Gifts of the Holy Spirit (please read the OP before posting)

[Cris413]

I believe this is an important topic.

Please note: Please keep a respectful and peaceful exchange...

The intension of this Thread is to share SCRIPTURAL foundations of the gifts of the Holy Spirit and to share how they are manifest in lives of Believers.

1Co 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
1Co 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

[Kelly]

I feel that they are still for today, but not everyone exhibits all of them.

Paul said "I wish you could all speak in tongues" this implies that not all can. I'm not going to put God in or out of the box. Saying the gifts are dead is just as false as saying everyone must speak in tongues or they don't have the HS.

[Cris413]

I believe we all have the gift of helps as the Spirit leads...

When we're obedient to God as He calls us to service I believe He equips us with the gift of of helps.

Otherwise...when we try to accomplish some service or task in our own strength...according to our own desires...we are not blessed with the gift of helps and can become overwhelmed and frustrated in our task/service to others...

With the gift of helps...according to His good will and purpose...we are strengthened and equiped, we do not grow weary and count it all joy to be of that particular service to which He has called us...

[Cabal]

I feel that they are still for today, but not everyone exhibits all of them.

Paul said "I wish you could all speak in tongues" this implies that not all can. I'm not going to put God in or out of the box. Saying the gifts are dead is just as false as saying everyone must speak in tongues or they don't have the HS.

How I wish everyone thought like this. It's incredible what lengths some groups go to to justify the whole "everyone pray in tongues NOW" thing.

[bill16652]

I believe that all the gifts are for today I do not believe that anyone has therm all nor do I believe that the body is lacking any either. God does not change in how He operastes so we must look to the Old Testament to see how these gifts were used. What changed is that instead of only the Spirit being upon it is now within. We will all be used as God wills and when He wills. The secret is to know your calling and to know the will of God in any situation and what He is telling you to do.

[BustedFlat]

I believe that all the gifts are for today I do not believe that anyone has therm all nor do I believe that the body is lacking any either. God does not change in how He operastes so we must look to the Old Testament to see how these gifts were used. What changed is that instead of only the Spirit being upon it is now within. We will all be used as God wills and when He wills. The secret is to know your calling and to know the will of God in any situation and what He is telling you to do.
No where in the Old Testament is the gifts more fully laid out than in the building and equipping of the Tabernacle. Each and every element of the construction was laid out by God, and each and every handyman was blessed with gift of the craft that was needed for the task at hand. We tend to, as Christians, focus on the gifts as Paul spoke of then and not so much on the gem cutting, gold smithing, carpentry, weaving, tailoring and such that Moses and his people needed to complete that task.

[Kelly]

I love that part in the OT where God says he's giving the craftsmen the knowledge of what it takes to do the required work to build the tabernacle.

I just imagine them laying in bed, waking up with this desire to build for God, a filled creative mind with no direction - then Moses arrives that morning at the tent with the news.

[Mathetes the kerux]

How I wish everyone thought like this. It's incredible what lengths some groups go to to justify the whole "everyone pray in tongues NOW" thing.
Do you mean when hyper charismatic churches ask their congregation to all speak in tongues at the same time?

Or do you mean the theological position that says that tongues is available for all believers?

[Mathetes the kerux]

I love that part in the OT where God says he's giving the craftsmen the knowledge of what it takes to do the required work to build the tabernacle.

I just imagine them laying in bed, waking up with this desire to build for God, a filled creative mind with no direction - then Moses arrives that morning at the tent with the news.
Yeah . . . I wonder how Bezalel's mind must have felt with the sudden influx of information and ability to wield the tools and craft the metal . . . mind boggling.

[Nadiine]

How I wish everyone thought like this. It's incredible what lengths some groups go to to justify the whole "everyone pray in tongues NOW" thing.
Well, it's actually not the Majority of Christians who claim ALL Christians speak in tongues - it's a small minority.
Even tho the Bible can't be any clearer than it is that we do not all have this gift, some still can't see the truth about it. Imho, those types of people are "visually" obsessed with 'signs' of some sort. They heavily rely on seeing the spiritual - not just faith that is unseen.
I don't claim to know that as fact, but it seems that way to me becuz they look for a tangible sign of salvation... if you don't have "THIS", you are unsaved.

*worse, they focus on this 1 gift when Paul teaches that prophecy is the best gift... I realize why they use tongues due to Pentecost, but Paul plays that gift down in Corinthians.

[IamRedeemed]

The Gift of Tongues is just that. One of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and salvation is not measured upon whether a person has or has not the gift. That would be like saying if you don't prophesy, you are not saved. Anyone who says any such thing doesn't really know what they are talking about. I personally have never heard it said that you are not saved if you don't speak in tongues, but people do say some wacky things, so you just never know.:doh:

[Mathetes the kerux]

Well, it's actually not the Majority of Christians who claim ALL Christians speak in tongues - it's a small minority.
Even tho the Bible can't be any clearer than it is that we do not all have this gift, some still can't see the truth about it. Imho, those types of people are "visually" obsessed with 'signs' of some sort. They heavily rely on seeing the spiritual - not just faith that is unseen.
I don't claim to know that as fact, but it seems that way to me becuz they look for a tangible sign of salvation... if you don't have "THIS", you are unsaved.

*worse, they focus on this 1 gift when Paul teaches that prophecy is the best gift... I realize why they use tongues due to Pentecost, but Paul plays that gift down in Corinthians.
Actually Nadine Paul doesn't play it down . . . he just qualifies the gift. For he EQUATES tongues with prophecy when tongues are interpreted.

[IisJustMe]

8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Paul teaches here that the gifts would cease to exist as a ministry of the church. Specifically, those include (as Paul named them) the gift of prophecy as understood in the Old Testament and up to this point of church history (i.e., speaking forth the word of God as told to the speaker); the gift of tongues so as to authenticate the message as being from God, a "sign" for those who had not previously heard the gospel; and the gift of knowledge as is applied to great moral wisdom from divine inspiration.

I already know there are those of you who will vehemently disagree, but no other interpretation is valid. It is not a subject change by Paul that plops the "love chapter" smack dab into the middle of a verbal tongue lashing the apostle gives Corinth for its abuse of the "signs and wonders" ministry he brought with him originally to confirm his message as being from God. He is saying we are not to desire the gift, but the Gifter, and to seek the gifts is an abuse of privilege in faith.

The canon of Scripture closed some 35 or so years after Paul wrote this epistle, when John recorded the revelation given him by Jesus Christ. There was no further need of the "signs and wonders" as the changed lives of the believers who preached the gospel was sufficient to confirm its truth. Knowledge and prophecy were, to that point, the preferred method of bringing the word of God to others, but now the young church was receiving God's word through the works of the apostles. I wonder if they even knew that the letters they wrote were going to be equal with Scripture already known, that is, what we know as the Old Testament writings. I doubt it. Nonetheless, the Holy Spirit was inspiring their work as surely as He inspired Moses, Samuel, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and all the prophets.

The so-called "spiritual gifts" serve absolutely no purpose today. If they did, why are so many convinced of the truth of the Bible without them? And since Paul called them "signs for unbelievers" why is it that churches today insist on practicing them in a worship setting? As for the one unmentioned by Paul, namely healing, I absolutely believe God heals today. But He doesn't need, nor even desire, a human agent to "help" Him. The focus and glory, otherwise, goes to the human agent, not to God, and God does not want us receiving that which rightfully belongs to Him.

Desire the greater gifts, as Paul so wisely tells us in I Corinthians 12:31. Put aside the "showboat" gifts that mean nothing today.

[Cris413]

I don't vehemently disagree...but I firmly disagree...;)

You will also note in Scripture...a few verses before those you quoted starting in 1 Cor 13:8

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

and continuing on in chapter 14

1Co 14:1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
1Co 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
1Co 14:3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.
1Co 14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
1Co 14:5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

Then the Paul goes on in the chapter to teach about the propriety of tongues...

I see no where Paul is teaching the gifts are done away with brother...actually...he teaches on them quite abundantly

[Mathetes the kerux]

8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Paul teaches here that the gifts would cease to exist as a ministry of the church. Specifically, those include (as Paul named them) the gift of prophecy as understood in the Old Testament and up to this point of church history (i.e., speaking forth the word of God as told to the speaker); the gift of tongues so as to authenticate the message as being from God, a "sign" for those who had not previously heard the gospel; and the gift of knowledge as is applied to great moral wisdom from divine inspiration.

I already know there are those of you who will vehemently disagree, but no other interpretation is valid. It is not a subject change by Paul that plops the "love chapter" smack dab into the middle of a verbal tongue lashing the apostle gives Corinth for its abuse of the "signs and wonders" ministry he brought with him originally to confirm his message as being from God. He is saying we are not to desire the gift, but the Gifter, and to seek the gifts is an abuse of privilege in faith.

The canon of Scripture closed some 35 or so years after Paul wrote this epistle, when John recorded the revelation given him by Jesus Christ. There was no further need of the "signs and wonders" as the changed lives of the believers who preached the gospel was sufficient to confirm its truth. Knowledge and prophecy were, to that point, the preferred method of bringing the word of God to others, but now the young church was receiving God's word through the works of the apostles. I wonder if they even knew that the letters they wrote were going to be equal with Scripture already known, that is, what we know as the Old Testament writings. I doubt it. Nonetheless, the Holy Spirit was inspiring their work as surely as He inspired Moses, Samuel, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and all the prophets.

The so-called "spiritual gifts" serve absolutely no purpose today. If they did, why are so many convinced of the truth of the Bible without them? And since Paul called them "signs for unbelievers" why is it that churches today insist on practicing them in a worship setting? As for the one unmentioned by Paul, namely healing, I absolutely believe God heals today. But He doesn't need, nor even desire, a human agent to "help" Him. The focus and glory, otherwise, goes to the human agent, not to God, and God does not want us receiving that which rightfully belongs to Him.

