To use or not to use His Name

[Tanakh]

is the only husband i can stand to have.

what really upsets me is when a guy and i
hit it off really well until i start talking about the
Torah & he automatically shuts down.


Yahweh wants us to keep His Word.
I will tell you nothing else.
He sure does want us to keep His word and you can start by not using His name!

Granted I am not a "messianic" but are you prepared to follow all the laws of the Torah?

[MyZz]

He sure does want us to keep His word and you can start by not using His name!



Why not?

[Tanakh]

Why not?
It is blasphemous to use His name (especially His true name) at any time. One must show the utmost respect and obedience to that name above all others.

[christinepro]

He sure does want us to keep His word and you can start by not using His name!

Granted I am not a "messianic" but are you prepared to follow all the laws of the Torah? She didn't use his name in vain!

[brideofYeshua]

I know, right. My congregation calls the Lord Yahweh, and it says Yahweh in my Scripture.

[cyberlizard]

take heed everyone, this thread has the potential to derail very easily into the rulings on the Name.

lets try and keep it on track.

[ContentInHim]

It is blasphemous to use His name (especially His true name) at any time. One must show the utmost respect and obedience to that name above all others.
Can you find a scriptural reference where He says not to use His name? Because I can find a few where He says to use His name! Indeed, His name was used by Jews until the end of the Babylonian captivity. :D

Bride of Yeshua - just be patient, live your life and Yahweh will provide a husband for you! He picks very very good ones, also! :)

[Tanakh]

Can you find a scriptural reference where He says not to use His name? Because I can find a few where He says to use His name! Indeed, His name was used by Jews until the end of the Babylonian captivity. :D

Bride of Yeshua - just be patient, live your life and Yahweh will provide a husband for you! He picks very very good ones, also! :)
G-d's true name can never be spoken aloud nor can it be written. The only one who said That name was the High priest and even then he only said it aloud to himself so that not even the other priests could hear him.

Halakhah mandates That name never be used accept when in prayer and then only under certain circumstances. It must NEVER be uttered, ever. If written one must use the transliterated letters which are YHVH. However one should only say or write HASHEM which means "the name" as the true name, YHVH must never be used. One must show the utmost respect to G-d therefore you must never say His real/true name.

Its is written "You shall not take the Name of HASHEM, your G-d, in vain" for if you notice this does not simply refer to a vain oath as the Torah says Lo Sisa, which means You shall not take, instead of Lo Si'shava, You shall not swear. In other words it is also prohibited to use His name carelessly and unnecessarily. You may say how was that done, very easily as anyone can print out these pages and desecrate the pages and if that page as G-d's name on it then it is considered a hillul HASHEM for one must take into consideration all possibilities and that is one of them. Also if you accidently, or on purpose, hit backspace and in turn this deletes G-d's name this is also considered a hillul HASHEM for one must be aware of their actions when using G-d's name. Granted these are only a few examples but this is why HASHEM is used instead of YHVH.

[MyZz]

Tanakh,if we are told not to use his name in vain it then implies that we are going to use it,otherwise we would have been specifically told in written Torah not to utter or speak his name.
One thing that always gets me is that if his name is considered so sacred and oral torah is supposedly so meticulous in preserving things why did the correct pronounciation get lost??:scratch:
And yet another thing and this one is a biggie for me,with all the care that orthodox have over the name. Why do they call YHVH, Hashem,which is a man's name??
I know it refers to Ha Shem the name but in Tanak we do find a man called Hashem in the book of first book of Chronicles chapter 11
34 the sons of Hashem the Gizonite, Jonathan the son of Shageh the Hararite;

I don't have time to look up verses now but I'm sure I will be able to find many where God tells us to call upon HIS name not the name of any other .

[brideofYeshua]

then why is it written so many times in my Bible?

[Tanakh]

then why is it written so many times in my Bible?
Because that is Holy scripture and where does is use YHVH. What Bible publication (version) do you use?

[ChavaK]

why did the correct pronounciation get lost??:scratch:


Perhaps this is the best reason of all not to use it-
we do not know how it is pronounced, and to
mispronounce G-d's name should not be done.
But Messianics are not bound by Jewish law
or interpretations and therefore may do as
they wish, in my opinion....but a Jew may
never use it....
:wave:

[ChavaK]

I know, right. My congregation calls the Lord Yahweh, and it says Yahweh in my Scripture.

