these are false, then my faith is for nothing. If the Holy Fire is not truly a miracle, that does not affect my Faith in any way, shape or form. I don't require "proof", because I want to believe. But if all I have seen so-far are things that I can do myself around a campfire, then I suppose I will keep my faith in Christ and the Church, and remain "undecided" about the Holy Fire.

[Jacob4707]

Hi Jacob.

What proof do you need? Like the cracked pillar outside the church where the Fire came out the year the Orthodox Patriach was locked out? Or the footprint outside in the stone pavement where an Arab saw the Fire and jumped from the second story and was converted, and martyred because he believed?

Go well.

Kolya

I don't know about any of those incidents. I don't know the reliability and verifiability of the accounts of those incidents. I haven't seen documentation of the veracity of those incidents. Can you provide all of the above?

Being in charismatic/non-denominational churches for many, many years, we heard stories and tales of all kinds of miraculous things, too.

[JasonV]

My former EO Priest visited and saw the holy light three years ago. He seemed to be throughly unimpressed, and didn't even want to discuss the event. He also added that it was of secondary importance in light of the other events going on.

[Kolya]

I don't know about any of those incidents. I don't know the reliability and verifiability of the accounts of those incidents. I haven't seen documentation of the veracity of those incidents. Can you provide all of the above?


The two examples I mentioned above are visible to this day. All you need to verify it is to take a trip to Jerusalem.


Being in charismatic/non-denominational churches for many, many years, we heard stories and tales of all kinds of miraculous things, too.

Of course you did. I was also there too once.
I believe our Lord admonished St Thomas that "Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe." We walk by faith, not by sight.

Kolya

[Kolya]

:wave: What do you all think of this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Fire
Have any of you ever witnessed it?

Also..what do you guys think about the 'criticisms' on the bottom of the page?
:)

I don't lay up too much confidence in Wikipedidia - it's run by folks who are not friendly to Christianity. That's my 2 bits worth anyhow.

[Jacob4707]

My former EO Priest visited and saw the holy light three years ago. He seemed to be throughly unimpressed, and didn't even want to discuss the event. He also added that it was of secondary importance in light of the other events going on.

Interesting.

[Jacob4707]

The two examples I mentioned above are visible to this day. All you need to verify it is to take a trip to Jerusalem.



Of course you did. I was also there too once.
I believe our Lord admonished St Thomas that "Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe." We walk by faith, not by sight.

Kolya

Going to Jerusalem and seeing a cracked pillar and a footprint in pavement doesn't prove that they occurred as claimed. I assume you've heard of this incident: http://www.evanwiggs.com/revival/history/penpulp.html. You can probably go to Houston and see the split pulpit, too.

Here's a whole slew of miracle events witnessed by large congregations: http://www.pastornet.net.au/renewal/journal14/14d%20Waugh.htm

[SeekingTheLight]

You know, obviously I have no idea about the Holy Light, but I have to admit that the videos on Youtube ARE very interesting.

[Dorothea]

My former EO Priest visited and saw the holy light three years ago. He seemed to be throughly unimpressed, and didn't even want to discuss the event. He also added that it was of secondary importance in light of the other events going on.
Hmmm, it was a pretty big deal to the monk there in the book I read. It's God (Holy Spirit) that blue light and that lights all those lights. When someone tried to put it out, it wouldn't go out. Of course not. You can't extinguish the Light of the World. Just what I got from it. It was quite a powerful book.

[Orthosdoxa]

:sigh:

I believe in the Holy Light.

I can't read this thread anymore. But I just wanted to say the above.

[JasonV]

I'm not saying the light is god or isn't god. I just shared what one EO priest thought of it all. It seemed more a spectacle to him than anything, and I'm not sure anyone should be basing their entire faith on this thing.

Frankly I've seen magicians do more impressive things than shoot a light around the room, so I wouldn't place my faith on it either.

