Jews attacked by errant "skin-head"? Christians

[LittleLambofJesus]

Did anyone see read about this event? Someone posted it on the GA "den of heathens" board. Sigh.

http://christianforums.com/t6582507-wishing-others-a-happy-hanukka-instead-of-merry-christmas-is-worthy-of-an-beating.html

"A Muslim boy is being touted as a "hero" after he saved a group of young Jewish subway-goers from a brutal beating by a gang of Christian thugs in New York, press reports said Wednesday.

The incident took place last Friday night, when 23-year old Jewish man, Walter Adler, boarded a New York subway train with three female friends.

According to Adler, someone in another group wished them "Merry Christmas" and he and his friends replied, "Happy Hanukkah."

Soon, the group of about 14 Christian men and women attacked the Jewish group, calling them "dirty Jews" and "Jew bit***s," the New York Post reported. One member of the group allegedly yelled, "Oh, Hanukkah. That's the day that the Jews killed Jesus," she said.

[Texasbluebonnet]

No! Nuh-uh. That's so horrible. I am ashamed that they dare call themselves "Christians" ! That is just sickening. How aweful :(

[Henaynei]

in general, any high profile Christian holiday is a good time for Jewish folk to exercise low profile descretion - shouldn't be so, not in US, but is often so ....

[Texasbluebonnet]

in general, any high profile Christian holiday is a good time for Jewish folk to exercise low profile descretion - shouldn't be so, not in US, but is often so ....

You're right. It shouldn't be that way. Especially in America. This whole thing is so sad :( :cry: . We should pray that hearts and minds are changed. I know this makes God sad too.

[HadassahSukkot]

in general, any high profile Christian holiday is a good time for Jewish folk to exercise low profile descretion - shouldn't be so, not in US, but is often so ....
You are so right. I played things so low key where I lived, but I did say Happy Hanukkah in stores if someone wished me merry Christmas and it was that time of year...

It is amazing how sometimes people just "turn" like rabid dogs..

[zaksmummy]

I find it amazing that no one attacks Italians for their ancestors role in the death of Yeshua

[LittleLambofJesus]

I find it amazing that no one attacks Italians for their ancestors role in the death of YeshuaTo be honest, I don't think JESUS ever condemned those "gentiles" the corrupt Jewish Priesthood handed JESUS over to. Thoughts?

John 19:11 Answered the JESUS, "Not thou are having authority according of Me. If not-no no was having been given thee from Above. Thru this, the one-beside giving Me to thee greater Sin is having,

Luke 23:31 That if in the moist wood/ xulw <3586> these-things they are doing, in the Dry/xhrw <3584>, what may be becoming/genhtai <1096> (5638)?

Revelation 16:16 And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks: Be ye falling upon us! and hide Ye us! from face of the One-sitting upon the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb-kin

[Wags]

Are you purposefully missing the point zaksmummy was making? :confused:

Yeshua said that he chose to lay down his life and that he forgave those invovled in his death. But to this day Jews are attacked and called "Christ-killers". So why don't folks attacked Italians? Afterall the Romans could have called the whole thing off and they did the actual execution. But the hatred is reserved for all Jews - the family of Yeshua.

[cyberlizard]

i think the post raised by zaksmummy is an extremely good one and shows first hand the bias and hatred of the jewish people simply for being that.

Steve

[Torah]

I find it amazing that no one attacks Italians for their ancestors role in the death of Yeshua
zaksmummy no one attacks Italians because all Italians and in the Mafia. ;)

[Colabomb]

You realize of course these people are fringe, unChristian, and most of us Gentile Christians condemn the action right?

[judahsgem]

You realize of course these people are fringe, unChristian, and most of us Gentile Christians condemn the action right?

Well, I would sure hope everyone here realizes the majority of Christians would never dream of attacking anyone (Jew or not) in this manner.
I would, personally, never consider these folks Christians either, looking at their actions alone, but only God knows their hearts. But I would never even dream of defending such things as attacking anyone of other beliefs and think it's sad that Jewish people should have to keep a low profile here in America, around the holidays, just to avoid such sick craziness...sad indeed.:crosseo:

[Torah]

I understand what some of you are saying. I would like to point out something here, throughout history many people sitting in pews in Churches and in the name of Christ have done many things worst than beatings to the Jew.

