The way I see it....

[Torah]

All the ways of a person are pure in one's eyes (Proverbs 16:2).

As a rule, people do not do anything that they believe to be wrong.
Those who do wrong have somehow convinced themselves that what they are doing is in fact right.
They justify themselves with ingenious rationalizations.

If we are so susceptible to our minds playing tricks on us and deluding us that what is wrong is right, what can we do to prevent improper behavior?

Solomon provides the answer: Direct your actions toward God, and your thoughts will be right (Proverbs 16:3).

The distortion is greatest when the motivation is, "What do I want?" If we remove ourselves from the picture and instead ask, "What does God want?" the possibility of distortion shrinks.

While there is less distortion in the latter case, we cannot say that distortion is completely absent.
Some people have strange ideas about what God wants.

However, if we take ourselves out of the picture and are motivated to do what God wants, there is greater likelihood that we might consult someone in a position to give us an authoritative opinion as to the will of God.

While this is not foolproof, there is at least a chance of escaping the distortions of rationalization that are dominant when one seeks to satisfy primarily oneself.

Today I shall ...
... try to dedicate myself to doing the will of God, and try to learn what His will is by studying the Torah and accepting guidance from Torah authorities.

Shalom

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

That is a good starting point, and another question a person may ask themselves, is; in what realistic way will prophecy be fulfilled? The reason for that question is because our bibles use a lot of parables.

[debi b]

This should help us to understand that we need to produce fruits worthy of repentance - a call to all.

Yeshua once said "Why are you calling me lord, lord and do not DO what I say?"

[Lulav]

A person is responsible to prepare his heart, but how the tongue speaks is from Adonai.

[Henaynei]

A person is responsible to prepare his heart, but how the tongue speaks is from Adonai.:scratch:


Yaacov

1:25 But if a person looks closely into the perfect Torah, which gives freedom, and continues, becoming not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work it requires, then he will be blessed in what he does. 26 Anyone who thinks he is religiously observant but does not control his tongue is deceiving himself, and his observance counts for nothing.

3:2 For we all stumble in many ways; if someone does not stumble in what he says, he is a mature man who can bridle his whole body. 3 If we put a bit into a horse's mouth to make it obey us, we control its whole body as well. 4 And think of a ship - although it is huge and is driven by strong winds, yet the pilot can steer it wherever he wants with just a small rudder. 5 So too the tongue is a tiny part of the body, yet it boasts great things. See how a little fire sets a whole forest ablaze!6 Yes, the tongue is a fire, a world of wickedness. The tongue is so placed in our body that it defiles every part of it, setting ablaze the whole of our life; and it is set on fire by Gei-Hinnom itself. 7 For people have tamed and continue to tame all kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and sea creatures; 8 but the tongue no one can tame - it is an unstable and evil thing, full of death-dealing poison! 9 With it we bless ADONAI, the Father; and with it we curse people, who were made in the image of God.g 10 Out of the same mouth come blessing and cursing! Brothers, it isn't right for things to be this way. 11 A spring doesn't send both fresh and bitter water from the same opening, does it? 12 Can a fig tree yield olives, my brothers? or a grapevine, figs? Neither does salt water produce fresh.


Kefa Aleph
3:10 For "Whoever wants to love life and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit,


And Yeshua said:

Mattityahu 12

34 You snakes! How can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what overflows from the heart. 35 The good person brings forth good things from his store of good, and the evil person brings forth evil things from his store of evil. 36 Moreover, I tell you this: on the Day of Judgment people will have to give account for every careless word they have spoken; 37 for by your own words you will be acquitted, and by your own words you will be condemned."

Lukas 6
44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit -- figs aren't picked from thorn bushes, nor grapes from a briar patch. 45 The good person produces good things from the store of good in his heart, while the evil person produces evil things from the store of evil in his heart. For his mouth speaks what overflows from his heart.

Over and over again HaShem says that we are responsible for what we say and we will be judged by what we say.... how can we righteously be judged if "how the tongue speaks is from Adonai?"

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[ContraMundum]

I've been trying to say words to this effect for a year on this forum. Good words Torah.

[HadassahSukkot]

this is a good word

[Lulav]

Originally Posted by Lulav
A person is responsible to prepare his heart, but how the tongue speaks is from Adonai.
:scratch:


Yaacov

1:25 But if a person looks closely into the perfect Torah, which gives freedom, and continues, becoming not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work it requires, then he will be blessed in what he does. 26 Anyone who thinks he is religiously observant but does not control his tongue is deceiving himself, and his observance counts for nothing.

