Jesus Created a New Religion? [Archive]

christianmomof3

23rd December 2007, 06:21 PM

Then... what did he do?
What Did Jesus Do? (WDJD) That is a great question!
In order to know the answer, you have to read the entire Bible.
In brief:
He was incarnated as a man bringing divinity into humanity.
He lived a sinless human living.
He passed through an all inclusive death taking Satan to the cross in His flesh destroying him who has the might of death, the devil and redeeming us for our sins.
He went through resurrection bringing all of His redeemed believers with Him so that we also can live with Him in resurrection.
He became the Life-giving Spirit so that He can come into our human spirits and dwell in us as our life and life-supply.
He did many other things which are written about in a book that we call the Bible. He also did many things that are not written in the Bible.
He lives in His believers and continues to act and grow and live and love even now.
He did and does more that I can ever know, understand or express. He is God.

A_Pioneer

23rd December 2007, 08:19 PM

Yeshua was the poretz, opened the kingdom to the Nations.

Shalom

ORI

23rd December 2007, 08:59 PM

General question
If he did not create a “new religion” how would anyone explain the obvious differences between Judaism and Christianity.

Ivy

23rd December 2007, 09:37 PM

So.... are you saying that the Jews did not have a relationship with G-d?

This was a question about the Jews? :scratch:

All mankind, regardless of being Jew or Gentile, is alienated from God and needs to be reconciled.

A_Pioneer

23rd December 2007, 11:39 PM

General question
If he did not create a “new religion” how would anyone explain the obvious differences between Judaism and Christianity.Man created "Replacement Theology", The Way was exactlly Temple Hebrew the "way of life" for all mankind who love Y H V H .

Shalom

simchat_torah

24th December 2007, 12:54 AM

This was a question about the Jews? :scratch: It certainly seemed that your statement was aimed at the Jews:
To put my two cents in, Jesus came to make it possible for us to be reconciled with the Father and to be restored to a love relationship with Him. His intent was not religion per se, but relationship.
Jesus' coming was preceded by Judaism. In fact, it seems that your contention is that he didn't even start a new religion per se. This would imply that the Jews did not have a relationship with G-d. Thus my question to you stands:
are you saying that the Jews did not have a relationship with G-d?

simchat_torah

24th December 2007, 12:57 AM

What Did Jesus Do? (WDJD) That is a great question!
In order to know the answer, you have to read the entire Bible.
In brief:
He was incarnated as a man bringing divinity into humanity.
He lived a sinless human living.
He passed through an all inclusive death taking Satan to the cross in His flesh destroying him who has the might of death, the devil and redeeming us for our sins.
He went through resurrection bringing all of His redeemed believers with Him so that we also can live with Him in resurrection.
He became the Life-giving Spirit so that He can come into our human spirits and dwell in us as our life and life-supply.
He did many other things which are written about in a book that we call the Bible. He also did many things that are not written in the Bible.
He lives in His believers and continues to act and grow and live and love even now.
He did and does more that I can ever know, understand or express. He is God.Sorry, let me clarify. I was not asking what are all of the theological ramifications of the coming of Jesus... but rather, I was asking in context whether or not he started a new relgion. If he did not start a new religion, then you could respond in one of several ways (ie: Jesus did not start a new religion, but rather made commentary on the current religion). etc.

So if he did not start a new relgion, did he adhere to Judaism? If so, did he adhere to the notion that mad does not need a mediator between man and G-d? etc.

simchat_torah

24th December 2007, 12:59 AM

Yeshua was the poretz, opened the kingdom to the Nations.
Explain.

Was not Israel a light to the nations?

-confused-

christianmomof3

24th December 2007, 01:39 AM

General question
If he did not create a “new religion” how would anyone explain the obvious differences between Judaism and Christianity.
There are many reasons for the differences between the Christian religions and the Jewish religion.
So.... are you saying that the Jews did not have a relationship with G-d?
The Jewish relationship with God is different from the Christian relationship with God.
The Jews are God's chosen people.
They know about God.
They know God.
But, God is outside of the Jewish people.
The reason that God was incarnated as the man Jesus is so that He could bring divinity into humanity and become the life-giving Spirit and live within the human spirits of His believers.
Born-again Christians have Christ living in them.
Jews don't.

So if he did not start a new relgion, did he adhere to Judaism? If so, did he adhere to the notion that mad does not need a mediator between man and G-d? etc.

I am not sure what you are asking with reference to the mediator part.

A_Pioneer

24th December 2007, 02:51 AM

Explain.

Was not Israel a light to the nations?

-confused-Yes, Israel has been a Light ot the Nations!
Read the history of the Nation of Israel, they have never been too fond of Gentiles coming into the Kingdom!

Yeshua broke the Kingdom out to the Nations, even though it has been perverted a multitude of Gentiles have been saved, a few have been enough of commandment keepers they have been chosen.
Ac 15:14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

A lolapolluza of a successful event, taking out of the Gentiles a people for his name! I would say!

When the Moshiach ben David comes he will banish all ungodliness from Israel. Never again will any one have to say "Know the Lord" for "All" will know the Lord.

Stay awake and be ready, because time is short.

Shalom

simchat_torah

24th December 2007, 03:37 AM

I am not sure what you are asking with reference to the mediator part.
I'm just asking for it to be put into context regarding the topic at hand. :)

simchat_torah

24th December 2007, 03:38 AM

Stay awake and be ready, because time is short.I distinctly remember history books stating this very same Christian message for about two thousand years now.

In your opinion... What is "short"?

Lulav

24th December 2007, 04:10 AM

So.... are you saying that the Jews did not have a relationship with G-d? But he said unto her, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

simchat_torah

24th December 2007, 05:19 AM

But he said unto her, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.Soo... wondering way off topic here... but...
Which ones were lost and which ones weren't?

A_Pioneer

24th December 2007, 12:28 PM

I distinctly remember history books stating this very same Christian message for about two thousand years now.

In your opinion... What is "short"?
What do they say? "Next year in Jerusalem."
Not setting a date, but I'll be ready if that is the season.

But he said unto her, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
If that was his "Right then" assignment, he was a dissmal failure. Don't you think?
Ro 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
In my opinion this is when Moshiach ben David comes!
Lu 7:20 And when the men had come to him, they said, "John the Baptist has sent us to you, saying, ‘Are you he who is to come, or shall we look for another?’"

Here was another time when speaking to a Jew who recognized him, "Keep it to yourself." Not really the way if his primary mission was to locate all the "lost sheep of Israel." And never did he admonish a Gentile who recognized him to keep it secret. Go figure?!

Had the Greek mindset not taken over the Way, we all would be living the Hebrew Lifestyle. Judaism is not a religion, but a lifestyle.

Shalom

ORI

24th December 2007, 03:52 PM

Yes, Israel has been a Light ot the Nations!
Read the history of the Nation of Israel, they have never been too fond of Gentiles coming into the Kingdom!

Yeshua broke the Kingdom out to the Nations, even though it has been perverted a multitude of Gentiles have been saved, a few have been enough of commandment keepers they have been chosen.
Ac 15:14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

A lolapolluza of a successful event, taking out of the Gentiles a people for his name! I would say!

When the Moshiach ben David comes he will banish all ungodliness from Israel. Never again will any one have to say "Know the Lord" for "All" will know the Lord.

Stay awake and be ready, because time is short.

Shalom
The door has always been open. There has never been exclusion.
Read Isaiah Ch. 56

ORI

24th December 2007, 04:16 PM

There are many reasons for the differences between the Christian religions and the Jewish religion.

The Jewish relationship with God is different from the Christian relationship with God.
The Jews are God's chosen people.
They know about God.
They know God.
But, God is outside of the Jewish people.
The reason that God was incarnated as the man Jesus is so that He could bring divinity into humanity and become the life-giving Spirit and live within the human spirits of His believers.
Born-again Christians have Christ living in them.
Jews don't.