[Mytheodos]

The Holy Fire!!
Observe at around 17seconds on this clip the ball of flame moving from left-center to right center above the crowd:bow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Cn49rhej7o

Must we see to believe like St Thomas?:(

[Protoevangel]

The Holy Fire!!
Observe at around 17seconds on this clip the ball of flame moving from left-center to right center above the crowd:bow:

Must we see to believe like St Thomas?:(
Honestly, it would be much easier for me to believe without everyone trying to "prove" it with all these videos. That just seems to give it a "Loch Ness / Bigfoot / UFO / Art Bell" appeal.

I read the lives of the Saints. I don't doubt what I read. I do not doubt "Holy Fire", but the videos and this apparent need to convince and prove...

Note to people who believe: I am not claiming it is false!!! All I am saying is that the video "evidence" has not been convincing for me.

[Dorothea]

I'm not saying the light is god or isn't god. I just shared what one EO priest thought of it all. It seemed more a spectacle to him than anything, and I'm not sure anyone should be basing their entire faith on this thing.

Frankly I've seen magicians do more impressive things than shoot a light around the room, so I wouldn't place my faith on it either.
I got the idea from the book that the blue light and the initial first lighting happens in an enclosed room, not out where other people can see it. I got the idea that it was well-protected, and that not everyone was allowed to go in. In fact, I thought only clergy could go in there....His tomb area? Trying to remember. I haven't read the book since we lived in Florida which was back between 2000 and 2003. And I want to add that this monk's book was out decades before the videos and stuff were taken.

[Saint Melania]

:sigh:

I believe in the Holy Light.

I can't read this thread anymore. But I just wanted to say the above.
I cannot read this thread anymore, either. :(

[buzuxi02]

The wikipedia article about the russian who somehow sneaked into the tomb and eyewitnesses a fraud is the exact opposite of the account of MonK Mitrophanes who also claims he somehow sneaked and hid in the tomb himself (and eluding the search before its dealed shut). In the book "I Saw the Holy Light" Monk Mitrophanes relates the whole story to Archimandrite Savvas Achilleos with great detail. Including first hearing a "whistling" like a light breeze, then the appearance of a blue light going around as a whirlwind and perspiration dripping from the Patriarch's face. He also gives details as to when the Patriarch begins to read the prayer; when the blue light 'calms' and begins to glow and then he simply holds up the bundles of candles till the glow turns into a bright light and lights the candles.

Of course the absolute truth is known only to the Patriarch and possibly the brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre along with the Armenian Patriarch.

Persoanlly I believe in it. Eyewitnesses relate that the miracle is not limited to inside the tomb. Flashes of lights appear across the Church and spontaneous lighting of pilgrims candles occur during the phenomenon.

The best "study" of the Rite of the Holy Fire, meaning a study of its origins to how it is celebrated today. Along with the search and sealing of the tomb on Good Friday, the role the muslim and Israeli authorities play,various recorded beliefs and opinions given down thru the centuries, along with an analysis of the actual miracle, can be found in the book, ""The Paschal Fire in Jerusalem". Its an excellent well documented book; isbn #0-9634692-0-7

In the back cover of the book, an eyewitness relates what he experienced during the service:

"I had heard about the Holy Fire and was, when i made my trip to Jerusalem for Pascha, not disbelieving. I found the idea that such a phenomenon existed interesting and I wanted to see for myself. What I saw was interesting... The Church was crowded beyond description. Before the manifestation of the Holy Fire, the arabs created a tremendous scene, proclaiming the correctness of their faith and running here and there through the Church... Then the Holy Fire was brought out by the Patriarch. During this time, I could see what appeared to be flashes of blue colored light bouncing off the walls of the dome of the Church and through the galleries. There was an electric qualityto the air, almost like static electricity." -Dr. Eugene Zavarin, Professor of Chemistry, University of California Berkely.

[MoNiCa4316]

Interesting..I don't quite know what to think...hmm...I kinda half believe in it and half don't. I'm still thinking.

[Kolya]

Interesting..I don't quite know what to think...hmm...I kinda half believe in it and half don't. I'm still thinking.