3:2 For we all stumble in many ways; if someone does not stumble in what he says, he is a mature man who can bridle his whole body. 3 If we put a bit into a horse's mouth to make it obey us, we control its whole body as well. 4 And think of a ship - although it is huge and is driven by strong winds, yet the pilot can steer it wherever he wants with just a small rudder. 5 So too the tongue is a tiny part of the body, yet it boasts great things. See how a little fire sets a whole forest ablaze!6 Yes, the tongue is a fire, a world of wickedness. The tongue is so placed in our body that it defiles every part of it, setting ablaze the whole of our life; and it is set on fire by Gei-Hinnom itself. 7 For people have tamed and continue to tame all kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and sea creatures; 8 but the tongue no one can tame - it is an unstable and evil thing, full of death-dealing poison! 9 With it we bless ADONAI, the Father; and with it we curse people, who were made in the image of God.g 10 Out of the same mouth come blessing and cursing! Brothers, it isn't right for things to be this way. 11 A spring doesn't send both fresh and bitter water from the same opening, does it? 12 Can a fig tree yield olives, my brothers? or a grapevine, figs? Neither does salt water produce fresh.


Kefa Aleph
3:10 For "Whoever wants to love life and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit,And Yeshua said:

Mattityahu 12

34 You snakes! How can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what overflows from the heart. 35 The good person brings forth good things from his store of good, and the evil person brings forth evil things from his store of evil. 36 Moreover, I tell you this: on the Day of Judgment people will have to give account for every careless word they have spoken; 37 for by your own words you will be acquitted, and by your own words you will be condemned."

Lukas 6
44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit -- figs aren't picked from thorn bushes, nor grapes from a briar patch. 45 The good person produces good things from the store of good in his heart, while the evil person produces evil things from the store of evil in his heart. For his mouth speaks what overflows from his heart.Over and over again HaShem says that we are responsible for what we say and we will be judged by what we say.... how can we righteously be judged if "how the tongue speaks is from Adonai?"

b'Shalom
HenayneiThat is something great to ponder, I think what it means is that if you turn your will and your heart over to the L-RD the words that issue forth from your mouth will come from him. If your heart belongs to 'someone else' then those words will you speak.

Torah quoted Proverbs, 16:2 , but What I quoted was the first verse, I thought it should be included. :)

[Henaynei]

I agree context is always important ... :)

[nasa1]

All the ways of a person are pure in one's eyes (Proverbs 16:2).

As a rule, people do not do anything that they believe to be wrong.
Those who do wrong have somehow convinced themselves that what they are doing is in fact right.
They justify themselves with ingenious rationalizations.

If we are so susceptible to our minds playing tricks on us and deluding us that what is wrong is right, what can we do to prevent improper behavior?

Solomon provides the answer: Direct your actions toward God, and your thoughts will be right (Proverbs 16:3).

The distortion is greatest when the motivation is, "What do I want?" If we remove ourselves from the picture and instead ask, "What does God want?" the possibility of distortion shrinks.

While there is less distortion in the latter case, we cannot say that distortion is completely absent.
Some people have strange ideas about what God wants.

However, if we take ourselves out of the picture and are motivated to do what God wants, there is greater likelihood that we might consult someone in a position to give us an authoritative opinion as to the will of God.

While this is not foolproof, there is at least a chance of escaping the distortions of rationalization that are dominant when one seeks to satisfy primarily oneself.

Today I shall ...
... try to dedicate myself to doing the will of God, and try to learn what His will is by studying the Torah and accepting guidance from Torah authorities.

Shalom




This is a really great post with some really good advice.


Would you be interested in learning from a Zen Buddhist who loves Jesus like you? Doesn't the Talmud say that we should learn from everyone, only the unwise would think they could not learn something from someone. G_d teaches all people.

Please consider learning from this man. His name is Thich Nhat Hanh. You can look up that name on the internet and see what you find.He has become one of my favorite teachers. I truly believe that G-d speaks through him about many things.
One of the greatest things I have learned is mindfulness - being mindful of other people and where they are at and being aware that they have suffered in life and to try and think of them before yourself.