I am not sure what you are asking with reference to the mediator part.

The point that I’m trying to make is this; the way in which the “Christian” church worships is very different in comparison. If Torah was the path of the righteous, which I feel it is, why should the dynamics or practices have changed? The NT says that he lived a sinless life. Regardless it was Torah that he was taught, not what so many embrace now; not sure what to call it. Torah can not be improved upon. It is perfection / the bread of life.

christianmomof3

24th December 2007, 06:04 PM

The point that I’m trying to make is this; the way in which the “Christian” church worships is very different in comparison. If Torah was the path of the righteous, which I feel it is, why should the dynamics or practices have changed? The NT says that he lived a sinless life. Regardless it was Torah that he was taught, not what so many embrace now; not sure what to call it. Torah can not be improved upon. It is perfection / the bread of life.
So, you are asking about the various practices in Christianity?
Most of those practices came from men and not from Jesus.
There are a wide variety of practices within the different Christian religious groups and some of those groups have practices that are
more biblically correct than others.
The only practice that I think that Jesus established was the Lord's table - the taking of the bread and wine in remeberance of Him.

Ivy

24th December 2007, 10:05 PM

It certainly seemed that your statement was aimed at the Jews:

That hadn't even occurred to me.

Though it was "aimed" to answer a question that was asked by a Jew. ;) That would be "yew." ;)

Jesus' coming was preceded by Judaism. In fact, it seems that your contention is that he didn't even start a new religion per se. This would imply that the Jews did not have a relationship with G-d. Thus my question to you stands:
are you saying that the Jews did not have a relationship with G-d?

Well, I am drinking eggnog and therefore not in "contention" mode......:cool: :cool:

But the Bible is a written *record of the Jews' relationship with God; and I certainly don't disbelieve the Bible.

Tonks

24th December 2007, 10:05 PM

No new religion...just a fulfilled religion. Jews that rejected Christ were pruned from the Vine and Gentiles that accepted Christ were grafted in.

Then again, I affirm was the Jews derisively call "Replacement Theology." It is the truth of the Church...and has been accepted by Christians since the inception.

It certainly makes much more sense then a bunch of non-Jews playing like they're Jewish and blowing on a shofar etc.

A_Pioneer

25th December 2007, 01:19 AM

The door has always been open. There has never been exclusion.
Read Isaiah Ch. 56 Yes the Temple was the house of Prayer for all People, but may I ask where could a Gentile come in and pray? Didn't Yeshua say to the woman at the well that she she worshiped what she did not know? You can't get a prayer answered unless the prayer is to the Creator God that you know! Where was the outreach to the Nations?

When the Poretz came and broke down the breech, allowing the kingdom out to the Nations.

Shalom

muffler dragon

25th December 2007, 01:58 AM

I would posit that Jesus didn't start a new religion, but someone he beat down off a horse did. :D

simchat_torah

25th December 2007, 04:02 AM

but may I ask where could a Gentile come in and pray?The court of the Gentiles.

A_Pioneer

25th December 2007, 12:47 PM

The court of the Gentiles.And why was that?

Shalom

torahgrandma

25th December 2007, 12:52 PM

A_Pioneer

25th December 2007, 01:07 PM

Let's do a brief review of what Jesus did. He ate with sinners, tax collectors and prostitutes. He hung out with a Samaritan woman at the well and drank from her ladle, and there are other accounts of Him hanging out with other "unclean" people.

He verbally shredded the ruling scribes and pharisees (not a big problem because they were hasmoneans, and not the God appointed zadokites) and attacked their hypocrisy every chance He got. He also predicted the destruction of the temple, which was the center of the existing religious system.

hmmmmmmmm ;)
You were going so good until you did what so many do add the "Precepts of men." ( ) LOL

simchat_torah

25th December 2007, 04:17 PM

And why was that?
As the temple was prescribed to be built in the Torah, it included a court for the Gentiles to come in and worship along side of the Jews.

http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/temple2.jpg

The main entrance to the Temple Mount was through the Hulda Gates, located at the bottom left of the photo. These gates led to a long staircase emerging into the Court of the Gentiles.
Surrounding the Court of the Gentiles were a series of "porches" or cloisters through which ran double rows of Corinthian pillars, each cut from marble and measuring 37 feet in height and covered by a flat roof. The entire court was paved with marble. The southern of these porches was known as "Solomon's Porch" (Acts 3:11).
The Court of the Gentiles derived its name from the fact that Gentiles were permitted into this area provided they conducted themselves in a reverent manner. The tower in the foreground was the "Place of Trumpeting" and was also known as the Pinnacle of the Temple. It was from this vantage point that the trumpet would be sounded to signal the beginning of the sacrifices.
(bold emphasis mine)
reference: http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/temple.html

Also See: http://www.bible-history.com/gentile_court/TEMPLECOURTCourt_of_the_Gentiles.htm

A_Pioneer

25th December 2007, 06:09 PM

As the temple was prescribed to be built in the Torah, it included a court for the Gentiles to come in and worship along side of the Jews.

http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/temple2.jpg
(bold emphasis mine)
reference: http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/temple.html

Also See: http://www.bible-history.com/gentile_court/TEMPLECOURTCourt_of_the_Gentiles.htm
You too, were doing so well until you added the "Precepts of men."
There is no "Courtyard of the Gentiles/Nations" anywhere in my Chumash.
Tell me why?
A "Mixed Multitude" came out of Egypt and all of them was the "Assembly" and all the assembly entered the courtyard of the "Tent of the Meeting".
When did Y H V H change and tell you to exclude the Gentile/Nations?
I don't find any such mitzvah!
Shalom

simchat_torah

25th December 2007, 08:20 PM

Let's do a brief review of what Jesus did. He ate with sinners, tax collectors and prostitutes. He hung out with a Samaritan woman at the well and drank from her ladle, and there are other accounts of Him hanging out with other "unclean" people.

He verbally shredded the ruling scribes and pharisees (not a big problem because they were hasmoneans, and not the God appointed zadokites) and attacked their hypocrisy every chance He got. He also predicted the destruction of the temple, which was the center of the existing religious system.

hmmmmmmmm ;)Hi Higher Truth... I was wondering when you'd join this thread. I'm curious though... with all of your anti-Messianic rhetoric, antisemetic posts, and anti-Judaic views... why do you still see Jesus as embedded in Judaism and not the creator of a new religion?

Henaynei

26th December 2007, 12:46 AM

neither the religion nor the relationship were new, simply renewed and the "mystery" of the gentiles was revealed ...

Henaynei

26th December 2007, 12:48 AM

You too, were doing so well until you added the "Precepts of men."
There is no "Courtyard of the Gentiles/Nations" anywhere in my Chumash.
Tell me why?
A "Mixed Multitude" came out of Egypt and all of them was the "Assembly" and all the assembly entered the courtyard of the "Tent of the Meeting".
When did Y H V H change and tell you to exclude the Gentile/Nations?
I don't find any such mitzvah!
Shalomthose gentiles.mixed multitude became Israel when at HarSinai they said "we will obey and we will hear" - they ceased being gentiles ... thus there were no gentiles in the camp throughout the time in the wilderness ...

A_Pioneer

26th December 2007, 02:01 AM

those gentiles.mixed multitude became Israel when at HarSinai they said "we will obey and we will hear" - they ceased being gentiles ... thus there were no gentiles in the camp throughout the time in the wilderness ...
Oh, gee, I hate to say this to you. You too were doing so well until you added the "precepts of men" nowhere in Torah does it indicate "all" of them were circumcised and became Israel.
For that matter, Gentiles only appears once in AV and never in Torah. Go figure?

Sorry---- Shalom

simchat_torah

26th December 2007, 02:46 AM

Huh? Where did Henaynei state that all were circumcised?