But what is the proper pronounciation?
:wave:

[torahgrandma]

then why is it written so many times in my Bible?

I am guessing that you have a sacred name Bible, and the name Yahweh is someones guess name of what YHVH is vocalized as, although that pronunciation is found nowhere in the pointed Hebrew text of the Tenach.

[torahgrandma]

Where did the name “Yahweh” originate from? It was back translated, or retroverted from Greek into Hebrew, and is often referred to as a “scholarly reconstruction”. The pronunciation of Yahweh surfaced in the scholarly circles sometime between the mid to late 1800's. Many who believe that Yahweh is the correct vocalization of the Name YHWH often quote Clement and Theodoret.The testimony of Clement of Alexandria was written around 200 ce. Some copies of the Greek writings of Clement of Alexandria state that the Tetragrammaton was pronounced Iaoue which the scholars retroverted into the supposedly Hebrew Yahweh. Other copies of the Greek writings of Clement state that the Tetragrammaton was pronounced Iaou which was retroverted into Hebrew as Yahu.

A remark from a book written by Theodoret (Quaestiones in Exodum cap. XV) is also used to support the guess pronunciation Yahweh, due to the following quote:

"the name of God is pronounced Iabe"

Theodoret originally made this remark referencing how the Samaritans pronounced the name, and then he added that the Jews pronounced the name as AIA (Ehyeh). Some Samaritans have stated that they used Yapheh (H3303) which means “beautiful” as a substitute place marker for the name so that it would not be uttered. It should be noted that no where in the Hebrew Scriptures is YHWH pointed to be vocalized as Yahweh.

How can Hebrew roots adherents be so adamant about using a guess name that has been termed as a "scholarly reconstruction", which was back translated or retroverted from a Greek rendering of what one early church father thought could be possibly the Samaritan pronunciation (other church fathers had differing pronunciations in Greek and Latin), while these same Hebrew roots adherants are constantly referring to Greek as being a pagan language?

● Diodorus Siculus writes Jao (I, 94);
● Origin ("in Joh.", II, 1, in P.G., XIV, col. 105), Jao;
● the Valentinian heretics (Ir., "Adv. Haer.", I, iv, 1, in P.G., VII, col. 481), Jao;
● Irenaeus ("Adv. Haer.", II, xxxv, 3, in P. G., VII, col. 840), Jaoth;
● Clement of Alexandria ("Strom.", V, 6, in P.G., IX, col. 60), Jaou;
● Epiphanius ("Adv. Haer.", I, iii, 40, in P.G., XLI, col. 685), Ja or Jabe;
● the Samaritans (Theodoret, in "Ex. quaest.", xv, in P. G., LXXX, col. 244), Jabe;
● Pseudo-Jerome ("Breviarium in Pss.", in P.L., XXVI, 828), Jaho;
● James of Edessa (cf.. Lamy, "La science catholique", 1891, p. 196), Jehjeh;
● Porphyry (Eus., "Praep. evang", I, ix, in P.G., XXI, col. 72), Jeuo;
● Jerome ("Ep. xxv ad Marcell.", in P. L., XXII, col. 429) speaks of certain ignorant Greek writers who transcribed the Hebrew Divine name as II I II I (PIPI).

[ContentInHim]

G-d's true name can never be spoken aloud nor can it be written. The only one who said That name was the High priest and even then he only said it aloud to himself so that not even the other priests could hear him.

Halakhah mandates That name never be used accept when in prayer and then only under certain circumstances. It must NEVER be uttered, ever. If written one must use the transliterated letters which are YHVH. However one should only say or write HASHEM which means "the name" as the true name, YHVH must never be used. One must show the utmost respect to G-d therefore you must never say His real/true name.

Its is written "You shall not take the Name of HASHEM, your G-d, in vain" for if you notice this does not simply refer to a vain oath as the Torah says Lo Sisa, which means You shall not take, instead of Lo Si'shava, You shall not swear. In other words it is also prohibited to use His name carelessly and unnecessarily. You may say how was that done, very easily as anyone can print out these pages and desecrate the pages and if that page as G-d's name on it then it is considered a hillul HASHEM for one must take into consideration all possibilities and that is one of them. Also if you accidently, or on purpose, hit backspace and in turn this deletes G-d's name this is also considered a hillul HASHEM for one must be aware of their actions when using G-d's name. Granted these are only a few examples but this is why HASHEM is used instead of YHVH.
Please give me scriptural evidence that we are NOT to use his name. As I said, I can give you scriptural evidence that we ARE to use his name. :wave:

[Henaynei]

Personally I and my DH, who is a Jewish Messianic, do not try to use the Name.... I say "try" because we don't know the proper vowel points and thus the pronunciation... we feel is is vanity to plug in our "best guess" and think that pleases G-d - like most teachers we feel G-d is much more pleased and blessed by an honest "I don't know" than with what could be seen as bluster and bluff ....