ANTISEMITISM IN HISTORY: FROM THE CRUCIFIXION OF CHRIST TO 1400
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007170 (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007170)


Persecution by Christians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_jews)


On the Jews and Their Lies, Martin Luther (1483 - 1546)

http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm (http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies)

Become a Christian and eat what ever you want, give up those Jewish Holidays, the 7th day Shabbat, ect.....


Is it a wonder most Jews don’t trust Christians.

[Colabomb]

I understand what some of you are saying. I would like to point out something here, throughout history many people sitting in pews in Churches and in the name of Christ have done many things worst than beatings to the Jew.

ANTISEMITISM IN HISTORY: FROM THE CRUCIFIXION OF CHRIST TO 1400
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007170 (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007170)


Persecution by Christians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_jews)


On the Jews and Their Lies, Martin Luther (1483 - 1546)

http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm (http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies)

Become a Christian and eat what ever you want, give up those Jewish Holidays, the 7th day Shabbat, ect.....


Is it a wonder most Jews don’t trust Christians.

:doh:

Most of us are Gentiles, we never had those things anyway.....

[zaksmummy]

zaksmummy no one attacks Italians because all Italians and in the Mafia. ;)
LOL

They'd probably hit em over the head with a mouldy pizza!

[JacktheCatholic]

You realize of course these people are fringe, unChristian, and most of us Gentile Christians condemn the action right?

As a "Jewish" Christian I would condemn it as well. ;)

[Ivy]

I find it amazing that no one attacks Italians for their ancestors role in the death of Yeshua

I agree.

[Colabomb]

I find it amazing that no one attacks Italians for their ancestors role in the death of Yeshua

I don't know ANYONE who holds modern day Jews responsible for the Death of Christ.

Christian Theology (as you all know) teaches that Jesus offered himself up, no one "murdered" Jesus.

Any logical Christian should realize that modern day Jews (or italians) had absolutely NOTHING to do with this. And i would come to believe that Christianity does not breed antisemetism, rather that antisemites use Christianity as an excuse.

[Tangeloper]

I read through some of the other thread, and they brought up a very interesting point;

Did this "gang" SELF-IDENTIFY as Christians, or was this an assumption on the part of the media in an attempt to sell papers? We MUST remember that the media in our world today for the most part could care less about "getting it right" and instead focuses on the "bottom-line" or what is going to sell papers...

As for this group of so-called "Christians". Either they do not understand the Gospel, their faith at all, or they have unfortunately been influenced by prejudices perhaps within their own families... As some pointed out -- this is not exactly "new" -- although it is still horrific and sad.

TORAH: I understand that you are trying to inform people by pointing out that the "church" and members of the church have done far worse things to Jews throughout history...
However, again it is a case of people taking the actions of a few -- or the actions of ancestors in this case -- and holding it against others for things they had no part in... What you are doing is in fact, no different. Can we understand why the Jewish population may be fearful of Christians -- yes, especially as the Holocaust was only a couple generations ago. I would just ask you to please remember that many, many Christians died at the hands of Nazis trying to PROTECT the Jews in their communities from the evil practices of those who sought to kill them... In fact, a part of my husband's family from Poland (who didn't immigrate in the early 1900s), were killed at the hands of Nazis for hiding a Jewish family on their farm for over a year... A mother, her 4-year-old child, and the father... All shot dead in their home. Please remember this the next time you are fearful of a "Christian". Those who would do these things have NO understanding of Jesus, the Gospel, etc...

And, dare I say -- yes, not really "TRUE" Christians as the L-rd says we are known by our fruits -- these people are not Christian by that definition, IMHO. There are the righteous and UN-righteous in EVERY group in the world.

[Tangeloper]

I don't know ANYONE who holds modern day Jews responsible for the Death of Christ.

Christian Theology (as you all know) teaches that Jesus offered himself up, no one "murdered" Jesus.