Desire the greater gifts, as Paul so wisely tells us in I Corinthians 12:31. Put aside the "showboat" gifts that mean nothing today.
Wow . . . we are gonna chew this one to peices . . . the ceasing couldn't have been the canon cause it wasn't written for another 2-300 years.

Let us start here . . . we will have some fun here!

[Mathetes the kerux]

8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Paul teaches here that the gifts would cease to exist as a ministry of the church. Specifically, those include (as Paul named them) the gift of prophecy as understood in the Old Testament and up to this point of church history (i.e., speaking forth the word of God as told to the speaker); the gift of tongues so as to authenticate the message as being from God, a "sign" for those who had not previously heard the gospel; and the gift of knowledge as is applied to great moral wisdom from divine inspiration.

I already know there are those of you who will vehemently disagree, but no other interpretation is valid. It is not a subject change by Paul that plops the "love chapter" smack dab into the middle of a verbal tongue lashing the apostle gives Corinth for its abuse of the "signs and wonders" ministry he brought with him originally to confirm his message as being from God. He is saying we are not to desire the gift, but the Gifter, and to seek the gifts is an abuse of privilege in faith.

The canon of Scripture closed some 35 or so years after Paul wrote this epistle, when John recorded the revelation given him by Jesus Christ. There was no further need of the "signs and wonders" as the changed lives of the believers who preached the gospel was sufficient to confirm its truth. Knowledge and prophecy were, to that point, the preferred method of bringing the word of God to others, but now the young church was receiving God's word through the works of the apostles. I wonder if they even knew that the letters they wrote were going to be equal with Scripture already known, that is, what we know as the Old Testament writings. I doubt it. Nonetheless, the Holy Spirit was inspiring their work as surely as He inspired Moses, Samuel, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and all the prophets.

The so-called "spiritual gifts" serve absolutely no purpose today. If they did, why are so many convinced of the truth of the Bible without them? And since Paul called them "signs for unbelievers" why is it that churches today insist on practicing them in a worship setting? As for the one unmentioned by Paul, namely healing, I absolutely believe God heals today. But He doesn't need, nor even desire, a human agent to "help" Him. The focus and glory, otherwise, goes to the human agent, not to God, and God does not want us receiving that which rightfully belongs to Him.

Desire the greater gifts, as Paul so wisely tells us in I Corinthians 12:31. Put aside the "showboat" gifts that mean nothing today.
Oh yeah . . . Paul DOES teach to seek the gifts (ie eagerly desire the gifts).

It is NOT seek the giver NOT the gifts . . . it IS seek the giver IN the gift.

The "eagerly desire" is a COMMAND as much as "when you pray . . . pray like this . . ."

[Nadiine]

I have to claim basic ignorance on this subject in any fullness.

I lean towards the gifts continuing - only that sadly, people are ABUSING the gifts by using them wrongly and/or faking the gifts for personal gain (ie. healers who do not heal people - and performing healings the wrong way, tongues demanded for proof of salvation and used in violation to Paul's guidelines, etc.) -

I also lean towards the gifts continuing for another reason, some wonderful God fearing people I know (or know of) speak in tongues & use them privately in prayer at home.
Pastor Raul Ries is one of them - he's not Pentecostal at all, but I've heard him say he speaks in tongues privately to God; there's no abnormal focus put onto them at his church either...
I trust that man, so it does make me wonder if the gifts aren't still operating today.

[rosiecotton]

I have to claim basic ignorance on this subject in any fullness.

I lean towards the gifts continuing - only that sadly, people are ABUSING the gifts by using them wrongly and/or faking the gifts for personal gain (ie. healers who do not heal people - and performing healings the wrong way, tongues demanded for proof of salvation and used in violation to Paul's guidelines, etc.) -

I also lean towards the gifts continuing for another reason, some wonderful God fearing people I know (or know of) speak in tongues & use them privately in prayer at home.
Pastor Raul Ries is one of them - he's not Pentecostal at all, but I've heard him say he speaks in tongues privately to God; there's no abnormal focus put onto them at his church either...
I trust that man, so it does make me wonder if the gifts aren't still operating today.

I basically believe the same thing. I have never spoken in tongues nor heard anyone speak in tongues, but that doesn't mean I don't believe they still exist. Just because I haven't experienced it doesn't mean it's not real.
The church I attend believes those gifts were done away with. They use 1 Corinthians 13:10- "when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears". Now, whenever I have read that verse, I have always believed the perfect is Jesus. However, they say it's the Bible.
I also know a couple people who have spoken in tongues in prayer. One attends our church and one use to. I have no reason to think they are lying to me.

[IisJustMe]

I also lean towards the gifts continuing for another reason, some wonderful God fearing people I know (or know of) speak in tongues & use them privately in prayer at home.
Pastor Raul Ries is one of them - he's not Pentecostal at all, but I've heard him say he speaks in tongues privately to God; there's no abnormal focus put onto them at his church either...I could accept the validity of "a private prayer language"if someone can answer this question for me:

"What fear do we have of Satan hearing our requests of God if we truly believe that 'He who is in us is greater than he who is in the world'?"

[Cris413]

I could accept the validity of "a private prayer language"if someone can answer this question for me:

"What fear do we have of Satan hearing our requests of God if we truly believe that 'He who is in us is greater than he who is in the world'?"

I'm not sure I understand the question. Where does the ideology come from that speaking in tongues is a result of fear of the enemy hearing prayer?

Could you expound a bit?

[DerSchweik]

This is a knotty topic, but I have to agree with Iisme on this issue - and generally for the reasons he articulates.

Paul concludes chapter 14 this way:

"Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner." (vs 39f)

But earlier, in v22 he states the purpose of tongues and prophecy:

"So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe."

And he then gives instruction to the church how to conduct themselves in the process, orderly, etc.

As I read of "spiritual gifts" I see them in this light - as a sign to both believers and unbelievers, whether the gift be of healing, or tongues, or prophesy, revelation or teaching.

When Paul states, "but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away with," I think he is speaking of the Bible (perfection = completeness, wholeness), something they did not have in the first century church. In other words, the Bible will do away with the need for the manifestation of Spiritual gifts and their attendant purpose as a sign to all who witness them.

Jesus came with miraculous powers that attested to who He was, giving His preaching and teaching immediate credibility that those to whom He preached would believe, if not for the words themselves, then for the attesting signs He performed.

"...this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." (Jn 3:2)

and,

"A large crowd followed Him, because they saw the signs which He was performing on those who were sick." (Jn 6:2)

and of the disciples themselves:

"These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." (Mk 16:17f)

and then this:

"And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed." (Mk 16:20a - emphasis mine)

The preaching of Jesus and His disciples was confirmed by the attendant signs they performed. In other words, the authority of the message preached was accompanied by signs, to give the message authority.

"Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;" (Mt 12:38f)

But Jesus gives the above warning to those desirous of seeing signs (ostensibly so they would believe).

"So Jesus said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe." (Jn 4:48)

And as I stated above, I believe the appearance of the Bible, the written word of God, negates any further need for the signs that are the Spiritual gifts (and I won't go into a dissertation on the value of the written word). If we now have God's written word in our hands, which was written that we might believe, what need to we have of Spiritual gifts, the purpose of which was to confirm the teachings of those in a time when the written word did not yet exist?

But, that's just my humble opinion - I could be wrong.

God bless!

[zeke37]

Personally, I do not understand how people can say that confusion is a gift. But the fact is that Paul specifically speaks about how to turn confusion into non-confusion

he teaches that we are to use gifted interpreters(bi-lingual, multi-lingual translators) to help the preacher get the message across...so that when a foreign preacher preaches to you, or you go somewhere where they do not know your language and preach....that those listening will understand and know when to say AMEN...


1Cor14 is all about order while sharing your scriptures and psalms....and we cannot have order if one group can't understand the other....


this non-linguistic ecstatic tongue cannot be a gift of God, cause there is no interpretation that is private...


but the gift of multi-lingualism to promote God's plan, is indeed a gift...and together, the preacher and the interpreter can teach the people the Gospel truth in their own language...so they understand....and can come to God....

if those foreign speaking people come to God, then that is absolute proof that the Holy Spirit is at work....they don't know Hebrew and/or Greek, cannot read the scriptures for themselves, and yet...after the interpretation, they can understand and become a child of God...

if you honestly keep that in mind, and re-read 1Cor14, you may see what I am saying, logically, without any confusion....



God knows all languages, but men do not, so we need to bring interpreters with us when we go to a place where they do not understand us....logical as I said, and avoids confusion...as Paul teaches...

no offence meant....I did read the OP...


IMO, this gift of "tongues" is the only gift that seems to be misinterpreted....



if anyone would like to do a study on the whole chapter 14 of 1Cor, PM me and we shall learn together...


in His service
c



P.S. ......prophesy...can mean teaching the prophesies of the bible, not necessarily that there are NEW prophesies....people seem to think that man can speak the ecstatic charismatic tongue and receive a new prophesy...totally not scriptural, but traditions of man.....

not understanding the chapter and building a doctrine upon the misinterpretation....and now there are 100's of millions of charismatics who believe such a lie...


there heart is in the right place, and I am certainly not judging them.... but......

[IisJustMe]

I'm not sure I understand the question. Where does the ideology come from that speaking in tongues is a result of fear of the enemy hearing prayer? Could you expound a bit?Why else would you pray in a language even you can't understand??

[Cris413]

Why else would you pray in a language even you can't understand??
I personally do not have the gift of tongues. As for the primary reason for the gift of tongues being a secret code to confound the enemy....I've never heard of anything like that.

My understanding is that speaking in tongues is perfect personal prayer and simply that...unless there is also interpretation for the edification of all.

I've never heard anyone...I consider reliable...speak in tongues.

A very dear friend of mine...someone I trust completely, told me she has the gift of tongues but I never heard her speak in tongues...she said it was private, personal prayer.