[A_Pioneer]

Personally I and my DH, who is a Jewish Messianic, do not try to use the Name.... I say "try" because we don't know the proper vowel points and thus the pronunciation... we feel is is vanity to plug in our "best guess" and think that pleases G-d - like most teachers we feel is is much more pleased and blessed by an honest "I don't know" than with what could be seen as bluster and bluff ....
LOL Amen! My Rabbi says "I don't know and if I did I wouldn't tell you."

If we knew and God was as mean as some portray him to be, we'd all be "Crispy Critters." LOL

Shalom

[Henaynei]

sure - just look what men have done with the names they DO know..... like Jesus, G-d .... I'm sure you all have heard these names used in vain .... I am delighted that the Holy Name has not suffered the same plight ...

[Tanakh]

Perhaps this is the best reason of all not to use it-
we do not know how it is pronounced, and to
mispronounce G-d's name should not be done.
But Messianics are not bound by Jewish law
or interpretations and therefore may do as
they wish, in my opinion....but a Jew may
never use it....
:wave:
The entire world is commanded to follow the 7 laws of Noah and respect for G-d's name is among them. Granted we Jews are commanded to follow all 613 yet the goy must follow the 7 at all times regardless what religion, or lack thereof, that they profess.

[Annalien]

Rabbi at my congregation did a study on this and came to the same conclusion, we just don't know the pronunciation, the names they use in the verses of the bible are not the true name's and like someone mention there is a certain amount of respect and reverence one must have...YHVH is like saying in english ABCD you can't pronounce that, through the years scholars tried to add vowels to those consonants of the holy name...but we just don't know the true name especially reading a version of the bible. In my synagogue we just don't do it.. Plus remember that it's all about who we know G-d is through his word..

just my opinion...

[YahshuaWitness]

Please give me scriptural evidence that we are NOT to use his name. As I said, I can give you scriptural evidence that we ARE to use his name. :wave:
Amen! Blessed be the name of YAHVEH and YAHSHUA!

[YahshuaWitness]

Here is an interesting article.

http://almightywind.com/sacrednames/index.htm

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

G-d's true name can never be spoken aloud nor can it be written. The only one who said That name was the High priest and even then he only said it aloud to himself so that not even the other priests could hear him.

Halakhah mandates That name never be used accept when in prayer and then only under certain circumstances. It must NEVER be uttered, ever. If written one must use the transliterated letters which are YHVH. However one should only say or write HASHEM which means "the name" as the true name, YHVH must never be used. One must show the utmost respect to G-d therefore you must never say His real/true name.

Its is written "You shall not take the Name of HASHEM, your G-d, in vain" for if you notice this does not simply refer to a vain oath as the Torah says Lo Sisa, which means You shall not take, instead of Lo Si'shava, You shall not swear. In other words it is also prohibited to use His name carelessly and unnecessarily. You may say how was that done, very easily as anyone can print out these pages and desecrate the pages and if that page as G-d's name on it then it is considered a hillul HASHEM for one must take into consideration all possibilities and that is one of them. Also if you accidently, or on purpose, hit backspace and in turn this deletes G-d's name this is also considered a hillul HASHEM for one must be aware of their actions when using G-d's name. Granted these are only a few examples but this is why HASHEM is used instead of YHVH. Hmmm, I think I will bite my tounge.

[christianmomof3]

Gen 4:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enosh: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.
Gen 12:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.

Gen 26:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) And he builded an altar there, and called upon the name of the LORD, and pitched his tent there: and there Isaac's servants digged a well.
Ps 116:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=116&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Then called I upon The name of The LORD; O LORD, I beseech Thee, deliver my soul.

Ps 116:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=116&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD.

[Henaynei]

this is one of those questions that will have to wait upon an authorized Messianic Beit Din or upon the return of Messiah, which ever comes first...

Until then there will be those who feel it is blasphemy to use the Name and there are those who feel it is a desecration not to do so.... now granting those are the two poles there is a spectrum (as with most things Messianic :sigh:) that runs the gamut between ...

