How come the biggest scandals come from Pentecostal / Charismatic ministers?

[Questioning Christian]

I don't want cop-out answers like "well, they're defeating the kingdom of darkness, so Satan is after them". Look at Charles Stanley et al, and they are bashing in Satan's kingdom, but you don't see the big-scale scandals like you do with Charismatics.

Besides, there are PLENTY of people the devil is after [because they are destroying his kingdom] whom he finds NOTHING to expose about. That's because they chose to keep their pants up, their books clean, and their hearts right before God.

But for some reason, there seems to be an epidemic of sexual and financial wrongdoings in the Charismatic church.

I submit that we have allowed an atmosphere which winks at certain wrongs, while choosing to call fire down on others. It is a sad day when we don't view the TV preachers sins as "offending the little ones" but then on the other hand, we're quick to call out judgment on the little ones, using "touch not mine anointed" as a deflection from the rightful judgment of our favorite TV preacher.

Satan is doing enough damage when the preachers give occasion to the enemy to blaspheme; we don't need to compound it by falsely accusing people of "touching God's anointed".

The sin in a scandal is with the offender - not with the offender's critics.

Elijah needs to rise up in authority against Ahab and say...

"I am not the troublemaker; but it is YOU and your fathers who have troubled the house of Israel."

[Svt4Him]

Can you cite where the biggest come from the PC movement? Do you mean abuse? Fraud? Sex?

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I don't want cop-out answers like "well, they're defeating the kingdom of darkness, so Satan is after them". Look at Charles Stanley et al, and they are bashing in Satan's kingdom, but you don't see the big-scale scandals like you do with Charismatics.

Besides, there are PLENTY of people the devil is after whom he finds NOTHING to expose about. [B]That's because they chose to keep their pants up, their books clean, and their hearts right before God.
:thumbsup:
reps coming.

[Questioning Christian]

Can you cite where the biggest come from the PC movement? Do you mean abuse? Fraud? Sex?

"Scandal" and "Pentecostalism" have become synonymous.

It would be kinda silly for me to start citing a bunch of things which are widely common knowledge. It would be like citing gravity statistics which state that the force pulls you toward the ground. All a person has to do is open their eyes and see that many of the big-time scandal accusations are laid at the door of Pentecostals and Charismatics.

Allright ... you want a list? ^_^

Um, for starters ...

Swaggart
Bakker
W.V. Grant Jr
Robert Tilton
Clarence McClendon
Earl Paulk
Oral Roberts [8 Million dollars, or God's gonna kill me]
Richard Roberts
Peter Popoff
Larry Lea

Come on, now. The list grows every day, and more and more Charismatics will be exposed.

[ECHELON]

I'm sorry but for you to make such a claim I think you should prove what you're saying before you ask us why it is what you say it is.

I p[ersonally think the the Catholic priests in the last dozen years or so have reated more of a scandal then tv preachers or Pentecostal preachers. It's not just the Priests themselves but a Catholic Church that secretly went out of their way to hide the facts from the public and allowed some of these men, and women nuns, to keep molesting children.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

////

[Daral]

Is this a joke? The only way the "biggest" scandals come from PC churches is if you ignore the ones that don't. Just a quick google search for "church scandals" reveals:

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/US/Catholic_Church_Abuse_Scandal/

(they have a whole section to cover it)

http://www.catholic.com/library/A_Crisis_of_Saints.asp
http://www.staycatholic.com/scandals_in_the_church.htm

Etc.

There isn't a single PC scandal in the entire top ten. It's almost exclusively Catholic scandal websites, both pro and anti.

Here's a good one from Greece:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1441811,00.html

But mostly I couldn't find anything besides Catholic scandal websites. In conclusion, this is a ridiculous post.

[Questioning Christian]

I'm sorry but for you to make such a claim I think you should prove what you're saying before you ask us why it is what you say it is.

I p[ersonally think the the Catholic priests in the last dozen years or so have reated more of a scandal then tv preachers or Pentecostal preachers. It's not just the Priests themselves but a Catholic Church that secretly went out of their way to hide the facts from the public and allowed some of these men, and women nuns, to keep molesting children.


You make a good point. I should have clarified that I am referring to Protestantism, and how it seems the biggest scandals seem to pop up with Charismatics. I was referring to tv preachers and big ministries, not necessarily ekklesia at-large.

[Questioning Christian]

I'm not really used to including Catholicism in discussions about the church, because what we mainly discuss here on Spirit-Filled basically only covers Protestant denominations, and in that vein I was writing what I wrote.

Certainly the Catholic scandal is tremendous, and we would be loathe to overlook it.

But again, for the sake of this discussion, and in context of Spirit-Filled, I again reiterate my focus being on non-Catholic ministries, as we are wont to mostly discuss on this non-Catholic forum. :wave:

[ECHELON]

"Scandal" and "Pentecostalism" have become synonymous.
Catholic Priests and Pedophiles have become more a specific synonym than Pentecostal scandals.


It would be kinda silly for me to start citing a bunch of things which are widely common knowledge.
What's even more silly is forsomeone to state their opinion like you have and expect all of us to automatically aggree that it is a fact. It's not, it's mearly your opinion. Especially when it seems like once a month you make a thread trying to make a small thing into some huge pentecostal scandal that everybody in the country is talking about. You know what? most people never heard of Paula White or the house give away deal that got her and her husband in trouble with some people.



Allright ... you want a list? ^_^

Um, for starters ...

Swaggart
This happend in the late 80, most, if not all, 25 year olds or younger haven't ever heard of Jimmy Swaggart. Most of them know about Preists liking the alter boys a little too much. Old news


Bakker
Even older news, most people 30 years old and younger have never even head his name, but most of them know about Preists and how the RCC tried to cover it all up. And Tammy Faye actually become a hero to many homosexuals and other of societies misfits.

W.V. Grant Jr
Robert Tilton
Clarence McClendon
Earl Paulk

Accouple of these names sort of sound familiar, otherwise I have never heard of these guys or what scandal they were supposed to be in. I however have heard of many Priests' not only playing hospitol with their alter boys but who also have gotten caught becoming alcoholics.



Oral Roberts [8 Million dollars, or God's gonna kill me]
Oral Roberts was never in any part of a scandal as far as I know of. And saying "God is going to kill me" is not a scandal, it may be a joke to some though.


Richard Roberts
Peter Popoff
Larry Lea
I know I have never heard of these guys ever.


Come on, now. The list grows every day, and more and more Charismatics will be exposed.
If I wanted to pull a list out of thin air I could do it too I suppose if I had to.

[Questioning Christian]

If this topic up-ends your false image of the sacred cows who occupy America's pulpits, there are hundreds of other topics which would be less discomforting to your sensibilities. Perhaps you should read those instead, if seeing the truth bothers you this much.

The crowd didn't like it when the little kid was yelling that the Emperor had no clothes either.

I find it frighteningly eye-opening, to the point of being absurd, how Pentecostals and Charismatics like to criticize everybody else to deflect true criticism of their own people. Their virulent objections only validate the points made by the original observer. You hit the nerve of truth, and the reflex is that the Pentecostals kick you.

[ECHELON]

I'm not really used to including Catholicism in discussions about the church, because what we mainly discuss here on Spirit-Filled basically only covers Protestant denominations, and in that vein I was writing what I wrote.

Certainly the Catholic scandal is tremendous, and we would be loathe to overlook it.

But again, for the sake of this discussion, and in context of Spirit-Filled, I again reiterate my focus being on non-Catholic ministries, as we are wont to mostly discuss on this non-Catholic forum. :wave:
Then you need to reword what you are saying. You don't want to claim that Pentecostals are involved in the biggest scandals, either don't say that or point out that you are only talking about the Protestant Church.

I don't know why you think you have to separate them from us though, Catholics are just as much christain as you or I and are apart of the Body of Christ just as much as you or I.

[Questioning Christian]

Then you need to reword what you are saying. You don't want to claim that Pentecostals are involved in the biggest scandals, either don't say that or point out that you are only talking about the Protestant Church.

I don't know why you think you have to sepperate them from us though, Catholics are just as much christain as you or I and are apart of the Body of Christ just as much as you or I.

This topic isn't about Catholics, so I don't even know why we're discussing them.

[spiritfilledjm]

I think the reason why we have a lot of scandals is because we make ourselves known the most. That and what other sect of Christianity preaches that you should have as much money as you can get and not to deprive yourself of luxuries? Another thing is that the government probes the most into the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement purely because we, in my opinion, get the most money to be honest.

[Questioning Christian]

Then you need to reword what you are saying. You don't want to claim that Pentecostals are involved in the biggest scandals, either don't say that or point out that you are only talking about the Protestant Church.

Ho, wait a minute...

<ding!!!!!!>
http://humanityquest.com/themes/inspiration/Comics/images_Microsoft/%20BeanManIdeaLight.gif


I think I actually DID clarify what I was saying with the post you took the time to use as a quote. :D

[ECHELON]

If this topic up-ends your false image of the sacred cows who occupy America's pulpits, there are hundreds of other topics which would be less discomforting to your sensibilities. Perhaps you should read those instead, if seeing the truth bothers you this much.

The crowd didn't like it when the little kid was yelling that the Emperor had no clothes either.

I find it frighteningly eye-opening, to the point of being absurd, how Pentecostals and Charismatics like to criticize everybody else to deflect true criticism of their own people. Their virulent objections only validate the points made by the original observer. You hit the nerve of truth, and the reflex is that the Pentecostals kick you.
Ha! LOL ^_^ you know, you're a real piece of work you know that...:D prophet and now Judge?

Whatever dude...

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

http://www.vogelforen.de/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

[importunity]

You better put Jesus up there too, I saw it on the Television and the world and some people who call themselves Christians and theologians are saying He had sexual relations with Mary Magdalene and then they are saying He had a child. Oh no what I am I going to do? Is their accusations going to cause me to stop believing the Word? Certainly not! That type of thinking is absolutely crazy. Just like these accusations, Satan is the accuser of the brethren. He is a liar and the truth is not in him. Lets say all these did as they are accused? Does that make the Word not true? Certainly not!!