Now, I did go to a church once...where everyone seemed to be jabbering at the same time and it seemed chaotic and confusing and I left quietly...knowing that whatever gibberish this was...it wasn't right.

...but I do not exclude tongues as a valid gift of the Spirit simply because there are those that confuse the gift with some intense emotional experience.

As far as speaking in tongues as a sign...I don't understand that either...it has never occurred to me that the gifts of the Spirit were some sort of "sign"

I consider the gifts are manifest in some according to the good will and purpose of the Spirit...an enabling or an equipping for the work or ministry to which one is called.

There are many gifts of the Spirit...my thoughts are...to exclude one would be to exclude them all and this is simply not what Scripture tells us.

It seems there are many who are not comfortable with the gifts of tongues or healing or prophesy so they must be done away with or deemed no longer applicable today to fit more comfortably in our own understanding.

These are just my thoughts. Something to prayerfully consider and search the Scriptures regarding...

[IisJustMe]

I personally do not have the gift of tongues. As for the primary reason for the gift of tongues being a secret code to confound the enemy....I've never heard of anything like that. My understanding is that speaking in tongues is perfect personal prayer and simply that...unless there is also interpretation for the edification of all.This doesn't make any sense to me. Why pray in a language one doesn't understand if the purpose is to express to God praises, intercessions and petitions? God doesn't expect us to present perfect prayer to Him, all He expects is for us to communicate with Him. Often we don't know what to ask, and I seriously doubt a "private prayer language" is going to reveal something to God He doesn't already know about me anyway.

It sounds like a man-made excuse to live out something that was man-made in the first place. Paul said tongues would cease, and I believe they did, just as did prophecy and knowledge, as I explained in an earlier post.

[Cris413]

This doesn't make any sense to me. Why pray in a language one doesn't understand if the purpose is to express to God praises, intercessions and petitions? God doesn't expect us to present perfect prayer to Him, all He expects is for us to communicate with Him. Often we don't know what to ask, and I seriously doubt a "private prayer language" is going to reveal something to God He doesn't already know about me anyway.

It sounds like a man-made excuse to live out something that was man-made in the first place. Paul said tongues would cease, and I believe they did, just as did prophecy and knowledge, as I explained in an earlier post.

I believe one speaking in tongues has understanding.

And if we consider prayer is something we are conveying to reveal something to God that He doesn't already know...well...that's just futile. We all understand prayer is communing with God as we're called to do. Spending time with Him in prayer and in His word.

I certainly don't have all the answers and IMHO...gifts of the Spirit are not something to create division...as it has in the hearts and minds of some.

I'm very grateful for your insight on a good many things brother...this just doesn't happen to be an understanding we share...

What we do share is a deep love for the Lord and I think that is a layer of what Paul is addressing here 1 Corinthians

1Co 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

I believe verses 10-12 are addressing an understanding at the return of Christ Jesus...

And that these things that we lack in understanding now will be revealed at that time...

but in the meantime...disputes regarding such things is futile...as that love for the Lord and love for one another is more important than the gifts each of us have or do not have.

It's not really up to me to convince anyone of the gifts of the Spirit...these are simply my understandings.

Blessings brother! :hug:
</IMG>

[Cris413]

<snipped and I encourage reading the entire post>


no offence meant....I did read the OP...
None taken

Regarding the OP...my intent is not to disuade anyone that does not believe the gifts are still applicable today from posting...

Only that Scriptural support be included and the conversation kept respectful and friendly...

As I mentioned...this shouldn't be a topic to create discord and division....simply a sharing of thoughts and understanding.

And so far it's been a wonderful discussion! :thumbsup:

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts!

[IisJustMe]

I believe verses 10-12 are addressing an understanding at the return of Christ Jesus...That doesn't fit the context. I Corinthians is not a change of subject in the midst of Paul's chastising the church at Corinth. It is very much the same subject. He has completed what we call chapter 12 by saying that we are to desire the greater gifts. He gives example of using tongues, prophecy and knowledge without showing Christ's love, then proceeds to explain what Christian love is, not simply in the context of husband and wife. In fact, he wasn't even thinking of marital love in this example.

Then he says that tongues, knowledge and prophecy will cease. Twice Paul says (of prophecy and of knowledge) that these things will be "done away" with. The Greek word is katargeo which means to "deactivate" or make inactive, or to render idle. This implies a continuing reality in which these things could be used, but that will not be used. That isn't heaven. where there will be no need for them. Of tongues, Paul says they will "cease," the Greek pauo meaning "to restrain from" using or doing. No one in heaven will be "restrained" so this can only mean a similar circumstance as katargeo.

I go to the gospel passage quoting Jesus saying, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father." (John 14:12) Jesus was not saying that we would do greater miracles than He, except that by our testimony lives would be changed whereas in His ministry He had to confirm His identity with the miracles. He gave tongues to confirm His messengers were from God, to a people who had never heard of Him. Today, it is impossible, nearly, to find someone who has not at least heard the name of Jesus. Change through witness without confirmation, is a true miracle, and the reason tongues, prophecy and knowledge ceased in 96 AD with the close of the biblical canon.

[Cris413]

That doesn't fit the context. I Corinthians is not a change of subject in the midst of Paul's chastising the church at Corinth. It is very much the same subject. He has completed what we call chapter 12 by saying that we are to desire the greater gifts. He gives example of using tongues, prophecy and knowledge without showing Christ's love, then proceeds to explain what Christian love is, not simply in the context of husband and wife. In fact, he wasn't even thinking of marital love in this example.

Then he says that tongues, knowledge and prophecy will cease. Twice Paul says (of prophecy and of knowledge) that these things will be "done away" with. The Greek word is katargeo which means to "deactivate" or make inactive, or to render idle. This implies a continuing reality in which these things could be used, but that will not be used. That isn't heaven. where there will be no need for them. Of tongues, Paul says they will "cease," the Greek pauo meaning "to restrain from" using or doing. No one in heaven will be "restrained" so this can only mean a similar circumstance as katargeo.

I go to the gospel passage quoting Jesus saying, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father." (John 14:12) Jesus was not saying that we would do greater miracles than He, except that by our testimony lives would be changed whereas in His ministry He had to confirm His identity with the miracles. He gave tongues to confirm His messengers were from God, to a people who had never heard of Him. Today, it is impossible, nearly, to find someone who has not at least heard the name of Jesus. Change through witness without confirmation, is a true miracle, and the reason tongues, prophecy and knowledge ceased in 96 AD with the close of the biblical canon.
Thanks brother...thoughts to prayfully consider and search the Scripture considering.

Blessings!

[Mathetes the kerux]

I could accept the validity of "a private prayer language"if someone can answer this question for me:

"What fear do we have of Satan hearing our requests of God if we truly believe that 'He who is in us is greater than he who is in the world'?"
I am taking it that the reason people have given you for a private prayer language is so that Satan doesn't hear?

That is BAD exegesis . . . that is not in lieu of ANYTHING the Bible says on tongues and is a common error perpetuated by many of my well meaning, but wrong, Charismatic bretheren.

[Mathetes the kerux]

This is a knotty topic, but I have to agree with Iisme on this issue - and generally for the reasons he articulates.

Paul concludes chapter 14 this way:

"Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner." (vs 39f)

But earlier, in v22 he states the purpose of tongues and prophecy:

"So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe."

And he then gives instruction to the church how to conduct themselves in the process, orderly, etc.

As I read of "spiritual gifts" I see them in this light - as a sign to both believers and unbelievers, whether the gift be of healing, or tongues, or prophesy, revelation or teaching.

When Paul states, "but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away with," I think he is speaking of the Bible (perfection = completeness, wholeness), something they did not have in the first century church. In other words, the Bible will do away with the need for the manifestation of Spiritual gifts and their attendant purpose as a sign to all who witness them.

Jesus came with miraculous powers that attested to who He was, giving His preaching and teaching immediate credibility that those to whom He preached would believe, if not for the words themselves, then for the attesting signs He performed.

"...this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." (Jn 3:2)

and,

"A large crowd followed Him, because they saw the signs which He was performing on those who were sick." (Jn 6:2)

and of the disciples themselves:

"These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." (Mk 16:17f)

and then this:

"And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed." (Mk 16:20a - emphasis mine)

The preaching of Jesus and His disciples was confirmed by the attendant signs they performed. In other words, the authority of the message preached was accompanied by signs, to give the message authority.

"Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;" (Mt 12:38f)

But Jesus gives the above warning to those desirous of seeing signs (ostensibly so they would believe).

"So Jesus said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe." (Jn 4:48)

And as I stated above, I believe the appearance of the Bible, the written word of God, negates any further need for the signs that are the Spiritual gifts (and I won't go into a dissertation on the value of the written word). If we now have God's written word in our hands, which was written that we might believe, what need to we have of Spiritual gifts, the purpose of which was to confirm the teachings of those in a time when the written word did not yet exist?

But, that's just my humble opinion - I could be wrong.

God bless!
Can't be the bible cause it wasn't canonised yet . . . and the perfect is personified by being able to see and know and has a face . . . not to mention "face to face" is a Jewish idiom meaning "direct encounter with God."

[Mathetes the kerux]

Why else would you pray in a language even you can't understand??
Ah, ha.

Here is where good exegesis comes into play . . . it is communion with God beyond the level of the mind. When one speaks in tongues the frontal lobe (logic and speech centers) of the brain are less active and the emotive regions of the brain are the primary active location. Same when we sing . . . the emotive regions are the active regions.

Paul says that tongues are between the practioner and God . . . and that tongues edifies the practioner. In order for others to engage in the edification . . . because their souls/spirits are not recieving the benefits that the individual is, there needs to be an interpretation for a) the benefit of the non-speaker and b) so people who are ignorant or non-believing won't think people are crazy.

So tongues are NOT for the "hiding" of things from Satan.