For example, you encounter someone who is hostile. What should you do? You could get annoyed and talk back, or report him or her to authorities (putting off the problem so you do not have to deal with the person personally) or be mindful. Try and look beyond the situation to the person. Take some time and breathe mindfully before you deal with the situatiion. Anger does not result in the righteousness of G_d.

So you can breathe in an out, and be calm, and think about that person as someone who is loved by G-d and who is very special.Why do they act like that? Why did they treat you badly? Could it be that they have not been treated very well, so now they have been become heartbroken and so talk with hurtful words? You see what I am saying. There is so much to people. We all have had our hearts broken and we have been hurt and we need to be understood.


This is mindfulness.


But anyway, your advice is very good. Just a thought: would you accept G-d suggesting that some torah commands are spiritually fulfilled in Christ? Would that go against your will, wouild you be able to accept it? You do not have to answer, it is just that some have had a hard time realizing some commands are no longer valid. It offends them. Perhaps we resist change.

Direct your actions toward God, and your thoughts will be right (Proverbs 16:3).

Right thinking and right speech (all a part of mindfulness) can be attained when we know how G_d wants us to interact and treat people.


NASA

[debi b]

Personally I would rather live next door to a Budist than a pew sitting church goer. Budist do in fact do a far better job dying to themselves - but why do they do it? They lead to different ends - but make better neighbors in this world ;)

[nasa1]

Personally I would rather live next door to a Budist than a pew sitting church goer. Budist do in fact do a far better job dying to themselves - but why do they do it? They lead to different ends - but make better neighbors in this world ;)


Yes I agree wholeheartedly, Buddhists really value the concept of dying to your self and having the Buddha nature come alive day by day in all of us. My favorite Buddhist teacher, Thich Nhat Hanh, says that this is just like having the Christ nature spring up in ourselves.

I really like Master Nhat because he values other religions and he says that we cannot be happy if we do not value our roots. For example, he says a Jewish person who grew up in Judaism and then converts to a different religion should never forget where he/she came from and keep those Jewish traditions alive. He says this honors your ancestors.

nasa

[Lulav]

But anyway, your advice is very good. Just a thought: would you accept G-d suggesting that some torah commands are spiritually fulfilled in Christ? Would that go against your will, wouild you be able to accept it? You do not have to answer, it is just that some have had a hard time realizing some commands are no longer valid. It offends them. Perhaps we resist change.

"I am the LORD, I change not."

Malachi 3:6

[Henaynei]

Just a thought: would you accept G-d suggesting that some torah commands are spiritually fulfilled in Christ? Would that go against your will, wouild you be able to accept it? You do not have to answer, it is just that some have had a hard time realizing some commands are no longer valid. It offends them. Perhaps we resist change.



Right thinking and right speech (all a part of mindfulness) can be attained when we know how G_d wants us to interact and treat people.


NASA First you say Torah has changed, then you say the way to "attain" right thinking/speech is to know Torah (i.e. Torah instructs us "how G-d wants us to treat people")

G-d would never "suggest" that which He said was eternal and forever was now "spiritually fulfilled" i.e. "no longer valid" - He is "the same yesterday, today and forever," in whom "there is now shadow or turning." who "is not a man that He should lie" but all of whose ways are perfect and true.

"not one stroke or point shall pass away until *all* are fulfilled"

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."

"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter in the Torah to become void."

[nasa1]

"I am the LORD, I change not."

Malachi 3:6



I agree, but from looking at the Bible and God's history of dealing with mankind, it is obvious that He has changed His ways of dealing with us and with sin. One example is going from animal sacrifices, to all sin being paid for by the blood of Yeshua.



I put for the initial question because I wondered if anybody here could possible think that perhaps the Torah way that they think is God's will for their lives or mankind might actually not be anymore, or that some commandments have changed. Perhaps the way we observe certain commandments are different than from when ancient Israel observed them.

NASA

[nasa1]

First you say Torah has changed, then you say the way to "attain" right thinking/speech is to know Torah (i.e. Torah instructs us "how G-d wants us to treat people")

G-d would never "suggest" that which He said was eternal and forever was now "spiritually fulfilled" i.e. "no longer valid" - He is "the same yesterday, today and forever," in whom "there is now shadow or turning." who "is not a man that He should lie" but all of whose ways are perfect and true.

"not one stroke or point shall pass away until *all* are fulfilled"

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."

"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter in the Torah to become void."



In my opinion, the Torah of G_d is the totally fulfilled by the commandments to love each other. So yes, we can attain right actions and right speech when we observe the Torah (loving each other.)


