Why Dec 25?

[Torah]

I would like to inquire information about Christmas?

(1)Why, on the Georgian calendar, is December 25 picked to celebrate the birth of Messiah?

(2)Do you consider Christmas a day that one offers up to G-d, one’s praise and love Offering?

(3)Does G-d care what we offer up to him? [I am not asking what you think, G-d cares about. I am asking what G-d thinks.]

(4)Why is a “Tree” placed in ones home and adorned?.

(5) why is there a Myth of an elf who wears green & red, has a long white beard, with magical powers to appear in ones home?.

(6)Why is all this part of the offering to G-d, as the birth of Messiah?

[Lotuspetal_uk]

I would like to inquire information about Christmas?

(1)Why, on the Georgian calendar, is December 25 picked to celebrate the birth of Messiah?

About 4 years ago I'd saved an article where there had been a debate between the Catholic church and Byzantine church body early 3-400 AD. the Byzantine and orthodox church did not want to allocate Dec 25 as the day the remember Yeshua's birth. Lost the link :doh: when my PC crashed! I'd heard recently that some monk had incorrectly calculated Yeshua's birth in terms of Mary's immaculate conception to 9 months later and came up with Dec 25. I'm intending to look into this over the next few days before I return to work

(2)Do you consider Christmas a day that one offers up to G-d, one’s praise and love offering

Jury's out with me. I've progressed to not doing all the Christmas tree and holly wreath stuff but I still visited my family yesterday. In terms of other Christians celebrating it I view that in a Rom 14:5 context, but I can't stand the commercialism attached to this time of year.

(3)Does G-d care what we offer up to him? I am not asking what you think, G-d cares about. I am asking what G-d thinks.Yes, I believe He does and what I'm seeing now are an increasing number of people who are seeking the Lord and being mindful of what is written for how the nations are to serve Him. I'm wondeirng whether He is equipping mankind to be aware of His expectations instead of the traditions of men.

(4)Why is a “Tree” placed in ones home and adorned?. I'd looked into this yesterday, because of preparing for my family tackling me about the fact that I don't have one. Aparently in 700AD a British monk missionary went to Germany to convert the pagans there. He got angry when he saw the Germanic tribes worshipping an oak tree which represented the god thor. In his anger he chopped down the tree and there growing inside was a fir tree sapling. He seized the opportunity to state that the fir tree represented Christ in us and that it represented the new Christian faith. The Germans took this on board and used the tree to remember Christ! Still gob smacked at this story but had found it from a google search :blush: Both those in favour and against the tree seem to use this as their source of the origin of the Christmas tree. Of course good ole Prince Albert brought the tradition to England during the reign of Queen Victoria and us being typical Brits copied the customs of the Royal family to this day.

(5) why is there a Myth of an elf who wears green & red, has a long white beard, with magical powers to appear in ones home?.

Would like to see the thoughts of others on this one as this sticks in my throat as well.

(6)Why is all this part of the offering to G-d, as the birth of Messiah?

Alas many many years of mis-teachings and the traditions of men.

Shalom

[cyberlizard]

december 25th is a birthday - the false god mithras.

[Henaynei]

I questioned the L-rd just before Christmas....


We live in a Bible Belt community, our only fellowship is a Baptist congregation pastored by a Hebrew Christian, a very lovely, humble and g-dly man.


So here we are once again in the midst of their grandest spiritual celebration season. Last year we were on the periphery and no one really noticed our absence. Now my husband has been teaching a Jewish Roots study under the covering of the pastor to a group of interested folk for about a year. Our absences from services is always noticed. Add to this the numerous "discussions" on MJF and the stirring defense of Christmas by many there who label themselves Messianic and I felt I had to ask the L-rd about my heart attitude.


So I put it to Him rather bluntly. "Am I being too persnickety?"

His answer was immediate and also blunt. "Golden Calf."


The people of Israel were NOT worshipping some other god with that calf.... no, they were worshipping HaShem. They were using the most beautiful, glorious and costly form of worship they knew. They even joyfully brought freewill offerings of the bounty of gold and gems that G-d had bestowed on them on their way out of Egypt. Their heart was to worship G-d, to rejoice in His deliverance. Sh'mot 32:4 He received what they gave him, melted it down, and made it into the shape of a calf. They said, "Isra'el! Here is your god, who brought you up from the land of Egypt!" 5 On seeing this, Aharon built an altar in front of it and proclaimed, "Tomorrow is to be a feast for ADONAI." But thanks to Hollywood and supersessionism we have been given an image of an orgy - but that is not what they were doing ... they were rejoicing and celebrating ... 6 Early the next morning they got up and offered burnt offerings and presented peace offerings. Afterwards, the people sat down to eat and drink; then they got up to indulge in revelry. (King James says "to play")
They were using the symbols they had seen, and likely used, in Egypt. They just were using them to "honor" HaShem rather than the gods of Egypt. They were taking the pagan rites and symbols and using them to worship G-d. Their heart was not wrong, and surely the Egyptians among them felt less insecure and more comfortable with these activities. But G-d nearly destroyed the entire camp because of it.


In the above you can see all the apologetics for the Christmas and Easter celebrations. The people's heart may be right, but does it anger G-d???


So, we did not worship with the congregation yesterday as we did not want to have to leave during the service as we were sure there would be so kind of Christmas worship, in song or message .... and after what G-d had said we could not participate.... now we've not participated in Christian holy days for some time, but in this place I felt the need to double check our heart attitude with HaShem, and He gently and quietly gave me an ear full...


b'Shalom
Henaynei

[Baruch41]

I hope my other post can help you answering this question. The source is from a very devoted member of a very devoted loving christian site.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=41909365#post41909365

Shalom

[simchat_torah]

careful... this thread might upset contra ;)

[Lulav]

I would like to inquire information about Christmas? I'm sure you already have looked into this long ago by some of the posts I've seen you make,;) but I'll play along.:)

(1)Why, on the Georgian calendar, is December 25 picked to celebrate the birth of Messiah? Because people didn't trust in the power of G-d and who he is to attrack pagans to him? :)

(2)Do you consider Christmas a day that one offers up to G-d, one’s praise and love Offering? I consider every day a day for that.

(3)Does G-d care what we offer up to him? [I am not asking what you think, G-d cares about. I am asking what G-d thinks.] If he didn't why did he bother to tell us he did? THey didn't want to read those instructions though, saying that they were for the 'dirty Jews who killed Christ' and they wouldn't be 'under the law' but the law tells us when you go into a land with heathens to take care to not be ensnared by following them , and to not inquire after how they followed their false gods, and to not do the same unto the L-RD our G-d for to do so is an abomination unto our G-d,and to not add or take away from this word. (Deut 12 summary)
So there you have it. :sigh:

(4)Why is a “Tree” placed in ones home and adorned?. I think like someone said, this originated in Germany and is another of man's traditions that they associate with Yeshua, sadly. Pine trees are not really that prodigious in Israel, for a tree to represent Israel would be a fig tree, and olive tree or at least a lulav, a palm tree, but again disassociate him from his very chosen roots. :(
(5) why is there a Myth of an elf who wears green & red, has a long white beard, with magical powers to appear in ones home?. Is it a myth? I see them all over. And many horrific things done by those who 'inhabit' the suit. Santa is a blatant way that man has taken G-d out of the picture and elevated a mere man to the role of the omnipotent one who can see you when you sleep and knows your every thought word and deed and rewards you with gifts if 'good' and emptiness and sadness if you're bad.

(6)Why is all this part of the offering to G-d, as the birth of Messiah? To confuse, dilute, water down, make more equal so Satan can have more control of you. Also by presenting Yeshua as a helpless babe in a 'manger' he can appear more powerful next to him, very much like the reason many churches have the crucifix, to show him helpless and dead on the cross.
I serve and worship a very much alive , risen Savior!

[Torah]

Lotuspetal_uk
In terms of other Christians celebrating it I view that in a Rom 14:5 context,


I would like to share something with you that you might not have seen, concerning Rom 14:5. When Paul was writhing the letter of Romans, what days could he have been speaking of as Holy / sacred? (Rom 14:5-6)

The list below are referring to the High Holy days. Notice; the similarities in what I underlined [“Awake”] and Romans 13:11.
[Romans 13: 11And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.]


This could give a clearer understanding of what was being said in Rom 14:5.

an allusion, as if to say, "Awake, O you sleepers, awake from your sleep!
O you slumberers, awake from your slumber! Search your deeds and turn in repentance!"
http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism/holidays/rosh.htm (http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism/holidays/rosh.htm)

----

While, of course, the reason we blow the shofar is because HaShem commanded us to do so, there are many meanings and messages which are present in the blowing.
The sound of the shofar serves as a "wake-up" call to arouse our souls to repentance.
http://members.aol.com/lazerA/RoshHashana.htm (http://members.aol.com/lazerA/RoshHashana.htm)

----

The Shofar's Call to Teshuva (13:37)
The Rambam's famous understanding of the call of the shofar -- "Awake, sleepers, from your slumber!"
Sources: MT Teshuva 3:4-5 (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/1503.htm#7)
http://rabbi.bendory.com/cgi-bin/lectures/roshana (http://rabbi.bendory.com/cgi-bin/lectures/roshana)

----

6. While Rosh Hashanah is a time when we are to "awake from our slumber" and mend our ways, the consumption of meat on Rosh Hashanah means that we are continuing the habits that are so detrimental to our health, to animals, to hungry people, and to ecosystems. While we symbolically cast away our sins at tashlich during Rosh Hashanah, the eating of meat means a continuation of the "sins" associated with our diets, with regard to treatment of animals, protecting our health, polluting the environment, and wasting food and other resources. While Rosh Hashanah is meant to be a time of deep contemplation when we carefully examine our deeds, most meat eaters ignore the many moral issues related to their diets.
This seams to be speaking of Vegetarians looking down on those who eat meat.
This seams to be part of what Romans 14, is speaking of.
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/jvroshhashanah.html (http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/jvroshhashanah.html)

This is just a different point of view. :wave:

[A_Pioneer]

All God fearers read Heb. 10:26-31, if this is scripture, then once you know the truth and thumb your nose at the "Living God" and you believe in the after life.
To sin willfully there is nothing left but the hands of the Living God!
It is amazing to me that these same folks almost delight in sinners in eternal hell fire, will ignore their own log!

Shalom

[Lulav]

Scripture expressly forbids the worship of other gods. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Exodus 20:3 "And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth." Exodus 23:13
Yet, for some reason, many forget the idolatry of Israel's past and the resulting captivity. Somehow the church believes that they may mix pagan religions with G-d's truth and still end up with acceptable HolyDays for G-d. That didn't work for Israel then and it won't work for believers today. YHVH and other gods DO NOT MIX. YHVH's festivals and pagan festivals DO NOT MIX. When you mix something unclean with something clean -- both become defiled.