I think you were so happy and intent on using your casual insult "You were doing so well until..." that you inserted words in her mouth.

simchat_torah

26th December 2007, 02:48 AM

You too, were doing so well until you added the "Precepts of men."
There is no "Courtyard of the Gentiles/Nations" anywhere in my Chumash.
Tell me why?
A "Mixed Multitude" came out of Egypt and all of them was the "Assembly" and all the assembly entered the courtyard of the "Tent of the Meeting".
When did Y H V H change and tell you to exclude the Gentile/Nations?
I don't find any such mitzvah!
ShalomIncorrect sir. The courtyard was prescribed in the making of the Temple... the "wall of seperation" was not. The wall which seperated the two outside courts was instituted later.

Try again for 100 alex?

Henaynei

26th December 2007, 09:27 AM

Oh, gee, I hate to say this to you. You too were doing so well until you added the "precepts of men" nowhere in Torah does it indicate "all" of them were circumcised and became Israel.
For that matter, Gentiles only appears once in AV and never in Torah. Go figure?

Sorry---- Shalomhmmm, you yourself say above that "gentiles only appear once in AV (sorry, my just-out-of-bed brain can't figure out what AV means -- KJAV maybe?) and never in Torah." Go figure .... is that not what I said?? "Mixed multitude" before HarSinai but no "mixed multitude" mentioned after... only Israel, my people, your people, the congregation, the camp... no strangers or sojourners mentioned as being part of that camp...

b'Shalom
Henaynei

A_Pioneer

26th December 2007, 12:33 PM

Huh? Where did Henaynei state that all were circumcised?

I think you were so happy and intent on using your casual insult "You were doing so well until..." that you inserted words in her mouth.
Not so! No words added, only a question where does it say they became beni Israel. Was there any uncircumsized beni Israel?

Shalom

A_Pioneer

26th December 2007, 12:38 PM

Incorrect sir. The courtyard was prescribed in the making of the Temple... the "wall of seperation" was not. The wall which seperated the two outside courts was instituted later.

Try again for 100 alex?
LOL. Close, but not the subject.
Sorry you were insulted by the "presumed' cutie.
Was meant as a joke.

Shalom

torahgrandma

26th December 2007, 01:58 PM

... I was wondering when you'd join this thread. I'm curious though... with all of your anti-Messianic rhetoric, antisemetic posts, and anti-Judaic views... why do you still see Jesus as embedded in Judaism and not the creator of a new religion?

Quite simply my dear Sinchat, I don't see Jesus embedded in the Judaism of the time. Actually, I see Him as quite perturbed with it. There was a false king, and a false priesthood. His chastising of the pharisees throughout the book of Matthew is self explanatory I think.

ChazakEmunah

26th December 2007, 02:40 PM

You too, were doing so well until you added the "Precepts of men."
There is no "Courtyard of the Gentiles/Nations" anywhere in my Chumash.
Tell me why?
A "Mixed Multitude" came out of Egypt and all of them was the "Assembly" and all the assembly entered the courtyard of the "Tent of the Meeting".
When did Y H V H change and tell you to exclude the Gentile/Nations?
I don't find any such mitzvah!
Shalom

those gentiles.mixed multitude became Israel when at HarSinai they said "we will obey and we will hear" - they ceased being gentiles ... thus there were no gentiles in the camp throughout the time in the wilderness ...

Henaynei is quite right. The Erev Rav that left with us out of Mitzrayim were not goyim, they converted to Judaism.

simchat_torah

26th December 2007, 03:42 PM

my dear SinchatDo you think its time to drop the hat HT?

A_Pioneer

26th December 2007, 07:00 PM

Henaynei is quite right. The Erev Rav that left with us out of Mitzrayim were not goyim, they converted to Judaism.
Chapter and verse? Moshe sure brought alot of mitzvah concerning the stranger among you if there was none?
It seems to me a stranger had a choice, only the passover meal was forbidden to the uncircumcised.
Ex 12:48
This is off subject. My question was where in Torah is a "Court of the Gentiles"?

??????

Shalom

simchat_torah

26th December 2007, 09:15 PM

Exodus 12:48 speaks of the stranger which "comes near" (a reference to the court). Though they not be allowed in the inner chambers.... only allowed to "come near" (ie: the court). The outer court was not explicitly named in the Torah (nor in the NT, or by Josephus) as the "court of the Gentiles". instead, Court of the Gentiles was a nickname. The tract Middoth of the Mishna and in Josephus make mention of the courts, the "court of the priests" and "the court of Israel" (Middoth, ii.6; v. 1; Josephus, BJ, V, v, 6). It was the court of Israel (the whole portion of it) which was referred to as the Court of the Gentiles, as the Gentiles were allowed to "come near" by entering this court. Israel & Gentiles were one people mixed together in this court, one people before G-d. This outer court was intended for the use of strangers of all nations. However, Gentiles were not allowed past the inner gates or within the Court of the Priests. Psalms mentions worshipping in the court many times: 65:4; 84:2; 92:13; 96:8; 100:4; 116:19; etc.

So, the court of the Gentiles was not so named because it was specifically set aside for the Gentiles. No, it was named because Gentiles were allowed to enter this portion of the Temple as prescribed by the Torah.

What you are upset about is probably the Wall of Seperation that was constructed much later. Paul refers to this wall in Eph. 2:14, alluding to the partition.
In fact, many Jews believe it was this very wall which caused the destruction of the Temple as it was not prescribed in the Torah.

Here's a snippet about the wall:
These two courts were separated by a low wall, as Josephus states, some 4 1/2 feet high, with thirteen openings. Along the top of this dividing wall, at regular intervals, were placed pillars bearing in Greek an inscription to the effect that no stranger was, on the pain of death, to pass from the court of the Gentiles into that of the Jews. At the entrance to a graveyard at the northwestern angle of the Haram wall, a stone was discovered by M. Ganneau in 1871, built into the wall, bearing the following inscription in Greek capitals: "No stranger is to enter within the partition wall and enclosure around the sanctuary. Whoever is caught will be responsible to himself for his death, which will ensue."
*source: http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/templeherods.html

Henaynei

26th December 2007, 10:48 PM

Chapter and verse?Sh'mot 24:3 Moshe came and told the people everything AD-NAI had said, including all the rulings. The people answered with one voice: "We will obey every word AD-NAI has spoken." 4 Moshe wrote down all the words of AD-NAI. He rose early in the morning, built an altar at the base of the mountain and set upright twelve large stones to represent the twelve tribes of Isra'el. 5 He sent the young men of the people of Isra'el to offer burnt offerings and sacrifice peace offerings of oxen to AD-NAI. 6 Moshe took half of the blood and put it in basins; the other half of the blood he splashed against the altar. 7 Then he took the book of the covenant and read it aloud, so that the people could hear; and they responded, "Everything that AD-NAI has spoken, we will do and obey." 8 Moshe took the blood, sprinkled it on the people and said, "This is the blood of the covenant which AD-NAI has made with you in accordance with all these words." ALL the people said "we will obey and we will hear," ALL the people entered into the covenant when they were sprinkles with the blood of the covenant sacrifice. They said they would obey and that meant they would be circumcised, period.
Moshe sure brought alot of mitzvah concerning the stranger among you if there was none?
It seems to me a stranger had a choice, only the passover meal was forbidden to the uncircumcised.
Ex 12:48It was G-d who gave the mitzvot, not Moshe`; G-d gave the Law for not just their time in the wilderness but also for when they entered and settled the Land. Did you think the rulings from HarSinai were just for the wilderness and nothing unique was given for when they actually were in possession of their own land?

G-d said AT LEAST 8 times "When you come into the Land (which I am giving you)":

Le 14:34 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+14:34&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - When ye be come into the land of Canaan, which I give to you for a possession, and I put the plague of leprosy in a house of the land of your possession;

Le 19:23 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+19:23&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - And when ye shall come into the land, and shall have planted all manner of trees for food, then ye shall count the fruit thereof as uncircumcised: three years shall it be as uncircumcised unto you: it shall not be eaten of.

