Accurate Bible?

[Kazamataz]

Hi all,
Well I just had some JW come knock on my door.
They were very lovely people and we had a very nice chat.

Pretty much I didn't see there were that many differences between my beliefs and there's.

They were a little more focused on end times but thats nothing new to me.

The one thing that they kept coming back to but I could never get a straight answer from was that you need to have an accurate bible.

Now this I don't dispute in anyways, However I kept asking and didn't get a response to my question. So can anyone here help me?

What makes The New World (JW) Bible different from other versions of the bible? and why do JW's believe its the most accurate?

[Gary51]

Hi all,
Well I just had some JW come knock on my door.
They were very lovely people and we had a very nice chat.

Pretty much I didn't see there were that many differences between my beliefs and there's.

They were a little more focused on end times but thats nothing new to me.

The one thing that they kept coming back to but I could never get a straight answer from was that you need to have an accurate bible.

Now this I don't dispute in anyways, However I kept asking and didn't get a response to my question. So can anyone here help me?

What makes The New World (JW) Bible different from other versions of the bible? and why do JW's believe its the most accurate?
I don't see that there is a great deal of difference between their Bible and any other translation.

I think the main difference between JW's and traditional Christiainty is in the interpretation of scripture.

I personally think JW's are closer to the truth than traditional Christians.

[Kazamataz]

I don't see that there is a great deal of difference between their Bible and any other translation.

I think the main difference between JW's and traditional Christiainty is in the interpretation of scripture.

I personally think JW's are closer to the truth than traditional Christians.
But how do you determine this?

Why are JW's closer to the truth?

Thats the thing I don't really understand.

[Gary51]

But how do you determine this?

Why are JW's closer to the truth?

Thats the thing I don't really understand.
They understand that man is not born with an immortal soul. They believe what the Bible says, that erternal life is a gift from God given at the ressurrection to those that are in the book of life.

Tradtional Christianity seems to believe that man is born with an immortal soul that goes striaght to heaven or hell at the point of death. According to the Bible the Christ on His second coming brings with Him the reward of eternal life. And the second coming has not yet happened.

The JW's also do not believe that God sends people into erternal torment by fire in hell. They believe what Bible says about the second death. They believe the second death is the punishment of the evil, eternal death.

JW's do not observe Christmas, because Nowhere in the Bible are we told to observe it. Also Christmas has quite a lot of paganism in it.

Personally, I believe they are too zealous about Christmas, and I think they are too zealous with their views on blood. The Bible does say abstain from blood, but I think they take it too far.

[Anichai]

The King James Bible was made from over 60,000 pre-1611 identical manuscripts, gathered from all over the earth, all of which agree. Every other version has less than 4.

The New World perversion is a translation, like all non-KJB's, from Alexandrian manuscripts. The Alexandrians used the teachings of Christ in order to push their own agenda by flooding it with acceptable-in-the-day pagan teachings and by simply editing text to meet their own ends. The Alexandrians can be seen in scripture to be arguing with the apostle Paul. Indeed the same thing happens today with all these other versions, or per-versions. Not long after the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD the Alexandrians were no more. They were found out. Their manuscripts were locked away. (Burning manuscripts had been outlawed.) Suddenly over a thousand years later people discover these manuscripts and find out that they are much older than the KJB, and follow the assumption that they must be more reliable.

The original unperverted texts where sent out and copied and read. After reading old books over and over again they began to fall apart and were no good. New copies were made and distributed. Hence the 60,000 manuscripts matching the KJB. The perverted ones were not copied, they were locked away. Hence the few that match the NW.

Note: All non-KJV bibles including NKJV are from Alexandrian manuscripts and the Vulgate. Again the Vulgate spent hundreds of years in darkness and does not match any other manuscripts.

In Christ,
Anichai.

[Gary51]

The King James Bible was made from over 60,000 pre-1611 identical manuscripts, gathered from all over the earth, all of which agree. Every other version has less than 4.

The New World perversion is a translation, like all non-KJB's, from Alexandrian manuscripts. The Alexandrians used the teachings of Christ in order to push their own agenda by flooding it with acceptable-in-the-day pagan teachings and by simply editing text to meet their own ends. The Alexandrians can be seen in scripture to be arguing with the apostle Paul. Indeed the same thing happens today with all these other versions, or per-versions. Not long after the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD the Alexandrians were no more. They were found out. Their manuscripts were locked away. (Burning manuscripts had been outlawed.) Suddenly over a thousand years later people discover these manuscripts and find out that they are much older than the KJB, and follow the assumption that they must be more reliable.

