Creative power of the tongue? Your thoughts

[daveleau]

Hi everyone,

I grew up in a Pentecostal Holiness church, which was not a charismatic Pentecostal, but a very legalistic-based church. Then we moved to charismatic non-denom. I have since moved on, while my family back home moved to a very large charismatic (VERY charismatic) church.

Because of the pastor's associations and people he supports, I have been watching out for them moving to a prosperity gospel slant. I have spoken with them about name-it-claim-its, and asked them why their pastor supports these pastors. I feel that full-blown name-it-claim-it will turn them off, but, one of my aunts has been talking a lot about the church's teachings on the creative power of the tongue. Basically, she says that someone can speak evil or good into another person's life. For instance, if you talk down to your children and denigrate them, then you are basically calling down evil upon them because of the "creative power of the tongue."

I believe that the tongue is a double-edged sword that can cut others, and she referred to this in telling me about this revelation from the "apostle" that preaches at their church. (Don't get me started on that title...and please don't let that derail, either)

Is this a precursor of name-it-claim-it?

Also, is the multi-level marketing (MLM) in today's church another name for name-it-claim-it? When I did my search on this topic, I found a lot of stuff talking about MLM in the church.

The church is Redemption World Outreach (http://www.rwoconline.org/). They used to have their sermon archive online, but have recently taken it down, and put passwords on several portions of their page, including the "apostle's" wife's blog for women's minstries.

It smells weird to me, but I don't want to jump to conclusions, as I do not know.

Thanks for any help!

Dave

[ladyt28]

one of my aunts has been talking a lot about the church's teachings on the creative power of the tongue. Basically, she says that someone can speak evil or good into another person's life. For instance, if you talk down to your children and denigrate them, then you are basically calling down evil upon them because of the "creative power of the tongue."

How would this differ from the concept of putting 'curses' on people?

[daveleau]

Good point. She also spoke of the positive side, and how you can lift someone up with your words. To me, it seemed logical, but the reason for it was my problem with it, as I do not believe there is any creative force outside of God, the Creator.

I mean, one can talk down to someone and discourage them, or talk highly of someone to lift them up. That is normal human tendency. But, to link this with a "creative force of the tongue?"

[Cromwe11]

There is great power in the tongue. All spiritual stuff aside, how we speak to other people has a great impact on them, and us.

In spiritual terms, words have power as well.


The problem with the standard prosperity views on this is not so much that they believe in the power of the spoken word, but the application they apply to it.

Prosperity teaching skirts the line on a number of doctrinal issues, but their real problem is deeper than an external doctrine, its their foundational outlook.

There are two core truths at the heart of Christianity, upon which all other truths rest. We are great sinners, and Jesus Christ is Lord of Lords.
I love, love love, the line in Amazing Grace when John Newton says "my memory is failing, but I remember two things very clearly, I am a great sinner, and Jesus Christ is a GREAT Savior."

Most prosperity doctrine is based on ignoring the first part of that equation, and the result is that the second part gets skewed as well.

In the prosperity doctrine, you admit you were a sinner before you met Christ, but no longer.. you are now a King, yada yada yada. Everything focuses on telling you how great you are. Its a lot like the modern infatuation with having good self image.. which is why so much of that part of the church just looks like a big motivational/self help conference.

Anyway, when you start from the realization that you are a great sinner, it does two things. First it increases the depth of your love for God because as Jesus says, he who has been forgiven much, will love much, he who has been forgiven little will love little. They have placed so much focus on their "identity in God" that they have lost track of both the fact that they still do things wrong, and they still need forgiveness.
The second thing is connected, when you forget how great a sinner you are, and begin to exalt yourself, it diminishes the Lordship of Jesus Christ in relationship to you.

This is where things come back to the issue the OP raised. The spoken word is powerful. But, in prosperity teaching, people are taught to try and use that power according to their own will. They are taught to use it selfishly. Because they are constantly told how they are kings and they need to use the executive authority they have been given, there is no thought of submitting yourself to God, or the Lordship of Christ and only acting from his direction.

You see this in how they relate to spiritual warfare as well. The bible clearly teaches that we have the ability to wage spiritual war, to resist the devil and he will flee, etc.
So they do so, very flippantly and in a exuberant, self indulgent manner. They forget the first part of the verse is "submit yourself to God, resist the devil and he will flee."

So the issue is not that they believe in the power of the spoken word, or the power of the tongue.. but how are they teaching people to act in regards to it. It could very easily end up in the prosperity camp... or it might not.. it all depends on how they are presenting it.

[ContentInHim]

Good point. She also spoke of the positive side, and how you can lift someone up with your words. To me, it seemed logical, but the reason for it was my problem with it, as I do not believe there is any creative force outside of God, the Creator.

I mean, one can talk down to someone and discourage them, or talk highly of someone to lift them up. That is normal human tendency. But, to link this with a "creative force of the tongue?"
The doctrine of speaking positive or negative into your life is usually that - into your life and not another's. My sis-in-law is very very into this and you are not allow to utter one negative thing about yourself, lest the enemy use it to gain a foothold into your spirit. Mostly hogwash except, of course, that we as saved believers should be talking positive stuff not negative anyway.