[Mathetes the kerux]

This is a knotty topic, but I have to agree with Iisme on this issue - and generally for the reasons he articulates.

Paul concludes chapter 14 this way:

"Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner." (vs 39f)

But earlier, in v22 he states the purpose of tongues and prophecy:

"So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe."

And he then gives instruction to the church how to conduct themselves in the process, orderly, etc.

As I read of "spiritual gifts" I see them in this light - as a sign to both believers and unbelievers, whether the gift be of healing, or tongues, or prophesy, revelation or teaching.

When Paul states, "but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away with," I think he is speaking of the Bible (perfection = completeness, wholeness), something they did not have in the first century church. In other words, the Bible will do away with the need for the manifestation of Spiritual gifts and their attendant purpose as a sign to all who witness them.

Jesus came with miraculous powers that attested to who He was, giving His preaching and teaching immediate credibility that those to whom He preached would believe, if not for the words themselves, then for the attesting signs He performed.

"...this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." (Jn 3:2)

and,

"A large crowd followed Him, because they saw the signs which He was performing on those who were sick." (Jn 6:2)

and of the disciples themselves:

"These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." (Mk 16:17f)

and then this:

"And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed." (Mk 16:20a - emphasis mine)

The preaching of Jesus and His disciples was confirmed by the attendant signs they performed. In other words, the authority of the message preached was accompanied by signs, to give the message authority.

"Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;" (Mt 12:38f)

But Jesus gives the above warning to those desirous of seeing signs (ostensibly so they would believe).

"So Jesus said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe." (Jn 4:48)

And as I stated above, I believe the appearance of the Bible, the written word of God, negates any further need for the signs that are the Spiritual gifts (and I won't go into a dissertation on the value of the written word). If we now have God's written word in our hands, which was written that we might believe, what need to we have of Spiritual gifts, the purpose of which was to confirm the teachings of those in a time when the written word did not yet exist?

But, that's just my humble opinion - I could be wrong.

God bless!
Actually the main purpose for ALL the gifts (tongues included) is the edification of the church. The "sign" passage is quite obscure . . . and in Acts 10 & 19 the gift served as a sign FOR BELIEVERS.

[Mathetes the kerux]

This doesn't make any sense to me. Why pray in a language one doesn't understand if the purpose is to express to God praises, intercessions and petitions? God doesn't expect us to present perfect prayer to Him, all He expects is for us to communicate with Him. Often we don't know what to ask, and I seriously doubt a "private prayer language" is going to reveal something to God He doesn't already know about me anyway.

It sounds like a man-made excuse to live out something that was man-made in the first place. Paul said tongues would cease, and I believe they did, just as did prophecy and knowledge, as I explained in an earlier post.
If the purpose is to foster a depth that goes beyond understanding (IE much deeper than the intellect) . . . then why not? That is not man made but rather a gift from God to His people to aid in affections for Him.

[Mathetes the kerux]

I believe one speaking in tongues has understanding.

And if we consider prayer is something we are conveying to reveal something to God that He doesn't already know...well...that's just futile. We all understand prayer is communing with God as we're called to do. Spending time with Him in prayer and in His word.

I certainly don't have all the answers and IMHO...gifts of the Spirit are not something to create division...as it has in the hearts and minds of some.

I'm very grateful for your insight on a good many things brother...this just doesn't happen to be an understanding we share...

What we do share is a deep love for the Lord and I think that is a layer of what Paul is addressing here 1 Corinthians

1Co 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

I believe verses 10-12 are addressing an understanding at the return of Christ Jesus...

And that these things that we lack in understanding now will be revealed at that time...

but in the meantime...disputes regarding such things is futile...as that love for the Lord and love for one another is more important than the gifts each of us have or do not have.

It's not really up to me to convince anyone of the gifts of the Spirit...these are simply my understandings.

Blessings brother! :hug:
</IMG>
1 Cor 14 1-3 says that NO ONE knows what is being said in tongues . . . that is an all inclusive in the Greek . . . which means NO ONE AT ALL . . . including the pracitioner. Hence he has to "pray" for an interpretation . . .

pax

[Mathetes the kerux]

That doesn't fit the context. I Corinthians is not a change of subject in the midst of Paul's chastising the church at Corinth. It is very much the same subject. He has completed what we call chapter 12 by saying that we are to desire the greater gifts. He gives example of using tongues, prophecy and knowledge without showing Christ's love, then proceeds to explain what Christian love is, not simply in the context of husband and wife. In fact, he wasn't even thinking of marital love in this example.

Then he says that tongues, knowledge and prophecy will cease. Twice Paul says (of prophecy and of knowledge) that these things will be "done away" with. The Greek word is katargeo which means to "deactivate" or make inactive, or to render idle. This implies a continuing reality in which these things could be used, but that will not be used. That isn't heaven. where there will be no need for them. Of tongues, Paul says they will "cease," the Greek pauo meaning "to restrain from" using or doing. No one in heaven will be "restrained" so this can only mean a similar circumstance as katargeo.

I go to the gospel passage quoting Jesus saying, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father." (John 14:12) Jesus was not saying that we would do greater miracles than He, except that by our testimony lives would be changed whereas in His ministry He had to confirm His identity with the miracles. He gave tongues to confirm His messengers were from God, to a people who had never heard of Him. Today, it is impossible, nearly, to find someone who has not at least heard the name of Jesus. Change through witness without confirmation, is a true miracle, and the reason tongues, prophecy and knowledge ceased in 96 AD with the close of the biblical canon.
Concerning the usage of the Greek:

In heaven we WILL continue in Revelation AND knowledge as we explore the infathomable depths of our eternal King . . . we will never exhaust either of these. The shape in which they are meted to His people certainly changes (from a mirror dimly to direct revelation) but the revelation and knowledge of the eternal One to His finite creatures will continue into all of eternity . . . that is part of the glory of heaven.

As for tongues, they will be needed no more because the depth of intimacy that they have fostered will be superceded by the DIRECT union with the Father, Son and Spirit and the Bride of Christ . . . the intimacy will be pervasive and total . . . and "partial" will be done away with.

So the Greek verbs do NOT necessitate a ceasing of the gifts until the return of Christ.

Pax

[IisJustMe]

In heaven we WILL continue in Revelation AND knowledge as we explore the infathomable depths of our eternal King . . .We will know these things at our transfiguration. There will be no study or educational experience -- we will just know. For that reason, we will constantly and unceasingly praise and glorify God because, as the angels now, we will intimately know Him and His plan, and His ways.As for tongues, they will be needed no more because the depth of intimacy that they have fostered will be superceded by the DIRECT union with the Father, Son and Spirit and the Bride of Christ . . .Tongues are not needed now. The very fact of changed lives is sufficient to confirm the gospel message. "Signs and wonders" of being delivered from alcoholism or drug abuse, mental illness, prison, depression -- all of these are far more evidence of God's power than speaking gibberish in public or in private.So the Greek verbs do NOT necessitate a ceasing of the gifts until the return of Christ.PaxActually, because of their definition in context, placement and tense, they do require just that.

[Nadiine]

We will know these things at our transfiguration. There will be no study or educational experience -- we will just know. For that reason, we will constantly and unceasingly praise and glorify God because, as the angels now, we will intimately know Him and His plan, and His ways.
1 Corinthians 13:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=13&verse=12&version=50&context=verse)
For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

I think we'll have supernatural knowledge when we're changed too... I don't believe we'll know ALL that God knows... (ie. to fully know the mind of God) - we won't be equal to God.

Tongues are not needed now. The very fact of changed lives is sufficient to confirm the gospel message. "Signs and wonders" of being delivered from alcoholism or drug abuse, mental illness, prison, depression -- all of these are far more evidence of God's power than speaking gibberish in public or in private.
I don't think it's "gibberish" to God tho... if tongues ARE valid today, then God can interpret them; since the 'ecstatic utterance' was to have an interpretor if used in public.
That would mean that God gifted some to speak in tongues & others to interpret them for edification of others hearing it. In private prayer, I would imagine it could amazing to use with God. I don't know becuz I don't have it.
My issue is people abusing it when Paul is crystal clear on what not to do.

[IisJustMe]

(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=13&verse=12&version=50&context=verse) in a I don't think it's "gibberish" to God tho..I think God inspired Paul to express His own thoughts on the matter: "However, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue." (I Corinthians 14:19) God doesn't need to hear some "secret prayer language" or anything else other than our true, heartfelt praise, worship, intercessions and petitions. We can best offer those just speaking from our heart in words we understand.if tongues ARE valid today, then God can interpret them; since the 'ecstatic utterance' was to have an interpretor if used in public.He doesn't need to hear the "estatic utterance" though. In fact, virtually everything Paul says about tongues is negative, and those things that are not must be taken in the context of the times. Tongues was not yet an invalid gift, but it was dying out even in that time, and in 30 years would no longer be a gift.That would mean that God gifted some to speak in tongues & others to interpret them for edification of others hearing it.That's exactly what it means. But only for that time, not after the canon closed. In private prayer, I would imagine it could amazing to use with God.Personally, I think God finds it annoying. Why speak a language -- or worse, unintelligible gibberish -- we don't understand when, as I said above, we can just speak our hearts? I believe tongues to be arrogance, and completely out of place today.

[Mathetes the kerux]

We will know these things at our transfiguration. There will be no study or educational experience -- we will just know. For that reason, we will constantly and unceasingly praise and glorify God because, as the angels now, we will intimately know Him and His plan, and His ways.Tongues are not needed now. The very fact of changed lives is sufficient to confirm the gospel message. "Signs and wonders" of being delivered from alcoholism or drug abuse, mental illness, prison, depression -- all of these are far more evidence of God's power than speaking gibberish in public or in private.Actually, because of their definition in context, placement and tense, they do require just that.
You have one assumption that must be addressed . . . tongues were NOT for evangelism . . . they were, as Paul stated, primarily for the edification of the church.