The original unperverted texts where sent out and copied and read. After reading old books over and over again they began to fall apart and were no good. New copies were made and distributed. Hence the 60,000 manuscripts matching the KJB. The perverted ones were not copied, they were locked away. Hence the few that match the NW.

Note: All non-KJV bibles including NKJV are from Alexandrian manuscripts and the Vulgate. Again the Vulgate spent hundreds of years in darkness and does not match any other manuscripts.

In Christ,
Anichai.
Can you point out the differences for me?

I've got a copy of the NWT, so I'll be able to check.

Thanks

[HisdaughterJen]

The "cross" is called the "torture stake".
Jesus is "a god" and not "God" in John 1:1.
It is full of "Jehovah" where the tetragrammaton is as well as in the New Testament where no tetragrammaton is.

Things were changed to line up with their teachings.

There are other problems with it as well including who "translated" it.

[Kazamataz]

Thanks guys for answering my question, I'm still confused but I don't quite know what my questions are!

There was alot to taken in there esp what Anichai wrote.

Thanks :0)

[Gary51]

The "cross" is called the "torture stake".

It does say that Jesus was nailed to a tree, maybe it was a stake, maybe it was a tree, or maybe it was a cross. At the end of the day is it that important?

Jesus is "a god" and not "God" in John 1:1.

They may or may not be right, it is possible that a misstranslation occured. And ater all it is a fact that Jesus never once claimed to be God. And the fact that he never denied not being God does not help. Jesus was not clear on this matter.

It is full of "Jehovah" where the tetragrammaton is as well as in the New Testament where no tetragrammaton is.

The same can be said of the translations that have replaced the tetragrammaton, with the word LORD.

Things were changed to line up with their teachings.

I have not seen prove of that, however, I have seen proof that the Catholic Church changed 1 John 5:7-8

There are other problems with it as well including who "translated" it.

Please elaborate.

[Gary51]

Can you point out the differences for me?

I've got a copy of the NWT, so I'll be able to check.

Thanks
Still waiting for you to point out the perversions you claim are in the NWT

[HisdaughterJen]

Still waiting for you to point out the perversions you claim are in the NWT
Bad Translations of the Jehovah's Witness Bible,
the New World Translation (NWT).


Gen. 1:1-2 - "In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep; and God's active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters." (New World Translation, Emphasis added)
The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society denies that the Holy Spirit (http://www.carm.org/doctrine/holyspirit.htm) is alive, third person of the Trinity (http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trinity.htm). Therefore, they have changed the correct translation of "...the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters," to say "...and God's active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters."
Zech. 12:10 - In this verse God is speaking and says "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son" (Zech. 12:10, NASB).

The Jehovah's Witnesses change the word "me" to "the one" so that it says in their Bible, "...they will look upon the one whom they have pierced..."
Since the Jehovah's Witnesses deny that Jesus is God in flesh, then Zech. 12:10 would present obvious problems--so they changed it.John 1:1 - They mistranslate the verse as "a god." Again it is because they deny who Jesus is and must change the Bible to make it agree with their theology. The Jehovah's Witness version is this: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." Col. 1:15-17 - The word "other" is inserted 4 times. It is not in the original Greek, nor is it implied. This is a section where Jesus is described as being the creator of all things. Since the Jehovah's Witness organization believes that Jesus is created, they have inserted the word "other" to show that Jesus was before all "other" things, implying that He is created.

There are two Greek words for "other": heteros, and allos. The first means another of a different kind, and the second means another of the same kind. Neither is used at all in this section of scripture. The Jehovah's Witness have changed the Bible to make it fit their aberrant theology.Heb. 1:6 - In this verse they translate the Greek word for worship, proskuneo, as "obeisance." Obeisance is a word that means to honor, show respect, even bow down before someone. Since Jesus, to them, is created, then he cannot be worshiped. They have also done this in other verses concerning Jesus, i.e., Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9.
Heb. 1:8 - This is a verse where God the Father is calling Jesus God: "But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.'" Since the Jehovah's Witnesses don't agree with that they have changed the Bible, yet again, to agree with their theology. They have translated the verse as "...God is your throne..." The problem with the Jehovah's Witness translation is that this verse is a quote from Psalm 45:6 which, from the Hebrew, can only be translated as "...Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom." To justify their New Testament translation they actually changed the OT verse to agree with their theology, too!The NWT translation is not a good translation. It has changed the text to suit its own theological bias in many places.

http://www.carm.org/jw/nwt.htm



About the translators:

http://www.freeminds.org/history/NWTauthors.htm

[Gary51]

Bad Translations of the Jehovah's Witness Bible,
the New World Translation (NWT).