It's quite a New Agey idea when you think about it. Nothing about a savior, nothing about being saved, etc. Just yourself! :(

[ladyt28]

Do the people who believe in this have any response to thinking negative thoughts or is there only power in actually speaking them?

[Colabomb]

Hi everyone,

I grew up in a Pentecostal Holiness church, which was not a charismatic Pentecostal, but a very legalistic-based church. Then we moved to charismatic non-denom. I have since moved on, while my family back home moved to a very large charismatic (VERY charismatic) church.

Because of the pastor's associations and people he supports, I have been watching out for them moving to a prosperity gospel slant. I have spoken with them about name-it-claim-its, and asked them why their pastor supports these pastors. I feel that full-blown name-it-claim-it will turn them off, but, one of my aunts has been talking a lot about the church's teachings on the creative power of the tongue. Basically, she says that someone can speak evil or good into another person's life. For instance, if you talk down to your children and denigrate them, then you are basically calling down evil upon them because of the "creative power of the tongue."

I believe that the tongue is a double-edged sword that can cut others, and she referred to this in telling me about this revelation from the "apostle" that preaches at their church. (Don't get me started on that title...and please don't let that derail, either)

Is this a precursor of name-it-claim-it?

Also, is the multi-level marketing (MLM) in today's church another name for name-it-claim-it? When I did my search on this topic, I found a lot of stuff talking about MLM in the church.

The church is Redemption World Outreach (http://www.rwoconline.org/) (http://www.rwoconline.org/%29). They used to have their sermon archive online, but have recently taken it down, and put passwords on several portions of their page, including the "apostle's" wife's blog for women's minstries.

It smells weird to me, but I don't want to jump to conclusions, as I do not know.

Thanks for any help!

Dave

Sounds like Magick.

[Skellington]

I've avoided posting these lyrics until now, but they fit perfectly.

CHRISTCENTRIC REFORMATION LYRICS
Apostasy (Evangel)

It hurts and I'm grieving, first seen thru a cursory reading,
there'll be persons misleading, the church in deceiving!
Lovers of self, coveting wealth,
with more care for their welfare but not the governments' help!
Their hot topics shows god is their appetites,
they're not prophets- and they'll get charred in the afterlife!
They say you'll rise from debt, while the prophets get
to pocket checks for private jets!
and new better facilities, thru their theft ability,
and all along the ministry is losing credibility!
They think mammon is excellence, a scamming that represents,
today's church standing in decadence!
Just examine and check against,
churches in other countries hungry in famine and pestilence!
Such a stark reality,
God's no respecter of persons showing partiality!

A packed house for the Word of Faith,
the church to date needs to put them back out like invertebrates!
They say don't have doubts- claim it,
and put the power in the tongue and say name it!
It's a shame it's getting over cuz we don't know the,
only one that can speak things into existence is Jehovah!
Their heretical foul tactics,
has got me losing my patience like medical malpractice!
He's no parts supplier,
and your faith's no streetcar- u can't name your hearts desire!
If all your requests is always a yes,
why wasn't Paul healed from His thorn in the flesh?
Apparently, aren't we, to draw from this,
u can't guarantee your wish inerrantly!
They're promised to be rich- they shout at times boasting,
if you're ears itch then switch to calomine lotion!

Lord stop me if I'm clowning with hate,
You said rebuke them sharply to make 'em sound in the faith!
Many believe their claims, I'm pleading on their behalf,
in Jesus' name to spare Your wrath!
To them we've lost some of our dearest people,
they're deceitful, here to ensnare your sheepfold!
In Your immortalized word of God its pretold,
certified right before our eyes like a peephole!
Your word says we should stand in contentment,
many are deceived please grant them repentance!
Before they see Christ, coming like a thief in the night
w/o Gladys, and won't need march to bring madness!
To whack off the masses,
then there won't be time to hit the sackcloth and ashes!

-Its apostasy, this was prophecy,
in the last days many shall depart from Thee!
Thinking cash pays living irresponsibly,
Lord, I ask change hearts to respond to Thee!-4x

[Jim47]

I'm probably not answering the question you want, but my questions is why would you want anything to do with a legalistic church? We are not saved by observing the law nor can we do anything to merit God's grace. It is solely by His grace as a gift to us that we are saved. The law only condemns and makes us feel equal to Satan and he will fully support that. Satan's greatest wish is to make us feel unworthy and take us with him on all his guilt trips, but through Christ Jesus we have no condemnation. We are made righteous through Him and only through Him.

Jesus direction to us is to go into all the world spreading His gospil, not preaching the law. The law is useful only to convict us of our sins and show us the need for a Savior. Once it has done that it serves only as a guide and a mirror so that we may strive to live lives that honor God, but...

...again, we are not saved by observing the law.