It seems the course of love and charity to peacefully grant to each their conviction until either of the above circumstances appears, no?

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[debi b]

I recently ran across this entry in Marcus Jastrow's Dictionary of the Targumim, Talmud Babli and Midrashic Literature:

yna reverential transcription of hwhy ana to avoid the utterance of the Tetragrammaton

Just curious if anyone had a comment on it :wave:

[Athaliamum]

Yeshua said that to know the Father is to know the Son.
Why must we know the pronounication of the name of the Father when we know the name of the Son?

God is Echad, therefore we have his name in Yeshua, and in that name and no other, by his own word, is there power.

[fritz300]

Yeshua said that to know the Father is to know the Son.
Why must we know the pronounication of the name of the Father when we know the name of the Son?

God is Echad, therefore we have his name in Yeshua, and in that name and no other, by his own word, is there power.

Yeshua was the Lawgiver
Yeshua was the Rock
Yeshua IS the Mighty One of Israel
Yeshua IS YHVH

[debi b]

I was actually goin' somewhere with my previous post - that is why I was curious.....

It does speak to some of the ways that Yeshua phrased things.

[Henaynei]

I was actually goin' somewhere with my previous post - that is why I was curious.....

It does speak to some of the ways that Yeshua phrased things.I've not seen it - but then the hebrew font is not showing on my system so I've a hard time understanding what hvhy ana is - got the hvhy - it is the ana I'm not sure about ....

[ContraMundum]

Using One name of God is certainly ok- Yeshua.

Act 4:10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead--by him this man is standing before you well.
Act 4:11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.
Act 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
Even in the Tanach, God tells us to call on His name.

Joe 2:32 (3:5) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered; for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as the LORD hath said, and among the remnant those whom the LORD shall call.

So, I guess that pretty much ends any literalist or legalist approach to "not using the Lord's name".

[Henaynei]

if you say so ;)

[ContraMundum]

if you say so ;)

Well, I wasn't trying to speak for those of other Christologies- just the mainstream one. Sorry 'bout that. :sorry:

[Henaynei]

Well, I wasn't trying to speak for those of other Christologies- just the mainstream one. Sorry 'bout that. :sorry: ^_^ lighten up :P

[ContraMundum]

^_^ lighten up :P

OK, I'm jovial now. :D

[Henaynei]

OK, I'm jovial now. :D:thumbsup:

[Vaneeza Malkah]

I believe that a certain amount of arrogance is needed by any biblical scholar who actually believes and teaches the 'true name' of Hashem.

[Ivy]

Arrogance is needed? :scratch: I don't get it.

Here is my boring & irrelevant interpretation: Taking the name of the Lord in vain has a lot more to do with character than just speaking a word. If I say I am a follower of Yeshua, but I act in ways He would never act........well, that's wearing His name without following in the appropriate character suited to the wearing of that name--in vain.

Like if I see a box that has the name Cheerios on it, then I open it, and there are metal washers inside, the box is wearing the Cheerios name in vain.

See, I told you it was boring. :)

[Vaneeza Malkah]

Arrogance is needed? :scratch: I don't get it.

arrogance is needed to consider oneself qualified to know the name, when in reality there are only a handful of men alive who are.


Here is my boring & irrelevant interpretation: Taking the name of the Lord in vain has a lot more to do with character than just speaking a word. If I say I am a follower of Yeshua, but I act in ways He would never act........well, that's wearing His name without following in the appropriate character suited to the wearing of that name--in vain.

Yeshua was a Jew who practiced Judaism relavent to the 1st century and therefore all of christianity does not act in ways he would act...

well more later it's time for me to :bow:

[debi b]

anee/ana is ususally translated (appropriately) as "I" and often with "am" thrown in to make it understandable for English speakers...

One thing nobody has mentioned along the lines of taking the name in vain should be included "misrepresenting" the name - by extension misrepresenting Him.

[visionary]

Anything in His name without faith is in vain.

[Henaynei]

anee/ana is ususally translated (appropriately) as "I" and often with "am" thrown in to make it understandable for English speakers...

One thing nobody has mentioned along the lines of taking the name in vain should be included "misrepresenting" the name - by extension misrepresenting Him.:) ani/anee I knew, but not ana - thanks for the clarification :thumbsup:

[simchat_torah]

My Rabbi says "I don't know and if I did I wouldn't tell you."lol, this post wins the thread.

