The Pillar and Foundation of the Truth.

[colinlindsay]

The verse (1 Tim 3:15) is important for those Orthodox I've talked with.
It's meant to be a verse more supportive of Apostolic Succession than 2 Tim 3:16 is for Sola Scriptura.

My NIV SEEMS confusing.
......in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
Here the pillar seems to refer to God Himself not to the church. How important the placing of a comma is.

Has the NIV got it right?

Appreciate your comments.

[Akathist]

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.


15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.





15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.


NIV is a protestant translation that is biased towards protestant theology, IMO. Referring to God's household is meant to belittle the importance of the Church and imply that the two are seperate.

[Sacrum Silentium]

The NIV actually excludes verses from the Bible. It's not worth having.

[Heorhij]

In my Ukrainian translation of the Bible, made by Prof. Ivan Ohienko (who was an Orthodox bishop known as Metropolitan Hillarios), the text of 1 Tim. 3:15 reads, "... jak treba povodytysya v Bozhomu domi, shcho nym je Tserkva Boha Zhyvoho, stovp i pidvalyna pravdy." The only way to render it in English is, "... how to behave in the House of God, this house being the Church of the Living God, this Church being the pillar and foundation of the truth." Ohienko made his translation from the original Greek.

[repentant]

Comma grammer rule # 4...

Use a comma to set off parenthetical elements, as in "The Founders Bridge, which spans the Connecticut River, is falling down." By "parenthetical element," we mean a part of a sentence that can be removed without changing the essential meaning of that sentence. The parenthetical element is sometimes called "added information." This is the most difficult rule in punctuation because it is sometimes unclear what is "added" or "parenthetical" and what is essential to the meaning of a sentence.

[Heorhij]

Comma grammer rule # 4...

Use a comma to set off parenthetical elements, as in "The Founders Bridge, which spans the Connecticut River, is falling down." By "parenthetical element," we mean a part of a sentence that can be removed without changing the essential meaning of that sentence. The parenthetical element is sometimes called "added information." This is the most difficult rule in punctuation because it is sometimes unclear what is "added" or "parenthetical" and what is essential to the meaning of a sentence.
I think the best thing here is to ask people who know the Greek language. We do have quite a lot of maniscripts in Koine Greek that are relatively early copies from the originals of the New Testament writers. I have in my possession a Nestle-Aland "Novum Testamentum Latine et Graece," and it says, in 1 Tim. 3:15, "ean de brasilo, ina eidis pos dei en oiko theu anastrefesthai, itis estin ekklisia theu zontos, otilos ke edraioma tis aletheias." What say you, Greek experts? :)

Happy Feast of the Nativity of our Lord, everyone!

G.

[repentant]

I think the best thing here is to ask people who know the Greek language. We do have quite a lot of maniscripts in Koine Greek that are relatively early copies from the originals of the New Testament writers. I have in my possession a Nestle-Aland "Novum Testamentum Latine et Graece," and it says, in 1 Tim. 3:15, "ean de brasilo, ina eidis pos dei en oiko theu anastrefesthai, itis estin ekklisia theu zontos, otilos ke edraioma tis aletheias." What say you, Greek experts? :)

Happy Feast of the Nativity of our Lord, everyone!

G.

What I say is that the Koine Greek doesn't have commas...;)

But we never get anywhere with the Greek vs. English translation thing..so the best thing to do in this case is point out the rules of grammer used in that particular verse for the English...

[Heorhij]

What I say is that the Koine Greek doesn't have commas...;)

But we never get anywhere with the Greek vs. English translation thing..so the best thing to do in this case is point out the rules of grammer used in that particular verse for the English...
Blessed Feast of Nativity of our Lord!

