Practical Morality

[desmalia]

I’m posing this in the debate area because
a) I’m not a member of CC, and
b) the subjects being discussed are highly emotional. So this is probably the best place for it.

I’ve seen countless threads debating things like homosexual behavior and abortion. And as conservatives, I think we’re all agreed on these issues and what the Bible says about them.

I’d like to use this thread to stretch our brains a little more than that though. Even though this is the debate area, I’d like to keep this thread from becoming just another endless debate on whether these things are sinful or not. This is the conservative area, so I’m hoping we can simply lay the debates aside and fall back on Scripture as our base.

I know there are always at least a few liberals who like to come here for debate as well. Of course your comments are welcome here, but I ask you to keep pro-gay and pro-abortion comments/arguments/debates to one of the many other threads that area available. I would like this thread to be of a different nature. Thank you in advance for your respect and cooperation.

What I would like to discuss is how we apply these things in our lives. Sure we know what Scripture says about what sin is. Agreed. Good. The more difficult question is: how are we ministering to those who embrace these sins, both inside and outside of the church? What is the correct way to approach them? On the one hand, we cannot condone or turn a blind eye to the sinful behavior. But on the other, we’re dealing with lost souls that are in need of compassion and godly love. From a human perspective, this is quite a challenge. We saw Christ doing this constantly, speaking harshly at times, and kindly at others, but always with a deep, abiding love for the person He was speaking to. Let’s look at the world around us today (both CF and real life), and discuss some real world application to the truths of Scripture.

Note: I have brought up abortion and homosexual behavior specifically because they are much-debated "hot-button" issues that I would like us to discuss in a different light. But other forms of sin such as adultery, apostacy, abuse, etc. may certainly be discussed as well.

[Latreia]

What I would like to discuss is how we apply these things in our lives. Sure we know what Scripture says about what sin is. Agreed. Good.

The more difficult question is: how are we ministering to those who embrace these sins, both inside and outside of the church?

What is the correct way to approach them?

Perhaps there is some difference to be noted in two areas of applying these ideals in the lives of Christians:

First, the call to mission, in which God selects those whom He knows will have the special gifts to devote their lives to the tasks involved.

Certain denominations are dedicated to such salvation ministry of lost souls. That work requires a depth of duty and faith that is very strong, long with the extra depth of compassion and patient ministry involved.

Second, there is the life of simple Christians who strive to serve the Lord and follow Jesus in their every day family needs or in the way in which they conduct their personal lives, including friends and congregations, and other fellow Christians.

Thus, while some works in charity and in their attitudes towards all they meet, their ideals are expressed in their speech and in their kindly manners.

That is another very important way in which to "witness" to others. Not every single Christian can always spread themselves beyond their families nor have the calling to seek to go out in mission.


On the one hand, we cannot condone or turn a blind eye to the sinful behavior. But on the other, we’re dealing with lost souls that are in need of compassion and godly love. From a human perspective, this is quite a challenge.

We saw Christ doing this constantly, speaking harshly at times, and kindly at others, but always with a deep, abiding love for the person He was speaking to.

Let’s look at the world around us today (both CF and real life), and discuss some real world application to the truths of Scripture.



Not all Christians are at the place in their faith where they have the strength and depth of wisdom that Jesus had. And therefore, should we ask of them to just attempt such work for God?

Christians that strive to share their faith and love and devotion to Jesus Christ need only find their own special ways and circumstances to live their faith for all to see. They will also, in the doing, see many miracles and be touched by God in so many ways that later they can also tell others what their blessings meant.

Now, others who are called to mission, I will hope to read their posts.

Thank you.

:groupray:

[desmalia]

Perhaps there is some difference to be noted in two areas of applying these ideals in the lives of Christians:

First, the call to mission, in which God selects those whom He knows will have the special gifts to devote their lives to the tasks involved.

Certain denominations are dedicated to such salvation ministry of lost souls. That work requires a depth of duty and faith that is very strong, long with the extra depth of compassion and patient ministry involved.

Second, there is the life of simple Christians who strive to serve the Lord and follow Jesus in their every day family needs or in the way in which they conduct their personal lives, including friends and congregations, and other fellow Christians.

Thus, while some works in charity and in their attitudes towards all they meet, their ideals are expressed in their speech and in their kindly manners.

That is another very important way in which to "witness" to others. Not every single Christian can always spread themselves beyond their families nor have the calling to seek to go out in mission.
Respectfully, I disagree with some of this. We are all called to share the Gospel both in word and deed. This means living it, and also speaking it. I certainly agree that not all are called to travel to distant countries to preach the Gospel. But we are all called to share it in our lives and to reach out to our communities. And yes, some have the gifts of prophesy or teaching, etc. whereas some (like myself) have a more difficult time with words and speaking boldly. But praise God, it is His word and His Spirit that reaches the heart, not the messenger or the delivery method.

Living the Gospel is perhaps at times the more difficult task. But it is not intended to replace sharing the Gospel message itself. The two are equally vital and intertwined.


Not all Christians are at the place in their faith where they have the strength and depth of wisdom that Jesus had. And therefore, should we ask of them to just attempt such work for God?Absolutely! God not only asks it of us, he commands it. The early church was made up of new converts who were young in the faith. That did not stop them from obeying and ministering to their communities (which were generally filled with pagan rituals and beliefs). We must consider our immaturity in the faith to be a reason to learn and grow, not an excuse to stay silent. None of us has the depth of wisdom of Christ yet. But we have the Scriptures to lean on, and we know we can rest in that. And we have the Holy Spirit working on our sanctification, both through our ministry and for the purpose of it. We ourselves are blessed by remaining open to sharing the Gospel with the lost at all times and being willing to go forth boldy, regardless of our gifts and talents.