Christmas attempts to incorporate the birth of Yeshua with the old pagan festival of Saturnalia: Saturn* (mythology), in Roman mythology, ancient god of agriculture. In later legends he was identified with the Greek god Cronus, who, after having been dethroned by his son Zeus (in Roman mythology, Jupiter), fled to Italy, where he ruled during the Golden Age, a time of perfect peace and happiness. Beginning on December 17 of each year, during the festival known as the Saturnalia, the Golden Age was restored for seven days. All business stopped and executions and military operations were postponed. It was a period of goodwill, devoted to banquets and the exchange of visits and gifts. A special feature of the festival was the freedom given to slaves, who during this time had first place at the family table and were served by their masters.Paul wrote to the Galatians who were trying to combine their old ways with Messiah:
"But at that time, having no knowledge of God, you were servants to those who by right are no gods: But now that you have come to have knowledge of God, or more truly, God has knowledge of you, how is it that you go back again to the poor and feeble first things, desiring to be servants to them again? You keep days, and months, and fixed times, and years. I am in fear of you, that I may have been working for you to no purpose." Galatians 4:10

And to the Corinthians
"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Messiah with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father to you; and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord, the Ruler of all." 2 Corinthians 6:14-18

[Lotuspetal_uk]

.....

This is just a different point of view. :wave:

No, not at all, thank you brother, :wave:

I greatly appreciated your post, and I have learnt much from it.

Thank you for your gentle instruction, much appreciated. :hug:

[Torah]

I would like to inquire information about Christmas?

Why, on the Georgian calendar, is December 25 picked to celebrate the birth of Messiah?

Mithraism


Sunday was kept holy in honour of Mithra, and the sixteenth of each month was sacred to him as mediator. The 25 December was observed as his birthday, the natalis invicti, the rebirth of the winter-sun, unconquered by the rigours of the season.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm)

Natalis Invicti

The well-known solar feast, however, of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date. For the history of the solar cult, its position in the Roman Empire, and syncretism{the fusion of two or more originally different inflectional forms) with Mithraism,...
The earliest rapprochement of the births of Christ and the sun is in Cyprian, "De pasch. Comp.", xix, "O quam præclare providentia ut illo die quo natus est Sol . . . nasceretur Christus." — "O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born . . . Christ should be born."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm)

----
Do you consider Christmas a day that one offers up to G-d, one’s praise and love
Offering?

Does G-d care what we offer up to him? [I am not asking what you think, G-d cares about. I am asking what G-d thinks.]

Exodus 32: 5...."Tomorrow there will be a festival to the LORD." 6 So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings.

These people were offering there praise and love offering to G-d. And it was mixed with ?

----

Why is a “Tree” placed in ones home and adorned?.
The first printed reference to Christmas trees appeared in Germany in 1531.
Tree worship was common among the pagan Europeans and survived their conversion to Christianity in the Scandinavian customs of decorating the house and barn (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9082436##) with evergreens at the New Year to scare away the devil and of setting up a tree for the birds during Christmastime; it survived further in the custom, also observed in Germany, of placing a Yule tree at an entrance or inside the house during the midwinter holidays.
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9082436/Christmas-tree (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9082436/Christmas-tree)

The Pine Defeats the Oak
After the Christmas holiday began to travel across Europe, the old midwinter feasts became entwined with the new Christian celebration. Most notably, the Germanic tribes still fervently hung onto their tree worshipping rituals, despite the Church’s attempt to draw the people into the Christian fold.
A compromise was reached by the fortuitous and effective substitution of the pine for the oak. By suggesting the pine as the tree of worship, the Church was able to suggest a Christian meaning for the ritual by pointing to the three corners of the pine tree triangular shape as representing the three parts of the holy trinity. This suggestion allowed the pagan tribes to continue their deeply-entrenched custom of tree decoration at midwinter whilst acknowledging the Christian celebration.
http://www.christmaswatch.net/2007/12/pagan-tree-worship-in-suburbia.html (http://www.christmaswatch.net/2007/12/pagan-tree-worship-in-suburbia.html)

http://livingheritage.org/pole-spirits.htm (http://livingheritage.org/pole-spirits.htm)

----

Also, why is there a Myth of an elf who wears green & red, has a long white beard, with magical powers to appear in ones home?. Why is all this part of the offering to G-d, as the birth of Messiah?

http://www.av1611.org/othpubls/santa.html (http://www.av1611.org/othpubls/santa.html)

http://livingheritage.org/pole-spirits.htm (http://livingheritage.org/pole-spirits.htm)

The definition of Myths- (tradition often founded on some fact of nature or an event in the early history of a people and some religious belief of that people. Beliefs concerning their origin, gods, heroes. KJV says "fable" - (to talk or write about as if true)
Look at 2tim4:3-4 to see how the word Myth is used. NIV,


you may say; "I do not bow to other gods". conceder this! what do you do when you put water under your tree in order to keep it alive. or to reach under the tree in order to get presents.

[Lulav]

Yes can't blame the tree when the whole celebration of a birth was not commanded in scripture in the first place. ;)

It seems by the one article all this started by shunning the true Sabbath day and exchanging it for 'Sun' day, I guess that is what happens when you try to distance yourself from the foundation of your faith, what was given to the Jews by G-d himself.

[A_Pioneer]

Yes can't blame the tree when the whole celebration of a birth was not commanded in scripture in the first place. ;)

It seems by the one article all this started by shunning the true Sabbath day and exchanging it for 'Sun' day, I guess that is what happens when you try to distance yourself from the foundation of your faith, what was given to the Jews by G-d himself.

Amen!

[visionary]

The Saturnalia was the most popular holiday of the Roman year. Catullus describes it as "the best of days," and Seneca complains that the "whole mob has let itself go in pleasures." Pliny the Younger writes that he retired to his room while the rest of the household celebrated. Cicero fled to the countryside. It was an occasion for celebration, visits to friends, and the presentation of gifts, particularly wax candles, perhaps to signify the returning light after the solstice. Homes were decorated with greenery. Candles and lamps chased away the spirits of darkness.
Celebrate the holiday with merriment (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/15205/saturnalia_the_reason_we_celebrate.html)

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

december 25th is a birthday - the false god mithras.

Sol inviticus wasn't created until 125 years after the first recorded Christmas celebrations.

December 25 was picked because it is 9 months after March 25, the first day of the year and the point on the early Christian liturgical calender for the conception of Christ.

[Torah]

Sol inviticus wasn't created until 125 years after the first recorded Christmas celebrations.

December 25 was picked because it is 9 months after March 25, the first day of the year and the point on the early Christian liturgical calender for the conception of Christ.
Mithraism


Sunday was kept holy in honour of Mithra, and the sixteenth of each month was sacred to him as mediator. The 25 December was observed as his birthday, the natalis invicti, the rebirth of the winter-sun, unconquered by the rigours of the season.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm)

Natalis Invicti

The well-known solar feast, however, of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date. For the history of the solar cult, its position in the Roman Empire, and syncretism{the fusion of two or more originally different inflectional forms) with Mithraism,...
The earliest rapprochement of the births of Christ and the sun is in Cyprian, "De pasch. Comp.", xix, "O quam præclare providentia ut illo die quo natus est Sol . . . nasceretur Christus." — "O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born . . . Christ should be born."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm)

[A_Pioneer]

Sol inviticus wasn't created until 125 years after the first recorded Christmas celebrations.

December 25 was picked because it is 9 months after March 25, the first day of the year and the point on the early Christian liturgical calender for the conception of Christ.
:D LOL:D "Tilt", Tilt"! Seems to be a slight error in your speech!
What part of the truth is December 25?:liturgy:

Because the Roman Church said so!

:D

Shalom

[Gwenyfur]

Mine may not be the most popular of views...and I'll prolly be accused of not being "messianic enough" or worse being a "messy-antic" but:

The Church, in it's early years of conversion did indeed overtake many local holidays, Christmas included, from the native peoples...but in doing so they took to pagan false holidays and turned the focus of those days from false pagan gods, to the one Living G-d.

The evergreen tree now symbolizes the eternal life provided by the saving grace of Y'shua.

The lights (back then candles) represent the Light of Salvation He brought to His people.

The holly and mistletoe representative of His crown of thorns and His conquering of death and sin.

We can cry day in and day out of the pagan origins of the Christmas season...or we can rejoice that His people, no matter what their doctrine, set aside a day in time to rejoice in the Birth of their Savior and King.

[A_Pioneer]

First-born of all creation! What day was that?


Shalom

[Torah]

Mine may not be the most popular of views...and I'll prolly be accused of not being "messianic enough" or worse being a "messy-antic" but:

The Church, in it's early years of conversion did indeed overtake many local holidays, Christmas included, from the native peoples...but in doing so they took to pagan false holidays and turned the focus of those days from false pagan gods, to the one Living G-d.

The evergreen tree now symbolizes the eternal life provided by the saving grace of Y'shua.

The lights (back then candles) represent the Light of Salvation He brought to His people.

The holly and mistletoe representative of His crown of thorns and His conquering of death and sin.

We can cry day in and day out of the pagan origins of the Christmas season...or we can rejoice that His people, no matter what their doctrine, set aside a day in time to rejoice in the Birth of their Savior and King.
The problem with this way of thinking is to say that G-d does not care that we mix pagan origin “things”. And then offer it up to him. If anything from the past we should learn that G-d does care what we offer up to him.

Exodus 32: 5...."Tomorrow there will be a festival to the LORD." 6 So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings.

These people were offering there praise and love offering to G-d. And it was mixed with ?

[Henaynei]

Mine may not be the most popular of views...and I'll probably be accused of not being "messianic enough" or worse being a "messy-antic" but:

The Church, in it's early years of conversion did indeed overtake many local holidays, Christmas included, from the native peoples...but in doing so they took to pagan false holidays and turned the focus of those days from false pagan gods, to the one Living G-d.

The evergreen tree now symbolizes the eternal life provided by the saving grace of Y'shua.

The lights (back then candles) represent the Light of Salvation He brought to His people.

The holly and mistletoe representative of His crown of thorns and His conquering of death and sin.

