The Star of Bethlehem- What was it?

[Lulav]

Since I know that 'some' Messianics and Jews don't do anything for Christmas I thought I would post something check out and ponder for all. I was watching a Christian station the other night and saw this special unadvertised program on the Bethlehem star. It was from a lawyer who happened upon this conundrum, What exactly was the Bethlehem star?

Presented with scholarly scientific research, he takes you through the night skies of Persia ( Modern day Iraq) 2000+ years ago and shows some amazing happenings in the sky then.

Enjoy this site (http://www.bethlehemstar.net/)

there are other ways to view the site depending on what kind of internet personality you are, go here (http://www.bethlehemstar.net/howto.htm)

Get a preview (http://thestarofbethlehemmovie.com/) of the DVD

Don't forget to come back here (http://christianforums.com/t6625987-the-star-of-bethlehem-what-was-it.html#post41863940) and discuss it. :)

[Henaynei]

that was interesting - I could only read about 3/4 though as the print is so tiny.... but it suggests many things ....

[Lulav]

that was interesting - I could only read about 3/4 though as the print is so tiny.... but it suggests many things ....
Really? Sorry you had trouble, they do it like that for printablilitys sake but if you have Firefox you can increase it up to this size below, or larger. :)

If the Star was a real historical event, why are we learning of the evidence only now?

[Henaynei]

I got as far as his dissertation on possible event surrounding Yeshua's sacrifice... I read all the parts about the star at his birth :)

[Steve Petersen]

I believe it was a triple conjuntion of Jupiter and Saturn near the star Regulus in Leo. That conjunction happened three times over 18 months from 3 to 2 BC. The last one was at or near the Feast of Tabernacles.

Interesting that it is tradition that evening begins with the sighting of three stars.

Read The Star that Astonished the World if you can find a copy.

[Tonks]

In the Orthodox tradition the star was an Angel.

Embrace the miraculous...

[rdale]

Lulav, I just wanted to say thanks for posting the links. I never heard any of this before... fascinating! :thumbsup:

[bluemarkus]

it was for shure a star /planetary constellation.
the babylonians were very good astrologers

[Steve Petersen]

Embrace the miraculous...

Why?

[visionary]

star of bethlehem (http://www.space.com/spacewatch/star_bethlehem_021220.html)

[Henaynei]

In the Orthodox tradition the star was an Angel.

Embrace the miraculous...I thbought this thread was all about a miracle, no? an angel is no miracle.... :)

[Lulav]

In the Orthodox tradition the star was an Angel.

Embrace the miraculous...I've never heard of this before. But if it 'was' an angel wouldn't everyone be aware of it? Not just the sages who studied the skies. :scratch:

Herod would not have had to inquire about this as it would be knowledge made available to him. This star appeared for many months, sigthing of an angel for that long would have made all the ancient records I would suspect. :)

The heavens declare the glory of G-d and the firmament showeth his handiwork. Psalms

[Lulav]

Lulav, I just wanted to say thanks for posting the links. I never heard any of this before... fascinating! :thumbsup: You're welcome! :)

star of bethlehem (http://www.space.com/spacewatch/star_bethlehem_021220.html) Yes, he used The Starry night program. :)

[Lulav]

it was for shure a star /planetary constellation.
the babylonians were very good astrologersWhat do the Babylonians have to do with it?:scratch:

[visionary]

Astrologers aka Magi from Babylon.

[Lulav]

The bible account only says 'from the East', it also does not call them astrologers.

My belief is that these are Jewish men that stayed in the East ( could be Babylon, could be Sushan) after most returned during the times of Ezra and Nehemiah. Who else would be concerned with honoring a newborn King of the Jews? ;)

[Henaynei]

The bible account only says 'from the East', it also does not call them astrologers.

My belief is that these are Jewish men that stayed in the East ( could be Babylon, could be Sushan) after most returned during the times of Ezra and Nehemiah. Who else would be concerned with honoring a newborn King of the Jews? ;)The KJV calls them "wise men" and the greek magos (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3097&version=kjv) means:


the name given by the Babylonians (Chaldeans), Medes, Persians, and others, to the wise men, teachers, priests, physicians, astrologers, seers, interpreters of dreams, augers, soothsayers, sorcerers etc.
the oriental wise men (astrologers) who, having discovered by the rising of a remarkable star that the Messiah had just been born, came to Jerusalem to worship him
a false prophet and sorcererSo - astrology was a science in those days --- they did not know from astronomy .... an astrologer studied the stars to determine the movements and meanings. From B'resheet HaShem said the stars would be for signs (NOT the movers of events, the contemporary meaning of astrology, but the signifiers of events). The sun, moon and stars have at least 4 functions: to tell day & night, to signify events as G-d wills, to mark the seasons, and to mark the days (plural, as in numbers of days, i.e. in a month) and years ....