Christians that strive to share their faith and love and devotion to Jesus Christ need only find their own special ways and circumstances to live their faith for all to see. They will also, in the doing, see many miracles and be touched by God in so many ways that later they can also tell others what their blessings meant.

I totally agree with you there. Sharing the Gospel in our lives is not a cold, preachy endeavor. It is a part of our daily relationships with others.

But we must be ready for the opportunities to share the Gospel with the lost. We don't know when God will bring people into our lives so that He can use us to share His love.

On a personal note, I am certainly not the type to stand at the pulpit! I am very introverted, in fact. However, I've come across many circumstances in life that were perfect opportunities to share Christ in both word and deed (shamefully, I have not always taken advantage of these opportunities). I'm sure many others here have as well.

I have worked with and become friends with women who have had abortions and are pro choice, and with lesbians and gay men. I'm sure many others here have as well. Certainly we come across many on CF, let alone IRL. Shall we hide behind "good deeds" or speak the truth in love? And if we are to speak the truth to them in love, how so?

[edb19]

not speaking for my church or anyone else here - just my 2 cents worth.

1. Re: homosexuality
That I'm aware of I don't know any practicing homosexuals who are inside the church - not to say there aren't any, I just don't know any. However I do know practicing homosexuals who are not practicing Christians. One gentleman in particular is a relative by marriage - I've known him for ~30 years and I love him dearly. To be honest I've never discussed his lifestyle with him - he would take it as a personal affront and it would most likely end our relationship and that isn't something I'm willing to do. So I love him and I pray for him regularly - that God opens his eyes, that he repents and believes on in the Lord.
Might well be copping out on my part - but there you have it.
If it were someone within my church - my response would be very different - then I'd be looking at the Scriptural stance on admonishment.

2. Regarding those who've had abortions - sadly I think all too often we as Christians don't do the right thing. We (conservative Christians) make our pro-life stance so very clear that I think we sometimes isolate those who've had an abortion and are in need of forgiveness and reconciliation. Given the numbers of abortions performed annually - I can pretty much guarantee that there are women sitting in each of our churches on Sundays who've had an abortion - and are probably keeping it secret because they're afraid of how the knowledge would be received. Chances are excellent that these women (and also their spouses) are seriously hurting, need counseling and are sitting in silence not knowing how to bring it up. Scripture makes it clear that God forgives all sins of those who are truly repentant. We, as Christians, should do no less.

[Latreia]

Then I wonder why Jesus only called 12?

[Criada]

I think these two issues are very different... certainly in the case of non-Christians.
If a non-Christian is living a homosexual lifestyle, preaching that it is sin seems pointless. If they don't accept God, then they are unlikely to be moved by it. And since this sin is no worse than any other, why should we be judging them? Our job is to show Christ's love, share the gospel, and pray. And yes, sharing the gospel must involve some preaching of sin and judgement, but not in a way that makes their sin any worse than anyone else's.
Obviously, this is different if the person concerned is a Christian, since an openly sinful lifestyle is an affront to God. But - again, there are many in our churches who are habitual gossips, who are envious.. We must try to bring all sinners to repentance, not just one group.


The abortion issue is different, in that a life is at stake, and I think we must always do all we can to prevent an abortion happening. But - this is more likely to happen if we love and respect the woman than if we judge and reject her!
Women who have had abortions are no more guilty of sin before God than I am... if they have repented, God has forgiven and removed the sin. We need to minister His love to these hurting women, not judge them




NB I am not accusing anyone here of being judgmental, just reflecting the attitudes I have seen all too often amongst Christians.

[DerSchweik]

What I would like to discuss is how we apply these things in our lives. Sure we know what Scripture says about what sin is. Agreed. Good. The more difficult question is: how are we ministering to those who embrace these sins, both inside and outside of the church? What is the correct way to approach them? On the one hand, we cannot condone or turn a blind eye to the sinful behavior. But on the other, we’re dealing with lost souls that are in need of compassion and godly love. From a human perspective, this is quite a challenge. We saw Christ doing this constantly, speaking harshly at times, and kindly at others, but always with a deep, abiding love for the person He was speaking to. Let’s look at the world around us today (both CF and real life), and discuss some real world application to the truths of Scripture.




Personally, I think one of the difficulties we face w/r to effectively addressing these issues as Christians is that we are oft tempted to make them "the issue" when we reach out to someone we either know or suspect is involved in one of these behaviors. We see a buddy living with his girlfriend and we feel compelled to talk to him about immorality; we see a friend who spends all their time in a bar and we discuss drunkenness, and so forth.

But we can, in these temptations too easily forget these behaviors are but one aspect of a person's entire life - a life that person is intimately and keenly aware of more than we are. If we ignore (whether on purpose or through naivete) the person as a whole, and reduce their life experience (that which has contributed so significantly to who they are today) to a single act or behavior, well we can lose credibility instantly with them as being judgmental or worse, interventionists with a singular goal - to change their behavior.

I am reminded of the story of the woman at the well. Jesus knew full well the nature of this woman's life - and He let the woman know He knew. But He did not make that the point of His discussion with her; rather, He spoke with her about worshipping God, about how God wishes to be worshipped, about His Christ - and He reveals Himself to her as the Christ. But her response is, IMO telling. She goes back to her townspeople and tells them Jesus knew all the things she had done! In speaking to her directly about God and how to worship God, He convicted her indirectly about her lifestyle.

I was fully content driving around in my 22 year old car - so much so I didn't realize how "old" it was until my wife's car was totalled and we had to get a newer one. It is only a couple years old, but boy is it nice by comparison! It has all the "bells and whistles" mine doesn't. Only then, once I experienced the contrast did I view my ancient heap for what it really was - once I experienced something radically better.