Also, the tense context etc does NOT necessitate a cessation as of NOW.

The "when" of when the perfect comes is the "then" of the then I will see face to face . . . know as I am known . . .

so the question is what is the "perfect" . . . you believe it is the canon.

Textually and hermeneutically it CANNOT be. I assume this is where we disagree . . . correct?

Seems this is the good place to start . . . agreed?

[Nadiine]

I think God inspired Paul to express His own thoughts on the matter: "However, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue." (I Corinthians 14:19)
editing in: (context of verse)
16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say?
17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.

Paul was saying this about PEOPLE - people hearing the 'ecstatic utterance' in church means and does NOTHING without an interpretor... but GOD is the one that gifts the interpretors - they would know what it means.
So using tongues Privately in prayer to God is edifying to YOU with God -- it's only helpful if interpretors were used when in public... so the verse is being used outside it's context to refer to God instead of Paul's meaning: to other PEOPLE hearing it.

God doesn't need to hear some "secret prayer language" or anything else other than our true, heartfelt praise, worship, intercessions and petitions.
On that, I'm not so sure... it isn't a matter of what God "needs"... it matters what the heart of the one praying is (using tongues or regular prayer). I can't assume to say what God "needs" to hear from His people or not.

We can best offer those just speaking from our heart in words we understand.He doesn't need to hear the "estatic utterance" though.
My belief is tht PEOPLE don't need it - but since God created it.... and it's a gift He gave... I can't say with any comfort that "God doesn't need it". (why did He even create it in the first place? I've lived without tongues all my life and didn't attend any churches that used them in public... I have no "need" of them so I wonder why they existed in the first place).

Since that's the case, I can't say why God even made them! But I don't feel comfortable to say they do nothing TODAY or God doesn't value them in private prayer from His people (if indeed they still exist).

In fact, virtually everything Paul says about tongues is negative, and those things that are not must be taken in the context of the times. Tongues was not yet an invalid gift, but it was dying out even in that time, and in 30 years would no longer be a gift.That's exactly what it means. But only for that time, not after the canon closed.
I personally think the negatives Paul was displaying weren't against the tongues - (becuz he said he spoke in tongues himself) - but the ABUSE of them in the Corinthian church. That church was extremely carnal.

I tend to think that church was doing what many of them do today; overemphasize THAT GIFT OVER ALL OTHERS... Paul was trying to put it in it's proper place; that the OTHER gifts are so much better, seek those instead of obsessing on this one. (just like we say to the people who obsess on tongues still today).. for some reason this one gift is just fanatisized - it's kooky, WIERD to me what the pull is with this gift!!! :tutu:
Tongues is a VISIBLE sign... and I tend to think people focused on that outward appearance stuff.

Personally, I think God finds it annoying. Why speak a language -- or worse, unintelligible gibberish -- we don't understand when, as I said above, we can just speak our hearts? I believe tongues to be arrogance, and completely out of place today
Abuse of tongues is annoying to me... so abuse of it would be annoying to God, I'm sure.
But again, what's unintelligible to you & me, may not be to GOD if He's the author of that language. What language is gibberish to God when He knows the heart behind the prayer?

So I do know what you mean, I just don't necessarily agree with what you base your assertions on at the source.
I frankly don't know if tongues still exists... but some people I do know/know of who are completely credible Christians (non pentecostals/charasmatics) claim they use them privately - I just don't see them as 'faking' it when they don't obsess on them or have anything to do w/ them in the churches they lead or go to.

I dunno.... it's not a gift I care about personally. I don't understand the hype about it at all:scratch: :confused:

[IisJustMe]

Paul was saying this about PEOPLE - people hearing the 'ecstatic utterance' in church means and does NOTHING without an interpretor... but GOD is the one that gifts the interpretors - they would know what it means.Paul makes it plain throughout the epistle that tongues are being abused in the church at Corinth, and he advises a severe curtailing of the usage of the gift, a gift he says (sorry to repeat this) will pass from use soon (in his time or shortly thereafter -- it was in fact when John completed the bilbical canon with the Revelation in 96 AD), as stated in I Corinthians 13. Also, "ecstatic utterance" is a human concept. The Bible never uses the terminology.So using tongues Privately in prayer to God is edifying to YOU with God -- Nothing I cannot understand will "edify" me. That's the concept I simply cannot grasp the basis of. It doesn't appear that way in the Bible. It is an invented concept.it's only helpful if interpretors were used when in public...Why do interpreters need to be used in public but it is OK to pray in a language the person praying doesn't understand? What purpose is served by praying something and not even knowing what it is you said? How can that "edify" anyone, or be of personal value? The "awe" of speaking so? Frankly, not knowing what I said would be of major concern to me. How do I know it was actually the Spirit inspiring me, or something lower? Also, it never says the Spirit will give me words. It says that the Spirit understands our groanings we can't even put into words. That's a major difference. That verse describes a time of great personal anguish and emotional distraughtness that happens only very rarely, and cannot be used to justify tongues.

None of these teachings are found in the Bible as used in today's charismatic or so-called "spirit filled" churches. Everything they do is exactly as the Corinthian church did it, and Paul was upset enough with Corinth to write a scolding letter to correct themOn that, I'm not so sure... it isn't a matter of what God "needs"... it matters what the heart of the one praying is (using tongues or regular prayer). I can't assume to say what God "needs" to hear from His people or not.OK, then ask yourself this: If Jesus told people not to pray repetitively as do the Gentiles, do you think He's be pleased by a prayer we don't even understand??My belief is tht PEOPLE don't need it - but since God created it.... and it's a gift He gave... I can't say with any comfort that "God doesn't need it".I can. the gift was for the unbeliever, not for God. The purpose was to confirm the origin of the message prior to the name of Jesus being known throughout the world. Now, the confirming evidence is millions of changed lives, changes that cannot be denied. God never needed the gift. It was for those who wouldn't otherwise trust the message.

[whatfor]

Ok, I am confused a bit here, or thick.

I pray in tongues, but still don't understand exactly what is mean't by being edified by using them in private prayer.
Maybe I don't understand exactly what edifying is.

I guess I am after a response from those who pray in tongues.
I have experienced some amazing things while praying in tongues.
The thing I still don't understand is some of the feelings/sensations it causes, or God gives as a result of it.
I just can't work out what or why this happens, it can be so overwhelming at times, or give pleasurable sensations, or other times is like overwhelming love.

I know , sorry I can't really explain any better , but has me confused.
Why does this happen, and how if tongues aren't supposed to work as some say?

Also can someone explain how you can abuse using tongues?

Hopefully someone has an answer for me.

[Cris413]

After several hours of research regarding 1 Corinthians 13 I came across some pretty interesting conclusions and confusions.

It seems scholars and teachers regarding this Scripture all pretty much have the same things in common and in conflict.

Everyone seems to agree the gifts of tongues and prophesy will end at some time but love endures forever.

The conflict seems to arise regarding exactly when these gifts of the Spirit ceased or will cease. Here on earth now after the canonization of Scripture…or will it they cease here on earth after Christ Jesus returns.

Interestingly…these thoughts seem to be divided between several men, whom I personally consider to be great teachers and theologians, men who are much more knowledgeable than I could ever hope to be.

I personally feel most comfortable with David Guzik’s commentary. Not simply because he’s a CC Pastor but because his commentary seems to make the most sense to me considering the fullness of Scripture.

And his commentary regarding the understanding of what “the perfect” is, which confirmed my thought that this is referring to being in the presence of the Perfect One, Jesus Christ.

Although I consider the Scriptures to be the infallible and inerrant word of God, perfect in the original manuscripts…I consider that there is yet revelation to be made known. There are mysteries in Scripture that we will have no full understanding of until the return of our Lord and Savior and He reveals them to us personally...face to face.

1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

I will admit I’m partial to CC teachings because of the exponential approach to Bible study. I’ve always been more comfortable with pastor/teachers going exponentially through the word of God because it lends more to teaching and understanding being formed by Scripture than simply finding Scripture that best supports the teaching.

Here's the link should anyone anyone like to review it:

Commentary by David Guzik 1 Corinthians Chapter 13
http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/david_guzik/sg/1Cr_13.html (http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/david_guzik/sg/1Cr_13.html)


Something I have considered before…and no longer consider as I’ve grown in the Spirit was that because I didn’t speak in tongues…or seem to have any Spiritual gift that I was somehow lacking spiritually.

Scripture shows me the error in my thinking.


1Co 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
1Co 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

Which of course leads into 1 Corinthians Chapter 13.

Now there are those who do consider because they have the gift of tongues or some other spiritual gift that they are somehow spiritually superior to others…

And Paul goes on the in the Spirit to address the error in that line of thinking as well in Chapter 13

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;


So apparently…these issues with the gift of tongues and such and people abusing them have been around for a long, long time and apparently would continue for a long, long time as God saw it important enough to inspire Paul to write about it in such detail.

Lastly…my thoughts are…that I could probably spend another 3 hours or 3 days or 30 years researching this and be no more 100% certain than all of the teachers and theologians I’ve researched so far could.

And...my original thoughts on the issue remain...whether we as individuals consider the gifts are still applicable for today or not we are all still the Body and this is simply not an issue to cause division in the Body

...LOVE is still the most excellent way!

[kallenfranchise]

I believe God blesses everyone.

Apostles (very rare, 25 in 1,000,000,000)
Prophets (rare, 1,000 in 1,000,000,000)
Teachers (very popular 1,000,000 in 1,000,000,000)
Gifts of Healing (very rare, 500 in 1,000,000,000)
Speaking in Tongues (popular, 500,000 in 1,000,000,000)

These are not accurate numbers (of course) but it gives you an idea.