We can cry day in and day out of the pagan origins of the Christmas season...or we can rejoice that His people, no matter what their doctrine, set aside a day in time to rejoice in the Birth of their Savior and King.and Israel, on being delivered from Egypt took a pagan symbol and fashioned it to represent HaShem... they made sacrifices to it and sanctified it and said "this it your G-d, O Israel, who brought you out of Egypt" - they were using the gold calf to represent His strength and power, they took a pagan false god and turned the focus to the One True Living G-d .... now why didn't Moses and G-d rejoice in their intent and meaning?? Why did Moses cry out, why did G-d say he w2as going to destroy them all?? Why did G-d demand judgement upon them in blood? :scratch:

[Gwenyfur]

It wasn't their intent to honor the Living G-d...their intent and thinking was that G-d had forsaken them:

Ex 32:1
And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.


there's not intent to honor G-d in their hearts...only that they make themselves a new god to lead them...

[Henaynei]

It wasn't their intent to honor the Living G-d...their intent and thinking was that G-d had forsaken them:


there's not intent to honor G-d in their hearts...only that they make themselves a new god to lead them...oh really?? not ...

sure, they said "gods" - and meant the gods/idols they saw in Egypt .... but then they ALSO said:

Sh'mot 32
4 He received what they gave him, melted it down, and made it into the shape of a calf. They said, "Isra'el! Here is your god, who brought you up from the land of Egypt!" 5 On seeing this, Aharon built an altar in front of it and proclaimed, "Tomorrow is to be a feast for ADONAI (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03068&version=kjv) (YHVH)."

They were using the gods/idols, methods and visuals of Egypt to worship HaShem!

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Mithraism


Sunday was kept holy in honour of Mithra, and the sixteenth of each month was sacred to him as mediator. The 25 December was observed as his birthday, the natalis invicti, the rebirth of the winter-sun, unconquered by the rigours of the season.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm)

Natalis Invicti

The well-known solar feast, however, of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date. For the history of the solar cult, its position in the Roman Empire, and syncretism{the fusion of two or more originally different inflectional forms) with Mithraism,...
The earliest rapprochement of the births of Christ and the sun is in Cyprian, "De pasch. Comp.", xix, "O quam præclare providentia ut illo die quo natus est Sol . . . nasceretur Christus." — "O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born . . . Christ should be born."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm)

I'm not sure what point you are making? I agree that Mithraism celebrated Sol Inviticus on Dec. 25, but this holiday was started 125 years after Christmas.

Christmas is just one of many days on the early Christian liturgical calender and it was set on December 25- 9 months after the Spring solstice.

The problem is that a lot of people think Christmas and Easter are just two holidays from nowhere- but they are just two of 300 or so days on the liturgical calender. Protestants decided to adopt them from the Catholics and Orthodox.

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

:D LOL:D "Tilt", Tilt"! Seems to be a slight error in your speech!
What part of the truth is December 25?:liturgy:

Because the Roman Church said so!

:D

Shalom

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

[Torah]

SpiritualAntiseptic
I'm not sure what point you are making? I agree that Mithraism celebrated Sol Inviticus on Dec. 25, but this holiday was started 125 years after Christmas.

Christmas is just one of many days on the early Christian liturgical calender and it was set on December 25- 9 months after the Spring solstice.

The problem is that a lot of people think Christmas and Easter are just two holidays from nowhere- but they are just two of 300 or so days on the liturgical calender. Protestants decided to adopt them from the Catholics and Orthodox.



Sol inviticus wasn't created until 125 years after the first recorded Christmas celebrations.

December 25 was picked because it is 9 months after March 25, the first day of the year and the point on the early Christian liturgical calender for the conception of Christ.


The Catholic Encyclopedia disagrees with you on the conception of Christ on March 25. And Mithraism was already well established.

The astronomical theory

Duchesne (Les origines du culte chrétien, Paris, 1902, 262 sqq.) advances the "astronomical" theory that, given 25 March as Christ's death-day [historically impossible, but a tradition old as Tertullian (Adv. Jud., 8)], the popular instinct, demanding an exact number of years in a Divine life, would place His conception on the same date, His birth 25 December. This theory is best supported by the fact that certainMontanists (Sozomen, Hist. Eccl., VII, 18) kept Easter on 6 April; both 25 December and 6 January are thus simultaneously explained. The reckoning, moreover, is wholly in keeping with the arguments based on number and astronomy and "convenience", then so popular. Unfortunately, there is no contemporary evidence for the celebration in the fourth century of Christ's conception on 25 March.


The Catholic Encyclopedia does agree that the well-known solar feast in honour of the birth of Mithra on Dec 25 has a strong claim to the fusion of the dates together.

Mithraism


Sunday was kept holy in honour of Mithra, and the sixteenth of each month was sacred to him as mediator. The 25 December was observed as his birthday, the natalis invicti, the rebirth of the winter-sun, unconquered by the rigours of the season.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm)

Natalis Invicti

The well-known solar feast, however, of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date.For the history of the solar cult, its position in the Roman Empire, and syncretism{the fusion of two or more originally different inflectional forms) with Mithraism,...
The earliest rapprochement of the births of Christ and the sun is in Cyprian, "De pasch. Comp.", xix, "O quam præclare providentia ut illo die quo natus est Sol . . . nasceretur Christus." — "O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born . . . Christ should be born."

The present writer in inclined to think that, be the origin of the feast {Christmas) in East or West, and though the abundance of analogous midwinter festivals may indefinitely have helped the choice of the December date, the same instinct which set Natalis Invicti at the winter solstice will have sufficed, apart from deliberate adaptation or curious calculation, to set the Christian feast there too.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm)




Mithraism & Tammuz

Mercian Order of St.George Christianity or Mithraism

http://members.aol.com/MercStG/ChriMithPage1.html (http://members.aol.com/MercStG/ChriMithPage1.html)

http://members.aol.com/MercStG/TeachPage1.html (http://members.aol.com/MercStG/TeachPage1.html)

It is surprising that Christianity was to become the international religion, when one considers that the already well-established religion of Mithraism was a natural challenger for that title. Up until the time of the Emperor Constantine, it was the latter religion which was more popular within the framework of the Roman Empire, and Christianity was regarded as being only one sect amongst numerous other sects. It was only when Constantine decreed that Christianity was to be the state religion, that Mithraism, together with a host of other religions and sects, was put into the melting pot, and ideas of that religion, most suited for the Christian purpose, were absorbed into the new state-approved religion.


Mithraism, the religion followed by those who worshipped the sun god Mithra, originated in Persia about 400 BC, and was to spread its Pagan ideas as far west as the British Isles. In the early centuries of the Christian era, Mithraism was the most wide-spread religion in the Western World, and its remains are to be found in monuments scattered around the countries of Europe, which then comprised the known civilised world.
For three centuries both religions ran parallel, Mithraism first becoming known to the Romans in 70 BC, Christianity following a century later, and it wasn’t until AD 377 that Christianity became sufficiently strong to suppress its former rival, although Mithraism was to remain a formidable opponent for some time after that, only slowly being forsaken by the people. It was only the absorption of many Mithraist ideas into Christianity which finally saw its downfall.

In conclusion I would like to say that the EarlyChurch fathers syncretism many pagan practices into Christianity in order to accommodate the people of the time.
On the other hand G-ds Holidays were banished.

[Torah]

It wasn't their intent to honor the Living G-d...their intent and thinking was that G-d had forsaken them:


there's not intent to honor G-d in their hearts...only that they make themselves a new god to lead them...
SO! If there intent was to honor the living G-d It would have been OK to declare the new festival to the L-rd, and to present the fellowship offering to Him?

[Gwenyfur]

christians aren't offering sacrifices...and they aren't bound by the law...they're gentiles!! good grief!

Most of 'em are offering prayers, adn thanksgivings!

I know several families who do the tree and decorating, but don't exchange gifts at all with each other, instead they give to a needy family, or make donations to charity in each other's names...

If there were truly something wrong wtih Christmas, don't you believe G-d is strong enough to convict His children of their error???? If He truly had a "problem" with Christmas being celebrated do you think He'd allow the tradition to remain...

Seriously, how many traditions has G-d taken out throughough history? How many practices and festivals?

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

The Catholic Encyclopedia disagrees with you on the conception of Christ on March 25. And Mithraism was already well established. [/]

What you quoted from newadvent didn't disagree with me about March 25.

March 25 is the Feast of the Annunciation in the Catholic Church. That is the day Christ's conception is celebrated. I don't know how you could argue that because you can see it on any liturgical calender.

I didn't say anything about when Mithraism was established- I was talking about Sol Invictus, a holiday within Mithraism. As you may know, Mithraism wasn't a dogmatic religion, it was constantly evolving and changing because it was taught by word of mouth.

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

(4)Why is a “Tree” placed in ones home and adorned?.

btw- I thought you might be interested in the answer.

Christmas trees originated in Germany. It wasn't really until the last few centuries that other countries began adopting the practice.

Around Christmas, Germans would put on Christian plays. To represent the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, they would get an evergreen tree and adorn it with apples. When I grew up, we actually had apples as the ornaments for our tree. They would take them home and over time, everyone in Germany had a "Christmas tree". The glass balls that are common nowadays came from the round apples (but as the apples lost meaning over time, the glass balls made more sense to use).

http://www.debispantry.com/images/appleornament.jpg

[christinepro]

christians aren't offering sacrifices...and they aren't bound by the law...they're gentiles!! good grief!

Most of 'em are offering prayers, adn thanksgivings!

I know several families who do the tree and decorating, but don't exchange gifts at all with each other, instead they give to a needy family, or make donations to charity in each other's names...

If there were truly something wrong wtih Christmas, don't you believe G-d is strong enough to convict His children of their error???? If He truly had a "problem" with Christmas being celebrated do you think He'd allow the tradition to remain...

Seriously, how many traditions has G-d taken out throughough history? How many practices and festivals?
I felt a huge burden for many years when I used to celebrate Christmas. It just didn't feel right. I don't condemn people for celebrating it but I can't do it myself. I believe that there is so much knowledge about the pagan festivals now because we are approaching the end of the age. G-d said that he was going to provoke the Jewish people to jealousy and he did that for 2000 years. People are waking up and are learning the truth. Jeremiah 10 always stands out for me.

Jeremiah 10:1-16

1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

[christinepro]

btw- I thought you might be interested in the answer.

Christmas trees originated in Germany. It wasn't really until the last few centuries that other countries began adopting the practice.

Around Christmas, Germans would put on Christian plays. To represent the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, they would get an evergreen tree and adorn it with apples. When I grew up, we actually had apples as the ornaments for our tree. They would take them home and over time, everyone in Germany had a "Christmas tree". The glass balls that are common nowadays came from the round apples (but as the apples lost meaning over time, the glass balls made more sense to use).

http://www.debispantry.com/images/appleornament.jpg

I hate the date of Christmas, I hate the evergreens for what they represent. I like to remember the birth during Sukkot. To me this is more historically accurate. I guess I am kind of a revolutionist and a Grinch!:D

[Torah]

SpiritualAntiseptic
I'm not sure what point you are making? I agree that Mithraism celebrated Sol Inviticus on Dec. 25, but this holiday was started 125 years after Christmas.