Phil 1:15-18 says:
15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.


I’m saying nothing for or against the accused, I am saying for Christ and Him crucified.

Ok some of the ones you have mentioned, have probably sinned bad.
And so your sin is not just as bad? Are there levels of sin? Or is this just another attack against a group you don’t agree with? It doesn’t matter, because it is easily seen.

Now lets pick one. Well Jimmy Swaggart was at the top of your list lets look at him. Now I shouldn’t go back into his past like this because I don’t know if he has repented or where he is with God now. BUT lets look at him.
We know that he committed some sexual sins and admitted to them! Ok.

BUT he was AOG by the way to be politically correct, but that doesn’t matter either.
Do you know that his ministry was the largest missions giving ministry the AOG had?
Do you know multiple thousands are in the body of Christ today because of the message of the gospel he delivered?
Do you know he had a bible college that trained many successful ministers that are doing awesome exploits for the kingdom of God?
Do you know that Jesus paid the same price for him?
That’s just Swaggart and not even close to 10% of what he did for the good.

But for some reason there are Christians or those who call themselves Christians casting stones from a glass house, trying to justify and reason their accusations by natural human reasoning. In doing so giving themselves self satisfaction and not even considering it being a sin in and of itself.

So if I were to create a list I would look in the mirror first and start there.

[spiritfilledjm]

You better put Jesus up there too, I saw it on the Television and the world and some people who call themselves Christians and theologians are saying He had sexual relations with Mary Magdalene and then they are saying He had a child. Oh no what I am I going to do? Is their accusations going to cause me to stop believing the Word? Certainly not! That type of thinking is absolutely crazy. Just like these accusations, Satan is the accuser of the brethren. He is a liar and the truth is not in him. Lets say all these did as they are accused? Does that make the Word not true? Certainly not!!


Phil 1:15-18 says:
15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.


I’m saying nothing for or against the accused, I am saying for Christ and Him crucified.

Ok some of the ones you have mentioned, have probably sinned bad.
And so your sin is not just as bad? Are there levels of sin? Or is this just another attack against a group you don’t agree with? It doesn’t matter, because it is easily seen.

Now lets pick one. Well Jimmy Swaggart was at the top of your list lets look at him. Now I shouldn’t go back into his past like this because I don’t know if he has repented or where he is with God now. BUT lets look at him.
We know that he committed some sexual sins and admitted to them! Ok.

BUT he was AOG by the way to be politically correct, but that doesn’t matter either.
Do you know that his ministry was the largest missions giving ministry the AOG had?
Do you know multiple thousands are in the body of Christ today because of the message of the gospel he delivered?
Do you know he had a bible college that trained many successful ministers that are doing awesome exploits for the kingdom of God?
Do you know that Jesus paid the same price for him?
That’s just Swaggart and not even close to 10% of what he did for the good.

But for some reason there are Christians or those who call themselves Christians casting stones from a glass house, trying to justify and reason their accusations by natural human reasoning. In doing so giving themselves self satisfaction and not even considering it being a sin in and of itself.

So if I were to create a list I would look in the mirror first and start there.
AMEN!!!!!

[Balance]

and Amen!!

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

But Importunity, that only bes a valid analogy or retort when it comes to them whats FALSELY accused.

Them whats RIGHTFULLY exposed? Nope, sorry, doesn't fit. Them still gots 'splainin' to do.

[sacerdote]

I don't want cop-out answers like "well, they're defeating the kingdom of darkness, so Satan is after them". Look at Charles Stanley et al, and they are bashing in Satan's kingdom, but you don't see the big-scale scandals like you do with Charismatics.

Besides, there are PLENTY of people the devil is after [because they are destroying his kingdom] whom he finds NOTHING to expose about. That's because they chose to keep their pants up, their books clean, and their hearts right before God.

But for some reason, there seems to be an epidemic of sexual and financial wrongdoings in the Charismatic church.

I submit that we have allowed an atmosphere which winks at certain wrongs, while choosing to call fire down on others. It is a sad day when we don't view the TV preachers sins as "offending the little ones" but then on the other hand, we're quick to call out judgment on the little ones, using "touch not mine anointed" as a deflection from the rightful judgment of our favorite TV preacher.

Satan is doing enough damage when the preachers give occasion to the enemy to blaspheme; we don't need to compound it by falsely accusing people of "touching God's anointed".

The sin in a scandal is with the offender - not with the offender's critics.

Elijah needs to rise up in authority against Ahab and say...

"I am not the troublemaker; but it is YOU and your fathers who have troubled the house of Israel."

I don't know if your premise is true or not. Let's say it is as you suggest in your post. Why do you think the biggest scandals seem to involve charismatics? It would be interesting to see some proof and hear you elaborate.

[Questioning Christian]

:wave:

"Scandal" and "Pentecostalism" have become synonymous.

It would be kinda silly for me to start citing a bunch of things which are widely common knowledge. It would be like citing gravity statistics which state that the force pulls you toward the ground. All a person has to do is open their eyes and see that many of the big-time scandal accusations are laid at the door of Pentecostals and Charismatics.

Allright ... you want a list? ^_^

Um, for starters ...

Swaggart
Bakker
W.V. Grant Jr
Robert Tilton
Clarence McClendon
Earl Paulk
Oral Roberts [8 Million dollars, or God's gonna kill me]
Richard Roberts
Peter Popoff
Larry Lea

Come on, now. The list grows every day, and more and more Charismatics will be exposed.

[Questioning Christian]

Perhaps the lack of scandal from other denominations in comparison to Charismatics is the most telling evidence of all. You know when you hear of a scandal in the news, there's going to be a Pentecostal preacher's name attached to it.

It's a hard reality - unfortunately, for some people, this is too bitter a pill to swallow; the blue pill is too attractive an option.

[Svt4Him]

"Scandal" and "Pentecostalism" have become synonymous.

It would be kinda silly for me to start citing a bunch of things which are widely common knowledge. It would be like citing gravity statistics which state that the force pulls you toward the ground. All a person has to do is open their eyes and see that many of the big-time scandal accusations are laid at the door of Pentecostals and Charismatics.

Allright ... you want a list? ^_^

Um, for starters ...

Swaggart
Bakker
W.V. Grant Jr
Robert Tilton
Clarence McClendon
Earl Paulk
Oral Roberts [8 Million dollars, or God's gonna kill me]
Richard Roberts
Peter Popoff
Larry Lea

Come on, now. The list grows every day, and more and more Charismatics will be exposed.

Oh, you missed my point. I didn't say it doesn't happen, I just wonder why you say the greatest. Do you include people like Nazi Germany who had "God with us" engraved in German on the belts of Nazi soldiers? Are they Pentecostal as that seems to be a pretty great event? What about child abuse? Why do you include Peter Popoff and the likes who are, and I say this from personal experience, preaching Christ for gain, do you think it's only in the Pentecostal circle? Why exposed? Well, God will deal with His children first. I for one am happy I haven't been in the same situation, not proud they are exposed. It's nice to be self-righteous but honestly it's better to stay humble then it is to point and laugh and say 'it was our fathers who killed the prophets, not us' or things like that.

Sorry, sort of when down two different streams there. So again, when a school has to pay for abused children, in your world, it has to have a Pentecostal preacher's name? It wasn't, but that's probably not important.

[Katana]

It's because we are in an age of apostacy, and if corruption is more epidemic in charismatic churches, it is for simple reasons. Charlatans can more easily fool the gullible if they claim some supernatural power. I submit that the vast majority of our charistmatic/pentecostal leaders are... Frauds.

[jiminpa]

Almost all of the scandals you cited, except Jimmy Swaggart, were media created. 3/4 of those people did absolutely nothing wrong, and were only convicted by a Satanic, liberal, lying media. So the better question would be the one you intentionally excluded, "why is the lying, liberal media creating scandals against Charismatics and leaving the cessationists alone?"

Prominent among the cessionists is a man who literally stole the ministry he heads from the founder's widow at the funeral, (the same man is one of the biggest heresy hunters). No one investigates Robert Schuler, or John MacArthur, do you really think either one of them could stand under the same microscope charismatics are placed under? A microscope that creates flaws where non exist. You put too much faith in Satan, if you believe anything you see in the news.

[irenemcg]

It's because we are in an age of apostacy, and if corruption is more epidemic in charismatic churches, it is for simple reasons. Charlatans can more easily fool the gullible if they claim some supernatural power. I submit that the vast majority of our charistmatic/pentecostal leaders are... Frauds.

That's quite a statement to make, can you back it up????

Where does supernatural power come from?

Start reading the book of Acts. The Holy Spirit is the empowerer and all 'supernatural' power as you call it is God given.
Mat 12:31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
Mat 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

So my young friend I would be very careful what I attribute to satan, if it's of the Holy Spirit.


We only have to look at scripture to see how the anointed of God did at times fall. King Saul comes to mind here. God anointed David to take his place.

[catlover]

Almost all of the scandals you cited, except Jimmy Swaggart, were media created. 3/4 of those people did absolutely nothing wrong, and were only convicted by a Satanic, liberal, lying media. So the better question would be the one you intentionally excluded, "why is the lying, liberal media creating scandals against Charismatics and leaving the cessationists alone?"

Prominent among the cessionists is a man who literally stole the ministry he heads from the founder's widow at the funeral, (the same man is one of the biggest heresy hunters). No one investigates Robert Schuler, or John MacArthur, do you really think either one of them could stand under the same microscope charismatics are placed under? A microscope that creates flaws where non exist. You put too much faith in Satan, if you believe anything you see in the news.

So it was okay for Oral Roberts to ask for eight million dollars ?

[Jimbeaux]

QC, I wish I had a dollar for all the times I have been asked this question. I have developed a theory about this based on my 44 years of recurring scandals among my chosen group (as opposed to the almost none outside of it).