Any logical Christian should realize that modern day Jews (or italians) had absolutely NOTHING to do with this. And i would come to believe that Christianity does not breed antisemetism, rather that antisemites use Christianity as an excuse.
As for the whole "Jews killed Jesus" attitude... This is such a sad unfortunate thing that Christians have believed... Where it came from, who pushed it -- I don't know -- but it's wrong, DEAD WRONG!!!

If anything it was the Sanhedrin. They whipped the mob up into a frenzy to the point where they feared Yeshua more than a known killer! Why were they fearful of Yeshua? Because he sought to expose some of the hypocrisy that is in EVERY church or religious organization in the WORLD! (Again, speaking of the righteous and unrighteous in every religion).

Even a secularist could see how a "Legal" body such as the Sanhedrin could feel a threat to their power within the Jewish community. The Romans, such as Pontius Pilate, who carried out the sentence were also trying to keep their "power" over the people in acquiescing to the Sanhedrin's request. It was all about the POWER of MEN trying to subvert the power of the L-rd, frankly. And, has nothing to do with Romans/Italians/Jews at all -- humans are humans -- and our instincts towards power and greed are still there no matter what we call ourselves.

I think the best example of what Christians should believe in this case was what Jesus himself said, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do"... This was NOT said JUST about the Romans who crucified him, but EVERYONE who had a hand in his death. At least that's how I was always taught.

I do believe it's all an excuse for anti-Semitism, and anti-Christianity. What we should ALL realize at this point in time however, is that there are BIGGER threats to BOTH of our religions at this point... I would hope that as servants of G-d we could come together to stand up against those who would persecute anyone for their religious beliefs.

[Wags]

I don't know ANYONE who holds modern day Jews responsible for the Death of Christ.

Christian Theology (as you all know) teaches that Jesus offered himself up, no one "murdered" Jesus.

Any logical Christian should realize that modern day Jews (or italians) had absolutely NOTHING to do with this. And i would come to believe that Christianity does not breed antisemetism, rather that antisemites use Christianity as an excuse.


It happens all the time - right here at CF! According to many "christian" posters (inlcuding a few former mods) Jews are the main source of all the worlds problems.

Are they being logical - no, are they "really christians" probably not. Do very many of the "true christians" stand up to them and point out the error of their rantings. Unfortuatnely the answer is a resounding NO!

[Henaynei]

It happens all the time - right here at CF! According to many "christian" posters (inlcuding a few former mods) Jews are the main source of all the worlds problems.

Are they being logical - no, are they "really christians" probably not. Do very many of the "true christians" stand up to them and point out the error of their rantings. Unfortuatnely the answer is a resounding NO! all that is VERY true!:sigh:

[Colabomb]

It happens all the time - right here at CF! According to many "christian" posters (inlcuding a few former mods) Jews are the main source of all the worlds problems.

Are they being logical - no, are they "really christians" probably not. Do very many of the "true christians" stand up to them and point out the error of their rantings. Unfortuatnely the answer is a resounding NO!


Heh, i say, before all present, Jew/Gentile, Christian/Non Christian, male/female, child/adult:

Jews are not responsible for all the problems in this world, The Death of Jesus or anything else a nutbar conspiracy theorist may say.

Satisfied?

Honestly, i think the reason most people don't bother to rebut antisemitic crackpots is because they are just that, crackpots. If you were walking down the street and some guy was screaming "There are aliens in my brain" would you take the time to debate the topic with them?

I'm really starting to wonder if the posters on this part of the site really do hold some conspiracy theory that we are all out to get Jews.:doh:

[Wags]

If you were listening to sermon where the pastor said that Jews were the cause of all the evil in this world and the halocaust was G-d punishing them for what they did to Jesus - what would you do? Would ignore it and chalk it up to him being a crack pot?

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

[Colabomb]

If you were listening to sermon where the pastor said that Jews were the cause of all the evil in this world and the halocaust was G-d punishing them for what they did to Jesus - what would you do? Would ignore it and chalk it up to him being a crack pot?

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

I've spent years in VARIOUS Christian circles, Evangelical, Pentecostal, fundementalist, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican and Lutheran.

And I've never heard such a sermon. EVER.