Le 23:10 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+23:10&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:

Le 25:2 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+25:2&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land which I give you, then shall the land keep a sabbath unto the L-RD.

Nu 15:2 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=nu+15:2&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land of your habitations, which I give unto you,

Nu 15:18 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=nu+15:18&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land whither I bring you,

Nu 34:2 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=nu+34:2&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Command the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land of Canaan; (this is the land that shall fall unto you for an inheritance, even the land of Canaan with the coasts thereof

:) There were also **numerous** Laws specific to living in the Land - harvest and first fruit Laws, and more .... SO, just because G-d gave Laws about strangers, foreigners and sojourners while Israel was still in the wilderness does NOT mean there were gentiles (or harvests or first fruits, etc) in the camp. As I have shown ALL the people in the camp said they would obey the Laws and rulings G-d spoke to Moshe` and this would have included circumcision.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

simchat_torah

27th December 2007, 04:44 AM

As I have shown ALL the people in the camp said they would obey the Laws and rulings G-d spoke to Moshe` and this would have included circumcision.Yuppers. ;)

A_Pioneer

27th December 2007, 01:07 PM

Okay folks, you have it your way! I attempted to keep this biblical. The Zadokites are not yet the Preisthood, there is no court of the Gentiles in the Chumash, and there is no words in the Chumash that "all" in the people were circumcised.
To top that off, those people who heard and obeyed were not given a "Luxury vacation" at the "New Resort and Spa" Ka'desh-barnea as a reward for this perceived obedience!
I wont bother you anymore on this thread.

Shalom

nasa1

27th December 2007, 03:39 PM

Christianmomof3 wrote

The Jewish relationship with God is different from the Christian relationship with God.
The Jews are God's chosen people.
They know about God.
They know God.
But, God is outside of the Jewish people.
The reason that God was incarnated as the man Jesus is so that He could bring divinity into humanity and become the life-giving Spirit and live within the human spirits of His believers.
Born-again Christians have Christ living in them.
Jews don't.

Jews were God's chosen people to bring in the Messiah. Now, the chosen ones are those who love Jesus.
Yes, some Jews know about God - like everyone else on this planet. Big deal.

But do all truly know God? If anyone truly knows God, they would also know Jesus.

John 7:17 NIV
If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Obviously all those in Judaism and other religions who reject Jesus do not have it in their hearts to do God's will - if they did, they would realize that Jesus was teaching the words of God. Thankfully there are some, especially in Buddhism, who do realize the teachings of Jesus did come God.

John 8:20
"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."

This is very plain: every Jew trained in the Law who truly knows God will know the Son.
So please don't say, "Jews know God" because that is an outright falsehood and a generalization of deciet.

The following statement of Jesus is to all Jewdom who hate Jesus:

John 8:42-47 NIV
42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

HE WHO BELONGS TO GOD HEARS WHAT GOD SAYS.
OBVIOUSLY, MOST JEWS DON'T KNOW GOD.

As for Yeshua creating a "new religion," the fact is, He did come and start something new. His church was founded upon the Rock, Himself, while Judaism is founded on the Torah and the teachings of men. No one in Judaism is born again - while we Christians are born again of the Spirit. That is also new. We are the Temple of the Living God. That is new as well. We are new creations who will rule and reign over the whole universe.

What we have in Christ is so much better than what Judaism has, or what they had in the Old Testament days. Jesus really did start something new, and it has nothing to do with Torah, for even those who are least in the Kingdom of Christ are greater than John the Baptist, a Torah observant Jew! Why are they greater? Because we are in CHRIST, who is greater than the Law.
We are BORN AGAIN.

I warn those hear to stop listening to cut off dead branches because you have replaced them, Our Lord took the Kingdom away from Jews and gave it to the True Israel of God - the Church! Stop listening to those with dead roots, the children of the evil one and start listening to the children of Light, those who love Yeshua.

NASA

A_Pioneer

27th December 2007, 04:18 PM

I lied, I can not stand by and ignore "Replacement Theology."
Nasa, you are in Replacement theology and it is full of error and untruth!

Shalom

muffler dragon

27th December 2007, 04:51 PM

Jews ARE God's chosen people to bring in the Messiah.

Fixed it for you.

Btw, when the Messiah comes, there will be a number of changes in the world that aren't present now. That is what many would call, "evidence".

Latreia

27th December 2007, 04:59 PM

Ironically, the Christian religion as church was the creation of another Jew. His name was Saul, he never met Jesus.

He liked to call himself a Roman, and it seems when he decided to found his own church, Jesus looked like a good way to start one.

So, he claimed to have seen a vision of Christ, on the road, which seems like an unlikely place to have one.

Then, he became Paul. It is very instructive to simply read this and learn about this great organizer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle

His greatest "masterpiece" the book of Romans, is interesting, especially in regard to the Jews during his time:

Paul is aware that there is some conflict between Gentile and Jewish Christians in the Roman church, and he addressed those concerns (chs. thirteen and the first half of fourteen). While the Roman church was presumably founded by Jewish Christians, the exile of Jews from Rome in AD 49 by Claudius resulted in Gentile Christians taking leadership positions.

In chapters nine through eleven, Paul addresses the faithfulness of God to Israel, where he says that God has been faithful to His promise. Paul hopes that all of Israel will come to realize the truth (9:1–5) since he himself was also an Israelite (11:1) and had in the past been a persecutor of Christ. In Romans 9–11 Paul, talks about how the nation of Israel has been cast away, and the conditions under which Israel will be God's chosen nation again: when the Body of Christ (believers in Christ's payment for sin) stops being faithful (11:19–22).

Paul sometimes uses a style of writing common in his time called a "diatribe". He appears to be responding to a "heckler", and the letter is structured as a series of arguments. The letter is addressed to the church at Rome, which consisted of both Gentile and Jewish Christians. In the flow of the letter, Paul shifts his arguments, sometimes addressing the Jewish members of the church, sometimes the Gentile membership and sometimes the church as a whole.

Since it was not Jesus who removed Himself from the Jews, but those who decided to build their own church quite separately, Christians today are the ones who seem confused, especially when they quote "Scripture" to "show God's will."

But I often wonder why God did not simply send a messiah that the Jews would recognize.

Perhaps that is why Jesus spoke on the cross, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do"

Surely God knew that the Jews who could not recognize the promised messiah were not to be held guilty for that.

Anti-Semitism is entirely founded and solidly based, not upon God's will, but the evils of mankind, persecution and bigotry.

muffler dragon

27th December 2007, 06:22 PM

But I often wonder why God did not simply send a messiah that the Jews would recognize.

Do you mean like one that didn't fulfill the prophesies of the Tanakh or something else?

Latreia

27th December 2007, 06:42 PM

Do you mean like one that didn't fulfill the prophesies of the Tanakh or something else?

My small world consists of Jesus and the Christian Bible, so I do not know what you mean.

Since you do know what you mean, perhaps you are better qualified to have the answer than I do. Or where you also referring to one other than Jesus of Nazareth?

:scratch:

simchat_torah

27th December 2007, 06:49 PM

Don't worry Pioneer... we all know how far off Nasa is from reality. Its no secret.

But I'm a little sad you didn't reply to my post. I was hoping you'd gain at least a little insight from it.

christianmomof3

27th December 2007, 07:07 PM

Jews were God's chosen people to bring in the Messiah. Now, the chosen ones are those who love Jesus.
on my own.

Obviously all those in Judaism and other religions who reject Jesus do not have it in their hearts to do God's will - if they did, they would realize that Jesus was teaching the words of God.
...
So please don't say, "Jews know God" because that is an outright falsehood and a generalization of deciet.