B'resheet 1
14 G-d said, "Let there be lights in the dome of the sky:
to divide the day from the night;
let them be for signs,
seasons,
days and years;
15 and let them be for lights in the dome of the sky to give light to the earth"; and that is how it was. 16 G-d made the two great lights - the larger light to rule the day and the smaller light to rule the night - and the stars. 17 God put them in the dome of the sky to give light to the earth, 18 to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 So there was evening, and there was morning, a fourth day.

Those who studied the heavens and the lights therein were looking at all these things ... and were known as "wise men" or magi or ....

Babylon was:
to the east
the place where the Jews had been taken (Book of Esther) and where many stayed (Ezra/Nehemiah)
the major seat of science, knowledge and learning in it's day (like Harvard or Princeton or the University in Tel Aviv today)

so to say that these men of the science of the stars (probably Jews as you say) came from Babylon is not illogical and historically makes sense :)

[Steve Petersen]

Then there is a Talmud that originated there.

[visionary]

Then there is a Talmud that originated there.On that note... is there anything in the Talmud that could give the wise men the information they needed to be looking for the Messiah via stars?

[Steve Petersen]

On that note... is there anything in the Talmud that could give the wise men the information they needed to be looking for the Messiah via stars?

The Talmud was compiled much later than Jesus day, but it may contain traditions that pre-date him. I am not familiar with any per se, but Rabbi Akiva used this passage from the Torah to declare Bar Kosiba as Messiah in 135 CE(?) (changing his name to Bar Kochba, 'son of the star')

Num 24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

There is also this passage from the Torah:

Gen 49:9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up? 10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Ernest L. Martin in his book The Star that Astonished the World makes the case that the star was a conjuntion of Jupiter, Saturn and the star Regulus which occured three times over 18 months between 3 and 2 BCE. I find this really interesting because Regulus is in the constellation of Leo, the lion. Regulus is also 'between the feet' of Leo. The word Regulus is Latin and is the root word for 'regulation' or 'law.' The planets went retrograde around Regulus on three occasions. Planetary motion causes it to appear that planets occasionally go backward from our point of view here on earth. Jupiter literally circled Regulus three times over 18 months. I verifed this with an astronomy program called 'Skywatch' which lets you rewind the heavens to past historical times.

Interestingly the last of those three conjunctions occurred near the Feast of Tabernacles on 2 BCE.

One more interesting point: that last conjunction occured just before sunrise in 2 BCE. Which means that in order to see it you had to be up before sunrise and looking in the east. This is where the Magi had to look to see it. It does not have to mean they were 'from the east.'

[Lulav]

Steve, very similar to what the link I gave speaks about. He did show that the three 'risings' of Regulas made a pattern that resembles a crown, thus enforces the King star from it's regular patterns.

[bluemarkus]

My belief is that these are Jewish men that stayed in the East ( could be Babylon, could be Sushan) after most returned during the times of Ezra and Nehemiah. Who else would be concerned with honoring a newborn King of the Jews?

hmmm... might be, but its the first time i´m hearing this supposition...for sure there were some exiled jews of high position.

[Steve Petersen]

My belief is that these are Jewish men that stayed in the East ( could be Babylon, could be Sushan) after most returned during the times of Ezra and Nehemiah. Who else would be concerned with honoring a newborn King of the Jews?

hmmm... might be, but its the first time i´m hearing this supposition...for sure there were some exiled jews of high position.

In Jesus day, the largest Jewish population was in Babylon. Many of the sages quoted in the Talmuds were in that area.

[Lulav]

My belief is that these are Jewish men that stayed in the East ( could be Babylon, could be Sushan) after most returned during the times of Ezra and Nehemiah. Who else would be concerned with honoring a newborn King of the Jews?

hmmm... might be, but its the first time i´m hearing this supposition...for sure there were some exiled jews of high position.Jewish thought and understanding is rarely taught in the gentile churches that would probably be why this is new sounding to you. :)