My theory goes like this: I think it is just easier to pull the wool over P/C eyes because P/C’s tend to be less skeptical of the unusual, even the paranormal, and, hence, unfortunately can be believing to the point of gullibility. P/C’s are also more wowed by the spectacular and the mystical and taken in by charismatic “wonder-working” personalities. So, P/C’s tend to be less skeptical of the incredulous, making it easier for a slight-of-hand artist (a fraud) to convince them with a few tricks and bloated press releases that he is uniquely “anointed” and, once that easy task is achieved, he immediately becomes untouchable and free from criticism in the eyes of his devotees. I mean, to criticize God’s “anointed” is tantamount to criticizing God Himself. Once he achieves that position, which is possible with enough funds to purchase air-time and a big enough mailing list to send those bloated press releases to, he can operate with impunity among his gullible followers who feel they are actually defending God when they defend (what they define as) God’s “specially anointed” preacher, making it possible for him to say and do almost anything with a barrier of easy-to-fleece followers to protect him from scrutiny.

His burr in the saddle are those in the ranks who do not fall for his scam and dare to criticize him—they immediately become the targets of criticism from those who, ironically, say we should not criticize and then tend to throw out critical labels themselves like calling those they perceive as opponents humanistic faith-destroyers, minimalists, and (my favorite) mere humanists. I mean, who are we to touch the Lord’s anointed?

~Jim

Famous Last Words:
“I wonder where the mother bear is?”

[Jimbeaux]

I'm sorry but for you to make such a claim I think you should prove what you're saying before you ask us why it is what you say it is.

I p[ersonally think the the Catholic priests in the last dozen years or so have reated more of a scandal then tv preachers or Pentecostal preachers. It's not just the Priests themselves but a Catholic Church that secretly went out of their way to hide the facts from the public and allowed some of these men, and women nuns, to keep molesting children.

And the RC Church has paid a huge price for this and Roman Catholics are among their biggest critics because it has brought shame on their church.

Unfortunately, P/C’s are shameless in their defense of fraud in their ranks.

And, where have you been all these years when we have had to watch big-name televangelist after televangelist paint our movement in the worst possible light in the eyes of the world as we are led from one financial slaughter to another.

It is no wonder the Lord called us “sheep.”

~Jim

Famous Last Words:
“I wonder where the mother bear is?”

[importunity]

But Importunity, that only bes a valid analogy or retort when it comes to them whats FALSELY accused.

Them whats RIGHTFULLY exposed? Nope, sorry, doesn't fit. Them still gots 'splainin' to do.
Phil 1:15-18 says:
15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing isthat in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.

[spiritfilledjm]

Jim, I think you're dead on. You should see the reaction that I've gotten from a few people when I would criticize some that they idolize. They would just grimace like they were trying to swallow what they know is a lie. Meh, whatever.

[Simon_Templar]

I don't want cop-out answers like "well, they're defeating the kingdom of darkness, so Satan is after them". Look at Charles Stanley et al, and they are bashing in Satan's kingdom, but you don't see the big-scale scandals like you do with Charismatics.

Besides, there are PLENTY of people the devil is after [because they are destroying his kingdom] whom he finds NOTHING to expose about. That's because they chose to keep their pants up, their books clean, and their hearts right before God.

But for some reason, there seems to be an epidemic of sexual and financial wrongdoings in the Charismatic church.

I submit that we have allowed an atmosphere which winks at certain wrongs, while choosing to call fire down on others. It is a sad day when we don't view the TV preachers sins as "offending the little ones" but then on the other hand, we're quick to call out judgment on the little ones, using "touch not mine anointed" as a deflection from the rightful judgment of our favorite TV preacher.

Satan is doing enough damage when the preachers give occasion to the enemy to blaspheme; we don't need to compound it by falsely accusing people of "touching God's anointed".

The sin in a scandal is with the offender - not with the offender's critics.

Elijah needs to rise up in authority against Ahab and say...

"I am not the troublemaker; but it is YOU and your fathers who have troubled the house of Israel."
my opinion is that there are two reasons for this.

#1 charismatic churches often tend to be 'personality cults'. I realize people won't like the term, but more than in most other churches, things tend to revolve around the charisma of the leader.
In charismatic circles, it is often times not a leader's maturity, or their sound understanding of doctrine or their ability to teach that attracts a following (as is the case with some of the large non-charismatic ministries), but rather their personal charisma. Their ability to wip up a crowd to high emotion, their ability to inspire feelings in a crowd.

Some might think this an unfair charge, but its what I've seen over the years. So, you get genuine people, who don't have the foundations the should elevated to a postion of leadership that they genuinely aren't spiritually prepared for, and aren't capable of discharging as they should be. You also get some pretenders who don't really have faith, but are just good at working a crowd.

Secondly, in non-charismatic ministries and most non-charismatic theology, people are taught to test themselves against scripture, and generally not to trust their own motivations and intents. So they expect sinful desires from themselves and are on guard against them.

Because of the nature of some charismatic teaching, many charismatics get to the place where they hold their own personal 'revelations' and spiritual 'feelings' as their truest guide. This leads to many many problems when combined with the fact that the human heart is deceitful and wicked.
Its only that much worse when you put a guy in leadership and constantly tell him how full of the annointing he is and his every word is a prophecy etc etc.

recipe for disaster.

[importunity]

Phil 1:15-18 says:
15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.

If the Holy Spirit is the one who inspired Paul to write this, and this is His stand then this is the stand of God.
Who are you and who am I that we can cast judgment on the individual?
With the same measure you use to judge the same measure will be used on you!!!!
Matt 7:1-2
7:1 "Do not judge , or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
NIV

MEASURE (NOUN AND VERB)
"a graduated rod or rule for measuring," figuratively, Matt 7:2; Mark 4:24;
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)

The one with mercy receives mercy--the one with no mercy receives no mercy.
The one who forgives is forgiven--the one who chooses not to forgive is not forgiven.

Mark 11:25-26
"And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses.
NKJV


This implies if there is not forgiveness on the part of the believer then there will be no forgiveness on the part of the Father. It sounds like the parable of the wicked servant. The master could not forgive him because he walked without forgiveness himself. Sounds like a lot of Christians.

You can always tell who knows God or not, it is the one who knows love. To know something you demonstrate what you know. Faith without works (corresponding action) is DEAD being ALONE!

Your child will demonstrate what they know. What they have been taught by you or whoever raised them.

Let me take a different spin on this, to give you a another type of example.

John 8:31-33
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
33 They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"

Were they tripping? Never been slaves to anyone?


First of all Abraham’s descendants have been slaves to everyone!
At that time Rome was the government to which they were enslaved to.


The funny thing I find is this:
People who are enslaved don’t see it.
OR
People who are being deceived don’t realize it.


They go on these missions thinking they are defending God, just like the Pharisees, but in reality they are deceived and have no clue.

[Simon_Templar]

Phil 1:15-18 says:
15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing isthat in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.
this is somewhat comparing apples to oranges. Paul is talking here about people who preach the gospel because of rivalry with Paul.. in other words their motivations for teaching are that they want to compete with Paul, to either put him down, or exalt themselves above him, or both.

It isn't applicable to people who are engagin in immorality that brings shame to the Church and the name of Christ. It also isn't applicable to people who are teaching false doctrines.

If some guy is preaching a true message, and is not shaming Christ by his life, but he is doing what he's doing from wrong motivations.. then this verse would be applicable.

I would offer this consideration, if a person preaches the gospel and they are reviled by the world for the gospel, then they are doing well. If, however, a person claims to be a Christian, and they are reviled by the world for greed and corruption, then they are in trouble.

Televangelists as a group, are controversial enough among Christians, but among the world the very word is practically synonymous with "charlatan", "greed", and "fraud".
Now as with all generalization there are people who get lumped in unfairly. Yet the fact remains that this generalization exists because enough people have proven it true that has become a byword among our society.

[Jimbeaux]

this is somewhat comparing apples to oranges. Paul is talking here about people who preach the gospel because of rivalry with Paul.. in other words their motivations for teaching are that they want to compete with Paul, to either put him down, or exalt themselves above him, or both.

It isn't applicable to people who are engagin in immorality that brings shame to the Church and the name of Christ. It also isn't applicable to people who are teaching false doctrines.

If some guy is preaching a true message, and is not shaming Christ by his life, but he is doing what he's doing from wrong motivations.. then this verse would be applicable.

I would offer this consideration, if a person preaches the gospel and they are reviled by the world for the gospel, then they are doing well. If, however, a person claims to be a Christian, and they are reviled by the world for greed and corruption, then they are in trouble.

Televangelists as a group, are controversial enough among Christians, but among the world the very word is practically synonymous with "charlatan", "greed", and "fraud".
Now as with all generalization there are people who get lumped in unfairly. Yet the fact remains that this generalization exists because enough people have proven it true that has become a byword among our society.

There you go again, Simon, employing good hermeneutics and interpreting scripture in context!! Dang!!

I wonder why, if we are going to interpret Phil. 1.15-18 to say we are not to condemn false teaching and fraudulent ministry, then wouldn’t it would be just as wrong to criticize a so-called “Heresy Hunter” on the same grounds—I mean, after all,”The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached.”

~Jim


Famous Last Words:
“I wonder where the mother bear is?”

[Simon_Templar]

we should learn a lesson from the Catholic Church scandal. Their scandal grew bigger and bigger because they tried to cover it. Whenever we try to defend, or cover sin in the house of God, it just grows bigger until it finally blows up in your face.

In reference to the Catholic Church, when I say that they tried to cover it up I refer to the fact that before the scandal became public, they knew about many of the cases of abuse and moved guilty parties around to different places, not bringing the issue to light and dealing with the offences.

The result of not dealing with the issue directly and with proper discipline is that Catholic priests have become a punch line to numerous jokes about sexual immorality.
Now, in addition to trying to do their normal work as a Church, they have to try and repair the damage done to their reputation and probably will have to work at it for a long time.

[importunity]

First of all do you know any of these who are being accused?

Are you getting your information from a worlds point of view?

If your view of a situation matches the worlds view of a situation, you don’t know the Fathers view.

The bottom line is we do have a way to handle it in the ranks of the church without siding with the world.

By gossip you spread nothing more than ungodly talk.
Gossip can be true on untrue.

The motive for this type of talk is to destroy character in an open forum. Anytime you are in the aid of destroying someone and their character you are in the aid of someone or thing other than God.