Gen. 1:1-2 - "In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep; and God's active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters." (New World Translation, Emphasis added)
The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society denies that the Holy Spirit (http://www.carm.org/doctrine/holyspirit.htm) is alive, third person of the Trinity (http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trinity.htm). Therefore, they have changed the correct translation of "...the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters," to say "...and God's active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters."
Zech. 12:10 - In this verse God is speaking and says "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son" (Zech. 12:10, NASB).

The Jehovah's Witnesses change the word "me" to "the one" so that it says in their Bible, "...they will look upon the one whom they have pierced..."
Since the Jehovah's Witnesses deny that Jesus is God in flesh, then Zech. 12:10 would present obvious problems--so they changed it.John 1:1 - They mistranslate the verse as "a god." Again it is because they deny who Jesus is and must change the Bible to make it agree with their theology. The Jehovah's Witness version is this: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." Col. 1:15-17 - The word "other" is inserted 4 times. It is not in the original Greek, nor is it implied. This is a section where Jesus is described as being the creator of all things. Since the Jehovah's Witness organization believes that Jesus is created, they have inserted the word "other" to show that Jesus was before all "other" things, implying that He is created.

There are two Greek words for "other": heteros, and allos. The first means another of a different kind, and the second means another of the same kind. Neither is used at all in this section of scripture. The Jehovah's Witness have changed the Bible to make it fit their aberrant theology.Heb. 1:6 - In this verse they translate the Greek word for worship, proskuneo, as "obeisance." Obeisance is a word that means to honor, show respect, even bow down before someone. Since Jesus, to them, is created, then he cannot be worshiped. They have also done this in other verses concerning Jesus, i.e., Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9.
Heb. 1:8 - This is a verse where God the Father is calling Jesus God: "But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.'" Since the Jehovah's Witnesses don't agree with that they have changed the Bible, yet again, to agree with their theology. They have translated the verse as "...God is your throne..." The problem with the Jehovah's Witness translation is that this verse is a quote from Psalm 45:6 which, from the Hebrew, can only be translated as "...Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom." To justify their New Testament translation they actually changed the OT verse to agree with their theology, too!The NWT translation is not a good translation. It has changed the text to suit its own theological bias in many places.

http://www.carm.org/jw/nwt.htm



About the translators:

http://www.freeminds.org/history/NWTauthors.htm
Some of this I have already covered. The rest seems to be talking of interpretation of scripture... not change.

[kallenfranchise]

Bad Translations of the Jehovah's Witness Bible,


the New World Translation (NWT).

Gen. 1:1-2 - "In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep; and God's active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters." (New World Translation, Emphasis added)
The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society denies that the Holy Spirit (http://www.carm.org/doctrine/holyspirit.htm) is alive, third person of the Trinity (http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trinity.htm). Therefore, they have changed the correct translation of "...the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters," to say "...and God's active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters."

The definition of a force is powerful energy or intensity. I'm quite sure we all believe that spirits and humans can talk. Well, it clearly states in Acts 13:2 and Hebrews 3:7 that the Holy Spirit spoke.

The authors of the New World Translation remained to be anonymous after the publishing of the Bible. When the Bible was upon investigation, they could not be contacted and questioned about their background or credentials because they could not be reached (due to their anonymity). Sounds like they are hiding something to me.

[Gary51]

Ever wondered why the Holy Spirit does not have a personal name?

The Father = Yahweh
The Son = Jesus
The Holy Spirit = ????

[HisdaughterJen]

Ever wondered why the Holy Spirit does not have a personal name?

The Father = Yahweh
The Son = Jesus
The Holy Spirit = ????
Ever wonder why Jesus said to baptize people in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

Mat 28:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Mat&chapter=28#) Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


They are all the same and have the same name.

Jhn 17:11 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=17&v=11&version=NIV#11)I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name-the name you gave me-so that they may be one as we are one.

[Gary51]

Ever wonder why Jesus said to baptize people in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

Mat 28:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Mat&chapter=28#) Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


They are all the same and have the same name.