The closest thing i've ever seen is reports that Fred Phelps has said things along those lines. But I have publicly criticized Phelps in the past as being an antichrist, and you can hardly call fred phelps mainstream Christianity.

Do you honestly think if you go down to your local, say, methodist Church you are going to hear sermons preaching about the holocaust as an instrument of God's Wrath?

In what "Church" environment have you been exposed to such things that make you feel as if they are commonplace?

[Henaynei]

just because YOU've never heard it or seen it ..... doesn't mean it does not happen, and happen more than you think it does....

the experience on this forum alone is ample example that this attitude is alive and well in a great many places and people ... in addition I too have heard similar things preached from a few mainstream pulpits ... plus TONS of what one (on *this* side of anti-semitism) might chose to charitably call "unconscious anti-semitism" from pulpit, well-known televangelists, bible groups as nauseum .... sometimes one has to be target to notice the arrows .... when you are not the target arrows generally will go unnoticed and even the "bullets" usually will too ... the blast being mistaken for a "backfire" (i.e. inadvertent slip) rather than the actual report of the shot....

And do yourself a favor.... don't come back with a bit about Jewish people being too sensitive ... it will not serve you well ....

[Tangeloper]

If you were listening to sermon where the pastor said that Jews were the cause of all the evil in this world and the halocaust was G-d punishing them for what they did to Jesus - what would you do? Would ignore it and chalk it up to him being a crack pot?

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)
Just a quick reply to this...

I grew up in the Catholic Church, and I have NEVER heard people say things of this sort -- besides bigots and racists outside of church -- and I certainly NEVER heard this view expressed by any part of the clergy or the nuns in my church.

If I ever heard a pastor/priest, etc... start railing on Jews within a church service I would stand up, gather my family and walk out in the middle of the service. If my anger remained under control I may attempt to say something -- to stand up against this person, but many times my anger gets in the way of being able to come up with something to say until later on when I calm down. As I said though I have never personally heard ANY pastor or clergy member express this viewpoint. All of the sermons I've ever heard were about FORGIVENESS, and how wrong stereotypes and prejudices were -- particularly those who have led to the deaths of innocent people.

I have heard of the "crackpots" who blame all the Jews in our world for almost everything imaginable (i.e. Banks, Hollywood, etc.. etc...). But, the thing is that most of these so-called Christians say some of the same things about Catholics as well...

And, incidently it was not within "Christian" circles that this view was popular, but a VERY miniscule part of the political environment. I remember back when I lived in Colorado a good friend whose campaign I was working on at the time and I went to a gun show... In the lobby was a couple who claimed to be Christian who were passing out leaflets that said the things you alluded to -- that everything was the Jews fault. As you can imagine it was interesting when they approached my friend and I... We politely listened to their little spiel, and when they asked us what we thought... She pulled out her necklace with the Star of David on it, and I pulled out my necklace with the crucifix. We put our arms around each other and I said, I was raised Catholic, and my best friend here is a Jew. Would you like to repeat what you just said knowing that? Needless to say they were mortified! The looks on their faces were priceless. They ran off to try to peddle their conspiracy theories elsewhere and she and I just started laughing at the ridiculousness of it all... Yes, there are those out there within the community of Christianity that blame Jews -- but they are bigots and racists pure and simple. It has nothing to do with their claimed religion. I've seen atheists against ALL religions, and surely they are not acting on some ancient event for their prejudices and scorn...

ANYONE, be they Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Atheist, Agnostic etc... who would persecute someone for their ethnicity, religious beliefs, etc... is NOT RIGHTEOUS no matter what they label themselves... This is not about GROUPS of people, but rather INDIVIDUALS who buy into the racism and prejudices they have been taught. I don't know why some such as myself see through it, and others don't, but it happens.

I would hope that here at CF we could nip this sort of thing in the bud though.

No-one should be showing disrespect for another group of people no matter what they call themselves... One should base judgement on someone's actions and deeds, and leave the rest up to our L-rd to sort out.