Well,that's why most of us EO don't talk about this subject too much. It's our little "open secret" that we keep close to our hearts. It matters little to us whether it's provable or not.

BTW, can anyone "prove" Christ's being born of a Virgin?
Just asking...

[Jacob4707]

Well,that's why most of us EO don't talk about this subject too much. It's our little "open secret" that we keep close to our hearts. It matters little to us whether it's provable or not.

BTW, can anyone "prove" Christ's being born of a Virgin?
Just asking...

We are required to believe that. We are not required to believe in the Holy Fire or whether it is legitimate or not.

[Mytheodos]

We are required to believe that. We are not required to believe in the Holy Fire or whether it is legitimate or not.

Logic And Spiritual Life

Elder,What is the place of reason in the spiritual life?

Which logic are you talking about?
If you mean secular logic,then this kind of logic has no place at all in the spiritual life*.Angels and Saints,enter through our windows,we can see them ,talk with them,
and then they leave...
There is no way that one can explain this logically.
Today,increased knowledge and trust in logic has,
unfortunately,shaken our faith to its foundations and
filled our souls with question marks and doubts.
This is why we don't have miracles anymore,because
a miracle cannot be explained logically,it can only be experienced.
But faith in God will bring down divine power and overturn all human expectations.
It will perform miracles,resurrect the dead and astonish science,
From the outside,all things pertaining to the spiritual life seem upside down.
Indeed,the mysteries of God will be impossible to know
and will appear strange and contrary to nature as long as we don't overturn our secular mindset and see everything with spiritual eyes.
Those who believe that they can come to know God's
mysteries through mere scientific theory,without a spiritual life,resemble a fool who thinks he can look through a telescope and see Paradise.

Logic is very harmful when we use it to scrutinize the divine,the mysteries and miracles.
Logic drove the Roman Catholics,as i have heard, to put the Holy Communion through chemical tests to determine if it is the actual Body and Blood of Christ!
Now think of the Saints who had so much faith that they could often see flesh and blood on the Holy Communion spoon.
Pretty soon,they will be putting the Saints through an
x-ray machine to establish their sainthood!
Thus,the Catholics got rid of the Holy Spirit,put logic
in its place and now spend their time with "white magic"
I said to a Catholic,a man with a good disposition,who came to see me and was in tears."Among the most important differences that we have with you,is that you
put the mind first, whereas we put faith.
You have developed rationalism and,in general you stress the human factor.
This way you limit the power of God,because you put divine Grace aside.
You put a preservative in Holy Water to keep it from spoiling.
We, on the other hand pour Holy Water on spoiled things and they become fresh again.
We believe in Grace that santifies,and for this reason Holy Water remains unspoiled for two hundred years,five hundred years,it never spoils!.

Secular logic will Adulterate our Spiritual Sense

The Holy Fathers saw everything with the spiritual,divine eye .Patristic texts were written in the spitit of God and it was in the spirit of God that the Holy Fathers gave their interpretations.
Today this spirit is lacking and Patristic texts are hard to understand.People see everything with secular eyes and cannot see beyond that;they do not have the breath of spirit that results from faith and love.

Elder Paisios.

*(When the elder refers to logic and reproaches it,he does not mean by this term the gifts of reason with wich God has honored human beings,but rather rationalism or,as he calls it"afflicted reason",the logic that is void of faith in God,rejects divine Providence and denies the possability of miracles.)

[Protoevangel]

We are required to believe that. We are not required to believe in the Holy Fire or whether it is legitimate or not.
Do you believe in the virgin birth because you are "required" to believe it? :scratch:

May I ask you this... Do you believe the accounts of the miraculous deeds of the Saints (not necessarily ALL of them, but any of them)? Take Saint Mary of Egypt for an example. Is this nothing more than a moralistic fable to you?

Sorry, but the whole "required" thing really makes me curious.

[Dorothea]

Um...the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is one of the most holy sites in our faith. Why wouldn't miracles come from it? I don't find anything that happens there surprising or unbelievable.