The original poster said that we all think we are pure and that everything we do is right. Well, could that also be true about the Torah and how you or I might look at it? We could be keeping many Torah commandments, thinking our way is pure but actually G_d is not happy with us, nor are we doing his will. To suggest that mankind always thinks his way is pure and right before G_d but not apply that same thought to yourself just because you observe certain torah commandments is extremely self-righteous.


Look at this passage from Hebrews: it says that certain laws are set aside because they were useless!


Hebrews 11:19 nasb
Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?

12For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

13For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar.

14For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests.

15And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek,

16who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life.

17For it is attested of Him,
"YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER
ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."

18For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness

19(for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.







If commandments can be set aside for something better, then we realize that in Yeshua all the commandments are fulfilled and that everyone in Him is totally blameless, whether they keep the sabbath or not! For Yeshua is greater than the Law. If the Law cannot bring perfection to a person then we should never judge a person by it.


Say there are three groups, A, B, and C.


Now group A keeps the whole ten commandments very well and all the feast days.


Group B keeps the ten commandments, kosher rules, and tithing.



Group C keeps the ten but does not believe that we need to keep kosher or tithe.



Now tell me: which is better in the eyes of God? This is all of us. We do not keep God's Laws. Never have, never will. When we break one law, we have broken them all. We are wretched sinners! And all my precious BuddHist friends and all your fellow Jews in Judaism will never come to the Lord until they see how wretched they are!


NASA

[visionary]

We do not keep God's Laws. Never have, never will. When we break one law, we have broken them all. We are wretched sinners! Then how does one live righteous?

Mt 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Mt 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I believe God will give us the Holy Spirit in full measure to live perfectly righteous lives before Him. But until we are ready to submit to His Will, it will not happen. The first thing will be for us to believe that we can live without sin.

[Lulav]

I agree, but from looking at the Bible and God's history of dealing with mankind, it is obvious that He has changed His ways of dealing with us and with sin. One example is going from animal sacrifices, to all sin being paid for by the blood of Yeshua.


I put for the initial question because I wondered if anybody here could possible think that perhaps the Torah way that they think is God's will for their lives or mankind might actually not be anymore, or that some commandments have changed. Perhaps the way we observe certain commandments are different than from when ancient Israel observed them.

NASA


Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Yeshua may have given the best insight ever into Torah but he didn't change it. Even as a boy the Torah teachers were stunned at the grasp he had for it, wisdom and knowledge of Torah far and above his years and that of many a sage."Don't assume that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. One of the definitions of the greek word translated 'destroy' is to 'unloose.' If you understand this regarding the law, the Torah you will understand what Yeshua said when he gave the authority to Peter by the 'keys of the kingdom' and what should be bound and loosed, Many believe this was transferred to every Pope since and that he can , at will change G-ds Torah, and then the next one can change it back, but it does not. :)

[LittleLambofJesus]

One of the definitions of the greek word translated 'destroy' is to 'unloose.' If you understand this regarding the law, the Torah you will understand what Yeshua said when he gave the authority to Peter by the 'keys of the kingdom' and what should be bound and loosed, Many believe this was transferred to every Pope since and that he can , at will change G-ds Torah, and then the next one can change it back, but it does not. :)
Hi. That appears to be correct.
Most translations use the english word "Apollon" for that greek word in Revel 9:11, but it is also the word meaning "unlooser".

The OC Hebrew Israelites were released from Egypt because of the Destroyer YHWH sent against the Egyptians.

This event is similar, but I view this as the loosing of the Jews/Israelites [edit by staff] by Faith in the Blood of the True Passover Lamb, JESUS Christ.

Pretty interesting that word is used in Luke 21 concerning "un-loosing". I read the Bible as all fulfilled myself. Thoughts? Shalom.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Luke 21:23 "Woe yet to the-ones in belly having, and to those giving suck, in those/ekeinaiV <1565>, the days.
For shall be great distress on the Land, and Wrath/orgh <3709> in the People, These/toutw <5129>";
28 Beginning yet to be becoming the-these, up-bend ye!, and lift up! the heads of ye, thru-that is nearing/eggizei <1448> (5719) the redemption/apolutrwsiV <629> of ye [Daniel 12/Reve 19,20]

Reve 9:11 and they are having on them a king, the messenger of the abyss, name to him to-Hebrew, Abaddon/abaddwn <3>, and in the greecian name he is having Apollyon/apolluwn <623>.