Personally, I don't think this woman needed to be told her behavior was wrong (which isn't always the case, admittedly). I think what Jesus felt she needed was a shift in her values, something worthy of valuing more than her current lifestyle. While He made it clear He was fully aware of her behavior, He contrasted the negatives of her lifestyle radically with something of much greater value - God.

And in the process, He won her heart - and John says "many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, 'He told me all the things I have done.'" (Jn 4) - which was true - but the full truth was that He spent much more time telling her about something infinitely better.

For me, this is just one of the many examples of how Jesus demonstrated grace in a practical and fruitful way, and is something I hope I can learn to emulate in my life.

Great thread! :thumbsup:

[desmalia]

Thank you for the comments, everyone! This is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping for. :clap: not speaking for my church or anyone else here - just my 2 cents worth.

1. Re: homosexuality
That I'm aware of I don't know any practicing homosexuals who are inside the church - not to say there aren't any, I just don't know any. However I do know practicing homosexuals who are not practicing Christians. One gentleman in particular is a relative by marriage - I've known him for ~30 years and I love him dearly. To be honest I've never discussed his lifestyle with him - he would take it as a personal affront and it would most likely end our relationship and that isn't something I'm willing to do. So I love him and I pray for him regularly - that God opens his eyes, that he repents and believes on in the Lord.
Might well be copping out on my part - but there you have it.
This is a great example. I really believe that sharing the Gospel is a personalized experience. It's not just pointing a finger and condemning or reading off a tract, etc.
And I certainly wouldn't suggest that the minute we run into a practicing homosexual we must start preaching to them about it. I guess I've just so often found that once they discover I'm a Christian, they tend to bring up the conversation. Most often it's quite confrontational. Comments like "why do you follow a god that hates gays like me?", or "so does that mean you hate me too?", etc. This is something I tend to think of as an opening. A chance to share Christ with them. I think this is when we can be honest with them about sin and the nature of God, but also to show them that believers are not called to hate them.

Another issue that I struggle with (and if anyone else here has too, please share) is when I spend time with someone who is very open about their sexual lifestyle, to a degree that it flavours their discussion and behavior. And they'll want you to join in on that conversation in the same way. This really equates to condoning the sin, which I have a problem with. I don't want to come off as judgmental, but there is a line to be drawn. And it's a tough line in this case. This is a different kind of sin than so many others that we see, because it can be so engrained into every detail of the person's life. For instance, a gay man who prefers his friends call him "girlfriend", etc. or who lets you know when he's checking out other guys by making little comments, etc. Or a lesbian who constantly encourages you to kiss another woman "just once" to see if you like it.

If it were someone within my church - my response would be very different - then I'd be looking at the Scriptural stance on admonishment.
I agree. But how so? It's easy to say that we need to hold one another accountable, but much more difficult to do in practice, isn't it? I think that's part of why we see so little of it (accountability) in the church today.

2. Regarding those who've had abortions - sadly I think all too often we as Christians don't do the right thing. We (conservative Christians) make our pro-life stance so very clear that I think we sometimes isolate those who've had an abortion and are in need of forgiveness and reconciliation. Given the numbers of abortions performed annually - I can pretty much guarantee that there are women sitting in each of our churches on Sundays who've had an abortion - and are probably keeping it secret because they're afraid of how the knowledge would be received. Chances are excellent that these women (and also their spouses) are seriously hurting, need counseling and are sitting in silence not knowing how to bring it up. Scripture makes it clear that God forgives all sins of those who are truly repentant. We, as Christians, should do no less.
Absolutely. This is a sin that causes a woman's head to hang low, even if she didn't believe it was a sin when she did it. It is an action that changes her life forever. And while we must take the hard line in standing against abortion, we must also show women who have had abortions Christ's compassion and love so that they can seek repentance and forgiveness instead of hiding away in personal torture.

Then I wonder why Jesus only called 12?
He called the twelve to establish the early church. But he calls us all to share the Gospel. And why wouldn't we want to? It's the Good News, right? :)

I think these two issues are very different... certainly in the case of non-Christians.
If a non-Christian is living a homosexual lifestyle, preaching that it is sin seems pointless. If they don't accept God, then they are unlikely to be moved by it. And since this sin is no worse than any other, why should we be judging them? Our job is to show Christ's love, share the gospel, and pray. And yes, sharing the gospel must involve some preaching of sin and judgement, but not in a way that makes their sin any worse than anyone else's.
I agree, and I wouldn't suggest that we go out of our way to point out one sin or anything. But as I mentioned earlier in this post, the issues does tend to come up more often than not, either in their wanting you to participate in accepting the "lifestyle", or in being confronted for our beliefs. I really believe it's something we need to be prepared for, and not shy away. These are people whom God loves, and I think we should not be afraid to take the oportunity to share Him with them.

Obviously, this is different if the person concerned is a Christian, since an openly sinful lifestyle is an affront to God. But - again, there are many in our churches who are habitual gossips, who are envious.. We must try to bring all sinners to repentance, not just one group.
I totally agree. I'm hoping we can discuss how we as believers are to deal with all these sorts of ongoing sins in the church. Ideas?

The abortion issue is different, in that a life is at stake, and I think we must always do all we can to prevent an abortion happening. But - this is more likely to happen if we love and respect the woman than if we judge and reject her!
Women who have had abortions are no more guilty of sin before God than I am... if they have repented, God has forgiven and removed the sin. We need to minister His love to these hurting women, not judge them


NB I am not accusing anyone here of being judgmental, just reflecting the attitudes I have seen all too often amongst Christians.:thumbsup:

Personally, I think one of the difficulties we face w/r to effectively addressing these issues as Christians is that we are oft tempted to make them "the issue" when we reach out to someone we either know or suspect is involved in one of these behaviors. We see a buddy living with his girlfriend and we feel compelled to talk to him about immorality; we see a friend who spends all their time in a bar and we discuss drunkenness, and so forth.