I am presuming that when you say; “but this holiday was started 125 years after Christmas.” You are saying is that Mithraism celebrated of Dec, 25 was 150 years after the celebration of Christmas. March 25 The feast of Annunciation in the Catholic Church was determined by the date of Dec 25, then counted back to march 25. The reason Dec 25 was picked was because the EarlyChurch fathers syncretism many pagan practices into Christianity in order to accommodate the people of the time.
On the other hand G-ds Holidays were banished.

The year and day of the Annunciation cannot be determined as long as new material does not throw more light on the subject. The present date of the feast (25 March) depends upon the date of the older feast of Christmas.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01541c.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01541c.htm)

[Torah]

christians aren't offering sacrifices...and they aren't bound by the law...they're gentiles!! good grief!

Most of 'em are offering prayers, adn thanksgivings!

I know several families who do the tree and decorating, but don't exchange gifts at all with each other, instead they give to a needy family, or make donations to charity in each other's names...

If there were truly something wrong wtih Christmas, don't you believe G-d is strong enough to convict His children of their error???? If He truly had a "problem" with Christmas being celebrated do you think He'd allow the tradition to remain...

Seriously, how many traditions has G-d taken out throughough history? How many practices and festivals?
2tim4:3-4
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrineInstead, to suit their own desires, theywill gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Again; If there intent was to honor the living G-d It would have been OK to declare the new festival to the L-rd, and to present the fellowship offering to Him?

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

I am presuming that when you say; “but this holiday was started 125 years after Christmas.” You are saying is that Mithraism celebrated of Dec, 25 was 150 years after the celebration of Christmas. March 25 The feast of Annunciation in the Catholic Church was determined by the date of Dec 25, then counted back to march 25. The reason Dec 25 was picked was because the EarlyChurch fathers syncretism many pagan practices into Christianity in order to accommodate the people of the time.
On the other hand G-ds Holidays were banished.

The year and day of the Annunciation cannot be determined as long as new material does not throw more light on the subject. The present date of the feast (25 March) depends upon the date of the older feast of Christmas.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01541c.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01541c.htm)


I don't think you are quite getting the concept of the liturgical calender. Early Christians began reading scripture in yearly cycles and eventually read passages or celebrated events on particular days or periods of the year.
Christmas is not a created holiday made up in 4th Century as a compromise to Sol Invictus. Christmas was first celebrated by Christians generally in the spring or fall. That was the period of time they chose to read from the scriptures that spoke about the birth of Jesus or the coming of Him.

In the 4th Century, the Church was trying to universalize the liturgical calender and March 25 and December 25 were picked as anchors for the calender. More than likely because of the symbolism in the solstices.

Christmas was moved to December 25, not created on it.

The Annuciation is the same thing- it's a liturgical calender issue. No one is suggesting that was the date of the Annunication. That is just the day they read from the Gospels that pertain to it.

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

2tim4:3-4
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrineInstead, to suit their own desires, theywill gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Again; If there intent was to honor the living G-d It would have been OK to declare the new festival to the L-rd, and to present the fellowship offering to Him?

Some people would argue the old jewish feast days don't have any relevance to Christians.

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

I felt a huge burden for many years when I used to celebrate Christmas. It just didn't feel right. I don't condemn people for celebrating it but I can't do it myself. I believe that there is so much knowledge about the pagan festivals now because we are approaching the end of the age. G-d said that he was going to provoke the Jewish people to jealousy and he did that for 2000 years. People are waking up and are learning the truth. Jeremiah 10 always stands out for me.

Jeremiah 10:1-16

1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.




Just so you know: Christmas started in Egypt on May 20. It was just moved as part of the standardization of the calender.

[ContraMundum]

I would like to inquire information about Christmas?

(1)Why, on the Georgian calendar, is December 25 picked to celebrate the birth of Messiah?

Because it is allowed, and is a good thing to do.

2)Do you consider Christmas a day that one offers up to G-d, one’s praise and love Offering?

Every day is offered up to God, is it not? Why would we cease offering praise to God on Dec. 25th because some fringe groups see that as a pagan day? Are not all days of the year in some way connected to the old, false religions???????

(3)Does G-d care what we offer up to him? [I am not asking what you think, G-d cares about. I am asking what G-d thinks.]

In the New Covenant we are to offer ourselves as living sacrifices to God, we offer our praise and thanksgiving *always* and we no longer worship Him in Herod's Temple, nor on a mountain, but in spirit and truth. The Tanach confirms in many places the fact that God prefers a holy life to rituals. This is the purpose of the Gospel, is it not? To worship God from the heart?

(4)Why is a “Tree” placed in ones home and adorned?.

(5) why is there a Myth of an elf who wears green & red, has a long white beard, with magical powers to appear in ones home?.

Don't confuse cultural traditions with Christian ones. That would be an embarrasing mistake. Not one religious Christian thinks the Santa myth is true- and I have yet to meet a non-believer who does either.



(6)Why is all this part of the offering to G-d, as the birth of Messiah?



The people of God have always used symbols to praise Him which are to remind us of our love for God and duty to Him. Sometimes, we make the symbols and sometimes God does. For example, the cross is a symbol that reminds us of the sacrifice of Yeshua, a Menorah or a driedel or a latkes reminds us of Chanukah, or a Magen David reminds us of God's promises to Israel. Or, sometimes- but not always- God commands to make symbols, like the cherubim on the ark or the brazen serpent- and these were done for a purpose.

What the Christmas haters need to ask themselves is why they accept religious symbols in their lives yet deny others the same freedom. They adorn their homes with all kinds of symbols.

What they also need to ask themselves is why they hate to see families coming together to give each other gifts, as the magi gave to the Lord (and we are to see Yeshua in others and treat them accordingly) and why they hate to see people celebrating the birth of the Messiah.

I happen to think gift giving, gathering with family and friends and singing praises to Yeshua are not only compatible with the Gospel, but good works when done in faith.

When I hear the Scrooges of the religious world tell me about how wrong Christmas is (eg. JW's) I almost always see miserable, unhappy people who just hate to see others having fun or sharing love, and really hate to see Christians singing praises to God, and most of all hate to be part of the same and actually refrain from being a Christian on that day (by rejecting the opportunity for good works available to them by celebration and gift giving). Are these people saved or merely hung up on their unique take on religion?

[Ivy]

I personally can't understand an MJ-ism that seems to be built on negation, on sitting around tsk-tsking about what Christians do. If your identity is based on dissing others, you don't have much of an identity IMHO.

Celebrating the birth of Yeshua is not prohibited, and it honors the greatest gift that was ever given.

When I see Messianic believers get off their hineys and do a nativity celebration even *half as good as the one I attended on Dec. 24, at Succoth or whenever it's been determined the nativity really was.......I'll cheer!

C'mon! Stop cursing what you consider to be darkness and light your own candle.

[ContraMundum]

The problem with this way of thinking is to say that G-d does not care that we mix pagan origin “things”. And then offer it up to him. If anything from the past we should learn that G-d does care what we offer up to him.

Exodus 32: 5...."Tomorrow there will be a festival to the LORD." 6 So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings.

These people were offering there praise and love offering to G-d. And it was mixed with ?

The problem with this fundamentalist line is this: it smites God in the face and is unrealistic and unscriptural- even anti-Christ.

God is in the redemption business. God gets sinners and makes them saints. He gets broken creation and makes it new. He gets pagan places and makes them holy. If one thinks God hasn't made Dec 25th His own (like every other day of the year) then their God-version is too weak and small.

The church has triumphed over paganism and took the world just as Israel took Canaan from the Canaanites and built altars in a once pagan land. Pagan temples were knocked down and churches built, just as Canaanite high places were destroyed and altars built. Pagan holy days fell into disuse and the church calendar became the norm for society (until modernism took over) just as Israel's holy days became the norm for the land.

If one doesn't believe the church would or can triumph in the same manner as Israel- then one doesn't believe in God or the church's mission. Simple as that. To say paganism has power over the Gospel is Satanism. To say that because a certain day once was pagan that it remains so is blasphemous.

I believe in the triumph of the Good News, not the perpetual endurance of paganism. My God is too mighty and the Devil is too weak for that to occur.

[christinepro]

Just so you know: Christmas started in Egypt on May 20. It was just moved as part of the standardization of the calender. Oh Boy!!! Hmmm!!!. I believe that there are many examples in the Bible that teach us how to conduct ourselves in the past, present and future. The Heathans were cutting down a tree in the forest and adorning it with ornaments. God said not to do it. Why do Christmas? Because everyone else does? It has Pagan roots. They changed the day to honour Yeshua. Shounds like a golden calf to me!!

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Oh Boy!!! Hmmm!!!. I believe that there are many examples in the Bible that teach us how to conduct ourselves in the past, present and future. The Heathans were cutting down a tree in the forest and adorning it with ornaments. God said not to do it. Why do Christmas? Because everyone else does? It has Pagan roots. They changed the day to honour Yeshua. Shounds like a golden calf to me!!

Christmas doesn't have pagan roots- it is rooted in the reading of the bible.

The bible has a lot of instructions- like not to make golden calfs, but at the same time telling Moses to make golden cheribum. Or not to eat pork and then reveal through Peter the double bacon cheeseburger is now A-okay.

The trick is understanding those instructions properly.

[Ivy]

I believe in the triumph of the Good News, not the perpetual endurance of paganism. My God is too mighty and the Devil is too weak for that to occur.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: ROCK ON!


And that, my friends, is the difference between real faith and superstitious fear.

Well done, CM.

[ContraMundum]

I would like to inquire information about Christmas?

Why, on the Georgian calendar, is December 25 picked to celebrate the birth of Messiah?

Mithraism


Sunday was kept holy in honour of Mithra, and the sixteenth of each month was sacred to him as mediator. The 25 December was observed as his birthday, the natalis invicti, the rebirth of the winter-sun, unconquered by the rigours of the season.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm)

Natalis Invicti

The well-known solar feast, however, of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date. For the history of the solar cult, its position in the Roman Empire, and syncretism{the fusion of two or more originally different inflectional forms) with Mithraism,...
The earliest rapprochement of the births of Christ and the sun is in Cyprian, "De pasch. Comp.", xix, "O quam præclare providentia ut illo die quo natus est Sol . . . nasceretur Christus." — "O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born . . . Christ should be born."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm)

----
Do you consider Christmas a day that one offers up to G-d, one’s praise and love
Offering?

Does G-d care what we offer up to him? [I am not asking what you think, G-d cares about. I am asking what G-d thinks.]