Exodus 12:22 And you take a bunch of hyssop and you dip in the blood which in bason and you touch to the lintel and to two of the jambs from the blood that in basin and you not shall go forth man from portal of house of him til morning.
Exodus 12:23 And YHWH passes to strike the Egyptians and He sees the blood on the lintel and on two of the jambs and YHWH passes over the portal and not He shall allow the ruiner/07843 shachath to come to houses of you to strike

[nasa1]

Then how does one live righteous?

Mt 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Mt 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I believe God will give us the Holy Spirit in full measure to live perfectly righteous lives before Him. But until we are ready to submit to His Will, it will not happen. The first thing will be for us to believe that we can live without sin.




We live through JESUS, in whom ALL the righteous requirements of the Law are met! Praise the Lord, we are totally blameless and have become the nrighteousness of God!

Because of Christ, no sin is imputed to us, but we still commit sins every day, breaking the whole Law every day - but God looks at us through the Blood and we are forgiven!

But I like your zeal Visionary, in wanting to be sin free. Unfortunately, as long as we are human beings with corrupt bodies (bodies that have not been regenerated and made like unto Christ's body) - we will sin. This is why grace is so important. Visionary, if it was possible to be sin free just by willing it and wanting it badly enough, don't you think that person could have been an example for others, and would have taught others how to do it? It has never been done. It is impossible. Only Yeshua was sin free.

NASA

[nasa1]

I have a question for anyone who wants to answer it:


Jesus said that anyone who breaks the least of the commandments and teaches others to do the same will be considered the least.

But he also said that the least person in the Kingdom of God is greater than John the Baptist - a holy man who practiced Torah.


How can that be?



NASA

[nasa1]

First you say Torah has changed, then you say the way to "attain" right thinking/speech is to know Torah (i.e. Torah instructs us "how G-d wants us to treat people")

G-d would never "suggest" that which He said was eternal and forever was now "spiritually fulfilled" i.e. "no longer valid" - He is "the same yesterday, today and forever," in whom "there is now shadow or turning." who "is not a man that He should lie" but all of whose ways are perfect and true.

"not one stroke or point shall pass away until *all* are fulfilled"

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."

"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter in the Torah to become void."



Jesus said that His words would never pass away, but as for the Torah, He did say the Torah would pass away when all is fulfilled. Jesus is not the author of the Torah, Moses wrote the Torah, and God the Father also authored some of it.

nasa

[Henaynei]

Jesus said that His words would never pass away, but as for the Torah, He did say the Torah would pass away when all is fulfilled. Jesus is not the author of the Torah, Moses wrote the Torah, and G-d the Father also authored some of it.

nasawell, see, that is one area in which differing in certain areas of theology has unintended consequences... :)

I fully believe that Yeshua is HaShem and that HaShem gave the Torah - thus Yeshua both gave and is the Torah, Moshe` merely transcribed it ...

[nasa1]

Oh, I see. I ignorantly assumed when I saw your icon that you did not see Yeshua as God. Well, carry on then. :)

NASA

[Henaynei]

Oh, I see. I ignorantly assumed when I saw your icon that you did not see Yeshua as God. Well, carry on then. :)

NASAThat is quite alright - I (DH & I, that is) happen to be a non-Trinitarian who believes that Yeshua is HaShem ... AND who is not a modalist, although most are not able to understand placing "non-Trinitarian" and "Yeshua is HsShem" together without having to use the label Modalist to categorize it :)

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[nasa1]

A thought on our sinfulness:

I believe that the more we realize our sinfulness before the Holy Lord, the more we will depend less on works and only on the Righteousness of God and His Grace found only in Yeshua.

We will have more confidence in what Yeshua did on the cross for mankind and less on what we do.

We will not be condemned by the accuser for the things we failed at because we know our Redeemer lives and is always interceding for us.

I like to imagine myself clinging to the cross, the death penalty written against me nailed to the cross.

I will never forget as a little girl watching a tv movie about Jesus and seeing the Roman soldier pierce the side of Jesus and then the blood and water flowed out onto the ground. I have kept that image in my memory all my life. Thank God for the cross.


There's power in the Blood of the Lamb of God!
It takes away the sins of the world!


I am the righteousness of God!

