Need a Jewish perspective (open)

[nasa1]

I would like to ask those involved with Judaism (especially reformed or a more liberal Judaism) to please take a look at this site and tell me if you agree with some of the things written here. You do not have to read the second part on page 2.


I would like some input on what this website as to say about who the Jewish people thought the Messiah would be - God coming down as a man, or what did they believe?



Also I would like comments by non-Trinitarian Messianics. This should not turn into a Trinity debate at all , please.

Here is the site: http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=213



Thank you

NASA

[visionary]

Paul declared of Yeshua, " For in Him all the fulness of deity dwells in bodily form' ' (Colossians 2:9).

[visionary]

Philippians 2 5-8:

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

[ORI]

I would like to ask those involved with Judaism (especially reformed or a more liberal Judaism) to please take a look at this site and tell me if you agree with some of the things written here. You do not have to read the second part on page 2.


I would like some input on what this website as to say about who the Jewish people thought the Messiah would be - God coming down as a man, or what did they believe?



Also I would like comments by non-Trinitarian Messianics. This should not turn into a Trinity debate at all , please.

Here is the site: http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=213



Thank you

NASA
Hi,
I glanced over the article that was linked. It seems that the bulk was dealing with Jesus. Despite the “origin” or “role” that he filled this perspective does not reflect a Judaic view regardless of affiliation. The second part of the question may be addressed as follows ; Mashiach ben David will be a man, not a god or demi-god, the Jewish perspective has not changed. The Jew is not as concerned with the “end times” as the Christian or Messianic may be. Of G-d we believe that He can not be embodied – period.
Ori

[ChavaK]

I would like to ask those involved with Judaism (especially reformed or a more liberal Judaism) to please take a look at this site and tell me if you agree with some of the things written here. You do not have to read the second part on page 2.

I am not Reform, and I skimmed the article because it was quite long...


I would like some input on what this website as to say about who the Jewish people thought the Messiah would be - God coming down as a man, or what did they believe?
The author is right when he states "teaching the Jews that G-d came
down in the form of a man would have compeletly offended them....
and contradicted their understanding of messianic scriptures."
This was and still is correct.
His statement that "the Jews would have understood it to mean
a "seed" of a woman who would destroy the works of the Devil"
is incorrect.
Essentially Jews have always understood that the moschiach
will be a human, and will not come to to offer personal
salvation to us. This is a distinctly Christian spin on what
purpose the moshiach serves.....

[A_Pioneer]

A non-trinitarian; I agree with ChavaK and would add that in the Zohar it is stated that the "word"/Alephbet was the first created thing. The NT also says that the "word" (Col 1:15)was the first created thing, the "word became flesh(Joh 1:14) and dwelt among us.
Yeshua says he was sent! If sent there had to be a sender. Yeshua also says you must believe the "Sender" sent him to be saved.(Jn.5:24)
Without adding to scripture as your article states you can't get from Aleph to Tav, the way many try!
However I do not see eye to eye with the article.
I believe as did the Way that Sha'ul was persecuting to death!

Shalom

[nasa1]

Paul declared of Yeshua, " For in Him all the fulness of deity dwells in bodily form' ' (Colossians 2:9).



Yes, but that does not mean that Jesus should be given the title of God, don't you think?

Look at some of the things Jesus said: "My Father is greater than I" or "Go tell my brothers that I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."


I would just like to know: Did the Jewish people believe that the Messiah would be God coming down in the form of a man?

Christianity says yes, but I need to hear from them.

But thans Visionary!

NASA

[nasa1]

I am not Reform, and I skimmed the article because it was quite long...


The author is right when he states "teaching the Jews that G-d came
down in the form of a man would have compeletly offended them....
and contradicted their understanding of messianic scriptures."
This was and still is correct.
His statement that "the Jews would have understood it to mean
a "seed" of a woman who would destroy the works of the Devil"
is incorrect.
Essentially Jews have always understood that the moschiach
will be a human, and will not come to to offer personal
salvation to us. This is a distinctly Christian spin on what
purpose the moshiach serves.....



Well your not reform but I guess you will do! I am not trying to put the conservative Jews into a corner or not heed their advice - as a certain Jewish source said, a wise person will learn from everyone, even their enemy.


But I thank you for the first part of your answer. I just wanted to see if anyone from Judaism would agree.

Now, about your answer: what exactly did Judaism then and now always believe the Messiah would do for mankind? Is He only a Messiah for Jews and converts to Judaism? What would the Messiah do for them? Why did the Messiah need to come anyway, if we can all obtain forgiveness from G_d on our own?
Did they believe the Messiah would have special powers?