Exodus 32: 5...."Tomorrow there will be a festival to the LORD." 6 So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings.

These people were offering there praise and love offering to G-d. And it was mixed with ?

----

Why is a “Tree” placed in ones home and adorned?.
The first printed reference to Christmas trees appeared in Germany in 1531.
Tree worship was common among the pagan Europeans and survived their conversion to Christianity in the Scandinavian customs of decorating the house and barn (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9082436##) with evergreens at the New Year to scare away the devil and of setting up a tree for the birds during Christmastime; it survived further in the custom, also observed in Germany, of placing a Yule tree at an entrance or inside the house during the midwinter holidays.
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9082436/Christmas-tree (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9082436/Christmas-tree)

The Pine Defeats the Oak
After the Christmas holiday began to travel across Europe, the old midwinter feasts became entwined with the new Christian celebration. Most notably, the Germanic tribes still fervently hung onto their tree worshipping rituals, despite the Church’s attempt to draw the people into the Christian fold.
A compromise was reached by the fortuitous and effective substitution of the pine for the oak. By suggesting the pine as the tree of worship, the Church was able to suggest a Christian meaning for the ritual by pointing to the three corners of the pine tree triangular shape as representing the three parts of the holy trinity. This suggestion allowed the pagan tribes to continue their deeply-entrenched custom of tree decoration at midwinter whilst acknowledging the Christian celebration.
http://www.christmaswatch.net/2007/12/pagan-tree-worship-in-suburbia.html (http://www.christmaswatch.net/2007/12/pagan-tree-worship-in-suburbia.html)

http://livingheritage.org/pole-spirits.htm (http://livingheritage.org/pole-spirits.htm)

----

Also, why is there a Myth of an elf who wears green & red, has a long white beard, with magical powers to appear in ones home?. Why is all this part of the offering to G-d, as the birth of Messiah?

http://www.av1611.org/othpubls/santa.html (http://www.av1611.org/othpubls/santa.html)

http://livingheritage.org/pole-spirits.htm (http://livingheritage.org/pole-spirits.htm)

The definition of Myths- (tradition often founded on some fact of nature or an event in the early history of a people and some religious belief of that people. Beliefs concerning their origin, gods, heroes. KJV says "fable" - (to talk or write about as if true)
Look at 2tim4:3-4 to see how the word Myth is used. NIV,


you may say; "I do not bow to other gods". conceder this! what do you do when you put water under your tree in order to keep it alive. or to reach under the tree in order to get presents.


Anyone, repeat ANYONE who equates ANYTHING in Christianity with Mithraism has been deceived by Satan.

Even the Catholic Encyclopedia online gets this wrong,(it's an old version that lacks newer evidence) .

The truth is that there is strong evidence that Dec 25th was celebrated by the early Christians as the day of the birth of the Lord before the Natalis Invicti was an event. Therefore, Christians did not invent this day to replace the pagan one, because the pagan one hadn't become popular yet. This is easily established.

Furthermore, the early church celebrated the annunciation on March 25, and thus Christmas was deemed to be December 25. The idea that Yeshua was born on a Jewish festival is without scriptural warrant and would be a terrible oversight on the part of the Apostles to forget to mention that because they used other feasts Midrashically to demonstrate the prophetic completion in Messiah- why would they omit this vital information?

There is also historical/scriptural precedence to say that Dec 25th is perhaps the actual birth date of Yeshua.

Professor Tommaso Federici, Professor at the Pontifical Urbanian University says :

"As long ago as 1958, the Israeli scholar Shemaryahu Talmon published an in-depth study on the calendar of the Qumran sect, and he reconstructed without the shadow of doubt the order of the sacerdotal rota system for the temple of Jerusalem (1 Chronicles 24, 7-18) in New Testament times. Here the family of Abijah, of which Zechariah was a descendent, father of John the herald and forerunner (Luke 1,5) was required to officiate twice a year, on the days 8-14 of the third month, and on the days 24-30 of the eighth month. This latter period fell at about the end of September. It is not without reason that the Byzantine calendar celebrated 'John's conception' on September 23 and his birth nine months later, on June 24. The 'six months' after the Annunciation established as a liturgical feast on March 25, comes three months before the forerunner's birth, prelude to the nine months in December: December 25 is a date of history"

(From Osservatore Romano 24 Dec 1998)

ANYWAY:

For those actually interested in refuting this old Puritanical/Jehovah's Witness junk, go here. (http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/copycathub.html)

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

That's what I've been saying..

Christmas was created by Christians as the time of year when they read the portions from the bible that are about Christ's birth.

It wasn't a holiday they slapped together to replace a pagan one.

[simchat_torah]

The problem with this fundamentalist line is this: it smites God in the face and is unrealistic and unscriptural- even anti-Christ.Contra, maybe you disagree ... but to call it "anti-Christ" is a bit far don't you think?

Also, I see two arguments presented Contra:

1) You claim Christmas is not of pagan origins
2) Of course its of pagan origins, but it doesn't matter, we do it for G-d now

Might I ask a simple question? Which is it? number 1 or number 2? It is easier for others to address your points if they are not conflicting.

[simchat_torah]

Anyone, repeat ANYONE who equates ANYTHING in Christianity with Mithraism has been deceived by Satan.
Then someone better contact not only the Catholic Encyclopedia editors, but the editors of nearly every encyclopedia to date... and most every historian. They all seem to be dead wrong, and you... the sole light shinning in the darkness... have the one truth that vast numbers of scholars and historians fail to grasp! But not only are you the provider of this sole light, but everyone else is filled with Satan!!!! Oh my!

[simchat_torah]

I'm curious... can someone debate in this subsection without the appropriate icon? Maybe I wasn't clear on the new and recent rules? I thought it was fine, but then it seems the church fathers thread got moved... so I guess not.

Which brings me to a second question... if someone is of the wrong icon to debate, does wearing a "moderator" badge give them special permission to debate though they normally wouldn't be allowed because of their icon?

curious,
Yafet

[visionary]

The idea that Yeshua was born on a Jewish festival is without scriptural warrant and would be a terrible oversight on the part of the Apostles to forget to mention that because they used other feasts Midrashically to demonstrate the prophetic completion in Messiah- why would they omit this vital information? He tabernacled with us.

[christinepro]

Then someone better contact not only the Catholic Encyclopedia editors, but the editors of nearly every encyclopedia to date... and most every historian. They all seem to be dead wrong, and you... the sole light shinning in the darkness... have the one truth that vast numbers of scholars and historians fail to grasp! But not only are you the provider of this sole light, but everyone else is filled with Satan!!!! Oh my!:thumbsup:

[visionary]

I'm curious... can someone debate in this subsection without the appropriate icon? Maybe I wasn't clear on the new and recent rules? I thought it was fine, but then it seems the church fathers thread got moved... so I guess not.

Which brings me to a second question... if someone is of the wrong icon to debate, does wearing a "moderator" badge give them special permission to debate though they normally wouldn't be allowed because of their icon?

curious,
Yafetneither so we will move the thread to debate so that this discussion can continue.

[Lulav]

Some people would argue the old jewish feast days don't have any relevance to Christians.I always wondered about that and how Christian gentiles can call Yeshua the Passover Lamb or the lamb of G-d because it has everything to do with our festivals, and nothing with the Christian ones.

Because it is allowed, and is a good thing to do. Allowed by whom?



Every day is offered up to God, is it not? Why would we cease offering praise to God on Dec. 25th because some fringe groups see that as a pagan day? Are not all days of the year in some way connected to the old, false religions??????? Are you calling those who believe in spiritual purity of worship of the one true G-d, fringe groups? Granted we are but a small minority, a remnant if you will but using the term 'fringe' has fanatical implications I dare say you wouldn't be accusing the brethren of, would you?



In the New Covenant we are to offer ourselves as living sacrifices to God, we offer our praise and thanksgiving *always* and we no longer worship Him in Herod's Temple, nor on a mountain, but in spirit and truth. The Tanach confirms in many places the fact that God prefers a holy life to rituals. This is the purpose of the Gospel, is it not? To worship God from the heart? If you truly believe that then why have all these man made 'holy days" why not just celebrate every day?

Don't confuse cultural traditions with Christian ones. That would be an embarrasing mistake. Not one religious Christian thinks the Santa myth is true- and I have yet to meet a non-believer who does either. Believing and perpetuating are two different things. How many churches have Santa visit? This is worse than believing it is true, this is knowing it is not but taking what rightfully belongs to the L-RD the glory and thanks to him and allowing children to believe it comes from a magical fat man.

For whosoever offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck.and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea..........

The people of God have always used symbols to praise Him which are to remind us of our love for God and duty to Him. Sometimes, we make the symbols and sometimes God does. For example, the cross is a symbol that reminds us of the sacrifice of Yeshua, a Menorah or a driedel or a latkes reminds us of Chanukah, or a Magen David reminds us of God's promises to Israel. Or, sometimes- but not always- God commands to make symbols, like the cherubim on the ark or the brazen serpent- and these were done for a purpose. You are trying to compare oranges to apple computers!~ Just because G-ds people made symbols does not mean it is acceptable to HaShem! The Menorah and the keruvim on the ark were only seen by the priests, they were representing that which was in heaven. They were in a holy place, they were mikvah'd to be allowed to come into the presence, these were not for just anyone and just anywhere. The cross does not remind me of the sacrifice of Yeshua, the blood on the doorposts does that and has since it's first time in Egypt. His victory over death is ( or should be symbolized or thought of ) by an empty grave, not the instrument of death. We are to celebrate life, not death! And the pole with the brazen serpent was to teach our people about what to look for, sin on a pole gives life to those who look upon it, yet it was later destoyed, why? because it itself was being worshipped, just like Christians today worship the cross. Hezekiah , who loved the L-RD and wanted to do things his way: " and he did that which was right in the sight of the L-RD , according to all that his father David did. He removed the high places, and broke the images, and broke into pieces the brazen serpent that Moses had made, for in those days the children of Israel burn incense to it...................."

What the Christmas haters need to ask themselves is why they accept religious symbols in their lives yet deny others the same freedom. They adorn their homes with all kinds of symbols. And that coin has another side, the G-d fearers, the truth lovers. :)

What they also need to ask themselves is why they hate to see families coming together to give each other gifts, as the magi gave to the Lord (and we are to see Yeshua in others and treat them accordingly) and why they hate to see people celebrating the birth of the Messiah. Those gifts were not even given at the birth, but many months later. These were gifts for his kingship and death and burial, but I don't see those kinds of gifts being given. Ipods, satanic music CD's , clothes they don't need, etc, how does this show Messiah to anyone? :sigh:

I happen to think gift giving, gathering with family and friends and singing praises to Yeshua are not only compatible with the Gospel, but good works when done in faith. And you are entitled to your view of this, but this is what Messianics, part of what they are not in Christian groups is about.