This whole subject really gets me, as I see things from both sides on this issue. Being an adoptee I have no known family heritage -- I know not what ethnicity I am. Therefore, it's rather hard for me to be prejudiced against ANY group for I could be a member of that group itself! Perhaps that, and growing up with a bigot as a father who I realized was an idiot and an utter fool, helped contribute to my strong feelings on this... I regularly stood up against his bigoted and racist views, and I paid dearly for it (he was an abuser as well, and I regularly got hit for telling him how wrong he was). However, I KNEW I was right and he was wrong -- and THAT incidentally was what I was taught in CHURCH by the priests and nuns. That people like my father were NOT following the words of Jesus. That he was NOT righteous by any stretch of the imagination, and that he would pay dearly for his views when his time on Earth ends.

Not all people ignore bigotry and racism. And, as Christian, and a gentile, I would just hope that the Jewish people among us would realize that we are not ALL against them, or out to get them. I'm hearing a lot of what could perhaps be termed "reverse racism" in this thread, and the other one about the problems with a boy and his father's family. I find that very sad indeed. Nothing is accomplished when those who feel slighted turn back and do the same to others. Understandable as far as a very human response to anger and bitterness, yes of course, I get it. But, understandable as a RIGHTEOUS thing to do??? Definitely NOT, and I think it goes against EVERYTHING we've ALL been taught about G-d's Grace.

[Tangeloper]

just because YOU've never heard it or seen it ..... doesn't mean it does not happen, and happen more than you think it does....

the experience on this forum alone is ample example that this attitude is alive and well in a great many places and people ... in addition I too have heard similar things preached from a few mainstream pulpits ... plus TONS of what one (on *this* side of anti-semitism) might chose to charitably call "unconscious anti-semitism" from pulpit, well-known televangelists, bible groups as nauseum .... sometimes one has to be target to notice the arrows .... when you are not the target arrows generally will go unnoticed and even the "bullets" usually will too ... the blast being mistaken for a "backfire" (i.e. inadvertent slip) rather than the actual report of the shot....

And do yourself a favor.... don't come back with a bit about Jewish people being too sensitive ... it will not serve you well ....
Before you reply to me with the same answer as you did to Colabomb, I just want to say that none of what I wrote above implies that I don't realize it happens in our world... I wonder if the reason some Christians are so quiet about the subject is because it is truly embarrassing that Christians would act like this? I don't know, and I don't know how to stop the racism and bigotry in our world today. All I know is that ANYONE who behaves in this manner is NOT going to gain the favor of our L-rd.

[Henaynei]

you are quite right - it does indeed happen in this world ... and not just by those who would be recognized as bigots or racists ... and rarely *just* for being Jews, but because the "Jews killed Yeshua" and/or "are rejected and permanently cut off from G-d forever because they didn't accept Him the first time ..." and there are a distressing and mind boggling number of "Christians" on these forums who truly and fully believe and defend the idea

[Tangeloper]

you are quite right - it does indeed happen in this world ... and not just by those who would be recognized as bigots or racists ... and rarely *just* for being Jews, but because the "Jews killed Yeshua" and/or "are rejected and permanently cut off from G-d forever because they didn't accept Him the first time ..." and there are a distressing and mind boggling number of "Christians" on these forums who truly and fully believe and defend the idea

You're right that they wouldn't necessarily be recognized as bigots and racists, although it truly seems that they are behaving in that manner...

As for the theological mindset of those who believe that G-d has abandoned Israel because they denied Jesus... I think it may indeed be a very unfortunate train of thought that arose from some of the more distasteful events of the past. I don't understand how people like this can justify being mean to Jews though -- I mean that still goes against everything else in Scripture... The whole thing about love for our neighbors, especially those who aren't Christian. Wanting people to come to know Jesus is a good thing -- persecuting them based on one's personal theology -- NOT GOOD!!! :doh:

There are other issues that seem to closely mirror some of these attitudes -- views on sickness and illness in relation to sin, etc... The thing is that the L-rd teaches us to love our neighbors and our enemies. To come to them with LOVE. No-one has ever been led to a truly fruitful fulfilling relationship with our L-rd through anger, fear, shame or persecution. When these things are done in the name of religion it reminds me that it is totally akin to taking the L-rd's name in vain! That is why I don't understand Christians who would not LOVE the Jewish people, no matter what they feel about their position in the L-rd's kingdom. Surely nothing else in the Bible says we are to treat others in this way no matter what their beliefs.