Jhn 17:11 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=17&v=11&version=NIV#11)I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name-the name you gave me-so that they may be one as we are one.
No, I've never wondered.... why would I need to?

The love of God is just as Holy as the Spirit of God.

God's love doesn't have a name either.

[woden]

Thanks guys for answering my question, I'm still confused but I don't quite know what my questions are!

There was alot to taken in there esp what Anichai wrote.

Thanks :0)

Hope the following helps but sorry I'm a bit late coming in on this one. An accurate easy to read and understand Bible is a must for any serious student. An academic* put several Bibles together in a study from 2003. Nine Bibles were put head to head to find out which accurately rendered certain controversial passages of scripture for bias interfering with the translation.

The Bibles were: The Amplified New Testament,
The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures,
The Living Bible,
The New American Bible with Revised New Testament,
New American Standard Bible,
The Holy Bible-New International Version,
The New Revised Standard Version,
The Bible in Today's English Version,
The King James Version.

Each of the passages of Scripture he chose were compared against the Greek text verses the renderings of the nine Bibles. What he was looking for was any biased attempts to change the meaning in the original Greek. What he found may help you and others.

Quote "Most of the differences are due to the greater accuracy of the NW (New World Translation) as a literal, conservative translation. This version emerges as the most accurate of the translations compared. It is a remarkably good translation."

Notice what Bibles the NW was up against. Do you have one of them yourself? Dr. Benjamin Kedar a scholar of Hebrew wrote in 1989, "This work reflects an honest endeavour to achieve an understanding of the text that is as accurate as possible. I have never discovered in the New World Translation any biased intent to read something into the text that it does not contain"

Do you find that interesting? Two men who are not affiliated to Jehovah's Witnesses believe the NWT to be an honest accurate translation. Both know more about Greek and Hebrew tham most of us will ever know. Therefore their statements hopefully will get us all to think prayerfully the next time the Witnesses call. Do you think you will ask for a copy of the NWT?


*Jason David Be-Duhn of the Northern Arizona University. Study conducted in 2003.

[woden]

Ever wonder why Jesus said to baptize people in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

Mat 28:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Mat&chapter=28#) Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


They are all the same and have the same name.

Jhn 17:11 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=17&v=11&version=NIV#11)I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name-the name you gave me-so that they may be one as we are one.
Jen have a look at the quote above and then consider this. If Jesus and God are one as quoted at Jon.17:11 what does the relationship become when you look at verse 21? A bit crowded?

[HisdaughterJen]

Jen have a look at the quote above and then consider this. If Jesus and God are one as quoted at Jon.17:11 what does the relationship become when you look at verse 21? A bit crowded?
No, how can it be crowded because they are ONE and the same?

Jhn 17:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=17&version=NIV#) I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name–the name you gave me–so that they may be one as we are one.
Jhn 17:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=17&version=NIV#) While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
Jhn 17:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=17&version=NIV#) “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them.
Jhn 17:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=17&version=NIV#) I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
Jhn 17:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=17&version=NIV#) My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
Jhn 17:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=17&version=NIV#) They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.
Jhn 17:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=17&version=NIV#) Sanctify[fn2] (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=17&version=NIV#_fnt_2) them by the truth; your word is truth.
Jhn 17:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=17&version=NIV#) As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.
Jhn 17:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=17&version=NIV#) For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
Jhn 17:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=17&version=NIV#) “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,
Jhn 17:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=17&version=NIV#)that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
Jhn 17:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=17&version=NIV#) I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:
Jhn 17:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=17&version=NIV#) I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.



Read the Bible and let God teach you what all of this means because you will not listen to me. You will not get it though the Watchtower because it is not Inspired.

[Free04]

Still waiting for you to point out the perversions you claim are in the NWT

Just compare scripture that backs the deity of Christ in the Holy Bible and those same scriptures in the NWT. The NWT was translated to reject the deity of Christ.

[woden]

Just compare scripture that backs the deity of Christ in the Holy Bible and those same scriptures in the NWT. The NWT was translated to reject the deity of Christ.
Perhaps it's the other way round. The linking of God and Christ as one and the same isn't in the Bible, it is a doctrine that came about in the 4th Cent. Check out the Catholic Encyclopeadia on the matter. At least you may find an answer as to why some believe in the trinity and why some do not.

[Free04]

Perhaps it's the other way round. The linking of God and Christ as one and the same isn't in the Bible, it is a doctrine that came about in the 4th Cent.