But we can, in these temptations too easily forget these behaviors are but one aspect of a person's entire life - a life that person is intimately and keenly aware of more than we are. If we ignore (whether on purpose or through naivete) the person as a whole, and reduce their life experience (that which has contributed so significantly to who they are today) to a single act or behavior, well we can lose credibility instantly with them as being judgmental or worse, interventionists with a singular goal - to change their behavior.

I am reminded of the story of the woman at the well. Jesus knew full well the nature of this woman's life - and He let the woman know He knew. But He did not make that the point of His discussion with her; rather, He spoke with her about worshipping God, about how God wishes to be worshipped, about His Christ - and He reveals Himself to her as the Christ. But her response is, IMO telling. She goes back to her townspeople and tells them Jesus knew all the things she had done! In speaking to her directly about God and how to worship God, He convicted her indirectly about her lifestyle.

I was fully content driving around in my 22 year old car - so much so I didn't realize how "old" it was until my wife's car was totalled and we had to get a newer one. It is only a couple years old, but boy is it nice by comparison! It has all the "bells and whistles" mine doesn't. Only then, once I experienced the contrast did I view my ancient heap for what it really was - once I experienced something radically better.

Personally, I don't think this woman needed to be told her behavior was wrong (which isn't always the case, admittedly). I think what Jesus felt she needed was a shift in her values, something worthy of valuing more than her current lifestyle. While He made it clear He was fully aware of her behavior, He contrasted the negatives of her lifestyle radically with something of much greater value - God.

And in the process, He won her heart - and John says "many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, 'He told me all the things I have done.'" (Jn 4) - which was true - but the full truth was that He spent much more time telling her about something infinitely better.

For me, this is just one of the many examples of how Jesus demonstrated grace in a practical and fruitful way, and is something I hope I can learn to emulate in my life.

Great thread! :thumbsup:
Thanks! Excellent comments!

[edb19]

I agree. But how so? It's easy to say that we need to hold one another accountable, but much more difficult to do in practice, isn't it? I think that's part of why we see so little of it (accountability) in the church today. . . . .

Thanks! Excellent comments!

In response to the accountability issue - my pastors and many others would say (and I agree) that's why church membership is important. By way of example - my church has ~40 regular attendees, of which probably 25-30 are members (the rest are children or adults considering membership). My daughter's church has ~7,000 attendees but only ~600 members.

In my church it is easy for the pastors/deacons to approach a member and discuss a behavior (church discipline is Scriptural). We can point to our statement of faith and Scripture and say this is where we see an issue - if the person refuses to change their behavior we can ask them to resign their membership or we can remove their name from membership. They could still worship with us - but they would be excluded from the Lord's Table.

My daughter's church - because they don't place an emphasis on membership - is unable to truly "discipline" an attendee - they have nothing to fall back on.

I'd have to dig out my notes - but my pastor recently spoke on Scriptural admonishment - it was most enlightening - there is a time and place for it.

And thank you - your OP was excellent and I'm thinking we'll continue to have some good discussion.

edie

[Cromwe11]

Then I wonder why Jesus only called 12?
one for each of the 12 tribes of Israel.

[Latreia]

Then I wonder why Jesus only called 12?

one for each of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Hmm... does this indicate that Christians are really called to take the gospels to Jews?

That really is what Jesus was doing.

:scratch:

[Cromwe11]

I've been thinking a lot about this and related questions lately. I think that we as conservative Christians have a real problem with always focusing on the evils we see in liberal churches etc.

We focus on the fact that some christians tolerate abortion, and some christians tolerate homosexuality etc. What this does is it allows us to define ourselves in relation to those things, instead of to God's image of what we should be.

We as conservatives think we are doing pretty good because we don't believe in abortion and we don't believe in homosexuality, but in fact we are failing miserably at what God actually called us to be.
We may not tolerate homosexuality, and we may not tolerate abortion... but we devote ourselves to getting wealth, to having emotionally and spiritually exciting experiences, to trying to obtain spiritual power, and most often of all.. simply living our lives as we see fit, seeking the comforts and entertainments that we individually desire.

Its not that any of those things are bad in and of themselves.. but the fact is that the whole evangelical church has completely lost its focus. The vast majority of us are content to pursue our own plans and goals, ignoring what God has called us to, content in the fact that we believe the bible to be factual, we don't support abortion, and we don't support homosexuality.

The question was asked, how do we minister to people who embrace those things. The truth is that we can't minister to people who embrace those things. Only God can do something like that, because the ministry must be done in their heart and in their spirit. We can't do that.
All we can do is be vessels for God to use. The only way we can truly become that, is by devoting ourselves not to our plans and our goals, but to His. We have to stop trying to live our lives and start living His.

I am honest enough to say that the phrase "it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me" does not accurately describe me. The truth is I am still living for me. I'm pursuing the things I want and the things I dream of.
I'm honest enough to say that of myself, and know its true, but I'm also honest enough to say that its true of the vast majority of 'conservative evangelical Christians'.

You wanna know why the church is failing to accomplish its mission in the US.. why it steadily loses ground to the world? why we can't stem the tide of homosexuality and abortion, why we just become more and more irrelevant to society...
Because we are not being salt and light. We are not being a city set on hill... we don't even remember how to be those things anymore.