I have seen the Vineyard attacked, Calvary Chapel, AOG, WOF, and Pentecostals as a whole. It is nothing more than garbage, stirring up garbage, to give the enemy an advantage in the lives of those who are spreading garbage.

God is a God of reconciliation, He is not tearing apart the individual, because it is the goodness of God that leads men to repent.
T
hen you have men who are supposed to be leaders, pastors even who FLAME up these things because of their EGO and their insecurities.

These men cause more division than anything else. Men who are deceived and don’t even know it. Pharisees, hypocrites casting stones from a glass house. Operating out of a spirit unknown to God. A spirit of hate, of offense, of jealousy, of anger, of bitterness, of un-forgiveness, of everything that repulses the very God whom they claim to serve. These are the ones keeping the Church as a whole divided, trying to weaken the producing of the Gospel.

[HephzibahBenJudah]

Jhn 8:7 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=8&v=7&version=KJV#7) So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.


I can almost hear Jesus saying this to those who persecute the church today too...

[Simon_Templar]

First of all do you know any of these who are being accused?

Are you getting your information from a worlds point of view?

If your view of a situation matches the worlds view of a situation, you don’t know the Fathers view.

The bottom line is we do have a way to handle it in the ranks of the church without siding with the world.

By gossip you spread nothing more than ungodly talk.
Gossip can be true on untrue.

The motive for this type of talk is to destroy character in an open forum. Anytime you are in the aid of destroying someone and their character you are in the aid of someone or thing other than God.

I have seen the Vineyard attacked, Calvary Chapel, AOG, WOF, and Pentecostals as a whole. It is nothing more than garbage, stirring up garbage, to give the enemy an advantage in the lives of those who are spreading garbage.

God is a God of reconciliation, He is not tearing apart the individual, because it is the goodness of God that leads men to repent.
T
hen you have men who are supposed to be leaders, pastors even who FLAME up these things because of their EGO and their insecurities.

These men cause more division than anything else. Men who are deceived and don’t even know it. Pharisees, hypocrites casting stones from a glass house. Operating out of a spirit unknown to God. A spirit of hate, of offense, of jealousy, of anger, of bitterness, of un-forgiveness, of everything that repulses the very God whom they claim to serve. These are the ones keeping the Church as a whole divided, trying to weaken the producing of the Gospel.
The fact that I spoke about how the world views these groups doesn't mean I have a worldly view point at odds with the Father.

The point is that we are supposed to be witnesses TO THE WORLD. Its hard to do that when you have EARNED a reputation for fraud, greed, and corruption, among the world.
The world reviles the gospel, thats understood and accepted. However, when the world can revile Christians for being worse sinners than many people in the world are, its a problem that we need to address.

We should strive to give the world nothing evil to say about us. I seem to remember some guy in the new testament saying that if we are persecuted by the world and we have done no evil, then it speaks well of us, but if we are persecuted by the world BECAUSE we do evil, it speaks poorly of us.

I am reminded of Paul's words to Corinth regarding the man who was committing adultery with his father's wife. Paul was shocked and apalled that such sin was among them publically, but he was incredulous also at the fact that rather than being ashamed by it and condemning it, the church tolerated it and bragged despite it.

Obviously thats a different specific sin, but the principle holds true. There is behavior rampant among certain groups that shames the Church publically, and rather than confronting it, its practically a badge of honor among those groups.

[importunity]

Matt 7:1-2
7:1 "Do not judge , or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

I wonder what DO NOT means?
Maybe it means what it says?
I don’t know, I’ll have to ask someone who is more hermeneutical.

[importunity]

The fact of just plain old gossip says it all, about the relationship anyone has.

[Jimbeaux]

First of all do you know any of these who are being accused?


*****


Yes, I'm glad you asked--I used to sit on the advisory board of one of these 501c3 tax-exempt "evangelistic" associations and left over a matter of how funds were being raised. The televangelist I worked for is still on TV, fifteen years later, still up to his old scam and has recently been the subject of a scathing five-part investigative article in a major newspaper near where his offices are over, whatayaknow!, fundraising!!

~Jim


Famous Last Words:

“I wonder where the mother bear is?”

[jeolmstead]

If a scandal happens in a local church it’s not going to get much airplay beyond that community.

I do not think there is more or less scandal in the Charismatic/Pentecostal realm. To be on TV you have to be big just to pay the bills. When “Big” meets “Scandal” it makes the news.


John O.

[importunity]

1 adialect British : godparent (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/godparent) b: companion (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/companion), crony (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/crony) c: a person who habitually reveals personal or sensational facts about others2 a: rumor or report of an intimate nature b: a chatty talk c: the subject matter of gossip

[Simon_Templar]

Matt 7:1-2
7:1 "Do not judge , or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

I wonder what DO NOT means?
Maybe it means what it says?
I don’t know, I’ll have to ask someone who is more hermeneutical.

The bible does indeed say "judge not lest you be judged..."

It also says "judge righteous judgement"

But let me ask you this...

since you quoted this verse to me.. do you believe that it is wrong to tell someone that what they are doing is sin and it is wrong?

OR

Are you being deliberately dishonest in quoting this scripture to me, claiming it to mean something you yourself don't believe it means, because you want to win this conversation?

[HephzibahBenJudah]

Jhn 8:7 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=8&v=7&version=KJV#7) So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.


I can almost hear Jesus saying this to those who persecute the church today too...
There were many who brought this one woman to Jesus saying she was caught in the act of adultery...yet how did these men KNOW??? That is why Jesus said let him without sin cast the first stone.

The only one that has the right to judge us and didn't do it when He walked the earth was Jesus...so why do we gossip and backbite one another still?

Let those without sin cast the first stone!!!!!

[HephzibahBenJudah]

Pro 24:15 Do not lie in wait, O wicked man, against the dwelling of the righteous;
Do not plunder his resting place;
Pro 24:16 For a righteous man may fall seven times
And rise again,
But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

Pro 24:17 Do not rejoice when your enemy falls,
And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles;
Pro 24:18 Lest the LORD see it, and it displease Him,
And He turn away His wrath from him.

Pro 24:19 Do not fret because of evildoers,
Nor be envious of the wicked;
Pro 24:20 For there will be no prospect for the evil man;
The lamp of the wicked will be put out.

[importunity]

There were many who brought this one woman to Jesus saying she was caught in the act of adultery...yet how did these men KNOW??? That is why Jesus said let him without sin cast the first stone.

The only one that has the right to judge us and didn't do it when He walked the earth was Jesus...so why do we gossip and backbite one another still?

Let those without sin cast the first stone!!!!!

:clap: :amen: :clap: :amen: :clap:

[importunity]

Yes, I'm glad you asked--I used to sit on the advisory board of one of these 501c3 tax-exempt "evangelistic" associations and left over a matter of how funds were being raised. The televangelist I worked for is still on TV, fifteen years later, still up to his old scam and has recently been the subject of a scathing five-part investigative article in a major newspaper near where his offices are over, whatayaknow!, fundraising!!

~Jim


Famous Last Words:

“I wonder where the mother bear is?”






:wave:
Jim,
I am so sorry I sense some un-forgivenss, bitterness and the such. I just want to pray for you right now.

Father in the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth I lift up Jim to you, I pray for the love of God and the peace of God that passes all understanding rise up within Him. Father I thank you for calling him into the ministry, I lift his family and church before you to strengthen them with might in the inner man and to know the Love of God in all its fullness. I thank you for being a good God who loves and cares for His children. In Jesus Name AMEN!

Well, Love ya Jim. I hope, you have a great day!
Love in His service Rick.:)

[Jimbeaux]

:wave:
Jim,
I am so sorry I sense some un-forgivenss, bitterness and the such. I just want to pray for you right now.

Father in the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth I lift up Jim to you, I pray for the love of God and the peace of God that passes all understanding rise up within Him. Father I thank you for calling him into the ministry, I lift his family and church before you to strengthen them with might in the inner man and to know the Love of God in all its fullness. I thank you for being a good God who loves and cares for His children. In Jesus Name AMEN!

Well, Love ya Jim. I hope, you have a great day!
Love in His service Rick.:)


I know you would like to think this, importunity; it would sure make some in this forums task so much easier to paint me as an embittered, unforgiving person. But the truth is that I love this man. He was once my closest friend. I pray for him and hope that he will not continue down a road that will only lead to his eventual ruin. Of all the preachers/ministers I have ever heard, he has more natural giftings than any of them and I was his colleague and friend and sadly watched as he began to take the wrong roads that lead to what he is today. Despite my, and others, cautions he has chosen his road and all I/we can do is pray.

~Jim

Famous Last Words:
“I wonder where the mother bear is?”

[dkbwarrior]

If a scandal happens in a local church it’s not going to get much airplay beyond that community.

I do not think there is more or less scandal in the Charismatic/Pentecostal realm. To be on TV you have to be big just to pay the bills. When “Big” meets “Scandal” it makes the news.


John O.

This is a very good post. Reps to you...

In regards to the OP...

First, the number of Charismatic Ministries on TV has got to be 100-1 or more. We have virtually all of the air time. All of the largest Christian Networks are Charismatic, and whenever I turn on the TV and there is a preacher on, its almost always a Charismatic of one persuasion or another.

TV makes people famous, or infamous, depending on the circumstance, and fame breeds scandal when someone messes up.

Second, Charismatics are conservative (for the most part) theologically as well as politically. There is nothing juicier than hypocrisy. For instance, I can't count the number of stories about certain mainline denominations allowing openly gay ministers, and things of this nature. But these stories go away quick, because there is no hypocrisy in allowing sin when you claim it is not sin. But let Ted Haggard get caught on the gay issue, and we have a big scandal. (By the way, he wasn't even a chraismatic, just a conservative evangelical).

I don't think Charismatic ministers are more evil than other ministers, or commit more sin. You would have to give me some hard statistics to agree with that. I just think that for the above two reasons, Charismatic ministries are much more visible, and viewed as much more hypocritical, when they are caught with their pants down, so to speak.