I guess that would depend on what bible your speaking of. If it is the NWT you are correct.

Check out the Catholic Encyclopeadia on the matter. At least you may find an answer as to why some believe in the trinity and why some do not.[/quote]

I'll stick with the Holy Bible. :thumbsup:

[woden]

I guess that would depend on what bible your speaking of. If it is the NWT you are correct.

Check out the Catholic Encyclopeadia on the matter. At least you may find an answer as to why some believe in the trinity and why some do not.

I'll stick with the Holy Bible. :thumbsup:[/QUOTE]
Absolutely. But the Enyclopeadia points out that a cornerstone doctrine was not taught by the Apostolic Fathers but was taught some three to four hundred years later, after the Great Apostasy had occurred. Exploration of the trinity's history which every sincere Christian ought to do may make someone just stop and think, " what have I been taught"? But many will blindly go on believing in what could be the biggest deception in all of Christendom, hence why some call it "a mystery". People had to fight to get the Bible printed in their language and not in Latin as it was for a very long time. Bible reading was suppressed by the Church, did they have something to hide, and could be punishable by burning at the stake. Incidently there has been no feedback on the piece with the study conducted in 2003 at the University in Northern Arizona. Some thoughts would be appreciated.

[Free04]

Perhaps it's the other way round. The linking of God and Christ as one and the same isn't in the Bible, it is a doctrine that came about in the 4th Cent. Check out the Catholic Encyclopeadia on the matter. At least you may find an answer as to why some believe in the trinity and why some do not.

I love a systematic theology, but my final authority is God. Do you not believe the Holy Bible is the word of God?

[HisdaughterJen]

Absolutely. But the Enyclopeadia points out that a cornerstone doctrine was not taught by the Apostolic Fathers but was taught some three to four hundred years later, after the Great Apostasy had occurred. Exploration of the trinity's history which every sincere Christian ought to do may make someone just stop and think, " what have I been taught"? But many will blindly go on believing in what could be the biggest deception in all of Christendom, hence why some call it "a mystery". People had to fight to get the Bible printed in their language and not in Latin as it was for a very long time. Bible reading was suppressed by the Church, did they have something to hide, and could be punishable by burning at the stake.

Stick to what the Bible says.

YHWH is the Alpha and Omega. TRUE

Rev 1:8 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Rev&c=1&v=8&version=NIV#8)"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

JESUS is the Alpha and Omega. TRUE

Rev 22:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rev&chapter=22&version=NIV#) “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.
Rev 22:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rev&chapter=22&version=NIV#) I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.



YHWH is the only Savior. TRUE

Isa 43:11 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Isa&c=43&v=11&version=NIV#11)I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from me there is no savior.

Isa 45:21 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Isa&c=45&v=21&version=NIV#21)Declare what is to be, present it-- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me.


Jesus is the only Savior. TRUE

Tts 2:13 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Tts&c=2&v=13&version=NIV#13)while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,


Act 4:12 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Act&c=4&v=12&version=NIV#12)Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."


Now, if you keep comparing scripture with scripture, you'll see that YHWH and Jesus are one and the same.

When Jesus came to the earth, he was "a little lower than the angels", since he was in the flesh, a human.

Now, what Bible-believer is ever going to understand that this Jesus, who stood before them in the flesh, is God? God is not made of flesh. He is a Spirit.

So, when Jesus said, "the Father is greater than I", he was speaking the truth at that moment. He came from the Father, was made flesh, and lived among us. He, who was made into a perfect man, acted as our kinsman redeemer, and bought us all back to God through the shedding of his blood.


Now, back to the statements:

Did GOD die? NO
Did Jesus die and rise again? Yes

You see, they are the same but since Jesus, who came forth from the Father, came in the flesh, then, for a time, was "separated" from the Father which is why He could say, while in the flesh, that "the Father is greater than I".

Otherwise, you'd have to say that Jesus is not God, but some created being completely separate from God in every way...but Biblically, that's not true either.


Incidently there has been no feedback on the piece with the study conducted in 2003 at the University in Northern Arizona. Some thoughts would be appreciated.

So, a couple of guys think that some of the translations in the New World Translation are accurate. There are a thousand others who think it's not accurate. It's not like we don't have access to Greek and Hebrew and can't see and decide for ourselves.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

We are to test everything and instructed to do so in God's Word. Do you think we'd say, "hmmm, this guy has a degree so he must be right."?