We have gotten to the place where we think that being salt and light is just about having a firm moral code.. if I stand up and say abortion is wrong.. I'm being salt and light... well no, the truth is thats not right.

We are salt that has lost its savour. The reason is because we have become a Church that serves self.

There are many different camps even among conservatives and each one has their own particular failings.. but on the whole we suffer almost universally both from the ailments of the Church of Ephasus in revelation.. and the Church of Laodica.

We have lost our first love, and we have become lukewarm.. judging for ourselves what is right, and settings ourselves in agreement with our own visions.

The world doesn't need moralizing. Islam moralizes, Judaism moralizes, Hinduism moralizes, Budhism moralizes... The world needs Christians who truly passionately love Jesus Christ and actually live like he is really the Lord of their hearts and minds.

[Cromwe11]

Hmm... does this indicate that Christians are really called to take the gospels to Jews?

That really is what Jesus was doing.

:scratch:
Christians should take the gospel to the Jews

However, I think the meaning of the 12 has more to do with the fact that Israel is the Kingdom of God. Jesus Christ will sit upon the throne of David (ie Israel's throne) forever, and though, through faith, his kingdom includes people of all nations, it is always based on the image of Israel. It might be more accurate to say that Israel was based on the image of God's kingdom.

[Criada]

I The world needs Christians who truly passionately love Jesus Christ and actually live like he is really the Lord of their hearts and minds.

Amen.

[Latreia]

I've been thinking a lot about this and related questions lately. I think that we as conservative Christians have a real problem with always focusing on the evils we see in liberal churches etc.

We focus on the fact that some christians tolerate abortion, and some christians tolerate homosexuality etc. What this does is it allows us to define ourselves in relation to those things, instead of to God's image of what we should be.

We as conservatives think we are doing pretty good because we don't believe in abortion and we don't believe in homosexuality, but in fact we are failing miserably at what God actually called us to be.
We may not tolerate homosexuality, and we may not tolerate abortion... but we devote ourselves to getting wealth, to having emotionally and spiritually exciting experiences, to trying to obtain spiritual power, and most often of all.. simply living our lives as we see fit, seeking the comforts and entertainments that we individually desire.

Its not that any of those things are bad in and of themselves.. but the fact is that the whole evangelical church has completely lost its focus. The vast majority of us are content to pursue our own plans and goals, ignoring what God has called us to, content in the fact that we believe the bible to be factual, we don't support abortion, and we don't support homosexuality.

The question was asked, how do we minister to people who embrace those things. The truth is that we can't minister to people who embrace those things. Only God can do something like that, because the ministry must be done in their heart and in their spirit. We can't do that.
All we can do is be vessels for God to use. The only way we can truly become that, is by devoting ourselves not to our plans and our goals, but to His. We have to stop trying to live our lives and start living His.

I am honest enough to say that the phrase "it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me" does not accurately describe me. The truth is I am still living for me. I'm pursuing the things I want and the things I dream of.
I'm honest enough to say that of myself, and know its true, but I'm also honest enough to say that its true of the vast majority of 'conservative evangelical Christians'.

You wanna know why the church is failing to accomplish its mission in the US.. why it steadily loses ground to the world? why we can't stem the tide of homosexuality and abortion, why we just become more and more irrelevant to society...
Because we are not being salt and light. We are not being a city set on hill... we don't even remember how to be those things anymore.

We have gotten to the place where we think that being salt and light is just about having a firm moral code.. if I stand up and say abortion is wrong.. I'm being salt and light... well no, the truth is thats not right.

We are salt that has lost its savour. The reason is because we have become a Church that serves self.

There are many different camps even among conservatives and each one has their own particular failings.. but on the whole we suffer almost universally both from the ailments of the Church of Ephasus in revelation.. and the Church of Laodica.

We have lost our first love, and we have become lukewarm.. judging for ourselves what is right, and settings ourselves in agreement with our own visions.

The world doesn't need moralizing. Islam moralizes, Judaism moralizes, Hinduism moralizes, Budhism moralizes... The world needs Christians who truly passionately love Jesus Christ and actually live like he is really the Lord of their hearts and minds.

When I think about Jesus teaching all those people in the villages and His sermons to the multitudes, was the message to them all to go out and live only for Him? Or did He teach them how to live their own lives to the fulfillment of God's will for His own children?

Children do not live for their parents.
They grow up and create new lives for themselves, hopefully, having learned the best ways in their childhoods.

Saying that Christian churches have failed the whole world suggests that they never tried and God holds all Christians responsible for the failures of the world.

But is that what we truly understand? I thought that we submitted our understanding and will to God's plans.
We can only strive to do our best, and falling short is no sin, for all can be forgiven by an all-knowing God.

We believe that God is also omnipotent, with power over the entire universe. He did not send Jesus to overcome the evil of the entire world at one time. At best, Christ only taught for two, perhaps four years, at the longest.

The time would have been then for Jesus to openly save the whole miserable world, including Rome and the Orient. But that was not the message Christ taught.

The Way to Life Eternal, the ways to live with our brothers and sisters. Were the people told to live their lives only in the same way exactly as Jesus of Nazareth?

He had twelve Disciples, one for each tribe of Judea. That was the scope of His part of the world, then.

Evangelism today is a far removed issue and has taken on authorities and demands of it's own. It teaches for the advancement and power of it's own tenets, just as the organized churches in history have done.

The true Christians are exactly the ones who are steadfast in their devotion to their families, to their communities, and to their fellow Christians. Modern thought ignores this basic reality, and calls for public displays of Christianity to show proof of their contributions to the world.

The world needs Christians who truly passionately love Jesus Christ and actually live like he is really the Lord of their hearts and minds

The world has always HAD Christians like that.
And the world has hated, persecuted, and slaughtered them. There are, nevertheless, millions of such Christians today, many of them converts in the same countries that committed the most atrocities against their own people.