NASA

[nasa1]

A non-trinitarian; I agree with ChavaK and would add that in the Zohar it is stated that the "word"/Alephbet was the first created thing. The NT also says that the "word" (Col 1:15)was the first created thing, the "word became flesh(Joh 1:14) and dwelt among us.
Yeshua says he was sent! If sent there had to be a sender. Yeshua also says you must believe the "Sender" sent him to be saved.(Jn.5:24)
Without adding to scripture as your article states you can't get from Aleph to Tav, the way many try!
However I do not see eye to eye with the article.
I believe as did the Way that Sha'ul was persecuting to death!

Shalom



Hello,

I am a heretic. I actually consider myself a Christian-Buddhist now. Wow how the times change. Hey, Jesus is still my Lord and Master and the greatest thing to happen to humanity, but I think G_d speaks to many different people of many different religions and so we should never consider ourselves as the special, annointed group and everyone else lost or on the outside.


Whether its Buddha or Jesus or whatever name, they are all taught by G_d. One day we shall understand things alot better than now, but for now, we should be humble and admit we know practically nothing and not put down other people's religions.



I was asking my friend last night, "Tell me, how many people do you think in Christianity actually have a relationship with the Father YHWH?" Why should they? Why do they need the Father when they have Jesus as their God, their Creator, their Savior and best friend? So the Father is neglected.
Like you said, Jesus was sent, and he was sent to bring mankind back to God the Father.

I really need to know the Father God and true God YHWH.

nasa

[nasa1]

I am not Reform, and I skimmed the article because it was quite long...


The author is right when he states "teaching the Jews that G-d came
down in the form of a man would have compeletly offended them....
and contradicted their understanding of messianic scriptures."
This was and still is correct.
His statement that "the Jews would have understood it to mean
a "seed" of a woman who would destroy the works of the Devil"
is incorrect.
Essentially Jews have always understood that the moschiach
will be a human, and will not come to to offer personal
salvation to us. This is a distinctly Christian spin on what
purpose the moshiach serves.....



Judaism does not teach that there is a devil. right?

You know Ive been wondering about that. I mean, I think that there is an evil entity out there, but to say that this evil entity can tempt all mankind at the same time is ridiculous. I thought only G_d could be everywhere at once!

We should take responsibility for our own evil and not blame it on some evil entity.
NASA

[ChavaK]

Well your not reform but I guess you will do!
Oh, good! I am relieved :D


Now, about your answer: what exactly did Judaism then and now always believe the Messiah would do for mankind? Is He only a Messiah for Jews and converts to Judaism? What would the Messiah do for them? Why did the Messiah need to come anyway, if we can all obtain forgiveness from G_d on our own?
Did they believe the Messiah would have special powers?


Well, given this is a Messianic forum, perhaps it
would be best to post these questions over in
the NCR section, specificaly in Kosher Judasim,
if you would like a Jewish response.......I am
not sure it is proper to discuss issues such
as these here....

[visionary]

Oh, good! I am relieved :D



Well, given this is a Messianic forum, perhaps it
would be best to post these questions over in
the NCR section, specificaly in Kosher Judasim,
if you would like a Jewish response.......I am
not sure it is proper to discuss issues such
as these here....That can be arranged if you would like.

[nasa1]

Sure, just give me a link to where the new discussion is.


NASA

[visionary]

This thread will be closed for the move. There will be a link set up here for two weeks for those interested in the continuation of the conversation.

[DeaconDean]

Duck Doggers of the 24th and a Half Century!


OK, here's the deal. This thread has been moved here due to the controversal nature of this discussion.

I do not need to remind you that all the rules of the forum are still in place here.

Being as since this is the debate section, this thread does not necessarilly qualify as a debate.

Nevertheless, you may debate/discuss this issue for one (1) month from today, at which time, this thread will be closed. no ifs, no ands, no buts.

Please be respectful of each other.

Remember, these are our Jewish brethren and sisters. They had to come to Christ the same as we did. Our convictions may be different, but at the foot of the cross, we all are equal.

Be respectful.

Before this thread is re-opened, I want to take this time to remind all of us of the words the Apostle Paul wrote:

"Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man." -Col. 4:6 (KJV)

I will now re-open this thread.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[nasa1]

Ok, I guess we are back in business.


Chazak: I will ask you some questions and hope fully you can give me some answers but its ok if you cannot answer all of them. I am trying to understand how Jesus became to be looked at as God, so I am wanting to know how Jewish people felt about the Messiah, and maybe a few more things.




1. Did the Jewish people believe that the Messiah would be God in the flesh?


2. Why did Israel need a Messiah?


3. Was this Messiah for everyone or for just those in the religion of Judaism?



4. If we can obtain forgiveness from G_d ourselves then why is there a need for a Messiah?


5. Did some rabbis believe that reincarnation was possible?




Ok that's all for now!