Read Ephesians 2:1-10 and all of Romans for a starter, and Dave I am fully aware that what I have said is nothing new to you. I wrote this for the bennefit of others in trying to do my part of spreading the "Christmas message" :clap:



http://ak.imgag.com/imgag/product/full/ap/3040053/graphic1.jpg


Lk 2:6 While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born,
Lk 2:7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.
The Shepherds and the Angels
Lk 2:8 And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night.
Lk 2:9 An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified.
Lk 2:10 But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.
Lk 2:11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord.
Lk 2:12 This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger."
Lk 2:13 Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,
Lk 2:14 "Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests."
Lk 2:15 When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, "Let’s go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about."
Lk 2:16 So they hurried off and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby, who was lying in the manger.
Lk 2:17 When they had seen him, they spread the word concerning what had been told them about this child,
Lk 2:18 and all who heard it were amazed at what the shepherds said to them.
Lk 2:19 But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart.
Lk 2:20 The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things they had heard and seen, which were just as they had been told.

[hopeinGod]

One of my former charismatic pastors is now a very successful missionary in Brazil. He has admitted to his friends that it is the fact that he continued for decades to confess with his mouth his heart's desire and that is what brought his present ministry to pass. In other words, he spoke it into being.

It would be an even further stretch for someone who is without an arm or leg to believe that in making positive confessions their desired limb will manifest. But, even that is believed possible by the positive community.

Does this suggest we who doubt such assertions have no faith? I believe, but help my unbelief, I'd say.

Dave

[FallingWaters]

I would do a word study especially in the Proverbs on these words:
tongue, mouth, lips, and words

[DerSchweik]

Because of the pastor's associations and people he supports, I have been watching out for them moving to a prosperity gospel slant. I have spoken with them about name-it-claim-its, and asked them why their pastor supports these pastors. I feel that full-blown name-it-claim-it will turn them off, but, one of my aunts has been talking a lot about the church's teachings on the creative power of the tongue. Basically, she says that someone can speak evil or good into another person's life. For instance, if you talk down to your children and denigrate them, then you are basically calling down evil upon them because of the "creative power of the tongue."

It smells weird to me, but I don't want to jump to conclusions, as I do not know.

I agree - it smells weird to me as well.

I'm not familiar with the specifics of this group, and my comments are by no means an exegesis of the topic.

What bothers me is the phrase "creative power of the tongue." What smells in that phrase is a sort of humanism, wherein a human, with the power to conceive of something good (or bad), has some attendant power to bring it about by merely uttering some words.

Whose tongue? Some person's tongue.

The power of their tongue? Creative (or destructive?).

Where does this "power" come from? What sanction gives power to their tongue? What is the extent of that power, its limits, its boundaries? And how is one to know?

Jesus warned us to be careful what we say, for what passes our lips as words, comes directly from our hearts. He said it is our words that will some day either justify or judge us.

"When there are many words, sin is unavoidable; but he who restrains his lips is wise." Prov 10:19

"He who restrains his words has knowledge..." and "Even a fool, when he keeps silent, is considered wise; when he closes his lips, he is counted prudent." (Prov 17:27f)

So it concerns me when there are those who feel there is power, creative power no less, in a man's tongue, that man can, with his tongue, create something that did not, or would not otherwise exist unless he somehow create it through his personal power of utterance.

Just an opinion - but isn't this a form of humanism - of putting power into a man's mouth and his ability to utter things into being that did not exist prior?

[daveleau]

I'm probably not answering the question you want, but my questions is why would you want anything to do with a legalistic church? We are not saved by observing the law nor can we do anything to merit God's grace. It is solely by His grace as a gift to us that we are saved. The law only condemns and makes us feel equal to Satan and he will fully support that. Satan's greatest wish is to make us feel unworthy and take us with him on all his guilt trips, but through Christ Jesus we have no condemnation. We are made righteous through Him and only through Him.

Jesus direction to us is to go into all the world spreading His gospil, not preaching the law. The law is useful only to convict us of our sins and show us the need for a Savior. Once it has done that it serves only as a guide and a mirror so that we may strive to live lives that honor God, but...

...again, we are not saved by observing the law.

Read Ephesians 2:1-10 and all of Romans for a starter, and Dave I am fully aware that what I have said is nothing new to you. I wrote this for the bennefit of others in trying to do my part of spreading the "Christmas message" :clap:



http://ak.imgag.com/imgag/product/full/ap/3040053/graphic1.jpg


Lk 2:6 While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born,
Lk 2:7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.
The Shepherds and the Angels
Lk 2:8 And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night.
Lk 2:9 An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified.
Lk 2:10 But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.
Lk 2:11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord.
Lk 2:12 This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger."
Lk 2:13 Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,
Lk 2:14 "Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests."
Lk 2:15 When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, "Let’s go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about."
Lk 2:16 So they hurried off and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby, who was lying in the manger.
Lk 2:17 When they had seen him, they spread the word concerning what had been told them about this child,
Lk 2:18 and all who heard it were amazed at what the shepherds said to them.
Lk 2:19 But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart.
Lk 2:20 The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things they had heard and seen, which were just as they had been told.






Hi Jim,

I am no longer part of that legalistic church. I now attend a Bible-following Baptist church.

In Him,
Dave