But it is the modest, quietest Christian hearts to have contributed to this world, to America, to setting wonderful examples of being world citizens through long years of charitable works and raising their families in faith and duty to others.

Christians are in almost every country the world over, and with them came better schools, better hospitals, better living conditions, and more hope than what they found there when they arrived.

Beware of negative preaching about what it means to be Christians, about constant complaints that Christianity has failed the world.

If Christians have not pleased the worldly mindset, I believe deep down in my soul, that they have, in their quiet, unsung ways pleased God and served Jesus Christ very well, indeed.

It is giving a distainful, sin-loving world way too much advantage over morality and good faith to absolve all from blame for what they choose, and for all they have refused.


You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
~~ C. S. Lewis

[desmalia]

I've been thinking a lot about this and related questions lately. I think that we as conservative Christians have a real problem with always focusing on the evils we see in liberal churches etc.

We focus on the fact that some christians tolerate abortion, and some christians tolerate homosexuality etc. What this does is it allows us to define ourselves in relation to those things, instead of to God's image of what we should be.

We as conservatives think we are doing pretty good because we don't believe in abortion and we don't believe in homosexuality, but in fact we are failing miserably at what God actually called us to be.
We may not tolerate homosexuality, and we may not tolerate abortion... but we devote ourselves to getting wealth, to having emotionally and spiritually exciting experiences, to trying to obtain spiritual power, and most often of all.. simply living our lives as we see fit, seeking the comforts and entertainments that we individually desire.

Its not that any of those things are bad in and of themselves.. but the fact is that the whole evangelical church has completely lost its focus. The vast majority of us are content to pursue our own plans and goals, ignoring what God has called us to, content in the fact that we believe the bible to be factual, we don't support abortion, and we don't support homosexuality.

The question was asked, how do we minister to people who embrace those things. The truth is that we can't minister to people who embrace those things. Only God can do something like that, because the ministry must be done in their heart and in their spirit. We can't do that.
All we can do is be vessels for God to use. The only way we can truly become that, is by devoting ourselves not to our plans and our goals, but to His. We have to stop trying to live our lives and start living His.

I am honest enough to say that the phrase "it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me" does not accurately describe me. The truth is I am still living for me. I'm pursuing the things I want and the things I dream of.
I'm honest enough to say that of myself, and know its true, but I'm also honest enough to say that its true of the vast majority of 'conservative evangelical Christians'.

You wanna know why the church is failing to accomplish its mission in the US.. why it steadily loses ground to the world? why we can't stem the tide of homosexuality and abortion, why we just become more and more irrelevant to society...
Because we are not being salt and light. We are not being a city set on hill... we don't even remember how to be those things anymore.

We have gotten to the place where we think that being salt and light is just about having a firm moral code.. if I stand up and say abortion is wrong.. I'm being salt and light... well no, the truth is thats not right.

We are salt that has lost its savour. The reason is because we have become a Church that serves self.

There are many different camps even among conservatives and each one has their own particular failings.. but on the whole we suffer almost universally both from the ailments of the Church of Ephasus in revelation.. and the Church of Laodica.

We have lost our first love, and we have become lukewarm.. judging for ourselves what is right, and settings ourselves in agreement with our own visions.

The world doesn't need moralizing. Islam moralizes, Judaism moralizes, Hinduism moralizes, Budhism moralizes... The world needs Christians who truly passionately love Jesus Christ and actually live like he is really the Lord of their hearts and minds.
Thank you for the sermon! :D

You make many excellent points and I quite agree with you, though I think we must be careful not to assume that all Christians are in pursuit of wealth and experience, etc. It is a rampant problem in the church, to be sure. But that doesn't mean it applies to every member.

Whenever threads like this are started, at least one person will post something along the lines of what you are saying. And the points are valid. I guess what I'm trying to do is take it one step further. Instead of sitting back on the "well I have a plank in my eye, so I have no right to say anything" excuse, how can we rise to the challenge of fulfilling the Great Commission? Does the modern western church need reform? Well absolutely, you won't hear an argument from me on that!!! It certainly does. And if you'd like to start a thread to discuss this, I'd be very happy to join you there. I'm hoping this thread can address what we do once we're on track and really seeking to glorify God. Practical application.

It would be great if we could all just understand these issues in Biblical light. But if you take a look around these forums, and at many church denominations these days, you'll see they have somehow become huge issues. Just looking at CF, there's actually a very large and active subforum for debating whether homosexual behavior is even a sin in God's eyes! Yes, there are many other sins that are being ignored or even accepted in the church. And as I said in the OP, please feel free to address any of them as well. I'd just like to see us talk about how we proceed, instead of always just debating the issues or preaching about what's wrong.

Thanks. I look forward to your comments. :)

PS, I also very much agree that we must be careful not to look at someone else's sin and use it to make ourselves "feel better" because we aren't guilty of that particular one. That's a serious danger that all those debate threads can pose. Another reason I want this discussion to move beyond those kinds of debates.

[Cromwe11]

Thank you for the sermon! :D

You make many excellent points and I quite agree with you, though I think we must be careful not to assume that all Christians are in pursuit of wealth and experience, etc. It is a rampant problem in the church, to be sure. But that doesn't mean it applies to every member.

Whenever threads like this are started, at least one person will post something along the lines of what you are saying. And the points are valid. I guess what I'm trying to do is take it one step further. Instead of sitting back on the "well I have a plank in my eye, so I have no right to say anything" excuse, how can we rise to the challenge of fulfilling the Great Commission? Does the modern western church need reform? Well absolutely, you won't hear an argument from me on that!!! It certainly does. And if you'd like to start a thread to discuss this, I'd be very happy to join you there. I'm hoping this thread can address what we do once we're on track and really seeking to glorify God. Practical application.