When I hear the Scrooges of the religious world tell me about how wrong Christmas is (eg. JW's) I almost always see miserable, unhappy people who just hate to see others having fun or sharing love, and really hate to see Christians singing praises to God, and most of all hate to be part of the same and actually refrain from being a Christian on that day (by rejecting the opportunity for good works available to them by celebration and gift giving). Are these people saved or merely hung up on their unique take on religion?Thats quite a lot of judgement there on how these people feel and what they do. I prefer to go by the Masters words and keep my works in secret so my Father in heaven will see.

The problem with this fundamentalist line is this: it smites God in the face and is unrealistic and unscriptural- even anti-Christ. How does wanting to follow G-d word as HE SEES IT, smite him? I see how that glorifys him, especially since you are demonstrating what a sacrifice it is to us, many who used to celebrate this and now know better, and cannot serve ourselves and our good feelings over what HaShem thinks. We are ridiculed for it, called names, scrooge, Christmas haters, having my salvation questioned, being unsciptural and an anti-Christ and that is just from you in this thread!

God is in the redemption business. God gets sinners and makes them saints. He gets broken creation and makes it new. He gets pagan places and makes them holy. If one thinks God hasn't made Dec 25th His own (like every other day of the year) then their God-version is too weak and small. haShem is a G-d of righteousness. There are what, a billion CHristians in the whole world? Yet Yeshua said, Straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads to LIFE, and few there be that find it. I have never heard of 1/6 of anything being referred to as 'few'.

The church has triumphed over paganism and took the world just as Israel took Canaan from the Canaanites and built altars in a once pagan land. Pagan temples were knocked down and churches built, just as Canaanite high places were destroyed and altars built. Pagan holy days fell into disuse and the church calendar became the norm for society (until modernism took over) just as Israel's holy days became the norm for the land. :eek:

If one doesn't believe the church would or can triumph in the same manner as Israel- then one doesn't believe in God or the church's mission. Simple as that. To say paganism has power over the Gospel is Satanism. To say that because a certain day once was pagan that it remains so is blasphemous. That should be true, but it's not, Christianity had a chance to spread the good news, instead it choose to use it as a weapon, for conquering peoples. The message surely can stand on it's own and to those whose hearts have been prepared by G-d to receive it, they would. But that didn't bring in enough numbers, so it had to be softened, watered down, the pagan rituals accommodated. This is the leaven that leaveneth the whole lump, this is watering down what was once pure. You can't take something clean and add it to something unclean and expect it to remain clean, it doesn't work that way. A quick read through the first few chapters of Revelation will show you what Yeshua thought of mixed clean with unclean.

I believe in the triumph of the Good News, not the perpetual endurance of paganism. My God is too mighty and the Devil is too weak for that to occur.Do you believe we are living in kingdom on earth right now?

[Lulav]

Anyone, repeat ANYONE who equates ANYTHING in Christianity with Mithraism has been deceived by Satan.If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck and lays duck eggs...............

Mithra's birth is celebrated on the Winter Solstice.
Jesus birth is celebrated within 48 hours of this

Historians are unsure exactly when Christians first began celebrating the Nativity of Christ. However, most scholars believe that Christmas originated in the 4th century as a Christian substitute for pagan celebrations of the winter solstice.

Before the introduction of Christmas, each year beginning on December 17 Romans honored Saturn, the ancient god of agriculture, in a festival called Saturnalia. This festival lasted for seven days and included the winter solstice, which usually occurred around December 25 on the ancient Julian calendar.
There is no date mentioned of Yeshua's birth nor any commandment to celebrate it ( for how can you celebrate that which was from the foundation of the world like a regular human being?)

The Roman Catholic Church chose December 25 as the day for the Feast of the Nativity in order to give Christian meaning to existing pagan rituals.
For example, the Church replaced festivities honoring the birth of Mithra, the god of light, with festivities to commemorate the birth of Jesus, whom the Bible calls the light of the world.

The Catholic Church hoped to draw pagans into its religionby allowing them to continue their revelry while simultaneously honoring the birthday of Jesus.
Ah, here's where our "Puritanical mindset ' comes from:

During the Reformation of the 16th century, Protestants challenged the authority of the Catholic Church, including its toleration of surviving pagan traditions during Christmas festivities. For a brief time during the 17th century, Puritans banned Christmas in England and in some English colonies in North America because they felt it had become a season best known for gambling, flamboyant public behavior, and overindulgence in food and drink.How did Mithras get introduced to Rome pantheon of gods?

The Roman army first encountered the cult of Mithras in Persia (modern Iran) during the reign of the emperor Nero although its origins in India have been traced back to 1400 BC. One of the many mystery cults that the Romans introduced from the east, Mithraism first appealed to slaves and freedmen but with Mithras's title Invictus, the cult's emphasis on truth, honour and courage, and its demand for discipline soon led to Mithras becoming a god of soldiers and traders. The Romans held a festival on December 25 called Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, "the birthday of the unconquered sun."Some archaeological info (http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/archive/mithras/text.htm)

[Gwenyfur]

Because it is allowed, and is a good thing to do.



Every day is offered up to God, is it not? Why would we cease offering praise to God on Dec. 25th because some fringe groups see that as a pagan day? Are not all days of the year in some way connected to the old, false religions???????



In the New Covenant we are to offer ourselves as living sacrifices to God, we offer our praise and thanksgiving *always* and we no longer worship Him in Herod's Temple, nor on a mountain, but in spirit and truth. The Tanach confirms in many places the fact that God prefers a holy life to rituals. This is the purpose of the Gospel, is it not? To worship God from the heart?



Don't confuse cultural traditions with Christian ones. That would be an embarrasing mistake. Not one religious Christian thinks the Santa myth is true- and I have yet to meet a non-believer who does either.





The people of God have always used symbols to praise Him which are to remind us of our love for God and duty to Him. Sometimes, we make the symbols and sometimes God does. For example, the cross is a symbol that reminds us of the sacrifice of Yeshua, a Menorah or a driedel or a latkes reminds us of Chanukah, or a Magen David reminds us of God's promises to Israel. Or, sometimes- but not always- God commands to make symbols, like the cherubim on the ark or the brazen serpent- and these were done for a purpose.

What the Christmas haters need to ask themselves is why they accept religious symbols in their lives yet deny others the same freedom. They adorn their homes with all kinds of symbols.

What they also need to ask themselves is why they hate to see families coming together to give each other gifts, as the magi gave to the Lord (and we are to see Yeshua in others and treat them accordingly) and why they hate to see people celebrating the birth of the Messiah.

I happen to think gift giving, gathering with family and friends and singing praises to Yeshua are not only compatible with the Gospel, but good works when done in faith.

When I hear the Scrooges of the religious world tell me about how wrong Christmas is (eg. JW's) I almost always see miserable, unhappy people who just hate to see others having fun or sharing love, and really hate to see Christians singing praises to God, and most of all hate to be part of the same and actually refrain from being a Christian on that day (by rejecting the opportunity for good works available to them by celebration and gift giving). Are these people saved or merely hung up on their unique take on religion?

I personally can't understand an MJ-ism that seems to be built on negation, on sitting around tsk-tsking about what Christians do. If your identity is based on dissing others, you don't have much of an identity IMHO.

Celebrating the birth of Yeshua is not prohibited, and it honors the greatest gift that was ever given.

When I see Messianic believers get off their hineys and do a nativity celebration even *half as good as the one I attended on Dec. 24, at Succoth or whenever it's been determined the nativity really was.......I'll cheer!

C'mon! Stop cursing what you consider to be darkness and light your own candle.

The problem with this fundamentalist line is this: it smites God in the face and is unrealistic and unscriptural- even anti-Christ.

God is in the redemption business. God gets sinners and makes them saints. He gets broken creation and makes it new. He gets pagan places and makes them holy. If one thinks God hasn't made Dec 25th His own (like every other day of the year) then their God-version is too weak and small.

The church has triumphed over paganism and took the world just as Israel took Canaan from the Canaanites and built altars in a once pagan land. Pagan temples were knocked down and churches built, just as Canaanite high places were destroyed and altars built. Pagan holy days fell into disuse and the church calendar became the norm for society (until modernism took over) just as Israel's holy days became the norm for the land.

If one doesn't believe the church would or can triumph in the same manner as Israel- then one doesn't believe in God or the church's mission. Simple as that. To say paganism has power over the Gospel is Satanism. To say that because a certain day once was pagan that it remains so is blasphemous.

I believe in the triumph of the Good News, not the perpetual endurance of paganism. My God is too mighty and the Devil is too weak for that to occur.

I'd rep both of ya if I had any left

[simchat_torah]

Why would we cease offering praise to God on Dec. 25th because some fringe groups see that as a pagan day?
Those darn historians, scholars, and encyclopedias! Always pointing out the pesky origins and influences from paganism. But I don't think anyone here says cease offering praise to G-d... merely to stop offering praise in the same way that the pagans do.

Unless you're speaking of some fringe group that doesn't post here on this forum?

What the Christmas haters need to ask themselves is why they accept religious symbols in their lives yet deny others the same freedom. I don't think that (for example) Lulav is forcing you to take the Christmas tree out of your house. She herself believes with sincerity that such a thing would defile her own personal worship. She shares it here on the forums, and it seems you... just as much as she... are preaching what you personally believe. So please don't go around pointing fingers declaring someone is limiting your freedom. That is simply an unfair accusation.

[ContraMundum]

Contra, maybe you disagree ... but to call it "anti-Christ" is a bit far don't you think?

No. I believe stuff, ST. I'm prepared to call it like I see it.

Also, I see two arguments presented Contra:

1) You claim Christmas is not of pagan origins
2) Of course its of pagan origins, but it doesn't matter, we do it for G-d now

Might I ask a simple question? Which is it? number 1 or number 2? It is easier for others to address your points if they are not conflicting.

You've read it wrong.

1) is true, and I never said 2).

Perhaps this is a bit confusing for you. Let me put it simply. a) everything in religion (including yours) has pagan connotations if you want to find it. b) But, God is bigger than paganism. Thus: Christmas does not have pagan origins- but some will find it anyway. Those who find "pagan connections" miss the point because it's irrelevant due to God's power.

I hope that clears it up for you.

[ContraMundum]

Then someone better contact not only the Catholic Encyclopedia editors, but the editors of nearly every encyclopedia to date... and most every historian. They all seem to be dead wrong, and you... the sole light shinning in the darkness... have the one truth that vast numbers of scholars and historians fail to grasp! But not only are you the provider of this sole light, but everyone else is filled with Satan!!!! Oh my!