HE WHO BELONGS TO GOD HEARS WHAT GOD SAYS.
OBVIOUSLY, MOST JEWS DON'T KNOW GOD.

NASA

:( God never unchose the Jewish people.
He did not throw away Israel and replace it with Christianity.
God has a plan and a purpose for His people.
Romans 11:1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=31#fen-NIV-28222f)] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=31#fen-NIV-28222g)]
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

The Jews do know God - it is just not in the same way that those of us who are saved know Him.
And they will all be saved.

There are many who call themselves Christians who also do not know or listen to God.
God Himself knows who are the tares and who are the wheat and He will take care of that matter when the time comes.

As for Yeshua creating a "new religion," the fact is, He did come and start something new. His church was founded upon the Rock, Himself, while Judaism is founded on the Torah and the teachings of men. No one in Judaism is born again - while we Christians are born again of the Spirit. That is also new. We are the Temple of the Living God. That is new as well. We are new creations who will rule and reign over the whole universe.

What we have in Christ is so much better than what Judaism has, or what they had in the Old Testament days. Jesus really did start something new, and it has nothing to do with Torah, for even those who are least in the Kingdom of Christ are greater than John the Baptist, a Torah observant Jew! Why are they greater? Because we are in CHRIST, who is greater than the Law.
We are BORN AGAIN.
NASA

I agree that those of us who are in Christ are a new creation and that our enjoyment of the Lord and experience of Him is higher than that of the Jewish people.
But, that does not mean that the Jewish people do not know God.
They do - it is just a different kind of knowing and a different relationship.
It would be wonderful for them to be saved and many of us are and one day we all will be saved in His life and born again.
I do not think that Jesus threw out the Torah. Rather, He fulfilled it.

Baruch41

27th December 2007, 07:16 PM

muffler dragon

27th December 2007, 07:40 PM

My small world consists of Jesus and the Christian Bible, so I do not know what you mean.

Since you do know what you mean, perhaps you are better qualified to have the answer than I do. Or where you also referring to one other than Jesus of Nazareth?

:scratch:

There are rather clear prophesies regarding the Jewish Messiah contained within the Jewish Bible (Tanakh).

Jewish Messiah Criteria (http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/general-messiah-criteria.html)

First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)

He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)

He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)

He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)

He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)

He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)

Considering the above was quite known, I don't know if it's possible for Israel to NOT recognize the Messiah. Hence, my question. Does this clarify?

Baruch41

27th December 2007, 07:40 PM

The Jewish relationship with God is different from the Christian relationship with God.
The Jews are God's chosen people.
They know about God.
They know God.
But, God is outside of the Jewish people.
The reason that God was incarnated as the man Jesus is so that He could bring divinity into humanity and become the life-giving Spirit and live within the human spirits of His believers.
Born-again Christians have Christ living in them.
Jews don't.

Great post!

Latreia

27th December 2007, 07:42 PM

Jesus did not creat any religion. He also called the Jewish religious leaders at his time serpents who wud not escape the judgemnt.
HE came as the Savior, the son of G-d.

matt 23: 31-33 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Taking these two verses out of context is an attempt to make it seem that He was berating ALL JEWS, but here are the verses which immediately precede your two:

Matthew 23:

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

:amen:

Baruch41

27th December 2007, 07:43 PM

Baruch41

27th December 2007, 07:48 PM

To put my two cents in, Jesus came to make it possible for us to be reconciled with the Father and to be restored to a love relationship with Him. His intent was not religion per se, but relationship.

Agree!

Latreia

27th December 2007, 07:54 PM

There are rather clear prophesies regarding the Jewish Messiah contained within the Jewish Bible (Tanakh).

Jewish Messiah Criteria (http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/general-messiah-criteria.html)

Considering the above was quite known, I don't know if it's possible for Israel to NOT recognize the Messiah. Hence, my question. Does this clarify?

Jewish Messiah Criteria (http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/general-messiah-criteria.html)

You left in some criterias that were not met, I see:

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)

He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)

He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)

He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)

Being at the mercy of the Roman Empire does not fit the above just right.

You also left out the following, from the top of the page:

The Jewish tradition of "The Messiah" has its foundation in numerous biblical references, and understands "The Messiah" to be a human being - without any overtone of deity or divinity - who will bring about certain changes in the world and fulfill certain criteria before he can be acknowledged as "The Messiah".

Also, from the bottom of the article:

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.

;)

ChazakEmunah

27th December 2007, 10:37 PM

~snip
NASA
You know, in a way I kinda feel sorry for you. Your n'shoma will continue to suffer until you repent and start your tikkun.

I recommend that you start here: http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/ and here: http://www.breslovworld.com/SearchResultsArtical.aspx?type=0&fullType=Article&text=Noahide&pageid=1

Henaynei

28th December 2007, 09:38 AM

Okay folks, you have it your way! I attempted to keep this biblical. The Zadokites are not yet the Priesthood, there is no court of the Gentiles in the Chumash, and there is no words in the Chumash that "all" in the people were circumcised.
To top that off, those people who heard and obeyed were not given a "Luxury vacation" at the "New Resort and Spa" Ka'desh-barnea as a reward for this perceived obedience!
I wont bother you anymore on this thread.

Shalomneither does it say they "all kept kosher" or all 'abstained from blood" or all did any number of the other mitzvot given them - It DOES say that all said they would do/obey and it says they DID do/obey .... just because it does not list each mitzvah does not mean that means they didn't do it ... :scratch:

b'Shalom
Henaynei

ORI

28th December 2007, 02:32 PM

AMEN!
Off topic !

torahgrandma

28th December 2007, 03:09 PM

Hi Higher Truth... I was wondering when you'd join this thread. I'm curious though... with all of your anti-Messianic rhetoric, antisemetic posts, and anti-Judaic views... ........

I so enjoy your passive aggressive "I'm such a victim" behavior Simpchat. I can't believe that you would "whine" to the moderators, while you still, after repeated requests to stop your behavior, continue to call the granny "HT, Higher Truth" and even a "troll":

I don't report many posts, but this is obvious slander. I thought you guys were going to ban this troll?

So your above railing on me in your first and second quote wasn't slander? You slay me.

Latreia

28th December 2007, 03:12 PM

Seems this is deteriorating into the usual Pot vs Kettle Skirmish.....

Latreia

28th December 2007, 03:13 PM

muffler dragon

28th December 2007, 03:47 PM

You left in some criterias that were not met, I see

Very perceptive. Hence, my disbelief of Jesus being the Jewish Messiah or that somehow the Jews didn't recognize him as such.

simchat_torah

28th December 2007, 04:25 PM

I so enjoy your passive aggressive "I'm such a victim" behavior Simpchat. I can't believe that you would "whine" to the moderators, while you still, after repeated requests to stop your behavior, continue to call the granny "HT, Higher Truth" and even a "troll":I didn't whine to the moderators. Ill be honest... I was going to hit the report button on you, but it seems someone else already did it. LOL, it seems that I'm not the only one who tires of your antics around here HT.So your above railing on me in your first and second quote wasn't slander? You slay me.LOL, just because you put my name in the quote doesn't mean I said it. ROFLOL... nice try, but you fail at deception. Reroll?

Latreia

28th December 2007, 04:32 PM

muffler dragon

28th December 2007, 04:57 PM

Which is it? First you implied that the Jews could not claim that they did not accept Jesus as their messiah.

Then that you do not believe that Jesus was the Jewish messiah and somehow they didn't recognize Him.

How about a clear statement that actually confirms both of your statements as not being either in conflict or painfully obtuse?

:scratch:

:sigh:

1) It's IMPOSSIBLE for the Jews to fail to recognize the Jewish Messiah, because there is a plethora of criteria available to aid in that recognition.
2) I'm not the one being obtuse. Your raising of the possibility of the Jewish nation not recognizing the Jewish Messiah is the ignorant portion of this discourse; not me.