And the debate continues....

[woden]

Hope the following helps but sorry I'm a bit late coming in on this one. An accurate easy to read and understand Bible is a must for any serious student. An academic* put several Bibles together in a study from 2003. Nine Bibles were put head to head to find out which accurately rendered certain controversial passages of scripture for bias interfering with the translation.

The Bibles were: The Amplified New Testament,
The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures,
The Living Bible,
The New American Bible with Revised New Testament,
New American Standard Bible,
The Holy Bible-New International Version,
The New Revised Standard Version,
The Bible in Today's English Version,
The King James Version.

Each of the passages of Scripture he chose were compared against the Greek text verses the renderings of the nine Bibles. What he was looking for was any biased attempts to change the meaning in the original Greek. What he found may help you and others.

Quote "Most of the differences are due to the greater accuracy of the NW (New World Translation) as a literal, conservative translation. This version emerges as the most accurate of the translations compared. It is a remarkably good translation."

Notice what Bibles the NW was up against. Do you have one of them yourself? Dr. Benjamin Kedar a scholar of Hebrew wrote in 1989, "This work reflects an honest endeavour to achieve an understanding of the text that is as accurate as possible. I have never discovered in the New World Translation any biased intent to read something into the text that it does not contain"

Do you find that interesting? Two men who are not affiliated to Jehovah's Witnesses believe the NWT to be an honest accurate translation. Both know more about Greek and Hebrew tham most of us will ever know. Therefore their statements hopefully will get us all to think prayerfully the next time the Witnesses call. Do you think you will ask for a copy of the NWT?


*Jason David Be-Duhn of the Northern Arizona University. Study conducted in 2003.
Is there no interest to this post? Most unusual. Is it because the ones who had something positive to say about the NWT are both learned men and not a JW?

[HisdaughterJen]

Is there no interest to this post? Most unusual. Is it because the ones who had something positive to say about the NWT are both learned men and not a JW?
I answered you in my post #25.

The JW's are fond of quoting people but only if they say things that to their favor. Their little booklet that they've been using to study with potential members even quotes the Mormons.

[The Gregorian]

Here's the fact... Most bibles intentionally translate the name of God (YHWH, Jehovah, or Yahweh) as "LORD" in order to blur the lines between "the LORD" (specifically Yahweh) and "the lord" (anyone of a ruling class, including Jesus, and many earthly people)

[HisdaughterJen]

Here's the fact... Most bibles intentionally translate the name of God (YHWH, Jehovah, or Yahweh) as "LORD" in order to blur the lines between "the LORD" (specifically Yahweh) and "the lord" (anyone of a ruling class, including Jesus, and many earthly people)
That's the scary part, Gregorian.

If Jesus is not to be worshiped, then there's a big problem with salvation.

Psa 2:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Psa&chapter=2&version=NIV#) Therefore, you kings, be wise;
be warned, you rulers of the earth.
Psa 2:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Psa&chapter=2&version=NIV#) Serve the Lord with fear
and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Psa&chapter=2&version=NIV#) Kiss the Son, lest he be angry
and you be destroyed in your way,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.




Act 4:12 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Act&c=4&v=12&t=NIV#12)Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

Jhn 3:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=3&version=NIV#) “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=3&version=NIV#) For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Jhn 3:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=3&version=NIV#) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son



Jhn 3:34 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=3&version=NIV#) For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.
Jhn 3:35 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=3&version=NIV#) The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands.
Jhn 3:36 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=3&version=NIV#) Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him




What does it mean to believe in Jesus so that you will have eternal life?

Jhn 5:39 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&version=NIV#) You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
Jhn 5:40 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&version=NIV#) yet you refuse to come to me to have life.




Jhn 5:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&version=NIV#) For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Jhn 5:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&version=NIV#) Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Notice, that Jesus never denied that but repeatedly said he was God's son even though calling God His own Father was making himself equal with God.

We are not worthy to come before a Holy God of our own accord.

[The Gregorian]

Jhn 5:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&version=NIV#) For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Jhn 5:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&version=NIV#) Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Notice, that Jesus never denied that but repeatedly said he was God's son even though calling God His own Father was making himself equal with God.


I disagree... notice how it was those who misunderstood him who thought he was claiming equality to God... but Jesus corrected them... gave them answer... saying that he could do NOTHING by himself, but only does as his Father instructed him.... showing he is still God's Son, but still only a servant of God.