Thank you, NASA

[ChazakEmunah]

Ok, I guess we are back in business.


Chazak: I will ask you some questions and hope fully you can give me some answers but its ok if you cannot answer all of them. I am trying to understand how Jesus became to be looked at as God, so I am wanting to know how Jewish people felt about the Messiah, and maybe a few more things.
I almost missed this thread. I will try to answer your questions as best as possible.




1. Did the Jewish people believe that the Messiah would be God in the flesh?
No, and we still don't believe that the Mashiakh will be G-d. There are several places in the Tanakh where G-d specifically states that he is not a man. {See Numbers 23:19 and Hoshea 11:9} Further, the Tanakh tells us that no-one can see G-d and live (can't remember the exact reference). We firmly believe that the Mashiakh will be a man just like everyone else.


2. Why did Israel need a Messiah?
We still do. The Mashiakh will bring about the complete redemption by defeating our enemies, re-gathering all the exiles to Israel, and re-building the Beit HaMikdash.


3. Was this Messiah for everyone or for just those in the religion of Judaism?
The reign of Mashiakh will benefit everyone. As Jews, we pray 3 times a day, "b'yom haHu yiyeh HaShem ekhad u'shmo ekhad." "On that day HaShem will be One and his name will be One." This is a direct reference to the spreading of the Torah from Yerushalayim to all the goyim during the time of Mashiakh. If everyone in the world were to live by the principles of the Torah, love of HaShem and love of one's fellow, then we would have tikkun olam (a perfected world, ie... complete peace).


4. If we can obtain forgiveness from G_d ourselves then why is there a need for a Messiah?
It is not the responsibility of the Mashiakh to obtain forgiveness for our sins. It is our own responsibility. We do this through t'shuva (returning to the Torah), tefillah (sincere prayer), and tzedakah (giving to charity).



5. Did some rabbis believe that reincarnation was possible?
Actually many Chasidim today believe in reincarnation. Basically a n'shoma (soul) is reincarnated when they haven't completed their tikkun (perfection). Once their tikkun is complete, they no longer re-enter our world. This is why there is a Sefer Chaim and a heavenly Beit Din, so that when a body dies, their soul ascends to the upper world and is judged based on what they did during their life on Earth.



Ok that's all for now!

Thank you, NASA
No problem. I hope that answers your questions. :)

[nasa1]

Hello, thanks for answering my questions.

Did any ancient sages or Jewish teachers believe in reincarnation?



Also, you said If everyone in the world were to live by the principles of the Torah, love of HaShem and love of one's fellow, then we would have tikkun olam (a perfected world, ie... complete peace).


Is this possible when mankind are such sinners? Even David said that no one is righteous, so obviously keeping the Torah perfectly is out of the question - so how can we have peace? Also, some of the commandments of the Torah are, in my opinion, not inspired by G_d but are only the commandments of Moses. That aside, when the Torah teaches to kill people who do wrong, how can that bring peace or justice to this world? Even Ghandi said, "An eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind."



You also said: "It is not the responsibility of the Mashiakh to obtain forgiveness for our sins. It is our own responsibility. We do this through t'shuva (returning to the Torah), tefillah (sincere prayer), and tzedakah (giving to charity)."

Couldn't we say, though, that it is the blood of innocent animals that provide for forgiveness, and not we ourselves?


I guess I still do not understand why Israel needs a savior. What does Israel need to be saved from?
Why can't Israel save herself?

NASA

[GerTzedek]

nasa:

I want to point out that the Jewish idea of reincarnation is quite different from that of Hinduism and Buddhism. First off, most Jews do not believe in reincarnation, but for those that do, the souls were always born as human beings (there are only a couple of folktales of i.e. the dog that read Torah, and the like, which are far outside the norm). Secondly, it has nothing, NOTHING to do with karma or reaching enlightenment or nirvana. For example, a great sage would still transmigrate. Remember how they were asking John the Baptist if he were Elijah? Third, in the Hindu/Buddhist worldview, form is illusion; your "soul" doesn't REALLY exist as such, and when you finally realize it, you will remerge with the divine. Judaism believes in the reality of the soul.

Take it from someone who has studied Buddhism, and has great admiration for it; it may contain a good deal of truth, but there are some things about it which are incompatible with Judaism and Christianity. In order to adopt it and merge it synchretistically, you will find you have to modify either the Buddhism, or your Christianity, or both.

So what made you suddenly develop an interest in Buddhism and reincarnation?

[DeaconDean]

What we got here is... failure to communicate.


Ladies and Gentilemen, according to the rules, this thread has run its due course of time, it will at this time be closed for further debate/discussion.

God Bless

Till all are one.