But I often wonder why God did not simply send a messiah that the Jews would recognize.

The answer to your wonder: G-d didn't and won't send a Jewish Messiah that the Jews won't recognize. G-d has given enough information so that the Jewish Messiah WILL be recognized. Hence, the lack of acceptance of the dozens (if not hundreds) of failed/false Jewish Messiahs.

Latreia

28th December 2007, 05:43 PM

Ironically, the Christian religion as church was the creation of another Jew. His name was Saul, he never met Jesus.

He liked to call himself a Roman, and it seems when he decided to found his own church, Jesus looked like a good way to start one.

So, he claimed to have seen a vision of Christ, on the road, which seems like an unlikely place to have one.

Then, he became Paul. It is very instructive to simply read this and learn about this great organizer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle

His greatest "masterpiece" the book of Romans, is interesting, especially in regard to the Jews during his time:

Since it was not Jesus who removed Himself from the Jews, but those who decided to build their own church quite separately, Christians today are the ones who seem confused, especially when they quote "Scripture" to "show God's will."

But I often wonder why God did not simply send a messiah that the Jews would recognize.

Perhaps that is why Jesus spoke on the cross, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do"

Surely God knew that the Jews who could not recognize the promised messiah were not to be held guilty for that.

Anti-Semitism is entirely founded and solidly based, not upon God's will, but the evils of mankind, persecution and bigotry.

1) It's IMPOSSIBLE for the Jews to fail to recognize the Jewish Messiah, because there is a plethora of criteria available to aid in that recognition.
2) I'm not the one being obtuse. Your raising of the possibility of the Jewish nation not recognizing the Jewish Messiah is the ignorant portion of this discourse; not me.

The answer to your wonder: G-d didn't and won't send a Jewish Messiah that the Jews won't recognize. G-d has given enough information so that the Jewish Messiah WILL be recognized. Hence, the lack of acceptance of the dozens (if not hundreds) of failed/false Jewish Messiahs.

You completely missed what I was saying in the first place, in your rush to get at me.

Christians who blame the Jews (or the Pharisees in league with Rome to hold power) who did not accept Jesus as their promised messiah condemn the Jews for not accepting Jesus.

I was saying the Christians were in error for that idea BECAUSE Jesus did not match the "criteria" And He did not!!!

Therefore, the Jews were right, because Jesus was not their promised messiah, the Christians were right, in that Jesus Christ WAS their Messiah, and God knew all of that, God's Will was done as it happened.

But what interpretations mankind (or should I say, "mean-kind") have decided to twist it into have not been in any kind of benevolent attitudes, but rather to sow conflict and hostility in the cause of religions.

My message is that Christians and Jews really need to stop this endless strife about whose messiah or Messiah is the only one that God sends, ever.

If the Jews must still await their own messiah, then Christians need to pray to our Savior and God to fulfill the promise to the Hebrews who have suffered far longer and far more heinous persecutions for their faith than any in Christianity, including today.

:sigh:

muffler dragon

28th December 2007, 06:40 PM

You completely missed what I was saying in the first place, in your rush to get at me.

I wasn't in a rush. If I had been; then I wouldn't have asked you a question.

Therefore, the Jews were right, because Jesus was not their promised messiah, the Christians were right, in that Jesus Christ WAS their Messiah, and God knew all of that, God's Will was done as it happened.

To be honest, this makes no sense. There were no Christians at the time of Jesus. There were only Jews. Furthermore, the Jewish Messiah is the JEWISH Messiah; not the saviour of another non-existent people group. Therefore, I don't know what WILL you could be speaking of.

But what interpretations mankind (or should I say, "mean-kind") have decided to twist it into have not been in any kind of benevolent attitudes, but rather to sow conflict and hostility in the cause of religions.

Truth be told, the only hostility that you find from a Judaic point is reactionary. It's in response to the stimulus from another group. Therefore, any opportunity for benevolence from a Judaic side is minimal. Couple this with the facts that 1) Jesus is a non-entity for Jews and 2) Jews are non-evangelistic and non-judgmental towards the beliefs of others; and one can easily see where the onus lies.

My message is that Christians and Jews really need to stop this endless strife about whose messiah or Messiah is the only one that God sends, ever.

In accordance with what I just wrote above, I'll agree that there needs to be less angst. I'll probably disagree on who is responsible. But one other point to be made is that it's fine if Christians want to think of Jesus as their Messiah, but the Jewish segment is pretty much unsubstantiatable because of the points that we have thus far discussed.

Therefore, I would like to ask: do you feel that Jesus is your Savior, but that that consideration is completely separate or irrelevant to the Jewish Bible and Judaism as a whole?

If the Jews must still await their own messiah, then Christians need to pray to our Savior and God to fulfill the promise to the Hebrews who have suffered far longer and far more heinous persecutions for their faith than any in Christianity, including today.

:sigh:

Am I reading between the lines correctly when I infer that you are saying that your God is not the same as the G-d of Israel?

Latreia

28th December 2007, 06:59 PM

.....
To be honest, this makes no sense. There were no Christians at the time of Jesus. There were only Jews. Furthermore, the Jewish Messiah is the JEWISH Messiah; not the saviour of another non-existent people group. Therefore, I don't know what WILL you could be speaking of.

Truth be told, the only hostility that you find from a Judaic point is reactionary. It's in response to the stimulus from another gropu. Therefore, any opportunity for benevolence from a Judaic side is minimal. Couple this with the facts that 1) Jesus is a non-entity for Jews and 2) Jews are non-evangelistic and non-judgmental towards the beliefs of others; and one can easily see where the onus lies.

In accordance with what I just wrote above, I'll agree that there needs to be less angst. I'll probably disagree on who is responsible. But one other point to be made is that it's fine if Christians want to think of Jesus as their Messiah, but the Jewish segment is pretty much unsubstantiatable because of the points that we have thus far discussed.

Therefore, I would like to ask: do you feel that Jesus is your Savior, but that that consideration is completely separate or irrelevant to the Jewish Bible and Judaism as a whole?

Am I reading between the lines correctly when I infer that you are saying that your God is not the same as the G-d of Israel?

"...gropu...."???

If that is a misspelling of "groupie" you have fairly given notice of what all this is really about.

All I have to say to you is that you are distorting my comments to seem to imply things that have nothing to do with what I have tried to express.

And BTW, when I said "Christians" I most certainly meant Christians of later history than in the times of Jesus and those of modern day times.

Forget you. But thanks for reminding me why I always avoid replying to members with totally unknown CF Profiles.

:thumbsup:

simchat_torah

28th December 2007, 07:10 PM

It was a mispelling of "g r o u p" not groupie.

At least to me it is fairly obvious from the reading it was intended to be "Group".

fyi.

-Yafet

Latreia

28th December 2007, 07:18 PM

It was a mispelling of "g r o u p" not groupie.

At least to me it is fairly obvious from the reading it was intended to be "Group".

fyi.

-Yafet

Well, how swell is that.

You keep him/her/it company, since you like the cut of his jib.

;)

muffler dragon

28th December 2007, 08:44 PM

"...gropu...."???

If that is a misspelling of "groupie" you have fairly given notice of what all this is really about.

Out of my entire post, all you do is respond to a misspelling?

All I have to say to you is that you are distorting my comments to seem to imply things that have nothing to do with what I have tried to express.

Whatever.

And BTW, when I said "Christians" I most certainly meant Christians of later history than in the times of Jesus and those of modern day times.

Which, once again, makes no sense at all.

Forget you. But thanks for reminding me why I always avoid replying to members with totally unknown CF Profiles.

:thumbsup:

Ooohhh! All because I could give a rip about filling out information. Here's a newsflash: if someone wants to know something about me; then they can ask. I'm more interested in substance than presentation. At least, you've got plenty of the latter, but you may want to work on the former.

muffler dragon

28th December 2007, 08:48 PM

Well, how swell is that.