Whoo! How could an ex-prostitue attain that? Only by the grace of God and His love which is richly poured out on us through Christ Jesus the Lord.

nasa

[nasa1]

Henaynei wrote:


That is quite alright - I (DH & I, that is) happen to be a non-Trinitarian who believes that Yeshua is HaShem ... AND who is not a modalist, although most are not able to understand placing "non-Trinitarian" and "Yeshua is HsShem" together without having to use the label Modalist to categorize it

b'Shalom
Henaynei


It's never enough for some people, hey? The labels. Like you believe Jesus is God, and the Father God, but I guess you see the Spirit as the power of God (not a person.) So mainstream Messianic Judaism would still not accept you as a true believer.


And if you believed that Jesus was a man who was a perfect representation of the Father, but not God Himself, yet believed the Spirit was a person, you would still not be accepted.



There will always be someone to label us. This is where I'm at: the only way I could see Jesus being God is in the Oneness Pentecostal sense.

But even if I did go that route, the mainstreamers would still consider me a confused woman.

So we should all just stick with what we know. (for now) :)

nasa

[Wags]

Jesus said that His words would never pass away, but as for the Torah, He did say the Torah would pass away when all is fulfilled. Jesus is not the author of the Torah, Moses wrote the Torah, and God the Father also authored some of it.

nasa




Two points:

1. Moses isn't the author of the Torah - the Holy One of Israel is. Moses was just the scribe that wrote it down.

2. All is not fullfilled yet (heaven and earth have NOT passed away) so Torah is still in effect.


2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is valuable for teaching the truth, convicting of sin, correcting faults and training in right living.

[debi b]

That is quite alright - I (DH & I, that is) happen to be a non-Trinitarian who believes that Yeshua is HaShem ... AND who is not a modalist, although most are not able to understand placing "non-Trinitarian" and "Yeshua is HsShem" together without having to use the label Modalist to categorize it :)

b'Shalom
Henaynei

Modalist doesn't describe me either ;) Why do I (DH & I, that is) think Yeshua is HaShem - how much time do you have? :)

[nasa1]

Two points:

1. Moses isn't the author of the Torah - the Holy One of Israel is. Moses was just the scribe that wrote it down.

2. All is not fullfilled yet (heaven and earth have NOT passed away) so Torah is still in effect.






I believe that Moses authored many commandments. If Jesus is God, as some of you claim, and then He says, "You have heard it was said" and then quote from the Torah, adding, "But I say to you..."
proves that God did not author many Torah commands, and so Jesus aka God had to change them to the right commandment. Even though I do not see Jesus as God, but only as His human representative, I believe He had the authority to change things that were wrong - and so He said that Moses gave commands because their hearts were hard, but that is not the way God intended it to be.


Messianics have to stop worshipping the Torah. It is a sin. You are in slavery if you try and keep the whole Torah. Be free.









Galatians 5:1-7 NIV

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.


Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

7You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you.





Obviously some Judaizers were trying to get the Galatians to accept the Mosaic Covenent as a convert to Judaism. Paul is against this with all his heart: you cannot be a convert and a disciple of Jesus at the same time. He says that anyone who would suggest such a thing is being influenced by satan (by implication, since Paul said that the persuasion to convert did not come from the one that calls us - God.)


But Paul says something very interesting. He says that if anyone gets converted by act of circumcision, that person is obligated to keep the whole Torah. Is not Paul suggesting that to be obligated to keep the whole Torah is to be in slavery?



Messianic Judaism preaches that the whole Torah is to be kept. Isn't there a problem here?



NASA

[Henaynei]

I believe that Moses authored many commandments. If Jesus is God, as some of you claim, and then He says, "You have heard it was said" and then quote from the Torah, adding, "But I say to you..."

proves that G-d did not author many Torah commands, and so Jesus aka God had to change them to the right commandment. NASA

that's right.... hmmmm let's see some of the commandments G-d did not give us and which Yeshua "corrected" :D


Matthew 5:21-26 21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not murder; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, F10 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=mt+5:21&version=kjv&context=1&showtools=1#F10) shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 5:27-32 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Matthew 5:33-37 33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Matthew 5:43-48 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;


What Yeshua was doing here is what rabbis have always done, brought the commandment to light within our persona lives, to show us our heart attitude and then put a fence around the Law.....

Tell me, which of the above laws would you say G-d *did not* command?:
how about Thou shall not commit adultery...no??,
well then how about love thy neighbor?? ...no??,
well then maybe thou shall not murder, not that one either??
well what about thou shalt not forswear (go back on, renounce or disavow) an oath ....???