Finally, not everything you mentioned in your list is scandal. No more so than God telling the prophet to lay naked on his side for half a year where everyone could see in in the OT. Disagreeing with ones doctrine, or what they say God told them may be scandal to the world, but it is not to me.

Peace...

[Peaceful Dove]

I'm sorry but for you to make such a claim I think you should prove what you're saying before you ask us why it is what you say it is.

I p[ersonally think the the Catholic priests in the last dozen years or so have reated more of a scandal then tv preachers or Pentecostal preachers. It's not just the Priests themselves but a Catholic Church that secretly went out of their way to hide the facts from the public and allowed some of these men, and women nuns, to keep molesting children.

I am glad you said this. Being a Catholic, I know at least one of the Priests you speak of.

He was a man I had met and liked a lot. He was a Leading Priest in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and an awesome Preacher, had wonderful Gifts and wrote many books. I know as a fact this guy was responsible to bringing many many folks to the Lord. Think of this, I only know a portion of them as he was a travelling Preacher and Preached all over the world.
Not many different than the non-Catholic Charismatics that were mentioned.

Well, as I have been able to find out, one young man accused this Priest of something awful. His Bishop had already paid out tons of money during the scandals in his Texas Diocese.
My friend, from what I have found out, didn't have anything but this one accusation against him. He was guilty without a trial. He had his ministry stopped and he was banished to (again, I have only heard this) to a Retreat house where he will live out whats left of his life. He is old and ill now.

I know about this one. How many more like this is there out there?

Once in a while, God shakes the tree really hard. Dead and deseased wood falls off. It is like the pruning He talks about in Scripture. What is left is good, productive wood. Maybe sometimes a few pieces of Good wood is pulled down with the bad.

[Peaceful Dove]

we should learn a lesson from the Catholic Church scandal. Their scandal grew bigger and bigger because they tried to cover it. Whenever we try to defend, or cover sin in the house of God, it just grows bigger until it finally blows up in your face.

In reference to the Catholic Church, when I say that they tried to cover it up I refer to the fact that before the scandal became public, they knew about many of the cases of abuse and moved guilty parties around to different places, not bringing the issue to light and dealing with the offences.

The result of not dealing with the issue directly and with proper discipline is that Catholic priests have become a punch line to numerous jokes about sexual immorality.
Now, in addition to trying to do their normal work as a Church, they have to try and repair the damage done to their reputation and probably will have to work at it for a long time.

Well to be perfectly honest, some of the Bishops did try to deal with the problem but handled it badly. Many even kept these things from their Superiors.
They tried to deal with individual Priests with Spiritual and Psychological counselling and even (I have read) put some of them on meds that acted like chemical castration. It was pathetic efforts since God cannot honor things that happen in darkness. That is my opinion.
The end result is Zero tolerance, today.

[Simon_Templar]

There were many who brought this one woman to Jesus saying she was caught in the act of adultery...yet how did these men KNOW??? That is why Jesus said let him without sin cast the first stone.

The only one that has the right to judge us and didn't do it when He walked the earth was Jesus...so why do we gossip and backbite one another still?

Let those without sin cast the first stone!!!!!
the refusal to address sin in the Church does nothing but guarentee that God must pour out judgement on said Church.

If you want to look at what the bible says about judging you will find that there are several contradictory statements, IF you take them to all apply to judging behavior to be sinful.

It says Judge not, lest you be judged. But it also says Judge rightly. Paul says I do not even judge myself, but he also says, if you would judge yourselves, God would not have to judge you.

It is a sad sad fact that the most popular, well known bible verse used to be "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son..." but in this generation it is "Judge not lest you be judged".

The fact is that everyone will be judged, this is indisputable in scripture. The issue spoken of in the passages about not judging people has to do with condemning people for sins that you yourself commit.

It has nothing to do with judging behavior to be sinful, or holding Leaders, or brothers, accountable for their public actions.

[jeolmstead]

the refusal to address sin in the Church does nothing but guarentee that God must pour out judgement on said Church.

If you want to look at what the bible says about judging you will find that there are several contradictory statements, IF you take them to all apply to judging behavior to be sinful.

It says Judge not, lest you be judged. But it also says Judge rightly. Paul says I do not even judge myself, but he also says, if you would judge yourselves, God would not have to judge you.

It is a sad sad fact that the most popular, well known bible verse used to be "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son..." but in this generation it is "Judge not lest you be judged".

The fact is that everyone will be judged, this is indisputable in scripture. The issue spoken of in the passages about not judging people has to do with condemning people for sins that you yourself commit.

It has nothing to do with judging behavior to be sinful, or holding Leaders, or brothers, accountable for their public actions.
Amen,

John O.

[HephzibahBenJudah]

Once in a while, God shakes the tree really hard. Dead and deseased wood falls off. It is like the pruning He talks about in Scripture. What is left is good, productive wood. Maybe sometimes a few pieces of Good wood is pulled down with the bad.

Psa 78:50 He made a path for His anger; He did not spare their soul from death, But gave their life over to the plague,
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast [them] down to hell and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
2Pe 2:5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, [one of] eight [people], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;


Zec 10:3 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Zec&c=10&v=3&version=NKJV#3)"My anger is kindled against the shepherds, And I will punish the goatherds. For the LORD of hosts will visit His flock, The house of Judah, And will make them as His royal horse in the battle.



Zec 14:20 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Zec&c=14&v=20&version=NKJV#20)In that day "HOLINESS TO THE LORD" shall be [engraved] on the bells of the horses. The pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

Judgement begins in the house of the Lord and if the righteous or scarcely saved what will happen to the world?

Hbr 12:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=12&verse=27&version=kjv#27)And this [word], Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

We have work to do still and if we're like the world then how will the world come to know Jesus as Savior and SOON COMING KING?

Jesus is coming for a bride without spot blemish or wrinkle.

[Tenebrae]

There were many who brought this one woman to Jesus saying she was caught in the act of adultery...yet how did these men KNOW??? That is why Jesus said let him without sin cast the first stone.

The only one that has the right to judge us and didn't do it when He walked the earth was Jesus...so why do we gossip and backbite one another still?

Let those without sin cast the first stone!!!!!
Sometimes that just a really good way of not taking action


No one wants to cast the first stone and in the mean time the person in question has abused three kids and is up before the IRD on tax fraud and up before the courts on criminal abuse charges.

[HephzibahBenJudah]

Zec 10:3 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Zec&c=10&v=3&version=NKJV#3)"My anger is kindled against the shepherds, And I will punish the goatherds. For the LORD of hosts will visit His flock, The house of Judah, And will make them as His royal horse in the battle.

Sometimes that just a really good way of not taking action

IMHO it's not our job to do it's HIS.

There is a way set forth in scripture to deal with these types of individuals...first go to him in private then if he won't hear... take 2-3 witnessess that everything be established then if this person still won't hear... he is to be taken before the local church he attends and dealt with in the spirit of love and grace...forums are no place to deal with individuals that do not attend our local assembly.

I find that forum threads here and other places like to spread gossip but can't actually deal with the issues because we aren't directly involved so we gossip.

The above outline is the way to deal with this type of situation and besides that there is no other way.

If someone here is directly involved then follow the guidelines above; otherwise pray and let God be God and stop threads like this that only serve to demean or underline the entire body of Christ.

Amen!

[Tenebrae]

Zec 10:3 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Zec&c=10&v=3&version=NKJV#3)"My anger is kindled against the shepherds, And I will punish the goatherds. For the LORD of hosts will visit His flock, The house of Judah, And will make them as His royal horse in the battle.



IMHO it's not our job to do it's HIS.
So we are to sit by and watch as people are being abused?

[HephzibahBenJudah]

Zec 10:3 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Zec&c=10&v=3&version=NKJV#3)"My anger is kindled against the shepherds, And I will punish the goatherds. For the LORD of hosts will visit His flock, The house of Judah, And will make them as His royal horse in the battle.



IMHO it's not our job to do it's HIS.

There is a way set forth in scripture to deal with these types of individuals...first go to him in private then if he won't hear... take 2-3 witnessess that everything be established then if this person still won't hear... he is to be taken before the local church he attends and dealt with in the spirit of love and grace...forums are no place to deal with individuals that do not attend our local assembly.

I find that forum threads here and other places like to spread gossip but can't actually deal with the issues because we aren't directly involved so we gossip.

The above outline is the way to deal with this type of situation and besides that there is no other way.

If someone here is directly involved then follow the guidelines above; otherwise pray and let God be God and stop threads like this that only serve to demean or underline the entire body of Christ.

Amen!
nope read this again.

[New_Wineskin]

I don't want cop-out answers like "well, they're defeating the kingdom of darkness, so Satan is after them". Look at Charles Stanley et al, and they are bashing in Satan's kingdom, but you don't see the big-scale scandals like you do with Charismatics.


Before answering about P/C clubs , the Catholic club has the biggest scandal - they are simply remaining quiet so they won't have to do anything about it .

With the PC's , my experience is that they more openingly declare their doctrines that place their leaders in positions of kings over the groups . They also place more fear with respect to leaving the group or being kicked out . The leaders are more controlling - the people more brain-washed .

[Jimbeaux]

Since I am not a Catholic, I will let them solve there own problems but since I am identified as a Charismatic I am naturally more concerned about what goes own in our own house. In the eyes of the world we are the trailer trash who ignores the garbage in our own front yard because, hey, at least it isn’t as bad as the trash in the big yard down the street. In this neighborhood I am/we are only responsible for the condition of our yard, not our neighbors, and just comparing yards solves nothing.

What we need to do is clean up the trash, starve ‘em out, turn our TV’s off, stop the “evangelistic” junk mail with the ubiquitous self-addressed envelopes, and get our noses back in the Bible and our butts back on the pews.

Until we do that it looks like we are going to have to endure one scandal after another.

~Jim

Famous Last Words:
“Pull the pin and count to what?”

[dkbwarrior]

Sometimes that just a really good way of not taking action


No one wants to cast the first stone and in the mean time the person in question has abused three kids and is up before the IRD on tax fraud and up before the courts on criminal abuse charges.

I would be willing to cast the first stone, so to speak, in a case like you describe.