It's not "swell". It's actually common sense. How many words utilize the letters g, r, o, u, p? Not too many, but you happen to lump in two extra letters.

You keep him/her/it company, since you like the cut of his jib.

;)

Definitely acting your age now. Congratulations.

Henaynei

28th December 2007, 08:49 PM

You completely missed what I was saying in the first place, in your rush to get at me.

Christians who blame the Jews (or the Pharisees in league with Rome to hold power) who did not accept Jesus as their promised messiah condemn the Jews for not accepting Jesus.

I was saying the Christians were in error for that idea BECAUSE Jesus did not match the "criteria" And He did not!!!

Therefore, the Jews were right, because Jesus was not their promised messiah, the Christians were right, in that Jesus Christ WAS their Messiah, and God knew all of that, God's Will was done as it happened.

But what interpretations mankind (or should I say, "mean-kind") have decided to twist it into have not been in any kind of benevolent attitudes, but rather to sow conflict and hostility in the cause of religions.

My message is that Christians and Jews really need to stop this endless strife about whose messiah or Messiah is the only one that God sends, ever.

If the Jews must still await their own messiah, then Christians need to pray to our Savior and God to fulfill the promise to the Hebrews who have suffered far longer and far more heinous persecutions for their faith than any in Christianity, including today.

:sigh:almost seems that you have read Pastor Hagee's book, and believed it ... hmmm :sigh:

Latreia

28th December 2007, 09:51 PM

almost seems that you have read Pastor Hagee's book, and believed it ... hmmm :sigh:

No, I did not read his or any other evangelist's outpourings.

PLease do not further distort what I was trying to say, just because I forgot to say Orthodox Jews. I know there are Messianic, as well as myriad other beliefs all over CF.

But if I misspoke to such a degree that absolutely all readers here can find some way to misunderstand my support of both Israel and the vile anti-Semitism that keeps on blatantly appearing on CF., then not much I can do about that.

But I can't believe you didn't know me well enough to give me the benefit of a doubt.

That is too much. Just too much.

simchat_torah

29th December 2007, 01:05 AM

Well, how swell is that.

You keep him/her/it company, since you like the cut of his jib. lol, are you high?

You sound just like one of my friend's who is rarely off the mary jane.

Steve Petersen

29th December 2007, 01:52 PM

Jewish Messiah Criteria (http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/general-messiah-criteria.html)

You left in some criterias that were not met, I see:

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)

He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)

He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)

He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)

Being at the mercy of the Roman Empire does not fit the above just right.

You also left out the following, from the top of the page:

The Jewish tradition of "The Messiah" has its foundation in numerous biblical references, and understands "The Messiah" to be a human being - without any overtone of deity or divinity - who will bring about certain changes in the world and fulfill certain criteria before he can be acknowledged as "The Messiah".

Also, from the bottom of the article:

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.

;)

That is why we are called 'believers.'

BTW, why do so many former MJs/Christian who later converted to Judaism completely overlook the Rabbinic view of Messiah ben Joseph? It is pretty clear that the NT lines up with this messiah.

AdmirableArmstrong

29th December 2007, 03:43 PM

lol, are you high?

You sound just like one of my friend's who is rarely off the mary jane.

When a member is accused, just casually, of something of this nature, it can really backfire.

My wife is 63, and I never even smoked cigarettes in her life. Want to go for accusing her of doing other kinds of dope?

Furthermore, it is clear enough that we support, not only Israel, but Jews and their faith. When a Jewish icon appears in posts rediculing such a supporter, that just looks fishy.

Not even gefilte. But proceed, this gets more interesting.

:yawn:

simchat_torah

29th December 2007, 04:52 PM

Sorry but...
When someone creates a link out of thin air simply for the means of an flaming remark, ESPECIALLY WHEN I WAS HELPING HER UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS SAID, I really have to question the stability of the mind behind the post.

Let me spell it out clearly for you:
1) She misunderstood a simple misspelling of a word (not only that, but something that was obvious to start with)
2) I kindly point out the correct spelling that was intended
3) She makes a "flame" (a derrogatory post) by creating some weird link that didn't exist in reality

Because of her obvious nature to flame me by creating something out of thin air, especially when I was kind enough to point out that which should have been obvious to start with... I HAVE to question the stability of her mental state.

pure & simple.

You want people to not assume such? Post in a kind manner, not some ridiculous off the wall flame.

Now feel free to proceed.

simchat_torah

29th December 2007, 04:54 PM

Furthermore, it is clear enough that we support, not only Israel, but Jews and their faith. When a Jewish icon appears in posts rediculing such a supporter, that just looks fishy.
What does this have anything to do with anything?

Do you believe that aliens created man? That the government was behind the Kennedy assasination? That 9/11 was planned by Bush? That Bigfoot is from outer space?

torahgrandma

29th December 2007, 05:45 PM

I didn't whine to the moderators. Ill be honest... I was going to hit the report button on you, but it seems someone else already did it. LOL, it seems that I'm not the only one who tires of your antics around here HT.LOL, just because you put my name in the quote doesn't mean I said it. ROFLOL... nice try, but you fail at deception. Reroll?

Sorry...you and muff man both call me troll, and since you two act like one brain, I figured it might be you. So this is the one time when you didnt whine. My mistake. Now if you could just figure out how to spell grannie Mr Simple (no HT in my name), things would be great between us.

muffler dragon

30th December 2007, 04:41 AM

BTW, why do so many former MJs/Christian who later converted to Judaism completely overlook the Rabbinic view of Messiah ben Joseph? It is pretty clear that the NT lines up with this messiah.

Because your interpretation of the Midrashim doesn't even come close to the Jewish interpretation.

1) Messiah ben Yosef isn't a given as far as being real. There is also the personification of the yetzer hara consideration. But in the consideration that he is...
2) Messiah ben Yosef is a descendent of Ephraim; not David.
3) Messiah ben Yosef is a military warrior.
4) For the trinitarians, Messiah ben Yosef is never considered G-d incarnate.
5) Messiah ben Yosef and Messiah ben David live at the same time.
6) Messiah ben Yosef has no claim to the throne of David/Israel.
7) Messiah ben Yosef is killed in battle and raised by Messiah ben David.

muffler dragon

30th December 2007, 04:46 AM

When a member is accused, just casually, of something of this nature, it can really backfire.

How so?

My wife is 63, and I never even smoked cigarettes in her life. Want to go for accusing her of doing other kinds of dope?

What does your non-smoking habit have to do with your wife? Btw, asking if someone is high is not an accusation. It's an inquiry. Instability in presentation can be the result of many things; one of which is medicinal.

Furthermore, it is clear enough that we support, not only Israel, but Jews and their faith. When a Jewish icon appears in posts rediculing such a supporter, that just looks fishy.

What's this got to do with the price of tea in China?

Not even gefilte. But proceed, this gets more interesting.

:yawn:

No? I had always that that matzos balls were quite tasty when topped with a nice clam sauce. :eek:

muffler dragon

30th December 2007, 04:49 AM

Sorry...you and muff man both call me troll, and since you two act like one brain, I figured it might be you. So this is the one time when you didnt whine. My mistake.

Wasn't me either. I like to engage. No reason to be a proponent for censoring or banning.

simchat_torah

30th December 2007, 05:37 AM

Sorry...you and muff man both call me troll,lol, stating simple truth is not trolling. You are Higher_Truth with a different/new/sock account.

simchat_torah

30th December 2007, 05:40 AM

Wasn't me either. I like to engage. heh, I knew it wasn't you... but i'm wondering who was it? I mean dozens have already raised questions about Higher_Truth's banning coming back as grannie, but which person actually reported? ;)

Henaynei

30th December 2007, 07:22 PM

No, I did not read his or any other evangelist's outpourings.

