Messianic Conflict

[nasa1]

Galatians 5:1-7 NIV

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.


Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

7You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you.





Obviously some Judaizers were trying to get the Galatians to accept the Mosaic Covenent as a convert to Judaism. Paul is against this with all his heart: you cannot be a convert and a disciple of Jesus at the same time. He says that anyone who would suggest such a thing is being influenced by satan (by implication, since Paul said that the persuasion to convert did not come from the one that calls us - God.)


But Paul says something very interesting. He says that if anyone gets converted by act of circumcision, that person is obligated to keep the whole Torah. Is not Paul suggesting that to be obligated to keep the whole Torah is to be in slavery?



Messianic Judaism preaches that the whole Torah is to be kept. Isn't there a problem here?


nasa

[nasa1]

I guess this truly is a conflct. The Messianics don't have an answer for this.

Praise the Lord, the Word of God destroys false movements and ways of thinking!


NASA

[Tea]

The Mosaic covenant given by G-d is for a child 8 days of age. It seems that Moses also gave as a free will offering.
Not sure that any man is intitled to tell another man that he must be circumcied. Doesn't fall within the guide lines of circumcision from G-d
Paul also took Timothy and had him circumcised. So I don't know that he was against circumcision.

Not that I think this reply is going to tone down your trumpet blowing.

T

[A_Pioneer]

Galatians 5:1-7 NIV

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.


Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

7You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you.





Obviously some Judaizers were trying to get the Galatians to accept the Mosaic Covenent as a convert to Judaism. Paul is against this with all his heart: you cannot be a convert and a disciple of Jesus at the same time. He says that anyone who would suggest such a thing is being influenced by satan (by implication, since Paul said that the persuasion to convert did not come from the one that calls us - God.)


But Paul says something very interesting. He says that if anyone gets converted by act of circumcision, that person is obligated to keep the whole Torah. Is not Paul suggesting that to be obligated to keep the whole Torah is to be in slavery?



Messianic Judaism preaches that the whole Torah is to be kept. Isn't there a problem here?


nasa
Nasa, I don't want to get into a squable with you, but for salvation you don't have to keep one commandment!!
But, on the other hand Yeshua said and I quote "If you love me keep the commandments."
Then he says that your righteousness must "exceed" that of the Pharisees if you want to enter into the kingdom. Mt. 5:20, 7:21 Not everyone who says Lord, Lord; 18:3 Humble as a child; Mr. 10:23 it is hard to enter; Jn. 3:5 born of water and the spirit; so it is infinitely harder to enter the kingdom than it is to be saved wouldn't you say?

Keep faith and you ARE saved! BUT?

Shalom

[simchat_torah]

Not sure that any man is intitled to tell another man that he must be circumcied. I've never met a Jew who encourages conversion.

ever.

[ContraMundum]

Paul, being a Jew and in agreement with the Torah and even the Rabbis, never taught that Gentiles should keep the whole Mosiac covenant.

"IMHO" :) (Hi Henny!)

Some MJs disagree and think that both Jew and Gentile should keep the whole of the Torah- so I guess nasa's question is best directed towards them. Then there's those who think Jews are still under obligation to do so, but Gentiles not. Then there's those who think no-one is under the obligation, but they are free to remember the moedim etc.

Enjoy! :)

[Henaynei]

I guess this truly is a conflct. The Messianics don't have an answer for this.

Praise the Lord, the Word of God destroys false movements and ways of thinking!


NASAwhat many of us don't have is a desire to argue this once again... there are untold numbers of threads on this site that have had this discussion ad nauseam and if you truly want to know the answer you might find it more instructive to peruse some of those ...

(shalom Contra)

[Baruch41]

Paul, being a Jew and in agreement with the Torah and even the Rabbis, never taught that Gentiles should keep the whole Mosiac covenant.

Some MJs disagree and think that both Jew and Gentile should keep the whole of the Torah- so I guess nasa's question is best directed towards them.


Agree.

[HephzibahBenJudah]

This too one way or the other doesn't hold bearing on "salvation by Jesus."

HOWEVER, As a nurse speaking medically...it is best for a male child to be circumcised. Because of the bacterial infections that leaving the foreskin on can cause as well as bladder and kidney infections and disorders in reproduction. Therefore, (sorry guys) I'd say there are far too many health benefits to ignore the Mosaic law in this. My son was circumcised but not on the 8th day but a day after birth while still in the hospital.

The choice is up to you.

[Yareach]

I've never met a Jew who encourages conversion.

ever.

Shalom simchat_torah.

While this is very true of modern Judaism, I am not quite sure this was the view of all forms of Judaism in the 2nd Temple Period. Matthew 23:15 indicates that some did engage in some form of proselytizing. Louis Feldman defends this view in, Jew and Gentile in the Ancient World (1993). I would tend to agree with this position based on (a) the prevalence of "God-fearers" and (b) missionary activity in the Hebrew Bible (to which I would refer to, Mission in the Old Testament by Walter Kaiser). The shift in this regards to this issue, I believe, is heavily related to the absolutely horrible persecution of Jews in the Second Temple Period as well as some practices (e.g. possible shifts in Temple access for gentiles).