The only thing I would like to ask, is that among those who feel the L-rd cut off his grace from Israel -- are they advocating violence and persecution? Or, are they warning about what happens to those who don't accept our L-rd Jesus Christ? I think there is a big difference between theological beliefs and racism and bigotry. The two may intertwine somewhat in people, but I don't think merely holding that theological belief automatically makes you a racist and a bigot does it?

(Oh, and just for the record, I don't believe G-d has cut himself off from Israel, or that they have cut themselves off from G-d either...)

This is all just so sad... Our world is truly such a mess!!!

[Wags]

Aug 15, 2007
The Presbyterian Church on Friday warned four US companies to stop providing military equipment and technology to Israel for use in the occupation of the Palestinian territories, or else face a vote by the Church to divest its stock in them.

The Episcopal Church of U.S.A., the United Church of Christ, two regions of the United Methodist Church, as well as international groups like the World Council of Churches and the Anglican Consultative Council have all urged similar economic boycotts of Israel.

You can read the full article here. (http://www.christiantoday.com/article/us.presbyterian.church.warns.companies.to.boycott.israel.or.face.divestment/3647.htm)

Some have gone beyond boycotting Israel to ACTIVELY supporting those that wish to destroy her. Given the scope of those "chrsitians" involved in this, it really isn't a stretch to figure out why Jews might be little leary of "christians".

[Tangeloper]

Some have gone beyond boycotting Israel to ACTIVELY supporting those that wish to destroy her. Given the scope of those "chrsitians" involved in this, it really isn't a stretch to figure out why Jews might be little leary of "christians".

This is why politics and religion don't mix well, frankly. These churches are bowing to the political pressure of their liberal members... It has nothing to do with religious views, IMO.

Given the views regarding the war on terror among the majority of liberals in our country and other countries nowadays is it any wonder why they would try this sort of economic warfare against those standing up for Israel? I don't see it as evidence of pure anti-Semitism, but rather as proof of irrational politically motivated viewpoints, and distress at the violence in our world today.

[Colabomb]

Some have gone beyond boycotting Israel to ACTIVELY supporting those that wish to destroy her. Given the scope of those "chrsitians" involved in this, it really isn't a stretch to figure out why Jews might be little leary of "christians".


Firstly, i support the existence of Israel as a state, because it is a democratic republic in the middle east. Although, like all states it has its flaws, i believe it is a good example to follow, and perhaps in time the nut bars in the surrounding region will see the good in the Israeli form of Government and follow suit.

There are ORTHODOX JEWS, who claim that to build a state before the coming of the Messiah is blasphemy, Are they antisemitic?

Many Christians support Israel, by Supporting the Jewish People, by loving the jewish people, by Defending the Jewish people. However many see "Israel" as a secular state.

Is disagreeing with what they view as a secular state "Antisemetism"?

I am not sure where i stand religiously (i've already said i support Israel politically) on the issue of Israel. However, if you cannot divorce political disagreement from religious Racism.....


Just because YOU tie Political Israel with The Jewish People, doesn't mean everyone has to.

Including other Jews mind you.

[Colabomb]

you are quite right - it does indeed happen in this world ... and not just by those who would be recognized as bigots or racists ... and rarely *just* for being Jews, but because the "Jews killed Yeshua" and/or "are rejected and permanently cut off from G-d forever because they didn't accept Him the first time ..." and there are a distressing and mind boggling number of "Christians" on these forums who truly and fully believe and defend the idea

You havn't realized of course that The Internet tends to attract the Crazies?

[Colabomb]

just because YOU've never heard it or seen it ..... doesn't mean it does not happen, and happen more than you think it does....