Yes, Repentant, you are right - ancient New Testament manuscripts written in Koine Greek had no commas - and also, shocking as it may seem to us now, no spaces between words... So, our familiar, "verily I say unto you, today you will be with me in Paradise" in the original text looked like this: "aminsoilegosimeronmetemuesitoparadeiso." And Jehovah's Witnesses, defending their theology that denies the immortality of the soul, interpret it like this: "verily I say unto you today, you will be with me in Paradise." Technically, we cannot prove that their interpretation is wrong, because there weren't any commas in the original text... However, if we, instead of playing "grammar games," listen to the Tradition, then we will have no doubt that the correct translation of Luke 23:43 is, "verily I say unto you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

[Akathist]

However, if we, instead of playing "grammar games," listen to the Tradition,

Thus lies the crux of the matter. Tradition is afterall, from the "church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

If Truth comes from the "household" then grammatical analysis is a justified avenue of apologetics.

But for us, Truth comes from the Church, which is the living God and is the foundation of our Truth. The Church is what gives us Tradition and what teaches us how to read the Holy Bible.

Sola Scriptura misses so much because they threw the baby out with the bath water (so to speak) and instead of rejecting some of the beliefs being taught at the time by the Roman Catholic Church, they rejected anything to do with Tradition for the most part.


This in turn has led to many innovations and even the belief that innovations in theology is the norm and anything else is "man made doctrine."

I used to be protestant. I was taught that God will tell me what the bible says through the Holy Spirit. And that is the Truth. But, at the same time, I read bible study books that told me what something meant according to contemporary authors.

If these authors could be devinely inspired, why couldn't the ECF's? I am awed when I think of how the Holy Spirit has inspired us to maintain the faith given to us through the Apostles by maintaining our Traditions.

[Saint Melania]

I rejected the NIV version long before becoming Orthodox. With me, it's either KJV, NKJV, or NASB.

[repentant]

Blessed Feast of Nativity of our Lord!

Yes, Repentant, you are right - ancient New Testament manuscripts written in Koine Greek had no commas - and also, shocking as it may seem to us now, no spaces between words... So, our familiar, "verily I say unto you, today you will be with me in Paradise" in the original text looked like this: "aminsoilegosimeronmetemuesitoparadeiso." And Jehovah's Witnesses, defending their theology that denies the immortality of the soul, interpret it like this: "verily I say unto you today, you will be with me in Paradise." Technically, we cannot prove that their interpretation is wrong, because there weren't any commas in the original text... However, if we, instead of playing "grammar games," listen to the Tradition, then we will have no doubt that the correct translation of Luke 23:43 is, "verily I say unto you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

And to you..

Trust me, I understand what you are saying, but in this particular instance (and in other's) the translation is correct, and the commas used are correctly placed to convey the intentions of the writer. The easiest thing to do is to show them the rules of the grammar. In this instance it is the same thing as saying, "John, who is my brother, came with me to the store." "who is my brother" was not needed, but was a little bit of extra information...same as why the commas are used in the Timothy verse..

[colinlindsay]

Good discussion.

What did the earliest commentators think about this passage?

[Lukaris]

St John Chrysostom covers much of the 3rd chapter of 1st Timothy in Homily XI on 1st Timothy. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf113.v.iii.xii.html

[buzuxi02]

Good discussion.

What did the earliest commentators think about this passage?
I dont have a source with commentary by the Apostolic Fathers on the particular verse, but i can give you what their consensus was. The verse bears witness to the Fathers and the Fathers bear witness to the verse.

"The World is driven and tempest-tossed by sins. Therefore God has given to it assemblies-we mean Holy Churches, in which survive the doctrines of the truth" Theophilus of Antioch 180 a.d.

"To this cause are also due the various opinions that exist among the heretics, inasmuch as each one adopted errors just as he was capable. But the Church thoughout all the world, having its origin firm from the apostles, persevere in one and the same opinion with regard to God and His Son." Ireneous 180 A.D.

" It is neccesary to graciously respind to questions and to demonstrate from the scriptures themselves how the heresies have failed. It is neccesary to show how in the truth alone and in the Ancient Church, there are both the exact knowledge, and the truly best set of principles." Clement of Alexandria 195 a.d.

'Whereever it will be manifest that the true christian rule and faith are, there likewise will be the true scriptures and the correct exposition thereof- and all the christian traditions.- Tertullian 197 a.d.

"We cling to the standard of the heavenly Church of Jesus Christ, according to the succession of the apostles" -Origen 225 a.d.