Tongue speakers and the teachers (which include pastors, evangelists, bishops, ministers) are the more common and I think God had it planned that way. He gives a significant amount of people the gift of prophecy but some people don't use their talents to God's glory. When do you ever see an apostle these days? And gifts of healing you don't see that much but it still goes on today.

I think God's distribution of spiritual gifts is perfect.

[Nadiine]

(Chris) And...my original thoughts on the issue remain...whether we as individuals consider the gifts are still applicable for today or not we are all still the Body and this is simply not an issue to cause division in the Body

...LOVE is still the most excellent way!
:amen: Thanks for the study & info you posted here!

I don't and won't divide over this subject either. I'm very comfortable to admit that I don't fully know something on it. This is another instance when the Bible just isn't clear enough on WHEN these end to make a more emphatic decision and when I see credible & respectable Christian scholars who differ, I feel I'm in good company. :P

But we can follow what we do know from the scriptures that are very clear on the issue of gifts - using them properly and seeking to love above all.
:hug: :hug:

[Nadiine]

Ok, I am confused a bit here, or thick.

I pray in tongues, but still don't understand exactly what is mean't by being edified by using them in private prayer.
Maybe I don't understand exactly what edifying is.

I guess I am after a response from those who pray in tongues.
I have experienced some amazing things while praying in tongues.
The thing I still don't understand is some of the feelings/sensations it causes, or God gives as a result of it.
I just can't work out what or why this happens, it can be so overwhelming at times, or give pleasurable sensations, or other times is like overwhelming love.

I know , sorry I can't really explain any better , but has me confused.
Why does this happen, and how if tongues aren't supposed to work as some say?

Also can someone explain how you can abuse using tongues?

Hopefully someone has an answer for me.
:wave: Are you going to a local church? Church is important for us in lots of ways - if I had that gift, I'd be finding a church where others spoke in tongues and talk with them (or the Pastor/assistant staff leaders) about it.

The way tongues get abused is using them publically around others (usually publically in church - during church) where others can hear people using them, but there's no one there interpreting.
That is abuse of the gift - it's useless (if not damaging) to the ones hearing it becuz it's another language & they get nothing out of it (except the creeps) lol.

It's like any other language - if you don't speak someone's language, get an interpretor so the ones hearing you will know what you're saying and be "edified" (get something helpful from it/understanding).

That's how I view all that. :wave:

[Cris413]

<snip>

But we can follow what we do know from the scriptures that are very clear on the issue of gifts - using them properly and seeking to love above all.
:hug: :hug:
:amen: sister
:wave: Are you going to a local church? Church is important for us in lots of ways - if I had that gift, I'd be finding a church where others spoke in tongues and talk with them (or the Pastor/assistant staff leaders) about it.

The way tongues get abused is using them publically around others (usually publically in church - during church) where others can hear people using them, but there's no one there interpreting.
That is abuse of the gift - it's useless (if not damaging) to the ones hearing it becuz it's another language & they get nothing out of it (except the creeps) lol.

It's like any other language - if you don't speak someone's language, get an interpretor so the ones hearing you will know what you're saying and be "edified" (get something helpful from it/understanding).

That's how I view all that. :wave:
And a proper view it is IMHO. As I mentioned earlier...the church I visited when I was a new Believer. Two preachers were on the platform both with microphones and both talking and shouting and murmuring at the same time. It was like they were trying to work the congregation into some frenzy...which was working. It was utter chaos.

Even as a baby Believer I knew this wasn't right. I still didn't know the Scriptures very well...and I wasn't sure what was right...but this obviously wasn't it.

I'm sure there are charismatic churches that follow propriety in worship and in the gifts. Our church had an after glow service on Sunday Evenings for those who wanted to come together and pray and seek the Holy Spirit. It was such a peaceful time of prayer and I felt the Spirit moving through the fellowship in such a mighty and personal way.


Blessings sister....:hug:

[whatfor]

:wave: Are you going to a local church? Church is important for us in lots of ways - if I had that gift, I'd be finding a church where others spoke in tongues and talk with them (or the Pastor/assistant staff leaders) about it.


Yes I do, and they are very helpful.
Most there pray in tongues and have various other spiritual gifts, sometimes I feel a bit uncomfortable asking.
That is my fault though.

Thanks for the help:hug:

[AllTalkNoAction]

The intension of this Thread is to share SCRIPTURAL foundations of the gifts of the Holy Spirit and to share how they are manifest in lives of Believers.

1Co 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
1Co 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
Paul has previously reasoned with the immature Corinthian church not to have divisions - because they were following men not to take each other to court - because some were doing that
not to fornicate - they were allowing such people to remain in fellowship
not to eat & drink in the meetings - they were allowing that

. . . now he continues on what God wants in meetings (ch. 12) are reasons with them that they know that not all are apostles, & prophets, so why are they all presuming to speak in tongues "in the church".
There is a ministry of speaking in tongues called "the gift of tongues", a sign to visitors. The Corinthians were all acting as one member by all speaking in tongues when they meet, but far from being "spiritual" this misses the main point of meetings which is to give & receive inspiration which can be understood. So, like all my brothers & sisters, I may mor may not receive a gift of tongues, interpretation, prophecy etc in any particular meeting, and I should desire and expect to be used by The Lord.

Sadly many use this passage to teach that you can be a christian and not speak in tongues. In doing so they completely miss the context.

[IisJustMe]

There is a ministry of speaking in tongues called "the gift of tongues", a sign to visitors.This is a manmade teaching, from the last 50-100 years. It is not biblically based. Paul chastised the church at Corinth for abuse of tongues, and warned them in Chapter 13 of the first epistle that that gift, as well as prophecy (direct word of God) and knowledge (of a supernatural nature) were passing away, as they did when the canon was closed. I've repeated that throughout the thread, I'm sure people are getting tired of reading it, but that's the case. With the complete revealed will of God through the written Scripture, and the resulting changed lives from its ministry, the confirmation of God's truth with "signs and wonders" was no longer necessary, nor desirable.

[Cris413]

<snip>
Sadly many use this passage to teach that you can be a christian and not speak in tongues. In doing so they completely miss the context. I do not believe this is correct theology...and I'll just leave it at that.

There are many Believers...Christians...myself included that do not have the gift of tongues and belong to Christ Jesus just the same.

Peace

[whatfor]

I just want to add that I don't think it is a requirement to have the gifts, my wife and I go to the same church and she has had some experiences of her own , but does not speak in tongues or show any other gifts, but is still a Christian.

[Mathetes the kerux]

Ok, I am confused a bit here, or thick.

I pray in tongues, but still don't understand exactly what is mean't by being edified by using them in private prayer.
Maybe I don't understand exactly what edifying is.

I guess I am after a response from those who pray in tongues.
I have experienced some amazing things while praying in tongues.
The thing I still don't understand is some of the feelings/sensations it causes, or God gives as a result of it.
I just can't work out what or why this happens, it can be so overwhelming at times, or give pleasurable sensations, or other times is like overwhelming love.

I know , sorry I can't really explain any better , but has me confused.
Why does this happen, and how if tongues aren't supposed to work as some say?

Also can someone explain how you can abuse using tongues?

Hopefully someone has an answer for me.
Ok abuse . . . using tongues as a badge . . . IE of spiritual maturity/superiority. Using the gift in such a way as to distract or make the practioner more of an issue than what the gift should point to . . . the activity of the Spirit in the edification of the Body.

Tongues are a response of your soul/spirit (whatever you want to call it . . . dichotomists or trichotomists aside) . . . that deep place within in you to God. It is a form of communion . . . and in that sense can often be seen as a form of communication. In this it is HIGHLY edifying for the individual . . . but within the assembly (where there is the potential for non-believers or the unlearned about gifts to enter) in order for others to partake in the blessing of communion between you and God there needs to be an interpretation.

This is the primary function of the gift. There is the secondary function of evangelism . . . but this seems more the exceptional usage than the common. By and large, the overwhelming usage of tongues will be that of a communication TO God than a communication FROM God (ie prayer, praise, song, exaltation etc).

The great range of emotions that you feel are common. Often I feel the overwhelming urge of tongues when the Spirit has brought conviction of sin and I know that the cries of my heart are in lieu of this. It aids in my "formal" repentance . . . it grasps much deeper than just my cognition . . . beyond my mind it rocks my soul.

[AllTalkNoAction]

. . warned them in Chapter 13 of the first epistle that that gift, as well as prophecy (direct word of God) and knowledge (of a supernatural nature) were passing away, as they did when the canon was closed. That is the man-made teaching, popular among "brethren" (formerly "plymouth brethren").

1 Cor 13 speaks of 2 time periods, "now" and "then".
Tongues, prophecy etc remain in the "now" time and will no longer be needed in the "then" time . . .

1Co:13:8: Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
:9: For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
:10: But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
. . .
:12: For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
:13: And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
So, do we see "face to face" now? No!!
Do we know even as we are known? Certainly not!!

So, we are still in the "now" time.

"Then" is when Jesus returns, his faithful will see him face to face and know even as they are known, so tongues, prophecy & words of knowledge will no longer be needed.


. .With the complete revealed will of God through the written Scripture, and the resulting changed lives from its ministry, the confirmation of God's truth with "signs and wonders" was no longer necessary, nor desirable.
I could become a Hare Krisna, follow their moral code, or go and do Volutary Service Overseas among poor people and have a changed life and improved in some respects - many people have done these things.

The written scripture is full of signs, wonders and miracles, that's the nature of God - to do the things no man can do.
You have completely missed the point.
The only scriptures you fulfil are like these:-

2Tm:3:1: This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2: For men shall be . . .
:5: Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

[Mathetes the kerux]

This is a manmade teaching, from the last 50-100 years. It is not biblically based. Paul chastised the church at Corinth for abuse of tongues, and warned them in Chapter 13 of the first epistle that that gift, as well as prophecy (direct word of God) and knowledge (of a supernatural nature) were passing away, as they did when the canon was closed. I've repeated that throughout the thread, I'm sure people are getting tired of reading it, but that's the case. With the complete revealed will of God through the written Scripture, and the resulting changed lives from its ministry, the confirmation of God's truth with "signs and wonders" was no longer necessary, nor desirable.
Hi IIJM . . . did you read my posts about a place to start?