Or... do you think he can do nothing himself, but only what he sees himself do because what he does, he also does?

[HisdaughterJen]

I disagree... notice how it was those who misunderstood him who thought he was claiming equality to God... but Jesus corrected them... gave them answer... saying that he could do NOTHING by himself, but only does as his Father instructed him.... showing he is still God's Son, but still only a servant of God.

Or... do you think he can do nothing himself, but only what he sees himself do because what he does, he also does?
It says they were trying to kill him because he claimed to be God's son. It says that claiming to be God's son makes a person equal with God.

In those passages, Jesus goes on to say how he can give eternal life, and has authority to judge people, and that you have to come to Him to have life.

I bet that made those guys REALLY mad because no one can do those things except God.

[The Gregorian]

Aye, it says THEY THOUGHT claiming to be God's son was a blasphamy because they thought the same thing you did... that being someone's son makes you that person.

This doesn't make sense to me, nor did it make sense to Jesus.... which is why he corrected them saying that even though he IS god's SON... he's not equal with God because "the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing."

If you WERE your own father, you can't say "I do nothing by myself, I only do what I see myself doing" ... that makes no sense. If you were equal with your father, but a separate person... why could you do NOTHING by yourself? Why could you ONLY do what you're instructed if you were equal to the person instructing you?


They thought he was claiming to be equal... Jesus DIRECTLY corrected them saying that he wasn't... yet even after this correction, you still believe those trying to kill Jesus more than you believe Jesus... who you think to be a God... yet who you believe less than some closed-minded humans?

[HisdaughterJen]

Aye, it says THEY THOUGHT claiming to be God's son was a blasphamy because they thought the same thing you did... that being someone's son makes you that person.

This doesn't make sense to me, nor did it make sense to Jesus.... which is why he corrected them saying that even though he IS god's SON... he's not equal with God because "the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing."

If you WERE your own father, you can't say "I do nothing by myself, I only do what I see myself doing" ... that makes no sense. If you were equal with your father, but a separate person... why could you do NOTHING by yourself? Why could you ONLY do what you're instructed if you were equal to the person instructing you?


They thought he was claiming to be equal... Jesus DIRECTLY corrected them saying that he wasn't... yet even after this correction, you still believe those trying to kill Jesus more than you believe Jesus... who you think to be a God... yet who you believe less than some closed-minded humans?

In those passages, Jesus goes on to say how he can give eternal life, and has authority to judge people, and that you have to come to Him to have life.






Jhn 5:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=5#) So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him.
Jhn 5:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=5#) Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.”
Jhn 5:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=5#) For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Jhn 5:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=5#) Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
Jhn 5:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=5#) For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these.
Jhn 5:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=5#) For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
Jhn 5:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=5#) Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,
Jhn 5:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=5#) that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
Jhn 5:24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=5#) “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
Jhn 5:25 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=5#) I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
Jhn 5:26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=5#) For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
Jhn 5:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=5#) And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
Jhn 5:28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=5#) “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
Jhn 5:29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=5#)and come out–those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.


I bet that made those guys REALLY mad because no one can do those things except God.


Think about what the Jews believed. They believed in God and that the Christ would be an anointed man along the lines of a guy like Moses....and they still do.

Then along comes a guy who says he is God's own Son (sent from heaven, no less) who claims he has God's power to judge, to give life, and he "works" (heals) on the Sabbath.

According to the Bible they were reading, nobody can do those things except God.

[The Gregorian]

The fact that he says "I can do these things like God can" and "God's given me these authorities" proves that he's not the one that he's like.

If he WERE God.... he would say "I can do these because I am God." ... but he said his God allowed him to do those things.

God allowed many people to preform miracles... Moses performed miracles at least as impressive as Jesus' ... and moses isn't God... He was just who God used to do the acts God allowed.

[woden]

I disagree... notice how it was those who misunderstood him who thought he was claiming equality to God... but Jesus corrected them... gave them answer... saying that he could do NOTHING by himself, but only does as his Father instructed him.... showing he is still God's Son, but still only a servant of God.

Or... do you think he can do nothing himself, but only what he sees himself do because what he does, he also does?
Gregorian, if you look up on the internet "The Catholic Encyclopaedia" and check out the name "Jehovah", notice what the first line says. And then read on. Jen doesn't want to acknowledge the fact that the NWT is an honest work because of what has happened in her past. And this clouds her thinking and judgement. I wish her well, but she hasn't got the truth and will never be satisfied with what she has got. Deep down she knows where the truth really is. They all do. Even the ones who have left know the end of the system is coming but they put it off in their minds. Hope the new campaign from March 1st goes well this year.