[Jacob4707]

Do you believe in the virgin birth because you are "required" to believe it? :scratch:

May I ask you this... Do you believe the accounts of the miraculous deeds of the Saints (not necessarily ALL of them, but any of them)? Take Saint Mary of Egypt for an example. Is this nothing more than a moralistic fable to you?

Sorry, but the whole "required" thing really makes me curious.

And [I believe] in one Lord Jesus Christ, the one-and-only Son of God, begotten from the Father before all the ages. Light from Light, True God from True God, begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father, from whom all things came to be. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man....

[Saint Melania]

Acts Chapter 2 - NKJV

1When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all [fn1] with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The Crowd's Response

5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs--we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God." 12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, "Whatever could this mean?"
13 Others mocking said, "They are full of new wine."
Peter's Sermon
(Joel 2:28-32)
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.' [fn2]


Example in the Old Testament:

Exodus 3
Moses at the burning bush

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
Exd 3:2
And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
Exd 3:3
Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn."
Exd 3:4
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am."
Exd 3:5
Then He said, "Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground."
Exd 3:6
Moreover He said, "I am the God of your father--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

[Protoevangel]

And [I believe] in one Lord Jesus Christ, the one-and-only Son of God, begotten from the Father before all the ages. Light from Light, True God from True God, begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father, from whom all things came to be. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man....
Why would you refuse to answer the questions?

[elizabethevangeline]

Why would you refuse to answer the questions?
Kolya is in Africa. He's probably asleep.

Oops...I just realized you are talking to Jacob. Never mind.

[Jacob4707]

Why would you refuse to answer the questions?

Why do you need to know the answers? :) Do you believe the accounts of the miraculous deeds of the Saints?

FWIW, I tend to be skeptical of some things, but largely believe the stories, or else they wouldn't be Saints. On the other hand, I have to admit skepticism at things like Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:1: "... they ordered an executioner to go up to him and stab him with a dagger. And when he did this, there came out a dove and a large quantity of blood."

The phrase "a dove and" was considered to be a later addition to the text, but Michael Holmes now includes it in the text in his latest edition of The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations (3rd edition 2007).

[Protoevangel]

Why do you need to know the answers? :)
Only because of your earlier answer that sounds quite legalistic... to me anyway:

We are required to believe that. We are not required to believe in the Holy Fire or whether it is legitimate or not.
Do you only believe what you are "required" to believe? That doesn't sound like a very sound basis for belief. Hopefully it was just a bad choice of words and a slight misunderstanding.


Do you believe the accounts of the miraculous deeds of the Saints?
I do. I believe them, not because of any "requirement", but exactly because I believe in Christ, His promises, and His Bride, the Church. The Holy Spirit leads this Church into All Truth, not fantasy and lies. Now, can you give me a reason I should not believe them?


FWIW, I tend to be skeptical of some things, but largely believe the stories, or else they wouldn't be Saints. On the other hand, I have to admit skepticism at things like Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:1: "... they ordered an executioner to go up to him and stab him with a dagger. And when he did this, there came out a dove and a large quantity of blood."

The phrase "a dove and" was considered to be a later addition to the text, but Michael Holmes now includes it in the text in his latest edition of The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations (3rd edition 2007).
Fair enough. I can see how something like that could be hard to believe. Doves don't usually fly out of gaping wounds.

I don't know the basis for saying that was a later edition, whether there are earlier extant manuscripts without the questioned part, if the writing style appears different than the rest of the account, of if is is simply scholars who doubt the miraculous, and treat the texts like the Jesus Seminar treat the Gospels.

I myself am not one to demand that every word of the text must be inerrant/literal, but for the most part (and not intentionally ignoring the scholarly debate completely), I can see no reason to reject it (or other miraculous accounts) as false or fable.

I do apologize for my earlier confrontational tone. I'm not trying to put you on the spot or anything like that... I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.

[Akathist]

Well,that's why most of us EO don't talk about this subject too much. It's our little "open secret" that we keep close to our hearts. It matters little to us whether it's provable or not.