Sister, due to a constant search in my youth (a search that has finally found me a home in the Anglican Tradition), I have seen the entire Rainbow of mainstream Christianity. I have Never seen Antisemitism in the Pulpit. Rather I have seen in a Few Churches Gentiles imitating Jewish worship because of an almost obsessive interest in the Jewish people. Even the Most LIBERAL Churches i have seen only Claim that Jews are like everyone else in the New Covenant (No I am not one of these), but never have I heard anything BAD about Jews.

the experience on this forum alone is ample example that this attitude is alive and well in a great many places and people ...The internet attracts crazies due to the anonymity they can have here. Sure, a lot of Anti semitic Nutbars are going to sound off in a place where they dont' have to face the consequences of the BS they spout.

Are you really telling me an internet message board is a good gauge of reality?

in addition I too have heard similar things preached from a few mainstream pulpits Define Mainstream.

The only places i've heard of Antisemitism in the Pulpit Usually had the term "Identity" or "Aryan" in their title.

Do you honestly think that if you go down to the nearest PCUSA or ELCA or ECUSA or SBC or UMC church you will hear the pastor reading from the Protocols of the elders of Zion, or rambling about the Christ killers?

:doh:





... plus TONS of what one (on *this* side of anti-semitism) might chose to charitably call "unconscious anti-semitism"I can't answer for things i was not present for, but its quite possible for someone to misunderstand people's intentions.

from pulpit, well-known televangelists, bible groups as nauseum .... sometimes one has to be target to notice the arrows .... Can you give me examples of these arrows?


And do yourself a favor.... don't come back with a bit about Jewish people being too sensitive ... it will not serve you well ....Thanks for simultaneously reading my mind and threatening me :doh:

[Wags]

I think what Henaynei was referring to was the personal "real life" experience that many folks here have experienced.

Did you notice on the list that I posted that the Anglicans were part of the church organizations that are anti-Israel?

The nations that surround Israel are not going to follow her democratic example - they will seek to destroy her right up until Messiah sends them to the pit. It doesn't matter if you think of Isarel as a religious or a secular state - if you support those that want to see Israel destroyed (and all Jews along with her), are you on Messiah's side?

Yes there are a handful of Orthodox Jews that think Isreal should not be a state - and there are Americans that think we should give most of the southwest back to Mexico. Just because a group wants something doesn't mean they are right.

[Colabomb]

I think what Henaynei was referring to was the personal "real life" experience that many folks here have experienced.

And I asked for examples.

Did you notice on the list that I posted that the Anglicans were part of the church organizations that are anti-Israel?No, the Episcopal Church, was on the list that wished for the political dissolution of Israel.

1) The Episcopal Church is not the Entirety of Anglicanism in the World

2) The Episcopal Church is not the Entirety of Anglicanism in the US.
3) Just because a section of the Episcopal Church says something (Such as the House of Bishops or Presiding Bishop Shori) does not mean it speaks for the entire denomination. If you've never disagreed with your leaders or those who are supposed to represent you, you are extremely lucky.

As Contra has told you multiple times (even as a new poster to the forum i have seen him correct your misunderstanding of how Anglicanism works, multiple times) we are not a monolithic church that agrees on absolutely everything all the time.

We are a very diverse and broad Tradition that consists of Conservatives/Liberals, Orthodox/Heretics, Young/Old, Traditionalist/Modernist, Zionist/AntiZionist.

We aren't Roman Catholic, we dont' hold our leaders to be infallible, and there is a LARGE room for disagreement within the Anglican Tradition.

The nations that surround Israel are not going to follow her democratic example - they will seek to destroy her right up until Messiah sends them to the pit. It doesn't matter if you think of Isarel as a religious or a secular state - if you support those that want to see Israel destroyed (and all Jews along with her), are you on Messiah's side?I don't support those who want Israel Destroyed, Neither do a large Number of Episcopalians.

I find it Ironic that you are blaming an entire Group for something a small portion have done. Isn't that similar to what the AntiSemites do?

Secondly, believing that Israel (the state) is illegal, is NOT the same as wanting the Massacre of Countless people. There is a large movement in the UK that believes that Northern Ireland should be Rejoined with The Republic of Ireland, however, does that mean that they necessarily want those in the UK who hold onto the territory to be massacred?

Yes there are a handful of Orthodox Jews that think Isreal should not be a state - and there are Americans that think we should give most of the southwest back to Mexico. Just because a group wants something doesn't mean they are right.