It would be great if we could all just understand these issues in Biblical light. But if you take a look around these forums, and at many church denominations these days, you'll see they have somehow become huge issues. Just looking at CF, there's actually a very large and active subforum for debating whether homosexual behavior is even a sin in God's eyes! Yes, there are many other sins that are being ignored or even accepted in the church. And as I said in the OP, please feel free to address any of them as well. I'd just like to see us talk about how we proceed, instead of always just debating the issues or preaching about what's wrong.

Thanks. I look forward to your comments. :)

PS, I also very much agree that we must be careful not to look at someone else's sin and use it to make ourselves "feel better" because we aren't guilty of that particular one. That's a serious danger that all those debate threads can pose. Another reason I want this discussion to move beyond those kinds of debates.
I don't think I got my point across.

My point is not that we are corrupt ourselves and therefore don't have the right to speak on moral issues. My point is that morality doesn't save people. Morality doesn't change people's hearts. Morality doesn't transform lives.

Jesus Christ does.

when we look at issues like homosexuality and abortion, we usually have a wrong focus. We look at them and think, we must teach these people proper morality. We have to convince them that what they are doing is wrong so they can live rightly.
This belies a significant problem in our own understandings and our own core beliefs.

To paraphrase Ravi Zacharias
God's plan is not about making bad people good, its about making dead people alive.

All the religions in the world try to move from morality to life except Christianity.
Every human religion is based on the idea that if you can live rightly, you will be rewarded with life.
Christianity, the divine religion is exactly the opposite. If you will embrace life, you can live rightly.

When we approach "evangelism" from the standpoint of moralism, trying to teach people what correct morality is, we are wasting our time. First of all, the wisdom of God is foolishness to men. Those who are dead in sin will never respond to merely moral teaching.

That doesn't remotely mean that we comprimise our morality. It is impossible to grow in the knowledge of God or in depth of relationship with him if you do not obey his moral teachings.
But you can't begin there. Presenting Christianity as a merely moral teaching, is to relegate it to the same status as any other religion. At that point there is no real difference between Christianity and buddhism or islam.

The gospel is summed up in the statement "Jesus Christ is Lord". There is life only in Jesus Christ and only for those who are willing to bow before him as Lord.

This is an eminently practical message. The only way to accomplish the great commission is by proclaiming Jesus Christ and his Lordship.

The only way to truly do that, is by really having Jesus Christ as the Lord of our own hearts and minds. And that is the problem I was getting at before.

Its not that we don't have a right to speak because we are hypocritical, and we aren't moral enough ourselves.
Its that nothing we say will be effective if we ourselves are not consumed by passion for Jesus Christ.

In practical terms, all we can really do is be a witness to the truth that is in us. We can lift up Jesus Christ and testify of the life that is in him, we can exemplify the love of God which the Holy Spirit has shed abroad in our hearts...

But we can only do those things if they actually are really in us. Thats what I was trying to get at in my previous post. You can't communicate passion for Jesus Christ, if you aren't passionate. You can't lift up Jesus Christ as Lord for all men to see, if he isn't lifted up in your heart.
My point is not that we need to be more moral before we can have the right to speak. Its that the message we need to spread is the Passionate burning commitment to and love of Jesus Christ.

In practical terms, we need to make sure that we do not allow ourselves to get in the way of the message. As Paul said, I will be all things to all men that I by some means might save some of them.
He's obviously not talking about becoming a sinner to reach sinners. He is talking about not allowing customs and cultural issues to get in the way of his message. He wasn't going to allow his Jewish customs and culture to become a stumbling block to the greeks. He wasn't going to allow the customs he adopted among the greeks to become a stumbling block to the Jews.
He does not validate sin in any way, but he does not allow things that are not ultimately important get in the way of his message.

Practicality in terms of the great commission is not only about what strategies you employ to reach people, it is also about what message you preach. Paul's message was "I resolved to know nothing but Christ and him crucified." That should be our message as well.

The Lordship of Jesus Christ is everything.

Assuming that a person is already really passionate about Christ themselves and really knows Jesus Christ intimately themselves...

The next step is to treat people like people instead of notches in your belt. Many times evangelicals have a tendancy to view people as projects rather than as people. Nobody likes to be treated that way and its a very quick way to turn people off.

That involves loving them and that is hard to do.

[desmalia]

:sorry: I don't think I got my point across.

My point is not that we are corrupt ourselves and therefore don't have the right to speak on moral issues. My point is that morality doesn't save people. Morality doesn't change people's hearts. Morality doesn't transform lives.

Jesus Christ does.

when we look at issues like homosexuality and abortion, we usually have a wrong focus. We look at them and think, we must teach these people proper morality. We have to convince them that what they are doing is wrong so they can live rightly.
This belies a significant problem in our own understandings and our own core beliefs.

To paraphrase Ravi Zacharias
God's plan is not about making bad people good, its about making dead people alive.

All the religions in the world try to move from morality to life except Christianity.
Every human religion is based on the idea that if you can live rightly, you will be rewarded with life.
Christianity, the divine religion is exactly the opposite. If you will embrace life, you can live rightly.

When we approach "evangelism" from the standpoint of moralism, trying to teach people what correct morality is, we are wasting our time. First of all, the wisdom of God is foolishness to men. Those who are dead in sin will never respond to merely moral teaching.