BTW, can anyone "prove" Christ's being born of a Virgin?
Just asking...

Very good post. It really doesn't matter to me also if anyone else does not believes it, or if they are skeptical.

And we don't talk about it mostly because I think it hurts a bit to have others be so skeptical of something that we treasure so much in our hearts.

My heart actually aches a little when I read peoples negative remarks about it. I know they mean no harm, but it involuntarily aches just a bit.

[ma2000]

http://www.ortodoxtv.com/filme-video/sfanta-lumina.php

Look at the twelveth minute. You can't do that with a normal flame.

[Kolya]

Kolya is in Africa. He's probably asleep.

Oops...I just realized you are talking to Jacob. Never mind.

Did I cause a "few pebbles to slip off the cliff?" Thanks for thinking of me while I'm sleeping anyhow.:wave:

Jacob,

We love you here anyway. Don't feel bad about asking too many questions about Orthodoxy. I was THE MOST STUBBORN convert.:P

Go well.

[buzuxi02]

http://www.ortodoxtv.com/filme-video/sfanta-lumina.php

Look at the twelveth minute. You can't do that with a normal flame.
I'm more interested at whats going on in the approx 13:15 minute. Are the group of 3 or 4 people looking upwards at something and one then points upwards? Or am i reading to much into it?

[ma2000]

I'm more interested at whats going on in the approx 13:15 minute. Are the group of 3 or 4 people looking upwards at something and one then points upwards? Or am i reading to much into it?
I have read that a ball of light travels inside the church and lights the candles. It is either a powerful lamp (which I doubt) or the Holy Light. Those people deffinately saw something.
At 23:58 you also see a candle light before they could light the candles from the Patriarch.

[MoNiCa4316]

I'm still thinking about it...I see now that this is something really dear to some people..

And we don't talk about it mostly because I think it hurts a bit to have others be so skeptical of something that we treasure so much in our hearts

I know how you feel Akathist. :hug:
lol I kinda regret I started this thread now.
I wouldn't want anyone to doubt this Fire if they believe in it, or to feel sad that others are skeptical.

Well..I'll keep on thinking about it. At the moment I'm pretty open, and I'm willing to believe it's real if God will lead me to this belief.

God bless

monica

[nikostheater]

I believe in it.

[Kolya]

I'm more interested at whats going on in the approx 13:15 minute. Are the group of 3 or 4 people looking upwards at something and one then points upwards? Or am i reading to much into it?
It is often told that a blue "lightning" appears up near the roof before the fire appears in the tomb itself. They may be looking up at that.

The Holy Light is not only distributed by the Archbishop, but operates also by itself. It is emitted from the Holy Sepulchre with a hue completely different from that of natural light. It sparkles, it flashes like lightning, it flies like a dove around the tabernacle of the Holy Sepulchre, and lights up the unlit lamps of olive oil hanging in front of it. It whirls from one side of the church to the other. It enters some of the chapels inside the church, as for instance the chapel of the Calvery (at a higher level than the Holy Sepulchre) and lights up the little lamps. It lights up also the candles of certain pilgrims. In fact there are some very pious pilgrims who, every time they attended this ceremony, noticed that their candles lit up on their own accord!his divine light also presents some peculiarities: http://www.holyfire.org/eng/

The Holy Light is not only distributed by the Archbishop, but operates also by itself. It emits from the Holy Sepulchre having a gleam of a hue completely different from that of natural light. It sparkles, it flashes like lightning, it flies like a dove around the tabernacle of the the Holy Sepulchre (http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Holy_Land/The_Holy_Sepulchre/index.shtml), and lights up the unlit lamps of olive oil hanging in front of it. It whirls from one side of the church to the other. It enters to some of the chapels inside the church, as for instance the chapel of the Calvery (at a higher level than the Holy Sepulchre) and lights up the little lamps. It lights up also the candles of certain pilgrims. In fact there are some very pious pilgrims who, every time they attended this ceremony, noticed that their candles litup on the own accord! http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Pascha_Holy_Light/index.shtml