My point was, not that they were right, but rather that being anti Israel (the state) is not the same as being Anti Israel (The People).

Again, i support the existence of Israel, but I don't think that those who disagree with me on a political issue are Racists or Calling for the death of those in the Region.

[Wags]

You have your head stuck so far in the sand! Do you read or listen to anything the Palestinians say? Do you read or listen to anything the surrounding muslim countries say? The only acceptable "peace" they want with Israel is to see all of her Jewish inhabitants dead and gone!

If you have read here so much that you know what Conta has told me, then you should have also read all the personal exmaples of what "christians" do to Jews in real life - let alone the harassment that we have to put up with from "christians" on the CF forum..

Apprently you didn't read what I wrote very carefully because the Anglican Consultative Council was listed in that article. I posted that article because it shows what the leadership thinks. I realize that invidual beliefs may vary, but either folks are too scared to speak up, or they secertly agree otherwise the leadership wouldn't be doing this sort of thing.

You have posted the same tirade before about how "christians" don't really still persecute Jews and you have been given ample evidence that such things still occur in various forms. You aren't here to fellowship or learn you are here to push and agenda.

[Colabomb]

You have your head stuck so far in the sand! Do you read or listen to anything the Palestinians say? Do you read or listen to anything the surrounding muslim countries say? The only acceptable "peace" they want with Israel is to see all of her Jewish inhabitants dead and gone!

If you have read here so much that you know what Conta has told me, then you should have also read all the personal exmaples of what "christians" do to Jews in real life - let alone the harassment that we have to put up with from "christians" on the CF forum..

Apprently you didn't read what I wrote very carefully because the Anglican Consultative Council was listed in that article. I posted that article because it shows what the leadership thinks. I realize that invidual beliefs may vary, but either folks are too scared to speak up, or they secertly agree otherwise the leadership wouldn't be doing this sort of thing.

You have posted the same tirade before about how "christians" don't really still persecute Jews and you have been given ample evidence that such things still occur in various forms. You aren't here to fellowship or learn you are here to push and agenda.


I never said there was no persecution, i said I am not persecuting you, NEITHER ARE THE VAST MAJORITY OF GENTILE CHRISTIANS.

NoInstead of befriending your Friends, you wish to Rage about how evil "Christians" are, not racists, not antisemites you use the word CHRISTIAN to describe your persecutors, and that includes all of us.

You are attacking an entire GROUP, to spite the ones who have done you wrong. Sound familiar?

Yes, Jews are persecuted, and yes it is disgusting. But if you'd realize for ten minutes that there are Gentiles who can be your friend even though we disagree with your theology or version of Christianity, a lot more can be done.

Disagreeing with you does not constitute Antisemitism.


I'm stepping out of this discussion because i am losing my temper and it would be unChristian of me to continue.

[Henaynei]

perhaps what we've failed to make clear to you Colabomb is:

1) every true friend IS appreciated
2) historically very few of those who claimed to be friends actually were when the chips are down
3) more often than not those who said they were friends have turned, when the pressure was applied from other sources, and have betrayed those same individuals they once called friend
4) this has happened so many times, even as recently as the last century, that it is proverbial ... and thus
5) it is very hard to accept at face value those who say they are friends ... more often than not it has cost the lives of a great many people ...
6) if you can accept that, and accept it without disclaimer or "explanation," neither spoken nor unspoken, then you have made a huge step toward becoming a true friend ...
7) as 1930's Germany proved, to use a recent example, it is NOT necessary to have a majority to turn an entire nation anti-Semitic -- all that is necessary is a small minority who the majority decline to stand up to --- just like the minority we have in the US today who insist on their "right" to abortion and the "silent majority" who remain silent and thus complicit in the death and destruction of millions ... like it was in Germany the majority of Americans today are Christian and yet they are unable to stop something that the majority of them say they believe is wrong and is killing millions of people .... to the Jew who knows the history of his people and the history of the world this continuation of the old "head in the sand" response by the "majority" brings no comfort or peace when the "majority" claims to be friends ... that they say they are friends brings a ray of hope, sure, the Jew is the eternal optimist, but not comfort or peace, for the Jew is also the eternal realist ...