Give the man a piece of cake.

[Tishri1]

Personally I and my DH, who is a Jewish Messianic, do not try to use the Name.... I say "try" because we don't know the proper vowel points and thus the pronunciation... we feel is is vanity to plug in our "best guess" and think that pleases G-d - like most teachers we feel G-d is much more pleased and blessed by an honest "I don't know" than with what could be seen as bluster and bluff ....the congregation I am at now agrees with this to Henny, and to be a light to the Jews we dont use the name , I have never heard them say it is against the Law to use it though, just a preference not to:thumbsup:

[Henaynei]

well, today it is against no law to displease our parents, yet most would agree it is generally held as a preference not to do so, no?

[debi b]

:) ani/anee I knew, but not ana - thanks for the clarification :thumbsup:

You get those alefs thrown in alot in some Aramaic usages. They can be interchangeable in meaning, although sometimes they indicate an emphatic.

In John 5:2 about the healing at the pool, the name of that pool in KJV is Bethesda, NIV is Bethzatha, in Aramaic is Bet-hesda. This is two words "beth" or house and "cheseda" (with the extra alef) so if we put it into Hebrew it would be "Beth Chesed" :)

So, the name for the hospital Bethesda comes from this - you slur the two words together, eliminate the gutteral "ch" which is hard for English speakers and replace it with a "h" and there you have it.

[Tishri1]

well, today it is against no law to displease our parents, yet most would agree it is generally held as a preference not to do so, no?no I mean a Law of Torah, sure the Rabbinical Practise is not to use the name and to honor that honors our brothers who are Jewish but I have never heard my Rabbi or any MJ Rabbi say that its against the written Torah to speak out or call on the Fathers name, only its respectful to the beliefs of others not to, so I dont:wave:

[A_Pioneer]

lol, this post wins the thread.

Give the man a piece of cake.

Todah, simchat_torah, I have! He knows that I would blab it all over the Net if I knew it! :thumbsup: :wave: :clap:

Not really, but I might be sorely tempted!

Shalom

[Ivy]

arrogance is needed to consider oneself qualified to know the name, when in reality there are only a handful of men alive who are.




OK, well maybe what you mean is, if someone considers themselves qualified to know it, they must be an arrogant person.

[Vaneeza Malkah]

OK, well maybe what you mean is, if someone considers themselves qualified to know it, they must be an arrogant person.
uh no, I don't mean that.
Lets say someone applies for a job as a school principal. Some of the job requirements for being a school principal are a minimum of 5 years work experience as a teacher, a masters degree in education, and two years experience as a vice principal. Now imagine this someone goes into their job interview listing their qualifications: 1 year burger flipper at Macdonalds and two years night shift assistant manager. The interviewer says, 'but sir, you don't meet any of the job requirements, how can you expect me to hire you, you don't even have a bachelor's degree!' and the applicant replies, 'Sir, yes I do have a bachelors degree at the House of Big Mac, I am the all time fastest at flipping burgers for the region, and I studied really really hard to become an assistant manager, not only that but I feel led by G-d to be a school principal.'

Ok well we all know this is rediculous, and it is the same logic that most people use in their 'sacred name' theology.

[A_Pioneer]

uh no, I don't mean that.
Lets say someone applies for a job as a school principal. Some of the job requirements for being a school principal are a minimum of 5 years work experience as a teacher, a masters degree in education, and two years experience as a vice principal. Now imagine this someone goes into their job interview listing their qualifications: 1 year burger flipper at Macdonalds and two years night shift assistant manager. The interviewer says, 'but sir, you don't meet any of the job requirements, how can you expect me to hire you, you don't even have a bachelor's degree!' and the applicant replies, 'Sir, yes I do have a bachelors degree at the House of Big Mac, I am the all time fastest at flipping burgers for the region, and I studied really really hard to become an assistant manager, not only that but I feel led by G-d to be a school principal.'

Ok well we all know this is rediculous, and it is the same logic that most people use in their 'sacred name' theology.
And I read all the writers were on strike!

Way to go Malkah!

Shalom

[Ivy]

OK, I guess it's just an odd use of words to me--since no one *is qualified to know it, no matter how much arrogance they have.

It certainly indicates an arrogant character if they think they know it, but they don't need to be arrogant. The Holy Spirit is there to help people do away with their pride, so I don't think arrogance is in any sense necessary. Arrogance is quite dispensable.