[Nadiine]

Ok abuse . . . using tongues as a badge . . . IE of spiritual maturity/superiority. Using the gift in such a way as to distract or make the practioner more of an issue than what the gift should point to . . . the activity of the Spirit in the edification of the Body.

Tongues are a response of your soul/spirit (whatever you want to call it . . . dichotomists or trichotomists aside) . . . that deep place within in you to God. It is a form of communion . . . and in that sense can often be seen as a form of communication. In this it is HIGHLY edifying for the individual . . . but within the assembly (where there is the potential for non-believers or the unlearned about gifts to enter) in order for others to partake in the blessing of communion between you and God there needs to be an interpretation.

This is the primary function of the gift. There is the secondary function of evangelism . . . but this seems more the exceptional usage than the common. By and large, the overwhelming usage of tongues will be that of a communication TO God than a communication FROM God (ie prayer, praise, song, exaltation etc).

The great range of emotions that you feel are common. Often I feel the overwhelming urge of tongues when the Spirit has brought conviction of sin and I know that the cries of my heart are in lieu of this. It aids in my "formal" repentance . . . it grasps much deeper than just my cognition . . . beyond my mind it rocks my soul.
I'm not sure on how tongues is used in evangelism:scratch: :scratch:

There are 2 types of tongues spoken of in the NT. One is other DIALECTS, the other is the 'ecstatic utterance' which is more of the prayer language gift that must have an interpretor to be understood by others.

The tongues given to the people in Acts 2 were the Dialects/other languages & THAT was definitely used to spread the gospel to other nations as God supernaturally empowered them to break through a language barrier.

I don't quite understand how the other tongues are used for evangelism purposes - at least today in modern cultures.

[Mathetes the kerux]

I'm not sure on how tongues is used in evangelism:scratch: :scratch:

There are 2 types of tongues spoken of in the NT. One is other DIALECTS, the other is the 'ecstatic utterance' which is more of the prayer language gift that must have an interpretor to be understood by others.

The tongues given to the people in Acts 2 were the Dialects/other languages & THAT was definitely used to spread the gospel to other nations as God supernaturally empowered them to break through a language barrier.

I don't quite understand how the other tongues are used for evangelism purposes - at least today in modern cultures.
My own studies have led me to understand that there is ONE gift of tongues that has many applications.

The "evangelism" theory is that the tongue is actually a known human language and it is used to present the Gospel (or other evangelistic content) to people of a language NOT spoken by the evangelist. Like Acts 2 (they say).

Check this though

Tongues in Acts 2 . . .



The first thing to consider is the usage of glwssaiV lalien (speaking in tongues) in historical context. It is widely known that the ecstatic usage of tongues was widely practiced during the time of New Testament (NT) Palestine in the whole Mediterranian due to the so-called mystery religions/cults.

The Pythian and Delphic oracles were known to spout unintelligible prophecies that needed an interpreter when the women were said to be under the influence of a supernatural entity (pagan gods). This provides the usage of profhthV and glwssaiV lalien in Koine history in association with non-human unintelligible speech.

The phrase speaking in tongues, while not necessarily connoting ecstaic speech, does certainly INCLUDE this dimension of usage. Most limited lexicons give very brief and simplisitc overviews of the Koine Greek . . . the best, recognised universally, is G. Kittle's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT). I would suggest a view of the article on glwssa.

The historical concept of the profhthV and their speech and the contrast of the mystical concept of the pnuema verses the nouV pretty much seals the deal that the speech was not of the understanding . . . but from the place within that connected with what extends beyond the understanding. This can be defined as ecstatic.

So lets define ecstatic. A compound verb from ek (out of) and estemi (to stand) making ekstasiV, or literally out of stance . . . it has the connotation of out of NORMAL stance. Hence it has been used in reference to a vision (Acts 10:10) and amazement (Mark 5:42).

Our common conception of ecstatic, someone running around bumping into walls and frothing at the mouth is NOT what is in view . . . hence to read our current colloquial usage is folly. Truly, any gifting or move of the Spirit can be ecstatic if demonstrative enough to cause amazement . . . or even the specially edowed prophetic utterances whose source is not from "normalcy" but the supernatural working of the Spirit. This usage is in view when I say "ecstatic" . . . it is thoroughly biblical and wholesome.

To the text of Acts 2:

We have already established that there is an understanding of ecstatic NON-human language in the usage of the Konie glwssaiV lalien, although not a necessary understanding. The context will have to determine our understanding.

The first concept of import is in the word eterais (other) . . . the clear concept of the word includes something that was different than their normal tongue and something that was altogether new to them. Hence, whatever it was that they spoke . . . it was NOT something that they were familiar with . . . not something that was in their history of personal usage.

The second concept is that the speech was inspired by the pnuema (Spirit). Many studies have overlooked this vital concept. The history of the word is one of mystical and other-worldy usage. It is derrived from the pn a linguistic construct that pointed to the unknown and supernatural representing the rough breath and mystery the ancients associated with breathing and air. Hence, pnuema, connotes a supernatural unknown mysterious feeling.

The connection with pnuema and speech (laleo or cognates) cannot be overemphasized . . . the history of association from Plato and others in Ancient Greek of the mystery of speech inspired by the pnuema carries into the NT with the concept of the Holy Spirit of God. This connection wasn't unqiue to the Greeks . . . Hebrews associated the same mystery as did most ancient cultures.

This background lays the foundation for a type of speech which is obviously supernatural and patently *other* worldy. At this point it may still be known foreign languages supernaturally imparted, however.

The next touchpoint is the use of fonhV (sound). It is singular . . . not plural. That means that when the masses heard what it was that they heard . . . it was ONE loud sound . . . not many variable sounds. The sound of a group not individuals. This leads to the conclusion that what they gathered to was NOT a speech, per se, procession . . . but something much more awkward . . . obtruse.

Here is where the arguement begins to take more form, and from the Greek becomes quite clear. The text will be helpful:

Acts 2:6-8
6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language. Acts
7 They were amazed and astonished, saying, " Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 "And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?
NASU

NASU

The key is the singular and plural usage. "each one" ekstatoV eiV (each man singular) is the men hearing. Each individual heard them (autwn first [v. 6] plural and ekstatoV second [v. 8] SINGULAR) . . . AS A GROUP. The picture is of each man hearing them (plural) as a GROUP (singular). One hears ALL of them speaking in Parthian, while the man next to him hears THE SAME MEN (AS A GROUP) speaking in Mede AT THE SAME TIME . . . and it continues down the line.

Illustration: I am speaking in (whatever) and I have a Mexican, Russian and African all in front of me . . . the Mexican man is hearing me in Spanish, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME the Russian is hearing me in Russian WHILE AT THE SAME TIME the African is hearing me in African.

TDNT sees the sealing issue the Ioudaian (Judean's) as original (meaning it is in the original autographa). As such . . . this means that you have Judeans (local Jews) suprised to hear Judean's (the disciples) speaking Judean! BIG PROBLEMS. The resolution is that they are mystified because everyone is hearing their own dialects coming from the same men at the same time . . . which is physiologically impossible.

The case then becomes more of a miracle of hearing . . . than a miracle of speaking. The miracle is that the men gather at a strange sound, something uncommon (foreign languages are hardly uncommon) and are further dismayed as they are each able miraculously to understand this formerly strange sound in their own dialects AT THE SAME TIME AS THE MAN NEXT TO THEM from the WHOLE GROUP OF DISCIPLES.

Add to this that those who gathered and heard the noise and DID NOT understand accused the disciples of being DRUNK (ever heard a drunk man speak unintelligibly? I have) and you have a pretty solid case that the tongues of Acts 2 were ecstatic unintelligible languages who the Holy Spirit imparted understanding of to the men who would be converted.

This actually fits perfectly with Paul's description of tongues as unintelligible also . . . to which we will turn on Monday . . .

PLEASE REMEMBER EVERYONE . . . this is not a matter of prime importance . . . and we can keep cordiality with one another and not divide for we all hold to the Gospel.

Pax

MTK

[IisJustMe]

NOTE: I edited this to properly attribute a quote out of my own writing in a locally published article to me, having initially attributed it to someone else. My apologies if anyone read it and is now confused, as I obviously was when I first posted this.

Here is the inherent problem I see with most people who insist that the "signs and wonders" gifts are still active. They place an unwarranted premium placed on glossolalia {"speaking in tongues") today. Finally, I am gratified to see even some of the so-called "charismatic" churches backing away from a phenomenon I consider of a much lower source than the Holy Spirit. My own experience in counseling the in Colorado Springs area has developed a disappointment in those counted among the movement.

Professing to be filled with the Spirit of humility and holiness, these persons express the opposite. The subtle but real spiritual conceit become more apparent until the words 'Spirit-filled' come to have a regrettable taint. Other pastors with whom I have talked have had similar experiences. There is often a 'know-it-all' attitude among those who speak in tongues that exactly contradicts what they profess in testimony. They definitely give the impression that those who do not speak in tongues have not 'arrived' spiritually, do not have the sensitivity to interpret the Scriptures, do not have prayer power that can bring results. These persons are insensitive to the concept of Christian discipline. In many of them, habits of worldliness remain while the tongues-speaking flourishes. They are the ones more likely to remain in addiction, adultery, gossiping, even lying and cheating, feeling no conviction whatsoever to repent. They are unteachable. Again the spiritual superiority complex rears its ugly head. The tongues-speakers apparently believe that they know it all.

I really hope and pray that the extremes mentioned here are only characteristic of a minority. However, my statement does reflect the unscriptural importance attached to glossolalia today, and by extension, the so-called gift of prophecy. Disconcerting things are heard in charismatic circles, such as; non-charismatic Christians are not to be raptured but left to endure the "seven-year tribulation." Another example is the following quotation from an address given at the Presbyterian Charismatic Conference by George MacLeod, former moderator of the Church of Scotland and member of the House of Lords.

"Only the charismatic communion in all denominations can hear all that God is saying in this age of the Spirit."

Again I believe and hope and pray that this is a minority view among my charismatic brethren, and from those whom I call "friend" I have seen none of this attitude . Nevertheless, these extremes are symptomatic of the charged atmosphere of partisanship in the Pentecostal and neo-Pentecostal movements indicating a consensus that only glossolalic Christians are "Spirit-filled." Such a position is nonsense. Nothing can be shown biblically to support such an erroneous and dangerously divisive position. Division is not of God, but of our enemy, Satan. There is no room for an attitude of superiority and arrogance in Christian communion and fellowship.

Perhaps my expressed view that the "signs and wonders" gifts have ceased sets some on edge, and I'm willing to admit that I may be wrong. But the attitude fostered among the tongue-speaking, prophecy-issuing charismatics has turned me against these so-called gifts and makes me wonder, what "spirit" really is influencing them? An unwillingness by charismatics to accept that speaking with tongues was the lowest operation of the Spirit in the Church (I Corinthians 12:28) and that non-glossolalic Christians can be equally "Spirit-filled" (I Corinthians 12:30) cast serious doubt on this practice being an operation of the Holy Spirit.

[Mathetes the kerux]

NOTE: I edited this to properly attribute a quote out of my own writing in a locally published article to me, having initially attributed it to someone else. My apologies if anyone read it and is now confused, as I obviously was when I first posted this.

Here is the inherent problem I see with most people who insist that the "signs and wonders" gifts are still active. They place an unwarranted premium placed on glossolalia {"speaking in tongues") today. Finally, I am gratified to see even some of the so-called "charismatic" churches backing away from a phenomenon I consider of a much lower source than the Holy Spirit. My own experience in counseling the in Colorado Springs area has developed a disappointment in those counted among the movement.

Professing to be filled with the Spirit of humility and holiness, these persons express the opposite. The subtle but real spiritual conceit become more apparent until the words 'Spirit-filled' come to have a regrettable taint. Other pastors with whom I have talked have had similar experiences. There is often a 'know-it-all' attitude among those who speak in tongues that exactly contradicts what they profess in testimony. They definitely give the impression that those who do not speak in tongues have not 'arrived' spiritually, do not have the sensitivity to interpret the Scriptures, do not have prayer power that can bring results. These persons are insensitive to the concept of Christian discipline. In many of them, habits of worldliness remain while the tongues-speaking flourishes. They are the ones more likely to remain in addiction, adultery, gossiping, even lying and cheating, feeling no conviction whatsoever to repent. They are unteachable. Again the spiritual superiority complex rears its ugly head. The tongues-speakers apparently believe that they know it all.

I really hope and pray that the extremes mentioned here are only characteristic of a minority. However, my statement does reflect the unscriptural importance attached to glossolalia today, and by extension, the so-called gift of prophecy. Disconcerting things are heard in charismatic circles, such as; non-charismatic Christians are not to be raptured but left to endure the "seven-year tribulation." Another example is the following quotation from an address given at the Presbyterian Charismatic Conference by George MacLeod, former moderator of the Church of Scotland and member of the House of Lords.

"Only the charismatic communion in all denominations can hear all that God is saying in this age of the Spirit."

Again I believe and hope and pray that this is a minority view among my charismatic brethren, and from those whom I call "friend" I have seen none of this attitude . Nevertheless, these extremes are symptomatic of the charged atmosphere of partisanship in the Pentecostal and neo-Pentecostal movements indicating a consensus that only glossolalic Christians are "Spirit-filled." Such a position is nonsense. Nothing can be shown biblically to support such an erroneous and dangerously divisive position. Division is not of God, but of our enemy, Satan. There is no room for an attitude of superiority and arrogance in Christian communion and fellowship.

Perhaps my expressed view that the "signs and wonders" gifts have ceased sets some on edge, and I'm willing to admit that I may be wrong. But the attitude fostered among the tongue-speaking, prophecy-issuing charismatics has turned me against these so-called gifts and makes me wonder, what "spirit" really is influencing them? An unwillingness by charismatics to accept that speaking with tongues was the lowest operation of the Spirit in the Church (I Corinthians 12:28) and that non-glossolalic Christians can be equally "Spirit-filled" (I Corinthians 12:30) cast serious doubt on this practice being an operation of the Holy Spirit.
I am sorry of your encounters. However, this is ad hominem. The errors of others do NOT determine whether the gifts are still active or not . . . as you well know brother.

Let me give you an analogy . . . for I have a disdain for many that call themselves Pentecostal/Charismatic . . . and I is one! (to the point that I cannot be on staff at most P/C churches!)

Say you have two bottles of water . . . pure water. Seal the bottle. Now drag one through muck, garbage, fecal matter . . . etc.

Hold it up . . . looks nasty right? Yeah!

Now say I offer you to drink from one of the two bottles . . . which would you choose?

The lack of sanctification in many P/C's doesn't discount the truth of the Spirit's particular work in them. Spiritual gifts have NEVER been the watermarks for spirituality. And if you discount based on this . . . one is guilty of the exact same error of those who claim that only the gifts of the Spirit are active in the "in crowd" . . . except that your "in-crowd" is spiritual maturity.

I affirm your observations . . . and agree that it is appalling.

It is also possible that Satan is counterfeiting everything he can to try and discredit what is real.

Pax brother,

MTK

[Cris413]

NOTE: I edited this to properly attribute a quote out of my own writing in a locally published article to me, having initially attributed it to someone else. My apologies if anyone read it and is now confused, as I obviously was when I first posted this.

Here is the inherent problem I see with most people who insist that the "signs and wonders" gifts are still active. They place an unwarranted premium placed on glossolalia {"speaking in tongues") today. Finally, I am gratified to see even some of the so-called "charismatic" churches backing away from a phenomenon I consider of a much lower source than the Holy Spirit. My own experience in counseling the in Colorado Springs area has developed a disappointment in those counted among the movement.

Professing to be filled with the Spirit of humility and holiness, these persons express the opposite. The subtle but real spiritual conceit become more apparent until the words 'Spirit-filled' come to have a regrettable taint. Other pastors with whom I have talked have had similar experiences. There is often a 'know-it-all' attitude among those who speak in tongues that exactly contradicts what they profess in testimony. They definitely give the impression that those who do not speak in tongues have not 'arrived' spiritually, do not have the sensitivity to interpret the Scriptures, do not have prayer power that can bring results. These persons are insensitive to the concept of Christian discipline. In many of them, habits of worldliness remain while the tongues-speaking flourishes. They are the ones more likely to remain in addiction, adultery, gossiping, even lying and cheating, feeling no conviction whatsoever to repent. They are unteachable. Again the spiritual superiority complex rears its ugly head. The tongues-speakers apparently believe that they know it all.

I really hope and pray that the extremes mentioned here are only characteristic of a minority. However, my statement does reflect the unscriptural importance attached to glossolalia today, and by extension, the so-called gift of prophecy. Disconcerting things are heard in charismatic circles, such as; non-charismatic Christians are not to be raptured but left to endure the "seven-year tribulation." Another example is the following quotation from an address given at the Presbyterian Charismatic Conference by George MacLeod, former moderator of the Church of Scotland and member of the House of Lords.

"Only the charismatic communion in all denominations can hear all that God is saying in this age of the Spirit."

Again I believe and hope and pray that this is a minority view among my charismatic brethren, and from those whom I call "friend" I have seen none of this attitude . Nevertheless, these extremes are symptomatic of the charged atmosphere of partisanship in the Pentecostal and neo-Pentecostal movements indicating a consensus that only glossolalic Christians are "Spirit-filled." Such a position is nonsense. Nothing can be shown biblically to support such an erroneous and dangerously divisive position. Division is not of God, but of our enemy, Satan. There is no room for an attitude of superiority and arrogance in Christian communion and fellowship.

Perhaps my expressed view that the "signs and wonders" gifts have ceased sets some on edge, and I'm willing to admit that I may be wrong. But the attitude fostered among the tongue-speaking, prophecy-issuing charismatics has turned me against these so-called gifts and makes me wonder, what "spirit" really is influencing them? An unwillingness by charismatics to accept that speaking with tongues was the lowest operation of the Spirit in the Church (I Corinthians 12:28) and that non-glossolalic Christians can be equally "Spirit-filled" (I Corinthians 12:30) cast serious doubt on this practice being an operation of the Holy Spirit.

Excellent post brother! :thumbsup:

I totally understand your concerns here and I share them.

I consider the pride and puffiness of some who claim the gift of tongues...and in particular those who judge the salvation or spirituality of others who do not have the gift is an example of very bad fruit.

We are to judge by the fruit.

It's the same as someone who declairs what a great theologian they are...and they may possess great knowledge...but it's shared in such a way that is disdainful to others and puffs themselves up...

...this is very bad fruit as well.

Another fine example would be those who with hostility and anger...testify of the love of Christ Jesus...

...more bad fruit.

And we go on to fundamental extremists...who do nothing but comdemn and commit hateful acts against those they consider sinful...

...extremely bad fruit

Scripture tells us quite plainly what the fruit of the Spirit is.

Gal 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Gal 5:15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!


Walking in the Spirit
Gal 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

(my blue emphasis for particular points)



So I consider when someone claims this or that...we are not to judge the claims...but the fruit.

Our guideline should be the "walk" not the "talk"

Just as there are fake healers...we should not dismiss the gift of healing.

Just as there are false teachers...we should not dismiss all who teach the truth.

Just as there are false prophets...we should not dismiss the actual pro