I think one of the problems here is that we have two groups of people talking about this from two different angles.

One group that has experienced abuse, know someone that has experienced abuse, or ministered to those who have experienced abuse at the hands of church authorities. In such cases, it is our imperative to support and protect the victims and investigate their charges. And if that involves what some might call throwing stones, then so be it.

The other group is just plain cynical, does not trust televangelists, and will quickly jump on any bandwagon that appears to be providing information that one of them has missappropriated funds, or drives an expensive car, etc., etc. This group is not a group of victims, do not deserve our support or protection, and are in fact aiding the enemy, so to speak.

Peace...

[Jimbeaux]

*****

The other group is just plain cynical, does not trust televangelists, and will quickly jump on any bandwagon that appears to be providing information that one of them has missappropriated funds, or drives an expensive car, etc., etc. This group is not a group of victims, do not deserve our support or protection, and are in fact aiding the enemy, so to speak.

Peace...

Well, this sounds pretty "cynical" to me, DK. How exactly do you know if “they” are cynical or whether they are on-the-mark, DK, without first “judging” them yourself? It is then hypocritical, IMO, to accuse them of “judging” or being “cynical” when that is exactly what you are doing? Why is what you do right and what they do wrong when it comes from the same spirit?

Why is it right for you to do this and wrong for them?

~Jim

Famous Last Words:
“Pull the pin and count to what?”

[dkbwarrior]

Well, this sounds pretty "cynical" to me, DK. How exactly do you know if “they” are cynical or whether they are on-the-mark, DK, without first “judging” them yourself? It is then hypocritical, IMO, to accuse them of “judging” or being “cynical” when that is exactly what you are doing? Why is what you do right and what they do wrong when it comes from the same spirit?

Why is it right for you to do this and wrong for them?


You would be right, of course, if I was giving a list of names, and publicly proclaiming these persons to be in this group. But I'm not making that kind of a public declaration about any named individuals.

I do make private judgements about persons motives all of the time, even when I don't really intend to, its just human nature I guess. And of course, we have to judge for ourselves where to give money or other support in regards to ministries.

But public judgement of individuals because we disagree with doctrine or someones fundraising techniques or the value of their vehicle(s) is not righteous judgement, IMHO. It is simply gossip. It doesn't free anyone, or lift anyones burdens, it only condems. You can tell a tree by its fruit...

I wonder how many people have been set free from demonic oppression or drugs or pornography reading the Benny bashing threads, (and I don't even listen to Benny), or others? I would venture to say none. It is nothing but gossip...

Peace...

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

are not all these debates simply caused by attempting to apply one set of rules to oneself while applying another set of rules to others -- or attempting to apply one set of rules to oneself and one's "us" while applying another set of rules to someone singled out as part of one's "them"?

and do they not proliferate even worse when we start pointing fingers claiming that bes what others bes doing whilst we ourselves be doing that ourselves?

food for thought.....

[Peaceful Dove]

Since I am not a Catholic, I will let them solve there own problems but since I am identified as a Charismatic I am naturally more concerned about what goes own in our own house. In the eyes of the world we are the trailer trash who ignores the garbage in our own front yard because, hey, at least it isn’t as bad as the trash in the big yard down the street. In this neighborhood I am/we are only responsible for the condition of our yard, not our neighbors, and just comparing yards solves nothing.

What we need to do is clean up the trash, starve ‘em out, turn our TV’s off, stop the “evangelistic” junk mail with the ubiquitous self-addressed envelopes, and get our noses back in the Bible and our butts back on the pews.

Until we do that it looks like we are going to have to endure one scandal after another.

~Jim


Famous Last Words:
“Pull the pin and count to what?”





Thank you.
As I said, we are almost at a place of zero tolerance.
However, rest assured that the Catholic Church is in prayer about scandals and the evils of sin and we are in Prayer for the ENTIRE BODY OF CHRIST.

Why are we suprised when we see sin in our churches. Isn't the church a hospital for sinners and not a sactuary for SAINTS (big S)? Aren't we in Spiritual warfare, every day of our lives? Churches are simply made of of folks like us.

[Jimbeaux]

You would be right, of course, if I was giving a list of names, and publicly proclaiming these persons to be in this group. But I'm not making that kind of a public declaration about any named individuals.

I do make private judgements about persons motives all of the time, even when I don't really intend to, its just human nature I guess. And of course, we have to judge for ourselves where to give money or other support in regards to ministries.

But public judgement of individuals because we disagree with doctrine or someones fundraising techniques or the value of their vehicle(s) is not righteous judgement, IMHO. It is simply gossip. It doesn't free anyone, or lift anyones burdens, it only condems. You can tell a tree by its fruit...

I wonder how many people have been set free from demonic oppression or drugs or pornography reading the Benny bashing threads, (and I don't even listen to Benny), or others? I would venture to say none. It is nothing but gossip...

Peace...

The Apostles named names (1 Tim. 1.20; 2 Tim. 2.17; 3 John 1.9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Tim%201.20;%202%20Tim.%202.17;%203%20John%201.9;&version=50;)). Were they heresy hunters?

But I do agree with you that naming names without offering proof, like for example two or three witnesses (not just accusers), is sleazy.

~Jim

Famous Last Words:
“Pull the pin and count to what?”

[kooolfriend]

Since I am not a Catholic, I will let them solve there own problems but since I am identified as a Charismatic I am naturally more concerned about what goes own in our own house. In the eyes of the world we are the trailer trash who ignores the garbage in our own front yard because, hey, at least it isn’t as bad as the trash in the big yard down the street. In this neighborhood I am/we are only responsible for the condition of our yard, not our neighbors, and just comparing yards solves nothing.

What we need to do is clean up the trash, starve ‘em out, turn our TV’s off, stop the “evangelistic” junk mail with the ubiquitous self-addressed envelopes, and get our noses back in the Bible and our butts back on the pews.

Until we do that it looks like we are going to have to endure one scandal after another.

~Jim


Famous Last Words:

“Pull the pin and count to what?”






and also throw all the alduterous pastors out of the pulpit, never let them pastor again...
and do you think by so doing it will stop the scandals?:doh:

[Jimbeaux]

and also throw all the alduterous pastors out of the pulpit, never let them pastor again...
and do you think by so doing it will stop the scandals?:doh:

Adulterous pastors must be disciplined. By turning our head, ignoring the sin and not “judging” them we could never help them repent and be restored; many would likely continue trapped in their own sinfulness.

~Jim

Famous Last Words:
“Pull the pin and count to what?”

[Questioning Christian]

I get the sense from this topic that some people have loyalties deeper to Pentecostal / Charismatic circles than they do to truth.

And before you go and say I have "judged you", consider that you may possibly have judged me for my asking a hard question you simply don't like.

I explained earlier that this forum is not about Catholics. We're Protestant, and as we are accustomed to referring to Protestants as "the church", my question has lots of validity, and I therefore wrote the question in such a context. We need to clean up our own mess.

For too long, we've come on this forum, and we've had all these topics, and we've gone to our Spirit-Filled churches, and things have just gone along the same, and there have been more and more scandals, which have grown like a metastasized cancer.

But year after year, decade after decade, on and on, nothing has changed. The truth is that the Pentecostal Church has REFUSED to change. This is the answer to my question, plain and simple.

1. We have a scandal.
2. We get upset and pray and repent.
3. We go back to normal, after a while.
4. We begin to go downhill again.

Then ...

1. We have a scandal.
2. We get upset and pray and repent.
3. We go back to normal, after a while.
4. We begin to go downhill again.

Same song, second verse!!!!!!!

How long are we going to go on like this???

How long will we let these people keep trashing our Spirit-Filled experience by their sexual misconduct and financial misdeeds???

Oh yeah, sure, the names I mentioned, none of them were guilty. Yeah right. Next you'll be telling me that Aimee Semple McPherson didn't take barbiturates, fake her own disappearance and death, and live a morally loose lifestyle. Then you'll be telling me that Kathryn Kuhlman didn't run around with a married man, even after she found out he was married.

That's the very reason we have not changed. People do like the ostriches, and just stick their heads in the sand, hoping it will all just <poof> vanish and go away. But it doesn't go away. It just keeps on and on and on.

And it will keep on and on and on until we take it to prayer before God, and until our leadership does the same with definite action.

The lax, loose moral standards which have plagued us are the very reason for our downfall.

Until we wake up and recognize this fact, we'll just keep on falling.

[kooolfriend]

Scandals, read the bible, it is full of it...
Just to name a few: Abraham lied about his wife, David did adulterous act...
By experience one thing i noticed, is when there is scandal in the house, it never go back to normal, and sins are not ignored nor covered,it is judged rather more severely than we will judge a non-christian, and I think it is legitimate, as much had been given, more is required.
What we need to know is that men & women will fail, but God's word shall never fail...
We must not rejoice at the fall of an adulterous pastor, or greedy pastor, but rather mourn for them and pray that they shall repent, but most important pray for their flock, for the wounds that it will cause especially the young in faith, those whose foundation in God's word is not solid, these are the one who are most vulnerable to Satan attacks...

[Balance]

I don't want cop-out answers like "well, they're defeating the kingdom of darkness, so Satan is after them". Look at Charles Stanley et al, and they are bashing in Satan's kingdom, but you don't see the big-scale scandals like you do with Charismatics.


So, your asking "How come the biggest scandals come from Pent/Char Leaders" - but you don't want to consider Catholics or any other groups outside of Pentecostal/Charismatic leaders -

The answer would then be -

The biggest scandals are from Charismatic/Pentecostal leaders because that is the only group you are willing to look at.

If you looked at the Christian Religion as a whole you would find a different answer.

Baptist Minister killing their wives - Baptist ministers wives killing their husband.

Every denomination has problems. But hey, that isn't as provocative - is it?

[Balance]

As for Charles Stanley - don't look too close - he's been sued a min of four times from what I've seen.