Please do not further distort what I was trying to say, just because I forgot to say Orthodox Jews. I know there are Messianic, as well as myriad other beliefs all over CF.

But if I misspoke to such a degree that absolutely all readers here can find some way to misunderstand my support of both Israel and the vile anti-Semitism that keeps on blatantly appearing on CF., then not much I can do about that.

But I can't believe you didn't know me well enough to give me the benefit of a doubt.

That is too much. Just too much.

I did not distort :) I said "it almost seems...." I made no claim that you had, only that what you have to say is very similar to that which fell from the mouth and pen of Pastor Hagee.almost seems that you have read Pastor Hagee's book, and believed it ... hmmm :sigh:

Yeshua spoke plainly and was very public about his message and ministry up to the point where the Jewish leaders deliberately rejected him ... then from there on he spoke in their presence only in parables and when doing Messianic Miracles would tell those who saw "don't tell" ...

certainly one can't believe that foretold from the scriptures and coming as foretold, coming to the Jew first, coming for the "Lost sheep of Israel" that he did not come for the Jews as their Messiah .... even Rav Sha'ul said the message was "to the Jew first..."

most of what is claimed he didn't do was either oral tradition or was for his second coming ... due to the oppression of the period they wanted a physical deliverance much more than a spiritual one ... and their own scriptures told them of a suffering Messiah, Ben Yosef .... separate from the conquering Messiah, ben Dovid .... the leadership chose to reject Ben Yosef for fear he might also be Ben Dovid and topple their nice little "kingdom" and cause the Romans to descend .... but eventually they did chose a conquering Messiah, Bar Kokhba, who led them into a disastrous war which destroyed Israel ...

torahgrandma

30th December 2007, 09:50 PM

heh, I knew it wasn't you... but i'm wondering who was it? I mean dozens have already raised questions about Higher_Truth's banning coming back as grannie, but which person actually reported? ;)

and:

lol, stating simple truth is not trolling. You are Higher_Truth with a different/new/sock account.

Since you appear to be so fixated with Higher Truth, here is an article that can be found on the net, written by him for your enjoyment:

{Staff edit}

Since it appears that you miss him so much, every time you bring him up I will post another link for an article so you will not feel abandoned. ;)

simchat_torah

31st December 2007, 01:02 AM

We don't need more evidence of who you are, we already know.

But thanks for the banned link.

simchat_torah

31st December 2007, 01:04 AM

Oh, and no... I don't miss him/you. I just wish you'd drop the hat already, that's all. But then again, just like a child you keep it up because it annoys others.

typical.

torahgrandma

31st December 2007, 10:52 AM

We don't need more evidence of who you are, we already know.

But thanks......

Well then here sir, you may have another:

http://www.seekgod.ca/htname.htm

It must be hard for you to type with one finger on the report button all of the time.

torahgrandma

31st December 2007, 11:05 AM

But thanks for the banned link.

Banned by who Simchat? Former mods like yourself who are no longer mods now that they have chosen a different, modified variant of orthodox Christianity, or have denied Jesus and converted to noachide or fully to Judaism?

That link was to a Christian site Simchat.Why would someone ban a link to a Christian website from a Christian forum unless they were anti Christian?

simchat_torah

31st December 2007, 05:04 PM

Banned by who Simchat? Former mods like yourself who are no longer mods now that they have chosen a different, modified variant of orthodox Christianity, or have denied Jesus and converted to noachide or fully to Judaism?

That link was to a Christian site Simchat.Why would someone ban a link to a Christian website from a Christian forum unless they were anti Christian?I didn't ban the site when I was a mod. Pray4Isrel, Henaynei, Insaneinthebrain and others at the time banned it. It was banned specifically in this subforum, as you well know, because it contains much anti-Messianic rhetoric.

The KKK are christians, but in a subforum for African Americans I wouldn't think linking to KKK would be appropriate. Same with the links you continue to provide, despite the rules of our forum.

muffler dragon

31st December 2007, 05:41 PM

torahgrandma

31st December 2007, 08:24 PM

I It was banned specifically in this subforum, as you well know, because it contains much anti-Messianic rhetoric.

I am not sure what "anti-messianic rhetoric" is, so work with me on this. Would that be like the statements that you make against Christian and Messianic beliefs?

Your mic.....

simchat_torah

31st December 2007, 11:12 PM

I am not sure what "anti-messianic rhetoric" is, so work with me on this. Would that be like the statements that you make against Christian and Messianic beliefs?

Your mic.....Hmm, if I made any they must be on another forum and not here. But none the less, one is free to discuss their point of view, but the community holds the right to protect itself against whatever it deems necessary... and the community has ruled to protect itself by banning said link. Not by banning me or any other Jew who visits the forum.

Well, to be correct, you were banned as another account, but that isn't what we're discussing.

Nice red herring. Try again?

HephzibahBenJudah

1st January 2008, 08:03 AM

AS Jesus Himself said...He didn't come to do away with the law or the prophets but to fulfill them...That being said then look at what Isaiah said in the OT and what James said in the NT.

Isa 58:6 not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

Isa 58:7 not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

Isa 58:8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward.

Isa 58:9 Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I [am]. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;

Isa 58:10 And [if] thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness as the noonday:

Isa 58:11 And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.

Isa 58:12 And [they that shall be] of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, [from] doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking [thine own] words:

Isa 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it].
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;

Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Isa 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
[B]The Bridge that spans the gap between God and man...between the OT and NT between Jew and Gentile is JESUS.
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

[I]Jam 1:27 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Jam&c=1&v=27&version=KJV#27)[I] Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.

torahgrandma

1st January 2008, 12:54 PM

… but the community holds the right to protect itself against whatever it deems necessary...

And Christian Forums is a “community” which is based on the Nicene creed, the same creed which confirms the triune nature of God and the Deity of Christ. Two points of the many points that you disagree with, and voice this disagreement openly.

http://www.seekgod.ca (http://www.seekgod.ca/) is a Christian website that agrees with the Nicene creed, so your logic for wanting it banned is?

…and the community has ruled to protect itself by banning said link. Not by banning me or any other Jew who visits the forum….

The same “mods” who voiced that the website should not be allowed, are the same former mods who disagreed with the Nicene creed on various points as you did on your personal journey which ended up in your conversion to Judaism from Christianity, hence they and you are no longer mods on the forum. Christian forums now has a new owner who appears to adhere to the Nicene creed. Maybe you should take this up with him.

Well, to be correct, you were banned as another account, but that isn't what we're discussing.

Have you read this article from this Christian website yet?

http://www.seekgod.ca/malgoodman.htm

Nice red herring. Try again?

Actually it is white fish Simchat. Gefilte.

simchat_torah

1st January 2008, 05:48 PM

And Christian Forums is a “community” which is based on the Nicene creed, the same creed which confirms the triune nature of God and the Deity of Christ. Two points of the many points that you disagree with, and voice this disagreement openly.
Here's the major difference:
I have the freedom to believe differently. However, I do not advocate anyone to believe as me, nor do I teach others to believe as I do. Merely because I believe differently doesn't mean I can't post here.

In order to protect itself, the community has deemed it against the rules to post the website which you continually post over and over again.

torahgrandma

1st January 2008, 08:53 PM

Here's the major difference:
I have the freedom to believe differently. However, I do not advocate anyone to believe as me, nor do I teach others to believe as I do. Merely because I believe differently doesn't mean I can't post here.

You have every right to believe what you wish Simchat, but you are not here to learn about Jesus, because you were once a Christian, so what is the exercise all about? after reading many of your remarks about how you "grew" and learned "the truth" now, it appears to me as being a subtle form of counter missionary activity.You are welcome to post away till your heart is content (it isn't my forum), but please don't try to tell me what is good for the Christians on this forum.That would be the new owners decision.

Genesis 3
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, You shall not surely die: