Moses' seat..

[visionary]

Perhaps no other passage in Matthew’s Gospel stands more at variance with the book’s overall theology than Matthew 23:2-3.

Matthew 23:2-3 as translated from Shem Tob’s Hebrew Matthew text.

“Upon the seat of Moses the Pharisees and Sages sit, and now, all which HE (Moses) will say(7) unto you-keep and do; but THEIR ordinances and deeds do not do, because THEY say and do not.”

The Complete Jewish Bible

Matthew 23:2 "The Torah-teachers and the P'rushim," he said, "sit in the seat of Moshe. 3 So whatever they tell you, take care to do it. But don't do what they do, because they talk but don't act!

While admitting that the Pharisees and Sages ‘sit upon Moses’ seat’, the Hebrew of Shem Tob’s Matthew does not demand that the ‘people and his disciples’ do and keep what THEY say. Rather by using the singular -‘He will say’, his hearers are directed to keep and do whatever Moses says unto them, but NOT to do according to the ordinances and deeds of the religious leaders.

http://www.ancientpaths.org/APRNnote1.html

[visionary]

Mal 2:8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 9 therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

isaiah 9:16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.

Matt 23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

Luke 6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
---------

Over the past few months there has been a great push that all things Judaism is honored above all. Tradition from Talmud or oral traditions are not necessarily good for the soul in its relationship with Yeshua.... or God for that matter.

It has been put forth that this particular text needs to be taken to mean that we are to bow down to the rabbis' of old like they were God's mouth piece and their answers are not to be questioned. Yeshua spoke the most harshly towards this line of thinking. We should not make the same mistake.

[SGM4HIM]

Excellent post. I concur.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Shalom Visionary. Here is how the Greek Text reads and I will study on it more.

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

Matthew 23:2 legwn <3004> (5723) {SAYING,} epi <1909> {UPON} thV <3588> {THE} mwsewV <3475> {MOSES} kaqedraV <2515> {DOWN-SETTLE} ekaqisan <2523> (5656) {ARE SEATED} oi <3588> {THE} grammateiV <1122> {SCRIBES/WRITERS} kai <2532> {AND} oi <3588> {THE} farisaioi <5330> {PHARISEES;}

Matthew 23:3 panta <3956> {ALL} oun <3767> {THEN} osa <3745> {AS MUCH AS} an <302> {EVER} eipwsin <2036> (5632) {THEY MAY BE SAYING} umin <5213> {TO YE} threin <5083> (5721) {TO KEEP,} threite <5083> (5720) {BE KEEPING} kai <2532> {AND} poieite <4160> (5720) {DO.} kata <2596> {ACCORDING AS} de <1161> {YET} ta <3588> {THE} erga <2041> {WORKS} autwn <846> {OF THEM} mh <3361> {NO} poieite <4160> (5720) {BE DOING} legousin <3004> (5719) {THEY ARE SAYING} gar <1063> {FOR} kai <2532> {AND} ou <3756> {NOT} poiousin <4160> (5719) {THEY ARE DOING}
Reve 1:3 Blessed the one reading, and those hearing, the Words of the Prophecy, and keepings/throunteV <5083> (5723) the in her having been written, for the time is near

[visionary]

This translation I am working with comes from the Dead Sea Scrolls of Matt in Hebrew.

[Hix]

Devarim (Deuteronomy) 17:8 - If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, even matters of controversy within thy gates; then shalt thou arise, and get thee up unto the place which HaShem thy G-d shall choose. (9) And thou shall come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days; and thou shalt inquire; and they shall declare unto thee the sentence of judgment. (10) And thou shalt do according to the tenor of the sentence, which they shall declare unto thee from that place which HaShem shall choose; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they shall teach thee. (11) According to the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do; thou shalt not turn aside from the sentence which they shall declare unto thee, to the right hand, nor to the left. (12) And the man that doeth presumptuously, in not hearkening unto the priest that standeth to minister there before HaShem thy G-d, or unto the judge, even that man shall die; and thou shalt exterminate the evil from Israel. (13) And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously.

[ContentInHim]

Thanks, Vis. I was reading this just this a.m. and noticed in the Strong's that the words for speak and do are neither singular or plural - they just are. And "he" and "they" are just inferred. Looks like a bad translation to me. And Hebrew Matthew backs "he" up.

Also, I wasn't aware that a Hebrew Matthew was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Do you have an interesting reference? Thanks, Vis! :wave:

[Steve Petersen]

Brian Tebbit taught about the Shem Tov Matthew at Daniel Lancaster's congregation, Beth Immanuel Sabbath Fellowship.

http://www.bethimmanuel.org/audio/shemtob.m3u

[visionary]

Thanks, Vis. I was reading this just this a.m. and noticed in the Strong's that the words for speak and do are neither singular or plural - they just are. And "he" and "they" are just inferred. Looks like a bad translation to me. And Hebrew Matthew backs "he" up.

Also, I wasn't aware that a Hebrew Matthew was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Do you have an interesting reference? Thanks, Vis! :wave:While all the texts that are on the internet on the similarity of the dead sea scrolls to many of the Matthew texts, I could not find this text specifically... Sorry.

[torahgrandma]

This translation I am working with comes from the Dead Sea Scrolls of Matt in Hebrew.

There is no Dead Sea Scrolls Matthew in Hebrew. The Shem Tov Hebrew Mathew is a middle ages Hebrew copy of a Latin text, that was altered by a counter missionary in an attempt to stop Jews from converting to Catholicism. It is nothing more than junk promoted by pseudo scholars.

[torahgrandma]

Brian Tebbit taught about the Shem Tov Matthew at Daniel Lancaster's congregation, Beth Immanuel Sabbath Fellowship.

http://www.bethimmanuel.org/audio/shemtob.m3u

I listened to a bit of this audio file. The speaker seems to have the history of where the Shem Tov originated from correct. Now if FFOZ and Lancaster could eliminate the talmudic error that they promote, I might have a better opinion of them.

[visionary]

"Matthew collected the oracles (ta logia) in the Hebrew language, and each interpreted them as best he could." - Papias (Eusebius, H.E. 3.39.16)

"Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews n their own dialect while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome and laying the foundations of the church." - Irenaeus, Adv. Haer. 3.1.1

"As having learnt by tradition concerning the four Gospels, which alone are unquestionable in the Church of God under heaven, that first was written according to Matthew, who was once a tax collector but afterwards an apostle of Jesus Christ, who published it for those who from Judaism came to believe, composed as it was in the Hebrew language." - Origen (Eusebius, H.E. 6.25.4)

Shem-Tob ben-Isaac ben-Shaprut Ibn Shaprut, a Castilian Jewish physician, living later in Aragon. 12th/ 13th book of Even Bochan contains a Hebrew version of the complete text of Matthew. Even Bochan was completed in 1380 CE, revised in 1385 & 1400. Various quotations of a "Hebrew or Ebionite Gospel" from Cyril of Jerusalem, Jerome, Origen, Didymus, Clement of Alexandria seem not to have much of a relationship to this current version of Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew.

click here for the rest of the information (http://www.essene.com/B'nai-Amen/shemtov.htm)

[Steve Petersen]

Tim Hegg takes a look at the Shem Tov Matthew here:

http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Matt23.3Gordon.pdf

[torahgrandma]

4.0 The Genesis of Shem-Tob's Hebrew Matthew
104. There is no mystery about the genesis of Shem-Tob's Hebrew Matthew. It is obvious that it incorporates material from a variety of sources (e.g., from the Toledoth Jeshu, the Vetus Latina, etc.). But because of the high number of agreements with the Liège Harmony, many of them unique, the tradition behind the Liège Harmony--which we know to be a Latin gospel harmony--must also be the principal element responsible for the textual complexion of Shem-Tob's Hebrew Matthew: it explains the Vetus Syra readings, it explains the Vetus Latina readings, it explains the Thomas readings, it explains the harmonizations, it explains the Johannine fragments, it explains the many parallels with the rest of the Western medieval harmonized gospel tradition (with, e.g., the Venetian Harmony, Codex Cassellanus, etc.).

http://rosetta.reltech.org/TC/vol03/Petersen1998a.html

[ContentInHim]

While all the texts that are on the internet on the similarity of the dead sea scrolls to many of the Matthew texts, I could not find this text specifically... Sorry.
Rats - I had high hopes! :hug:

[ContentInHim]

There is no Dead Sea Scrolls Matthew in Hebrew. The Shem Tov Hebrew Mathew is a middle ages Hebrew copy of a Latin text, that was altered by a counter missionary in an attempt to stop Jews from converting to Catholicism. It is nothing more than junk promoted by pseudo scholars.
There are actually several versions out there and though some are translated from Latin or Greek, there are others which correlate well with each other and are distinctly Hebrew! :)

[LittleLambofJesus]

While all the texts that are on the internet on the similarity of the dead sea scrolls to many of the Matthew texts, I could not find this text specifically... Sorry.Matthew tells of the Torah not passing away until the "new heaven/land/jerusalem".
While studying on the Hebrew for "Months" in the OT/OC, I came across these interesting passages.

The same Hebrew word used for Months in Ezekiel 39 is almost identical to the one Used in Isaiah 65. Any thoughts on this? Shalom.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Ezekiel 39:14 And-mortals-of continual, they-shall-seperate ones-passing in-land, ones-entombing the-ones-trespassing, the-ones-being-left on surface-of the-land,to-cleanse-her. From-end-of Seven_Months/חֳדָשִׁים they-shall-investigate.
Isaiah 65:17 That_behold-Me! Creating Heavens New-Ones/חֲדָשִׁים and-Land new and-not they-shall-be-remembered the-former-ones and-not they-shall-come-up on heart.

Hebrew texts taken from here:

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm)

[torahgrandma]

There are actually several versions out there and though some are translated from Latin or Greek, there are others which correlate well with each other and are distinctly Hebrew! :)

Let's stay with the facts, and not the myths that have been promoted by Hebrew roots "scholars".

The Shem Tov Hebrew Matthew is a theologically altered middle ages manuscript written approximately 1380-85 ce, which was translated into Hebrew from a Latin text that was originally translated from the Greek, making it a third generation copy (fourth if you include English) . This polemical version of the book of Matthew was included in the writing titled "Even Bohan" which translates as "The Touchstone."

This document was authored by Shem Tov Ibn Shaprut, who resided in Spain during the fourteenth century. He was a Jewish writer, who authored this in an attempt to stop the Jewish people from converting to Catholicism. The Shem Tov Matthew has anti-Christian polemical commentary written by him throughout the document.

There are nine known manuscripts of Even Bohan currently in existence. George Howard references only two of these manuscripts for his English translation which is widely known:

1) Mss. No. 26964 from the British Library in London, from which he translated chapters 1:1 through 23:22

2) Mss. No. 2426 from the Library of the Jewish Theological Seminary of America in New York, from which he referenced chapter 23:23 through 28:20 to complete his translation.

Shem Tov not only used the Gospel of Matthew in his polemical work Even Bohan, but he also attempted to translate a version of the book of Mark as he had done with Matthew, but the work was never completed. This partial book of Mark can be found in the Leiden Manuscript, catalogued as Ms. Heb. No. 28, from the Bibliotek der Rijksuniversiteit. You will find the first two chapters of his translation of the Gospel of Mark located in folio 177, at the end of Book XII. Some scholars believe that Shem Tov died before he could complete his Hebrew version of the Gospel of Mark, and that's why it is not found in all of the nine mss. It should be noted that the nine mss are only in partial agreement with each other.

I will now reiterate, that the Hebrew Matthews that we are currently in possesion of are junk mss. The JW's used them in their translation, and all the sacred name "translations" used them as well.

[ContentInHim]

Oh, TG, I know that you KNOW EVERYTHING, but I like to give an alternate viewpoint so it's not so one-sided! :P

[LittleLambofJesus]

I will now reiterate, that the Hebrew Matthews that we are currently in possesion of are junk mss. The JW's used them in their translation, and all the sacred name "translations" used them as well.
:eek: That is why I will stick to the Greek texts for ALL the NT/NC. :)

[torahgrandma]

Oh, TG, I know that you KNOW EVERYTHING, but I like to give an alternate viewpoint so it's not so one-sided! :P

And if it was substantiated with proof from qualified scholars, I might take it more seriously. :o

I have heard all of these sacred name teachings many times. No matter how many times they get repeated, they will never become factual.

[torahgrandma]

Michael Rood and Nehemiah Gordon did a tour and teaching about Moses seat where they promoted the fact that the Shem Tov had a different translation than the standard Greek texts in this passage:

Matthew 23
1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowd and to His disciples,
2 saying, The scribes and the Pharisees have sat down on Moses'seat.
3 Then all things, whatever they tell you to keep, keep and do. But do not do according to their works, for they say, and do not do.

And now the passage that their tour, teaching, and Gordon's book was based on:


3 And now all that he (it) will say to you guard and do.

Rood and Gordon’s interpretation of this was that Jesus was telling his disciples to do all that Moses, not the Pharisees were telling them to do.

The problem being with this conclusion, is that only a few of the Shem Tov manuscripts retain this reading, while the majority have the plural rendering of “they” which is commonly found in the Greek, Latin, and Aramaic manuscripts as the majority reading. This is a textbook example of errant textual criticism based on one's own personal theological biases and needs.

Shem Tov based his Even Bohan on at least two or more other works written by Jewish polemicists:

Ya'akov ben Reuven's "Sefer Milchamot Hashem" which was written in 1170 ce, and one of his contemporaries, Profiat Duran, who wrote "Sefer K'limat Ha-Goyim" (see chapter 10 entitled "ha-tzofeh). In the 11th chapter of the Sefer Milchamot Hashem (pages 141-156 in the edition by Yehudah Rozental - published by Mossad HaRav Kook, 1963) there can be found what appears to be the proto-type that was used for Ibn Shaprut's version of Matthew. It appears that Ibn Shaprut constructed his version of Matthew based on Yaakov ben Reuven's earlier work. The Shem Tov Matthew has passages that have been modified from the Greek text that use Talmudic references, as well as some references from the Toldoth Yeshu. There are many places where the name of Jesus is written in the Hebrew as Yesh'u with an apostrophe between the letters shin and vav. This use of YeSHU is meant as an acronym for the phrase "Yimach Shemo Ve-zichro," meaning 'may his name and memory be blotted out.'

[A_Pioneer]

The Church and haSatan would never allow a copy of Matthew to come to life!
The nearest thing that can be found is done in the 20th century by Hebrew University, that the Scholars back translated the Koine Greek back to Hebrew and what I have heard it back translated back easily and perfectly, until you came to added texts and translation notes, then it proved impossible to back translate.
All the Hebrew idioms are there in all their splendor.

Shalom

[LittleLambofJesus]

Matthew 23
1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowd and to His disciples,
2 saying, The scribes and the Pharisees have sat down on Moses'seat.
3 Then all things, whatever they tell you to keep, keep and do. But do not do according to their works, for they say, and do not do.

And now the passage that their tour, teaching, and Gordon's book was based on:


3 And now all that he (it) will say to you guard and do.
What is wrong with reading it word-for-word from the Greek?
The "they" could be the Torah commands perhaps.

Matthew 23:3 panta <3956> {ALL} oun <3767> {THEN} osa <3745> {AS MUCH AS} an <302> {EVER} eipwsin <2036> (5632) {THEY MAY BE SAYING} umin <5213> {TO YE} threin <5083> (5721) {TO KEEP,} threite <5083> (5720) {BE KEEPING} kai <2532> {AND} poieite <4160> (5720) {DO.} kata <2596> {ACCORDING AS} de <1161> {YET} ta <3588> {THE} erga <2041> {WORKS} autwn <846> {OF THEM} mh <3361> {NO} poieite <4160> (5720) {BE DOING} legousin <3004> (5719) {THEY ARE SAYING} gar <1063> {FOR} kai <2532> {AND} ou <3756> {NOT} poiousin <4160> (5719) {THEY ARE DOING}

Byz./Maj.) Matthew 23:3 panta oun osa ean eipwsin umin threin threite kai poieite kata de ta erga autwn mh poieite legousin gar kai ou poiousin

Textus Rec.) Matthew 23:3 panta oun osa an eipwsin umin threin threite kai poieite kata de ta erga autwn mh poieite legousin gar kai ou poiousin

W-H ) Matthew 23:3 panta oun osa ean eipwsin umin poihsate kai threite kata de ta erga autwn mh poieite legousin gar kai ou poiousin

[LittleLambofJesus]

Sorry if I put up the greek texts but I feel it helps me to more accurately translate the Word.
This form of the word "keep" is interesting in Matt 19 concerning the Commandments and also used in John 17 when Jesus was praying to YHWH His Father.
This interlinear is nice as it parses the Greek/Hebrew words and appears to have the correct Tenses.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 19:17 o <3588> {THE} de <1161> {YET} eipen <2036> (5627) {HE SAID} autw <846> {TO HIM,} ti <5101> {ANY/WHY} me <3165> {ME} legeiV <3004> (5719) {ASKING ME} agaqon <18> {GOOD?} oudeiV <3762> {NOT YET ONE} agaqoV <18> {IS GOOD} ei <1487> {IF} mh <3361> {NO} eiV <1520> {INTO} o <3588> {THE} qeoV <2316> {GOD}
ei <1487> {IF} de <1161> {YET} qeleiV <2309> (5719) {THOU ARE WILLING} eiselqein <1525> (5629) {TO BE ENTERING} eiV <1519> {INTO} thn <3588> {THE} zwhn <2222> {LIFE,} thrhson <5083> (5657) {KEEP} taV <3588> {THE} entolaV <1785> {COMMANDMENTS.}

John 17:11 | kai <2532> {AND} ouk <3756> {NOT} eti <2089> {STILL} eimi <1510> (5748) {I AM} en <1722> {IN} tw <3588> {THE} kosmw <2889> {WORLD,} kai <2532> {AND} outoi <3778> {THEY/THESE} en <1722> {IN} tw <3588> {THE} kosmw <2889> {WORLD} eisin <1526> (5748) {ARE,} kai <2532> {AND} egw <1473> {I} proV <4314> {TOWARD} se <4571> {THEE} ercomai <2064> (5736) {AM COMING} pater <3962> {FATHER} agie <40> {HOLY,} thrhson <5083> (5657) {KEEP} autouV <846> {THEM} en <1722> {IN} tw <3588> {THE} onomati <3686> {NAME} sou <4675> {OF THEE} ouV <3739> {WHICH} dedwkaV <1325> (5758) {THOU HAVE GIVEN} moi <3427> {TO ME,} ina <2443> {THAT} wsin <5600> (5753) {THEY MAY BE} en <1520> {ONE,} kaqwV <2531> {ACCORDING AS} hmeiV <2249> {WE-ARE.}

[varsity]

The same Hebrew word used for Months in Ezekiel 39 is almost identical to the one Used in Isaiah 65. Any thoughts on this?

Sure! The Hebrew word for month (chodesh) and the word for new (chadash) are from the same root, i.e. same consonants different vowels. Hebrew months are determined by observing the new moon, in fact, the same word is used for both "month" and "new moon". Hebrew often uses adjectives as nouns, so as a noun "chadash" means "new thing" or "new one" (added note: However in Is 65:17 chadashim is an adjective modifying shamayim, so the combination reads "new heavens"). "Chodashim" is just the plural of "chodesh", while "chadashim" is the masculine plural of "chadash". Remember the term for "New Covenant" is "Brit Chadashah". "Chadashah" is just the feminine form of "chadash". Just basic Hebrew vocabulary and grammar.

Note just for completeness, modern Hebrew uses "molad hayareach", literally "the birth of the moon" for "new moon".

[LittleLambofJesus]

Here is the Greek texts for that verse
There are also 24 elders in settled on 24 thrones in the Jewish book of "Revelation", so maybe there is a similarity there. What do "elers" signify in relation to the Priests, Scribes and other religious leaders in the Bible? Thoughts? Shalom.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 23:2 Saying "upon the Moses seat/kaqedraV <2515> are-seated the Scribes and the Pharisees".

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

Byz./Maj.) Matthew 23:2 legwn epi thV mwsewV kaqedraV ekaqisan oi grammateiV kai oi farisaioi
Textus Rec.) Matthew 23:2 legwn epi thV mwsewV kaqedraV ekaqisan oi grammateiV kai oi farisaioi

2515. kathedra kath-ed'-rah from 2596 and the same as 1476; a bench (literally or figuratively):--seat.

Revelation 4:4 And surrounding the throne, thrones, twenty four, and upon the thrones twenty four elders down-settled/kaqhmenouV <2521> (5740), having been about-cast in garments, white, and upon the heads of them, crowns of gold

2521. kathemai kath'-ay-mahee from 2596; and hemai (to sit; akin to the base of 1476); to sit down; figuratively, to remain, reside:--dwell, sit (by, down).

[debi b]

It has been put forth that this particular text needs to be taken to mean that we are to bow down to the rabbis' of old like they were God's mouth piece and their answers are not to be questioned. Yeshua spoke the most harshly towards this line of thinking. We should not make the same mistake.

When Yeshua spoke was its sole purpose given to that situation only? Or can we extract a principle and apply it? If the door only swings one way do we really learn? Who sits in the seat of Moses today that is accepted by those who claim to follow Messiah?

[visionary]

When Yeshua spoke was its sole purpose given to that situation only? Or can we extract a principle and apply it? If the door only swings one way do we really learn? Who sits in the seat of Moses today that is accepted by those who claim to follow Messiah?I agree, I do not think that it applied to that situation only. I believe we should extract the principle and apply it. Not too sure what door you speak of?? The sanhedrin are back to sit in Moses' seat.

[Lulav]

When Yeshua spoke was its sole purpose given to that situation only? Or can we extract a principle and apply it? If the door only swings one way do we really learn? Who sits in the seat of Moses today that is accepted by those who claim to follow Messiah?And that is the $64,000 question, Catholics would say that they hold the key to this in the pope , passed from Peter, but we all know it would not be entrusted to one man, as one can easily be corrupted. Moses, on the other hand , we already have his history and what G-d himself told him to record, thus to follow. Add that to what was remember via the Holy Spirit that Yeshua promised, and his words we use to understand Torah.

[brachah]

“Upon the seat of Moses the Pharisees and Sages sit, and now, all which HE (Moses) will say(7) unto you-keep and do; but THEIR ordinances and deeds do not do, because THEY say and do not.”



tks for sharing this. this makes the whole verse much more logical.

Add that to what was remember via the Holy Spirit that Yeshua promised, and his words we use to understand Torah.
amen. we r not bots listening to whatever others are saying, but listenning to the voice inside us.

[debi b]

I agree, I do not think that it applied to that situation only. I believe we should extract the principle and apply it. Not too sure what door you speak of?? The sanhedrin are back to sit in Moses' seat.

The door that I meant was;
in one direction we easily think we understand to how this applies to Judaism but the other direction is the religious world we navigate in.

An example is the concept of a hypocrite. We read about the particulars of this in the pages of the NT and we walk away happy and content that we don't have that particular problem that is being used as an example of a hypocrite. But do we examine ourselves? Ask the guy on the street what he thinks.....

[visionary]

The door that I meant was;
in one direction we easily think we understand to how this applies to Judaism but the other direction is the religious world we navigate in.

An example is the concept of a hypocrite. We read about the particulars of this in the pages of the NT and we walk away happy and content that we don't have that particular problem that is being used as an example of a hypocrite. But do we examine ourselves? Ask the guy on the street what he thinks.....like those who sit on the ecumenical council...the church board... the church organizational directorship... the ben din....

[Henaynei]

like those who sit on the ecumenical council...the church board... the church organizational directorship... the ben din....how easy to point at authorities and leadership.... thus it has always been since "... the woman YOU gave me...." - when the actual fault lies with the individual instead .... the mes and yous..... not the thems .....

[visionary]

Collectively the you's and me's =thems. Thems came to an agreement in majority rule, and that is what makes them more dangerous than the individual you's and me's.

[Henaynei]

Collectively the you's and me's =thems. Thems came to an agreement in majority rule, and that is what makes them more dangerous than the individual you's and me's. the yous and mes choose or allow the thems ... thus the onus remains on the yous and mes :) the thems are only an extension and expression of the yous and mes ....:)

[Steve Petersen]

Deu 17:8-13 (KJV) If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose; 9 And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and inquire; and they shall show thee the sentence of judgment: 10 And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall show thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee: 11 According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall show thee, to the right hand, nor to the left. 12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel. 13 And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously.

[visionary]

Deu 17:8-13 (KJV) If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose; 9 And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and inquire; and they shall show thee the sentence of judgment: 10 And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall show thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee: 11 According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall show thee, to the right hand, nor to the left. 12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel. 13 And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously.Is there not something about those who teach the left or right perfect judgment?