Must you *always* make it personal when you have nothing positive to contribute?

You've not been reading carefully. Please reconsider your personal mockery of me.

The online Catholic Encyclopedia that the poster sourced was written in 1913. It has since been superceeded by a newer version, and even then, like all encyclopedias, it is being revised.

The latest research (also from the Vatican, just to make it clear that I am demonstrating development from the article cited) I have quoted already.
I thought that was obvious.

So, rather than think I am inventing my own "one truth" over and above the "vast numbers of scholars and historians" who "fail to grasp" what I am saying I have quoted the same groups leading researcher on the topic. In other words, I'm up to speed on this topic.

[ContraMundum]

Allowed by whom?

God. Don't you believe God left such authority to the church????? :confused:

Anyway, I'm inclined to think that Dec. 25 was the birth of Christ, or maybe perhaps Jan 6th.

Are you calling those who believe in spiritual purity of worship of the one true G-d, fringe groups?

No, no, we who worship God in spirit and truth, well, we're the majority. The fringe groups may indeed worship God properly, I won't make a judgement on that. But, it is the fringe groups constantly accuse everyone else of being wrong. That's why they're called "sects" and "cults".

Then again, I don't think anyone here is in that kind of religion, are they??

If you truly believe that then why have all these man made 'holy days" why not just celebrate every day?

I do.

Believing and perpetuating are two different things. How many churches have Santa visit? This is worse than believing it is true, this is knowing it is not but taking what rightfully belongs to the L-RD the glory and thanks to him and allowing children to believe it comes from a magical fat man.

I've never heard of Santa in a church, or mentioned in prayer (other than St Nicholas- who is not the 20thC Santa of the shopping malls.) I have no idea what kind of churches you've visited though.

You are trying to compare oranges to apple computers!~ Just because G-ds people made symbols does not mean it is acceptable to HaShem!

No one said that.

The Menorah and the keruvim on the ark were only seen by the priests, they were representing that which was in heaven.

There are different menorahs and many other symbols people use.

The cross does not remind me of the sacrifice of Yeshua,

I'm sorry to hear that.

Those gifts were not even given at the birth, but many months later. These were gifts for his kingship and death and burial, but I don't see those kinds of gifts being given. Ipods, satanic music CD's , clothes they don't need, etc, how does this show Messiah to anyone? :sigh:

Encourage people to give religious gifts, rather than forget giving altogether and miss the opportunity for a mitzvah. Give to charity, give to the needy. Goodness- what a great opportunity Christmas offers!

And you are entitled to your view of this, but this is what Messianics, part of what they are not in Christian groups is about.

I'm not familiar with any "messianics" in my part of the world that reject so much good in life. Most of us tend to see the good in Christmas and make use of it. Sure, we reject certain aspects, but it is a wonderful time to get together, remember the incarnation, give gifts, love each other, and have meaningful fellowship with our Gentile believer brethren.

How does wanting to follow G-d word as HE SEES IT, smite him?

That begs the question, doesn't it? I don't think the rejection of charity and love is God's will.

The point is: if you surrender all your times to the alleged power of "pagan holidays", then you are saying that God hasn't redeemed the times, and you'll have nothing left. That's bad.


I see how that glorifys him, especially since you are demonstrating what a sacrifice it is to us, many who used to celebrate this and now know better, and cannot serve ourselves and our good feelings over what HaShem thinks. We are ridiculed for it, called names, scrooge, Christmas haters, having my salvation questioned, being unsciptural and an anti-Christ and that is just from you in this thread!

No. Not really. I'm saying that people are deceived by the false teachings of the haters if they buy into the "copycat" doctrines. It's that simple. The same arguments used against holy days like Christmas and easter (eg. that they are of pagan origin) are used against Christ Himself and the religion of our people, the Jews. You can't accept it, because the whole thesis is flawed, and if you "pick and choose" from that idea, you are using a flawed basis. Please go back and read the links I've provided before you accept the judgement of the JW's and the sects.

haShem is a G-d of righteousness. There are what, a billion CHristians in the whole world? Yet Yeshua said, Straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads to LIFE, and few there be that find it. I have never heard of 1/6 of anything being referred to as 'few'.

:eek:

There's a billion Christians in the world- thank God. They won't all be saved. However, just because one is in the minority opinion can never make one right. In fact, it often can mean the exact opposite. Billions can know the truth and still not live by it. A couple of dozen can create their own truth and tell the others they are wrong because they are in the minority and claim to know more than the billion, but that doesn't make them right.

That should be true, but it's not, Christianity had a chance to spread the good news, instead it choose to use it as a weapon, for conquering peoples.

Oh brother. That's right. It's all about the sword. The great evangelists like Wesley, Whitefield, Francis of Assisi, Edwards, Billy Graham, ad infinitum were all warlords, were they?

I can't believe you'd buy into that kind of thinking. What kind of stuff do you read??????

The message surely can stand on it's own

It has and does.

Do you believe we are living in kingdom on earth right now?

Of course- to a point, eg. as a surety. We were told that we are not to go looking for the literal earthly Kingdom, because the Kingdom was within us (or among us, same Greek word- Lk 17:20,21) and that the Kingdom of God could be sought now (Matt 6:33) , that the Kingdom of God is righteousness, joy and peace in the Holy Spirit (Rom 14:17), etc., etc, etc. I'm sure you know the verses.

However, there is a future Kingdom to come as well.

What's that got to do with anything?

[simchat_torah]

Must you *always* make it personal when you have nothing positive to contribute?
I think I have contributed plenty more than you ever have on these forums, but that is neither here nor there. However, you ARE the one who went spouting off that these people are worshipping an anti-Christ and these people are decieved by Satan.
You've not been reading carefully. Please reconsider your personal mockery of me.
Here's the funny thing: My post was the ONE post that pretended that your words were serious. My post was the ONE post that showed what you portray. If you don't like it, then I suggest not making such ridiculous claims (ie: these people are deceived by satan, etc).

The online Catholic Encyclopedia that the poster sourced was written in 1913. It has since been superceeded by a newer version, and even then, like all encyclopedias, it is being revised.
And the new revision, most likely just like every prior revision, will essentially state the same thing. So?
The latest research (also from the Vatican, just to make it clear that I am demonstrating development from the article cited) I have quoted already.
I thought that was obvious.
It was obvious that you were desperate and found some fringe (fringe in regards to scholarship) source that finally agreed with you and you frantically posted that one source... purposefully ignoring the overwhelming bulk of research.

Yup, it was obvious.

So, rather than think I am inventing my own "one truth" over and above the "vast numbers of scholars and historians" who "fail to grasp" what I am saying I have quoted the same groups leading researcher on the topic. In other words, I'm up to speed on this topic.I'll let the readers decide. I won't be so pompous as to make a call as to which side is "winning" this thread and who is posting relatively reliable scholastic material.

[simchat_torah]

No, no, we who worship God in spirit and truth, well, we're the majority. The fringe groups may indeed worship God properly, I won't make a judgement on that. But, it is the fringe groups constantly accuse everyone else of being wrong. That's why they're called "sects" and "cults".

Then again, I don't think anyone here is in that kind of religion, are they?? Then why did you take the time to color those who choose not to follow the Christmas traditions in such a manner? Knowing in full well that those of this subforum don't celebrate Christmas.

[Gwenyfur]

That's just it....some of "us" still do...be it because of marriage to gentiles, or family ties or whatever other reasons...

Not exactly warm fuzzy welcomes having someone who doesn't even claim Y'shua as their Messiah telling us it's a sin adn we're goin' to hell for setting aside a day to celebrate His birth...

What does it matter to you what a follower of Messiah does?

[HephzibahBenJudah]

That's just it....some of "us" still do...be it because of marriage to gentiles, or family ties or whatever other reasons...

Not exactly warm fuzzy welcomes having someone who doesn't even claim Y'shua as their Messiah telling us it's a sin adn we're goin' to hell for setting aside a day to celebrate His birth...

What does it matter to you what a follower of Messiah does?
That about sums that one up...I agree. :thumbsup:

[ContraMundum]

Then why did you take the time to color those who choose not to follow the Christmas traditions in such a manner? Knowing in full well that those of this subforum don't celebrate Christmas.

What is your point on posting in this thread? Nit picking? Harrasment of Christians?

[ContraMundum]

I think I have contributed plenty more than you ever have on these forums,

It's about quality, not quantity.

Here's the funny thing: My post was the ONE post that pretended that your words were serious. My post was the ONE post that showed what you portray. If you don't like it, then I suggest not making such ridiculous claims (ie: these people are deceived by satan, etc).

Note: you "pretended" my words were serious. That's disengenuous, is it not? Why would you want to do such a thing?

ST- I do think people are deceived by Satan. I've mentioned why and given account. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to why that's not possible. Why is it ludicrous to you that a person could be deceived by Satan?

And the new revision, most likely just like every prior revision, will essentially state the same thing. So?
It was obvious that you were desperate and found some fringe (fringe in regards to scholarship) source that finally agreed with you and you frantically posted that one source... purposefully ignoring the overwhelming bulk of research.

Um.....right. What "overwhelming bulk of research" are you alluding to?

Shall we discuss our sources? Let's deconstruct the arguments of our sources. I'm up for it, are you?

Now, seeing that you think this is so absurd-
Pray, do tell us why this scholar is wrong, in detail:

I quote *again*-

Professor Tommaso Federici, Professor at the Pontifical Urbanian University says :

"As long ago as 1958, the Israeli scholar Shemaryahu Talmon published an in-depth study on the calendar of the Qumran sect, and he reconstructed without the shadow of doubt the order of the sacerdotal rota system for the temple of Jerusalem (1 Chronicles 24, 7-18) in New Testament times. Here the family of Abijah, of which Zechariah was a descendent, father of John the herald and forerunner (Luke 1,5) was required to officiate twice a year, on the days 8-14 of the third month, and on the days 24-30 of the eighth month. This latter period fell at about the end of September. It is not without reason that the Byzantine calendar celebrated 'John's conception' on September 23 and his birth nine months later, on June 24. The 'six months' after the Annunciation established as a liturgical feast on March 25, comes three months before the forerunner's birth, prelude to the nine months in December: December 25 is a date of history"

(From Osservatore Romano 24 Dec 1998)

Please explain why this guy is wrong, why the Israeli scholar is wrong and why you think it is important for Christians to listen to you that they are wrong (now THAT would be interesting!).

It's pretty convincing to me- very much so. It's scriptural and historical and some of the reasearch is non-Christian. The Osservatore Romano is no rag, either. These guys make a darn good point.