Just Google news pastor arrested and you'll see what I mean

FLATBUSH PASTOR ARRESTED.; The Rev. Christopher S. Williams Is ... (http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0B13FE3E5F11738DDDA10A94D0405B8885F0D3)
New York Times - Aug 28, 1898
The Rev. Christopher S. Williams, pastor of the Fenimore Street Methodist Church, Flatbush, was arrested yesterday charged with having flourished a revolver ...
REV. MR. WILLIAMS DISCHARGED; Pastor Who Threatene... (http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F40B15FA345911738DDDA80B94D0405B8885F0D3) - New York Times
All 3 related (http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=pastor+arrested&sa=N&cid=8152874424991798) - Related stories (http://news.google.com/archivesearch?&scoring=t&q=street+son+revolver+rev+williams+raynor&as_ldate=1898&as_hdate=1898&sugg=d) - Related web pages (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=N&q=1898+street+son+revolver+rev+williams+raynor)

PASTOR ARRESTED IN ESPIONAGE CASE; Bail for Philadelphian Is Set ... (http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F00B11FB3D5A147B93C0A8178DD85F468485F9)
$3.95 - New York Times - Jun 12, 1942
The Rev. Kurt E. B. Molzahn, pastor of Old Zion Lutheran Church and one of five men indicted by a Federal grand jury at Hartford yesterday on a charge of ...
All 3 related (http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=pastor+arrested&sa=N&cid=8341522273534074) - Related stories (http://news.google.com/archivesearch?&scoring=t&q=rev+molzahn+hartford+church+zion+pastor&as_ldate=1942&as_hdate=1942&sugg=d) - Related web pages (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=N&q=1942+rev+molzahn+hartford+church+zion+pastor)

U.S. PASTOR'S ARREST STILL ROME MYSTERY; Americans to Mark ... (http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA091FF63D5E17738DDDA90A94D9415B8188F1D3)
$3.95 - New York Times - Nov 20, 1941
The American colony of Rome will have its Thanksgiving service tomorrow morning even though the Italian authorities have arrested the only American ...
ITALIANS ARREST AMERICAN RECTOR; Only U.S.... (http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F00C10FF345B147B93CBA8178AD95F458485F9) - New York Times ($3.95)
All 6 related (http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=pastor+arrested&sa=N&cid=8337918795972635) - Related stories (http://news.google.com/archivesearch?&scoring=t&q=american+church+rome+arrested+italy+thanksgiving&as_ldate=1941&as_hdate=1941&sugg=d) - Related web pages (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=N&q=1941+american+church+rome+arrested+italy+thanksgiving)

185 gay-rights demonstrators jailed Denver pastor arrested at... (http://docs.newsbank.com/g/GooglePM/DP/lib00152,0EAF45741494DBB1.html)
$1.95 - Denver Post - NewsBank - May 11, 2000
CLEVELAND - More than 185 gay- rights demonstrators, including a United Methodist bishop and a Denver minister, were arrested outside the Cleveland ...
All 40 related (http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=pastor+arrested&sa=N&cid=8590492937748507) - Related stories (http://news.google.com/archivesearch?&scoring=t&q=church+methodist+conference+united+gay+general&as_ldate=2000&as_hdate=2000&sugg=d) - Related web pages (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=N&q=2000+church+methodist+conference+united+gay+general)

Anaheim Pastor Arrested in Alleged Molestations (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/987572251.html?dids=987572251:987572251&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Feb+16%2C+2006&author=Mai+Tran&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&desc=Anaheim+Pastor+Arrested+in+Alleged+Molestations&pqatl=google)
Pay-Per-View - Los Angeles Times - ProQuest Archiver - Feb 16, 2006
[ORANGE COUNTY EDITION]. The pastor of an Anaheim church has been arrested on suspicion of molesting three boys and a girl -- all congregants whom he met ...
Anaheim Pastor Arrested On Suspicion Of Molesting... (http://www.nbc4.tv/news/7086082/detail.html) - NBC4.TV
All 4 related (http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=pastor+arrested&sa=N&cid=8615901964277153) - Related stories (http://news.google.com/archivesearch?&scoring=t&q=amormino+pastor+anaheim+county+department+hernandez&as_ldate=2006&as_hdate=2006&sugg=d) - Related web pages (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=N&q=2006+amormino+pastor+anaheim+county+department+hernandez)

A PASTOR ARRESTED.; THE METHODISTS OF TORONTO GREATLY EXCITED. (http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F10D16F83F5E15738DDDAC0994DE405B8884F0D3)
New York Times - Jun 15, 1888
Methodist circles are very much excited here over the arrest of ono of their prominent Pastors, the Rev. W.F. Wilson, on a charge of disorderly conduct. ...
All 2 related (http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=pastor+arrested&sa=N&cid=8109594039550009) - Related stories (http://news.google.com/archivesearch?&scoring=t&q=tlio+tho+rev+pastor&as_ldate=1888&as_hdate=1888&sugg=d) - Related web pages (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=N&q=1888+tlio+tho+rev+pastor)

PASTOR ARRESTED IN ROW; Head of Russian Church at Elizabeth Held ... (http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70617F9395C11738DDDA80994D0405B808FF1D3)
$3.95 - New York Times - Aug 11, 1930
ELIZABETH, N. J., Aug. 10.-The Rev. Michael Kaimaken, who has been the subject of a controversy between two factions in St. Nicholas's Russian Orthodox ...
Related web pages (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=N&q=1930+PASTOR+ARRESTED+IN+ROW+Head+of+Russian+Church)

A YOUNG PASTOR ARRESTED.; ON A CHARGE OF BREACH OF PROMISE OF ... (http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F10D15FE3F5413738DDDAD0894DF405B8784F0D3)
New York Times - Jul 4, 1887
The Rev. Peter Roberts, Pastor of the Plymouth Congregational Church, of this city, was arrested last night at the instance, of Miss Anne Husaboe on the ...
Related web pages (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=N&q=1887+YOUNG+PASTOR+ARRESTED+ON+CHARGE+OF+BREACH+OF)

PASTOR ARRESTED IN CHURCH.; Deacons Wouldn't Permit Old Preacher... (http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20711F63F5512738DDDA10A94D0405B858CF1D3)
New York Times - Aug 28, 1905
The Rev. R.W. Field, former pastor of the First Baptist Church, was arrested in that church this morning on the charge of creating a disturbance. ...
Related web pages (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=N&q=1905+PASTOR+ARRESTED+IN+CHURCH+Deacons+Wouldn+39+Permit)

DENSEL OUT ON BAIL.; Passaic Pastor Arrested on Charge of ... (http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0613FE3E5810738DDDA00894D9405B818EF1D3)
New York Times - Jan 9, 1921
P:ISS.~I(:, ~;. J., Tan. 8.-The Rev. Cornelius w2s arrested at his home today charged with violation of the Wann act and taken before United States ...
Related web pages (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=N&q=1921+DENSEL+OUT+ON+BAIL+Passaic+Pastor+Arrested+on)

[New_Wineskin]

Since I am not a Catholic, I will let them solve there own problems but since I am identified as a Charismatic I am naturally more concerned about what goes own in our own house.


Groups that are not your own are no more your house than the Catholic group . They themselves claim to have the largest number of Charasmatics . Either way , you have no authority to correct the goings on in any straight-forward P/C club than the Catholics . That is the whole idea of denominationalism . That is why you are in your own group - nobody can tell you what to do .



In the eyes of the world we are the trailer trash who ignores the garbage in our own front yard because, hey, at least it isn’t as bad as the trash in the big yard down the street. In this neighborhood I am/we are only responsible for the condition of our yard, not our neighbors, and just comparing yards solves nothing.


All of the yards have trash . Even if you clean up your own club , you can't touch any of the other clubs . Even if a few groups have some sort of "accountability" to eah other , that accountability is only allowed until one group attempts to hold one of the others accountable . They will then break out of the acountability circle . Clubs are seperate for a reason - so that none else can tell them what to do .



What we need to do is clean up the trash, starve ‘em out, turn our TV’s off, stop the “evangelistic” junk mail with the ubiquitous self-addressed envelopes, and get our noses back in the Bible and our butts back on the pews.

Until we do that it looks like we are going to have to endure one scandal after another.


Noses in the "bible" and butts in pews to listen to a grand poohbah are why these scandals come about . Placing one human oer another isn't the answer - it is the cause .

[ECHELON]

So, your asking "How come the biggest scandals come from Pent/Char Leaders" - but you don't want to consider Catholics or any other groups outside of Pentecostal/Charismatic leaders -

The answer would then be -

The biggest scandals are from Charismatic/Pentecostal leaders because that is the only group you are willing to look at.

If you looked at the Christian Religion as a whole you would find a different answer.

Baptist Minister killing their wives - Baptist ministers wives killing their husband.

Every denomination has problems. But hey, that isn't as provocative - is it?

:doh: Exactly :thumbsup:

[knownbeforetime]

I explained earlier that this forum is not about Catholics. We're Protestant, and as we are accustomed to referring to Protestants as "the church", my question has lots of validity, and I therefore wrote the question in such a context. We need to clean up our own mess.This right here is making me :sick:... First of all, you assume that we all think of "the church" in the same way. That is bigoted in and of itself. Secondly, God's definition of the "the church" is every single believer that has ever existed, from Adam to you; RCC, protestant, or other. And that's the definition I use.

The Protestant church is a narrow lens to see through. First of all, it's only been around for 500 years. You're leaving out 5500 years of believers! Secondly, it's mainly European and American. Only about a quarter of the world's 2 billion Christians are "protestant".

You only want to focus on 500 million out of 2 billion to make your case look stronger. I don't know much about formal logic but there has to be a fallacy out there somewhere about redefining words to make your argument stronger....

[Simon_Templar]

The following is my opinion, and I fully admit that it is, so take it for whatever you think its worth.

I think that right now God is trying to send a message to the charismatic Church because we as a whole have totally lost focus on the true gospel. We lost our committment to the truth and have begun to define everything in terms of our own judgement and decisions

There is shaking going on because God is trying to get people's attention, but so far we have been determined not to hear anything that challenges the facade we've built up in place of the gospel.

We have tried to make God agree with us, rather than submitting ourselves to agree with God, and He will have none of it.

I expect that as things continue to shake, most will refuse to see it for what it is, because they are more devoted to self than to God. The end result will be greater deception, and more judgement.