[BeforeTheFoundation]

Note: All non-KJV bibles including NKJV are from Alexandrian manuscripts and the Vulgate. Again the Vulgate spent hundreds of years in darkness and does not match any other manuscripts.

I know I am a little late on this but this is just incorrect.

[The Gregorian]

LOL! silly catholics....

"the hidden and mysterious name"
"it is found in the Old Testament (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14526a.htm) 6000 times"

... of course, I don't necessarily trust the catholic encyclopedia above any other... but... at least they're honest sometimes.

[HisdaughterJen]

Gregorian, if you look up on the internet "The Catholic Encyclopaedia" and check out the name "Jehovah", notice what the first line says. And then read on. Jen doesn't want to acknowledge the fact that the NWT is an honest work because of what has happened in her past. And this clouds her thinking and judgement. I wish her well, but she hasn't got the truth and will never be satisfied with what she has got. Deep down she knows where the truth really is. They all do. Even the ones who have left know the end of the system is coming but they put it off in their minds. Hope the new campaign from March 1st goes well this year.
If you don't think I know what's coming in the end times...come on over to Eschatology (where I spend most of my time on this forum) and see what I believe. It most definitely is NOT something that is 'put off in their minds" but is at the forefront of my thinking as I see the times approaching.
Concerning me, you speak of things you know nothing about. I write on this forum often...anyone can see my posts..so why don't you read what I believe before judging me or assuming you know what I believe "deep down". That is an arrogant thing to say by someone who appears to favor resorting to personal attacks instead of truth-seeking when you don't have a leg to stand on in your argument.

But then, you believe that only those who are Jehovah's Witnesses are your brothers and sisters in Christ...I'm just dust doomed to destruction at Armageddon because I don't swallow the "food" prepared by the self-proclaimed "faithful and discreet slave", God's mighty Oracle for mankind on earth today, never mind the FACT that God's Oracle is the Holy Spirit scripturally.

No, indeed, I can't possibly know anything about God by trusting in Him alone, reading His Word and listening to the Holy Spirit. After all, that's "forbidden", a claim subject to scrutiny, and only for the "anointed class" of believers within the Jehovah's Witnesses.

[HisdaughterJen]

LOL! silly catholics....

"the hidden and mysterious name"
"it is found in the Old Testament (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14526a.htm) 6000 times"

... of course, I don't necessarily trust the catholic encyclopedia above any other... but... at least they're honest sometimes.
It's not the name that is found, it's the 4 consonants, Yod Heh Vav Heh....which is why it's a "hidden and mysterious name".

All renderings are only a guess as to what it really is. Jesus taught us to know and pray to God as our Heavenly Father.

[woden]

If you don't think I know what's coming in the end times...come on over to Eschatology (where I spend most of my time on this forum) and see what I believe. It most definitely is NOT something that is 'put off in their minds" but is at the forefront of my thinking as I see the times approaching.
Concerning me, you speak of things you know nothing about. I write on this forum often...anyone can see my posts..so why don't you read what I believe before judging me or assuming you know what I believe "deep down". That is an arrogant thing to say by someone who appears to favor resorting to personal attacks instead of truth-seeking when you don't have a leg to stand on in your argument.

But then, you believe that only those who are Jehovah's Witnesses are your brothers and sisters in Christ...I'm just dust doomed to destruction at Armageddon because I don't swallow the "food" prepared by the self-proclaimed "faithful and discreet slave", God's mighty Oracle for mankind on earth today, never mind the FACT that God's Oracle is the Holy Spirit scripturally.

No, indeed, I can't possibly know anything about God by trusting in Him alone, reading His Word and listening to the Holy Spirit. After all, that's "forbidden", a claim subject to scrutiny, and only for the "anointed class" of believers within the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Who will be saved? The one who endures to the end. That could be you or me and anyone else. But only if we are aware the end is coming, that all who are not found in God's favour will be swept away. It's not like people haven't had fair warning. Noah preached and built the Ark for how many years? Who believed? Not many.

The end is coming, in fact we are living in it right now. What is left to happen? The doing away with religion for one, and when that happens what will be left? Just before Armaggedon the one who has endured to the end.