The onus is on you to show us all why these guys are wrong. I'll tell you what- I'll even forward your proof to the published author! Just prove it and I'll keep my fax on.

I'll let the readers decide. I won't be so pompous as to make a call as to which side is "winning" this thread and who is posting relatively reliable scholastic material.

You haven't contributed anything academic to this thread, ST. I've just checked and double checked. Not one source, not one citation- just stuff about me. Please contribute or leave us be. At present your contribution to this thread just looks anti-anything Christian and anti-Contra and could even (from post #6) be considered baiting.

[ContraMundum]

I don't think that (for example) Lulav is forcing you to take the Christmas tree out of your house. She herself believes with sincerity that such a thing would defile her own personal worship. She shares it here on the forums, and it seems you... just as much as she... are preaching what you personally believe. So please don't go around pointing fingers declaring someone is limiting your freedom. That is simply an unfair accusation.

Here is the issue (and another poster has already mentioned this above).

I am a Jew who is a Christian- in other words, a Messianic Jew. I keep the Jewish festivals and the Church's. I don't have a Christmas tree or do the Santa thing. Never have. It's not part of my religion. My Christmas this year was centered around organising the church's luncheon for the needy and preaching on the incarnation. That's part of my religion. How is that pagan? It isn't.

Yet, I hear things from some people claiming that this is all some pagan lie. But, I've been around a while, and I've dealt with all this, and know that it isn't paganism (the arguments are paper tigers, all you need is an open heart and mind to see it), this is a time to love each other. Then, I hear someone who has left the faith of Messiah try to silence me. (What's the word again for people that leave the faith?). What's with that?

[Ivy]

"Oh brother. That's right. It's all about the sword. The great evangelists like Wesley, Whitefield, Francis of Assisi, Edwards, Billy Graham, ad infinitum were all warlords, were they?"--ContraMundum

lol

[Ivy]

But not only are you the provider of this sole light, but everyone else is filled with Satan!!!! Oh my!

Simhat, you can be such a drama queen sometimes. C'mon, try the decaf & relax a little.

[Ivy]

Encourage people to give religious gifts, rather than forget giving altogether and miss the opportunity for a mitzvah. Give to charity, give to the needy. Goodness- what a great opportunity Christmas offers!



I'm not familiar with any "messianics" in my part of the world that reject so much good in life. Most of us tend to see the good in Christmas and make use of it. Sure, we reject certain aspects, but it is a wonderful time to get together, remember the incarnation, give gifts, love each other, and have meaningful fellowship with our Gentile believer brethren.



That begs the question, doesn't it? I don't think the rejection of charity and love is God's will.



:thumbsup: Exactly.

I think it's just a wonderful way to spend Dec. 25 to be doing a luncheon for needy families. Yeshua himself was needy; he was born in a barn because no one had any room for him. It's a time to open our hearts to those for whom the world has no room.

And also.....I use that day to honor my parents. It's important to them to see me that day and for me not to dishonor them. After all they've done for me, I like to gratify their wishes and show up with my "presence" and some "presents".

[simchat_torah]

What is your point on posting in this thread? Nit picking? Harrasment of Christians?Considering I've been here years longer than you, I've gained numerous friends along the way who I enjoy discussing spitituality with. Note: I do not enter other sections of the Christian Forums.

No matter how you'd like to belittle me, I am not here to harass anyone.

In light of all this, I find your statements to be soooo IRONIC:Must you *always* make it personal when you have nothing positive to contribute?
You are the one who makes things "personal". You are the one who makes derrogatory comments about my presence here, etc. Take a long hard look in the mirror.

It's about quality, not quantity.Yes, and I have dozens of threads that I've started over the years designed to engage in deeper thought. Having attempted to leave a few times and received numerous emails/pm's asking me to stay, I feel justified in stating: my posts over the years have brought something to these forums.

Note: you "pretended" my words were serious. That's disengenuous, is it not? Why would you want to do such a thing? [quote]To open your eyes. You blatantly stated that these peole are following an anti-Christ, and that they are deceived by Satan. Since no one can in their right mind take these words seriously, I had to show you how ridiculous these words and attacks are (especially made by someone who isn't even allowed to debate in the MJ forum!).

[quote]ST- I do think people are deceived by Satan. I've mentioned why and given account. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to why that's not possible. Why is it ludicrous to you that a person could be deceived by Satan?Someone chooses to purify their worship practices and this suddenly makes them deceived by Satan, and worshipping the ANTICHRIST?!?!?!?!??

You don't expect us to take you seriously, do you?

You ARE just trolling, right? You don't really believe this, do you?

Please explain why this guy is wrongIts not my fight, and I don't really care. I was merely pointing out originally that you called these people fringe, while you are quoting the VAST MINORITY of scholars to prove your point. I'm not interested in the slightest in a debate regarding the substance of what they say. I may change my mind depending on how this thread shapes up.
You haven't contributed anything academic to this thread, ST.Nor do I have an obligation to, because: I HAVEN'T TAKEN A SIDE.


Yup, go back and read. Have I stated anything regarding December 25th, paganism, and/or Jesus' birth? Nope. I merely came to the defense when you were acting childish and mean against my friends here in this thread.

Nothing more.


this is a time to love each other. Then, I hear someone who has left the faith of Messiah try to silence me.Take careful note: I have not tried to silence you. Please be cautious to read what I say. I have not told you to shut up, nor have I told you that you are wrong and we shouldn't love one another during special times of the year. Nor have I stated anything against your argument regarding Christmas, and doing good deeds to our fellow man. Nada. So don't put words in my mouth. Don't make this into some holy quest that doesn't exist.

If you want to claim that Christmas is not of pagan origins, and even cite sources... fine. But don't try to make the claim that is the "norm" amongst the scholastic community.

If you want to claim that Christmas is a good time to show good will towards man, fine... but don't blast people who try to worship G-d in truth by saying they are "Deceived by Satan" and "following the anti-Christ."

I have not argued against anything else.


Now, how else would you like to color me? What other evil ways can you find in my posts?

[simchat_torah]

Simhat, you can be such a drama queen sometimes. C'mon, try the decaf & relax a little.
Come come now, surely you can see the sarcasm? ;)

[Henaynei]

Some people would argue the old jewish feast days don't have any relevance to Christians.they would be wrong and blind and ignorant

[ContraMundum]

Considering I've been here years longer than you, I've gained numerous friends along the way who I enjoy discussing spitituality with. Note: I do not enter other sections of the Christian Forums.

Why are you here then? Emotional ties with Christianity? Do you need validation for your departure? Explain. A number of us are puzzled. It's very difficult to figure this out from our perspective. I like you. I do. I want you to post here- often. But I don't know why you do sometimes- especially in this thread, starting at #6. It's weird.

No matter how you'd like to belittle me, I am not here to harass anyone.

I feel harassed. So do a few others.

In light of all this, I find your statements to be soooo IRONIC:You are the one who makes things "personal". You are the one who makes derrogatory comments about my presence here, etc. Take a long hard look in the mirror.

ST- A friend of mine and I said that you would say this and you've made prophets of us. I'd like you to kindly go through this thread and see your own posts. They are mostly about me, starting at post #6. How on earth can you honestly think that I'm the instigator of getting "personal"? It's weird that you say this kind of stuff, ST. Ever heard of "projection"? (No, I don't mean at the cinema either).

I feel justified in stating: my posts over the years have brought something to these forums.

Not on this thread. I won't dispute in the past you have made good contributions.

To open your eyes. You blatantly stated that these peole are following an anti-Christ, and that they are deceived by Satan. Since no one can in their right mind take these words seriously, I had to show you how ridiculous these words and attacks are (especially made by someone who isn't even allowed to debate in the MJ forum!).

They're ridiculous to you- show me why it is ridiculous to state that people can be decieved by Satan. This is the second time I'm asking you to give account for your words directed at me.

BTW- I don't need a young man to "open my eyes", because FYI- lots of people agree with me on this point. You are in fact being called to enlighten many of us on this matter.

Someone chooses to purify their worship practices and this suddenly makes them deceived by Satan, and worshipping the ANTICHRIST?!?!?!?!?? p

If I believed that, it would be ridiculous. But, I think pure worship is ideal. Read again. The deception is that people are accusing Christianity of being a pagan religion (you should understand this, as this is your position. If you say one element of Christianity is from the religion of Mythra, then you need to logically follow other alleged parallels with this religion, which leads some poor souls to ruin). I'm saying that's a lie, and I've given plenty of info to prove it.

Quit mis-quoting.

You don't expect us to take you seriously, do you?

Many here do. You apparently think your opinion is valid for everyone. Am I right?

Its not my fight, and I don't really care. I was merely pointing out originally that you called these people fringe, while you are quoting the VAST MINORITY of scholars to prove your point. I'm not interested in the slightest in a debate regarding the substance of what they say. I may change my mind depending on how this thread shapes up.

Wow...so let me get this right...a) it's not your fight, b) you don't care, c) you mistakenly think I called people fringe when I specifically said otherwise, d) you claim a vast majority of scholarship but won't say who or take up the challenge to discuss it e) you're not interested in debating anything but you may change your mind. Right?

So- why are you posting? Trying to be my parent or something?

Nor do I have an obligation to, because: I HAVEN'T TAKEN A SIDE.

OK...so you saying that the "vast majority" of scholars think Christmas is Mythraism but that's not taking a side? Hello?

Yup, go back and read. Have I stated anything regarding December 25th, paganism, and/or Jesus' birth? Nope. I merely came to the defense when you were acting childish and mean against my friends here in this thread.

So, the reason you posted is because you think you have a parenting role over a man older than you who just happens to have strong beliefs that disagree with yours and who's prepared to discuss it at length? And you call me childish?

As we say Down Under- don't stand in the wind. (ask an Aussie about that).

Take careful note: I have not tried to silence you. Please be cautious to read what I say. I have not told you to shut up, nor have I told you that you are wrong and we shouldn't love one another during special times of the year. Nor have I stated anything against your argument regarding Christmas, and doing good deeds to our fellow man. Nada. So don't put words in my mouth. Don't make this into some holy quest that doesn't exist.

Speaking of holy quests......what are you doing on this thread ST? Correcting the "dumb Christian", right?

If you want to claim that Christmas is not of pagan origins, and even cite sources... fine. But don't try to make the claim that is the "norm" amongst the scholastic community.

I never said that. I just said recent research is pretty convincing.

What you seemed to have forgotten (or probably were never taught) is that traditions have origins, and occasionally, the origins are misplaced. The tradition continues, but people can't remember exactly why. Then, as I see it in this case, people try to figure it out, and get it wrong until so