The most terrible judgement is the final one, when God stops trying to rouse you from your error and lets you go your own way in silence.

[Peaceful Dove]

Why don't we just get together and pray for the entire Body of Christ.

That is why we are the Body!!!!

Don't you think?

[habeas]

Matt 7:1-2
7:1 "Do not judge , or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

I wonder what DO NOT means?
Maybe it means what it says?
I don’t know, I’ll have to ask someone who is more hermeneutical.


1 adialect British : godparent (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/godparent) b: companion (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/companion), crony (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/crony) c: a person who habitually reveals personal or sensational facts about others2 a: rumor or report of an intimate nature b: a chatty talk c: the subject matter of gossip


Are you judging someone of being a gossip, of being one who hapitually reveals personal or sensational facts about others? :confused:

[Tenebrae]

Why don't we just get together and pray for the entire Body of Christ.

That is why we are the Body!!!!

Don't you think?
This bears repeating

[Questioning Christian]

Oh, now this is an "us versus them" issue?

The only point I was making is that here in the Spirit-Filled forum, when we speak of the church, we're referring to Protestant denominations.

Do you see "Catholics aren't Christians" in there?

No way.

How is it you hear what I'm not saying here?

In the Protestant church, the biggest scandals are in the Pentecostal/Charismatic church. You are making an issue where there is not one.

I
am
not
referring
to
the
Catholics ...

this
topic
is
about
Protestant
churches ...

if
you
wish
to
go
on
making
an
issue
about
catholics
where
there
is
no
issue,
go
right
ahead.

The point is that some people in this topic cannot focus on the topic at hand, so they try to change the subject to hijack the thread to spin it the way they want to.

This topic is about Pentecostal and Charismatic scandals.

Because you cannot stay on point, I am a bigoted person.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ... Okay

That makes more logical sense than anything I've read in a great while. :doh:

This right here is making me :sick:... First of all, you assume that we all think of "the church" in the same way. That is bigoted in and of itself. Secondly, God's definition of the "the church" is every single believer that has ever existed, from Adam to you; RCC, protestant, or other. And that's the definition I use.

The Protestant church is a narrow lens to see through. First of all, it's only been around for 500 years. You're leaving out 5500 years of believers! Secondly, it's mainly European and American. Only about a quarter of the world's 2 billion Christians are "protestant".

You only want to focus on 500 million out of 2 billion to make your case look stronger. I don't know much about formal logic but there has to be a fallacy out there somewhere about redefining words to make your argument stronger....

[Questioning Christian]

Attention everyone in this thread:

This topic is about Pentecostal / Charismatic scandals ...

somehow that seems to have escaped the collective CF brain ...

[icedtea]

Since I just found this thread, can anyone tell me How many scandals have there been, exactly?
Why is it more than Baptist scandals? I don't know. I'm willing to listen to theories, however.

[habeas]

Some others:

Juanita Bynum

Thomas Weeks III

Oral Roberts University - there was a recent scandal which I have not followed too closely, instigated by some disgruntled employees.

TBN Paul Crouch

Ted Haggard


By the way, it was a HUGE SCANDAL that Charles Stanley was separated and then divorced, as I understand. :swoon:

I think we prop them up and create idols out of some of the televangelists and megachurch pastors...they in turn lose their way and feel a sense of entitlement, allow it, and God is well, a jealous God.

The sexual immorality and the gay sex scandals, however, too, result from this idolization and consequently, all too available temptation. Other than that, I don't really understand why we have so many scandals, but I know they occur all the time in the smaller churches of all denominations also.

[knownbeforetime]

I don't understand....... The point indeed has escaped me. Why the focus on Protestantism (post 8 clarifies that) when there are equal and greater scandals in non-protestant churches (post 5)?

It's been done before in this thread but I google'd "church scandal" 7 of the 10 were about the RCC. One had to JW's, and one about Ted Haggard. The other was a general article about immorality in the church.

And I do not agree with Jim about looking after our own yard and not worrying about the neighbors. We all have the same yard with different sections. The RCC section is just as dirty and the Protestant section. So, I suggest we take Peaceful Dove's advice and pray for the entire body.

[nephilimiyr]

Why don't we just get together and pray for the entire Body of Christ.

That is why we are the Body!!!!

Don't you think?

Why yes! But if we are the body?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4wojcSO9Ww

Why aren't His arms reaching? Why aren't His hands healing? Why aren't His words teaching?

Why aren't His feet going? Why is His love not showing them there is a way?

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

*bites tongue til it bleeds on cynical yet truthful reply to that*

[catlover]

Are you judging someone of being a gossip, of being one who hapitually reveals personal or sensational facts about others? :confused:

I would hope the majority of Pentecostals will take that into account on other sins...

[dkbwarrior]

When you first started this thread I didn't fully accept that there were more scandals in PC circles than not, but as I had only really heard of PC scandals in the news, I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

But after reading through this thread, and doing a couple of Google searches, it appears that there are far more scandals going on outside of PC circles than within them.

But this brings up another question. If there are more scandals going on outside of PC circles, how come I have never heard of them? I had never heard that Charles Stanley had separated and been divorced. Or any of the other scandals that a Google search will reveal, except for Ted Haggard of course. I watch the national news regularly, how come I hadn't heard of these, yet I have heard of nearly all of the PC scandals?

I think you should amend the question to be this:

How come the national media reports on PC scandals, more than other Protestant scandals, when they appear to be less in number?

I think that this would be a more appropriate and accurate question.

Peace...

[HephzibahBenJudah]

Originally Posted by HephzibahBenJudah
Jhn 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

I can almost hear Jesus saying this to those who persecute the church today too...
There were many who brought this one woman to Jesus saying she was caught in the act of adultery...yet how did these men KNOW??? That is why Jesus said let him without sin cast the first stone.
The only one that has the right to judge us and didn't do it when He walked the earth was Jesus...so why do we gossip and backbite one another still?
Let those without sin cast the first stone!!!!!
Pro 24:15 Do not lie in wait, O wicked man, against the dwelling of the righteous;
Do not plunder his resting place;
Pro 24:16 For a righteous man may fall seven times
And rise again,
But the wicked shall fall by calamity.
Pro 24:17 Do not rejoice when your enemy falls,
And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles;
Pro 24:18 Lest the LORD see it, and it displease Him,
And He turn away His wrath from him.
Pro 24:19 Do not fret because of evildoers,
Nor be envious of the wicked;
Pro 24:20 For there will be no prospect for the evil man;
The lamp of the wicked will be put out.


I guess this bares repeating...

[Questioning Christian]

A lot of people have gotten so hung up on the wording of the title, about how many Charismatic / Pentecostal scandals there are, that they've forgotten the main content of my original post.

But for some reason, there seems to be an epidemic of sexual and financial wrongdoings in the Charismatic church.

I submit that we have allowed an atmosphere which winks at certain wrongs, while choosing to call fire down on others. It is a sad day when we don't view the TV preachers sins as "offending the little ones" but then on the other hand, we're quick to call out judgment on the little ones, using "touch not mine anointed" as a deflection from the rightful judgment of our favorite TV preacher.

Satan is doing enough damage when the preachers give occasion to the enemy to blaspheme; we don't need to compound it by falsely accusing people of "touching God's anointed".

The sin in a scandal is with the offender - not with the offender's critics.

Elijah needs to rise up in authority against Ahab and say...

"I am not the troublemaker; but it is YOU and your fathers who have troubled the house of Israel."

[HephzibahBenJudah]

A lot of people have gotten so hung up on the wording of the title, about how many Charismatic / Pentecostal scandals there are, that they've forgotten the main content of my original post.
1Th 5:5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
1Th 5:8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
1Th 5:11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.
1Th 5:12 And we urge you, brethren, to recognize those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you,
1Th 5:13 and to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. Be at peace among yourselves.
1Th 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all.
1Th 5:15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all.
1Th 5:16 Rejoice always,
1Th 5:17 pray without ceasing,
1Th 5:18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
1Th 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit.
1Th 5:20 Do not despise prophecies.
1Th 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
1Th 5:22 Abstain from every form of evil.
1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.
1Th 5:25 Brethren, pray for us.
1Th 5:26 Greet all the brethren with a holy kiss.
1Th 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read to all the holy brethren.
1Th 5:28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

[dkbwarrior]

A lot of people have gotten so hung up on the wording of the title, about how many Charismatic / Pentecostal scandals there are, that they've forgotten the main content of my original post.

C'mon QC, that is kinda like you are trying to rewrite your original set of accusations. You have even edited the OP to conform to your re-writing of the original issue.

Didn't you say this in the original OP (before you edited it out):


Look at Charles Stanley et al, and they are bashing in Satan's kingdom, but you don't see the big-scale scandals like you do with Charismatics.


I find it ironic that the person you hold up as an example of fidelity and moral standard divorced while in the pulpit, and continued to preach. (By the way, I make no judgement of this man of God, I don't know Charles Stanley, nor his situation, and pray that God restores him.)

You misstated a subject, then when some flaws were pointed out you turn around and edit your post and then say it is everyone else fault for misunderstanding what you are getting at.

These appear to be the actions of someone with an angenda rather than an objective look at what is going on in the church. If I am wrong, please correct me...

Peace...

[HephzibahBenJudah]

http://christianforums.com/t6620234-1-thessalonians-chapter-5.html

this might be an eye opener.

[Questioning Christian]

Okay, so I went back and reread what I had written, and came to the conclusion that people were responding to the title, rather than to the post.

My original intention was the focus on the post, and not on the title.

So maybe if someone disagrees, they might like to disagree with my actual post, where I wanted the focus in the first place.

... But for some reason, there seems to be an epidemic of sexual and financial wrongdoings in the Charismatic church.

I submit that we have allowed an atmosphere which winks at certain wrongs, while choosing to call fire down on others. It is a sad day when we don't view the TV preachers sins as "offending the little ones" but then on the other hand, we're quick to call out judgment on the little ones, using "touch not mine anointed" as a deflection from the rightful judgment of our favorite TV preacher.

Satan is doing enough damage when the preachers giv