That aside, conversion activity was active in the early Apostolic Church and among those who "converted". This included people from a variety of groups, including Pharisees, Hellenist Jews, and those from more grey areas like Samaritans.

Yet back to the original thread idea, in the New Testament there is an issue where there were those (believers in Yeshua of some sorts; Acts 15 indicates they were Pharisees who believed Yeshua was the Messiah) who were compelling the uncircumcised to become circumcized to be saved / become justified. Whatever we call these people (Christians, Jews who believed in Yeshua, Jewish-Christians, the party of the circumcision?) we do know that within the early circle there were those who believe uncircumcized believers in Yeshua needed to become circumcized to be saved.

[Yareach]

Obviously some Judaizers were trying to get the Galatians to accept the Mosaic Covenent as a convert to Judaism.

Is it so obvious? For example, right or wrong, you are reading in the terms, "Mosaic Covenant" and "convert to Judaism".

It isn't palpably clear to me those are the primary issues or the concepts Paul is identifying.

Paul is against this with all his heart

Yes, whatever is at issue, Paul is 100% against it.

But Paul says something very interesting. He says that if anyone gets converted by act of circumcision, that person is obligated to keep the whole Torah.

Lets apply your line of logic. Paul had Timothy circumcized (acts 16:3). So did Paul condemn Timothy to "a yoke of slavery" (Gal 5:1) and that "Christ [was] no value" to him (v.2) and that he was "obligated to obey the whole law" (v.3)? And ultimately that Timothy was "aliented from Christ" and had "fallen away from grace" (v.4)?

Yet Paul has this to say of our dear brother Timothy:

NIV 1 Corinthians 4:17 For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.

NIV 1 Corinthians 16:10 If Timothy comes, see to it that he has nothing to fear while he is with you, for he is carrying on the work of the Lord, just as I am.

NIV 2 Timothy 1:5 I have been reminded of your sincere faith, which first lived in your grandmother Lois and in your mother Eunice and, I am persuaded, now lives in you also.

The condemnation of "being circumcized" doesn't align with Paul's view of Timothy. Could it be the reason for being circumcised? That was the debate in Acts 15--circumcision to obtain salvation. Indeed, Paul identifies the motives of those in Galatians 5 as being the same:

NIV Galatians 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. (bold and italics mine)

In Paul's view justification can only come through the work of Yeshua (IMO, Paul draws a clear distinction between Justification and Sanctification, something that is familiar in Christian circles as well, see e.g. Reformed theology which sees the role of obediance to the commandments as an issue of holy living/sanctification).

Interestingly, Paul ends his small dialogue here with this quote:

NIV Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

The phrase, "circumcision nor uncircumcision" has a couple of parallels in Paul's writings:

NIV Galatians 6:15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.

NIV 1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.

What "counts" for Paul is:

* faith expressing itself through love
* is [being] a new creation
* keeping God's commands

For Paul the idea of "being a new creation" and "faith expressed through love" are not diametrically opposed to "keeping God's commands". This would be the approach of most Messianics as well--we do not see the New Covenant opposed to obedience to life in the Spirit or New Covenant. Indeed, we see Torah observance as a part of such (e.g. Jer 31, Ezek 36,37).

Messianic Judaism preaches that the whole Torah is to be kept. Isn't there a problem here?

While, like Christianity, there is a lot of variety in Messianic though, most would agree that trying to be justified through works (like circumcision) is a dead end. It is a matter of faith, of which Yeshua is the crescendo of YHWH's promises.

[Yareach]

I guess this truly is a conflct. The Messianics don't have an answer for this.

Praise the Lord, the Word of God destroys false movements and ways of thinking!


NASA

Nasa, do you see how this post may have been receieved as inflammitory? Members don't always visit at the same regularity to answer questions within 4 days and/or wish to re-engage tired debates.

So lets leave the blustery banter aside and focus on charitable dialogue. Thanks!

[Athaliamum]

Nasa hasn't been around for a while. She either moved on or was kicked off....

[ozell]

Galatians 5:1-7 NIV

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.


Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

7You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you.





Obviously some Judaizers were trying to get the Galatians to accept the Mosaic Covenent as a convert to Judaism. Paul is against this with all his heart: you cannot be a convert and a disciple of Jesus at the same time. He says that anyone who would suggest such a thing is being influenced by satan (by implication, since Paul said that the persuasion to convert did not come from the one that calls us - God.)


But Paul says something very interesting. He says that if anyone gets converted by act of circumcision, that person is obligated to keep the whole Torah. Is not Paul suggesting that to be obligated to keep the whole Torah is to be in slavery?



Messianic Judaism preaches that the whole Torah is to be kept. Isn't there a problem here?


nasa

Hi Nasa

In case you are lurking

here is a future event that will involve the stranger when the Lord set up his kingdom

Ezekiel44v1-9

1: Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.
2: Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.
3: It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.
4: Then brought he me the way of the north gate before the house: and I looked, and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD: and I fell upon my face.
5: And the LORD said unto me, Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the LORD, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary.
6: And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations,
7: In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations.
8: And ye have not kept the charge of mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of my charge in my sanctuary for yourselves.
9: Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.