[debi b]

Messianics have to stop worshipping the Torah. It is a sin. You are in slavery if you try and keep the whole Torah. Be free.


I am having a hard time finding a question in this.....

[Wags]

I am having a hard time finding a question in this.....

Yup - sounds a whole lot like preachin' to me!

[Lulav]

seems more like flaming, baiting and trolling to me.................

[Bananna]

I have a question for anyone who wants to answer it:


Jesus said that anyone who breaks the least of the commandments and teaches others to do the same will be considered the least.

But he also said that the least person in the Kingdom of God is greater than John the Baptist - a holy man who practiced Torah.


How can that be?



NASA
Two totally different theological statements cannot be used to define one another.

Those that teach antiTorah will be least in the Kingdom of God.

Those that are living Torah can be greater than those dying for Torah righteousness if they remain faithful and do not loose hope.

John was in a hard situation and loosing hope.

bananna

[Lulav]

I believe that Moses authored many commandments. If Jesus is God, as some of you claim, and then He says, "You have heard it was said" and then quote from the Torah, adding, "But I say to you..."
proves that God did not author many Torah commands, and so Jesus aka God had to change them to the right commandment. Even though I do not see Jesus as God, but only as His human representative, I believe He had the authority to change things that were wrong - and so He said that Moses gave commands because their hearts were hard, but that is not the way God intended it to be.


Messianics have to stop worshipping the Torah. It is a sin. You are in slavery if you try and keep the whole Torah. Be free.









Galatians 5:1-7 NIV

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.


Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

7You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you.





Obviously some Judaizers were trying to get the Galatians to accept the Mosaic Covenent as a convert to Judaism. Paul is against this with all his heart: you cannot be a convert and a disciple of Jesus at the same time. He says that anyone who would suggest such a thing is being influenced by satan (by implication, since Paul said that the persuasion to convert did not come from the one that calls us - God.)


But Paul says something very interesting. He says that if anyone gets converted by act of circumcision, that person is obligated to keep the whole Torah. Is not Paul suggesting that to be obligated to keep the whole Torah is to be in slavery?



Messianic Judaism preaches that the whole Torah is to be kept. Isn't there a problem here?



NASA


Nasa, what do you do with this verse then?

All scripture is given by inspiration of G-d and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness 2 Tim 3:16 ( written before the NT was even compiled so only was speaking of the Tenach. )

What do you make of deut 31:24-27?

[Lulav]

Two totally different theological statements cannot be used to define one another.

Those that teach antiTorah will be least in the Kingdom of God.

Those that are living Torah can be greater than those dying for Torah righteousness if they remain faithful and do not loose hope.

John was in a hard situation and loosing hope.

bananna John was loosing hope? I think out of everyone that existed in that day he alone knew of the true hope and had accomplished what he was conceived and born to do. His whole life was wrapped up in preparing the way. Remember Yeshua said that they would do greater things than he did, now is that because he lost hope?

The question was this:

Jesus said that anyone who breaks the least of the commandments and teaches others to do the same will be considered the least.

But he also said that the least person in the Kingdom of God is greater than John the Baptist - a holy man who practiced Torah.


How can that be?And the answer is plain

Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Immerser: but he that is least in the kingdom of G-d is greater than he.

Seems like a riddle, huh? :)

But it is not if you look at two key words there,

born of women- that which is below or earthly or fleshly
kingdom of G-d- that which is from above or heavenly ( kingdom of heaven)

Yes, John was the greatest prophet ever being born of a woman, but of those born from above the least still is greater than he in that respect. It does not say he is least in the kingdom, but only about his status as a human being born of mankind, compared to those born from above or being reborn, which I am sure he was.

Let's let scripture define scripture: :)

In the opening of John: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of G-d , even to them that believe on his name, which were born, not of blood ( being born in the flesh is through the blood shed in childbirth) , nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of G-d.( He choses whom is his and whom he grants eternal salvation to) ( 1:12-13)

Yeshua said to that certain man, that man of the Sanhedrin ( Nicodemus) who came to him secretly: Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of G-d- 3:3
And

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of G-d. That which is born of the flesh is flesh that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.

So in conclusion, the least of those born of the Spirit into the kingdom of G-d are greater than one ( only) born of a woman even the greatest of all the prophets. But this doesn't mean that John was not also born again. :)