That doesn't remotely mean that we comprimise our morality. It is impossible to grow in the knowledge of God or in depth of relationship with him if you do not obey his moral teachings.
But you can't begin there. Presenting Christianity as a merely moral teaching, is to relegate it to the same status as any other religion. At that point there is no real difference between Christianity and buddhism or islam.

The gospel is summed up in the statement "Jesus Christ is Lord". There is life only in Jesus Christ and only for those who are willing to bow before him as Lord.

This is an eminently practical message. The only way to accomplish the great commission is by proclaiming Jesus Christ and his Lordship.

The only way to truly do that, is by really having Jesus Christ as the Lord of our own hearts and minds. And that is the problem I was getting at before.

Its not that we don't have a right to speak because we are hypocritical, and we aren't moral enough ourselves.
Its that nothing we say will be effective if we ourselves are not consumed by passion for Jesus Christ.

In practical terms, all we can really do is be a witness to the truth that is in us. We can lift up Jesus Christ and testify of the life that is in him, we can exemplify the love of God which the Holy Spirit has shed abroad in our hearts...

But we can only do those things if they actually are really in us. Thats what I was trying to get at in my previous post. You can't communicate passion for Jesus Christ, if you aren't passionate. You can't lift up Jesus Christ as Lord for all men to see, if he isn't lifted up in your heart.
My point is not that we need to be more moral before we can have the right to speak. Its that the message we need to spread is the Passionate burning commitment to and love of Jesus Christ.

In practical terms, we need to make sure that we do not allow ourselves to get in the way of the message. As Paul said, I will be all things to all men that I by some means might save some of them.
He's obviously not talking about becoming a sinner to reach sinners. He is talking about not allowing customs and cultural issues to get in the way of his message. He wasn't going to allow his Jewish customs and culture to become a stumbling block to the greeks. He wasn't going to allow the customs he adopted among the greeks to become a stumbling block to the Jews.
He does not validate sin in any way, but he does not allow things that are not ultimately important get in the way of his message.

Practicality in terms of the great commission is not only about what strategies you employ to reach people, it is also about what message you preach. Paul's message was "I resolved to know nothing but Christ and him crucified." That should be our message as well.

The Lordship of Jesus Christ is everything.

Assuming that a person is already really passionate about Christ themselves and really knows Jesus Christ intimately themselves...

The next step is to treat people like people instead of notches in your belt. Many times evangelicals have a tendancy to view people as projects rather than as people. Nobody likes to be treated that way and its a very quick way to turn people off.

That involves loving them and that is hard to do.
Thank you again for your comments. I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said. In particular I was hoping we could get into details such as I've bolded in your post. However, it looks like I've yet again done a terrible job of trying to communicate what I'm thinking and wanting to discuss. My apologies. I certainly never wanted to suggest that we should preach morality as a form of evangelism. I'm gonna go shut up now.:sorry:

[edb19]

The next step is to treat people like people instead of notches in your belt. Many times evangelicals have a tendancy to view people as projects rather than as people. Nobody likes to be treated that way and its a very quick way to turn people off.


One thing I frequently remind myself - whomever I'm dealing with - be they a person who had an abortion, who is homosexual, who is just the person next door - doesn't matter who - they're made in God's image and deserve respect for that reason alone - and truly, what better reason is there?

edie

[Hentenza]

Hey Des,

The way we act towards these issues parallels the great commission. Jesus commands to the apostles is something that we can use today is dealing with todays issues. The Great Commission is given in Matthew chapter 28, verses 19-20, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Jesus gave this Great Commission to the Apostles shortly before He ascended into Heaven. The Great Commission essentially gives what Jesus expected the Apostles, and those who followed them, to do.
That being said, Jesus also commanded the apostles in Luke 9:4-6 "
4Whatever house you enter, stay there until you leave that town. 5If people do not welcome you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave their town, as a testimony against them." 6So they set out and went from village to village, preaching the gospel and healing people everywhere." We can preach the gospel as commanded by our Savior but people do have to listen and obey. When they don't then we are to move on to another that will listen. The gate is narrow indeed.

[Cromwe11]

Des,

There are some basic things like what I said about treating people like people, etc... but I don't think that there necessarily is a strategy which is going to revolutionize outreach to any particular group of people. I think its more individual than that.

General rules would be make sure that your not allowing non-essential "culture" style issues to get in the way. An example of this in America might be that evangelicals often tend to speak their own particular language, and have their own unique "christianese" expressions. Don't expect other people to understand this and learn to speak in terms that they can understand.

vocabulary isn't important enough to be a stumbling block, so make sure it doesn't get in the way. Apply the same principle to other things that might be similar in nature.

other than that, just try to meet people's needs. Probably the biggest need that most americans have, other than Jesus, is simply to be loved.

[SolomonVII]

Hey Des,

The way we act towards these issues parallels the great commission. Jesus commands to the apostles is something that we can use today is dealing with todays issues. The Great Commission is given in Matthew chapter 28, verses 19-20, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Jesus gave this Great Commission to the Apostles shortly before He ascended into Heaven. The Great Commission essentially gives what Jesus expected the Apostles, and those who followed them, to do.
That being said, Jesus also commanded the apostles in Luke 9:4-6 "
4Whatever house you enter, stay there until you leave that town. 5If people do not welcome you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave their town, as a testimony against them." 6So they set out and went from village to village, preaching the gospel and healing people everywhere." We can preach the gospel as commanded by our Savior but people do have to listen and obey. When they don't then we are to move on to another that will listen. The gate is narrow indeed.

So basically, Jesus commissioned us to reach out beyond our immediate circle of family and friends. First and foremost we reach out to people by simply being there, and making ourselves available to those who may be receptive to the message. We have the role of the guest in these situations, dependant on the kindness of our host.
So if and only if people offer us hospitality and a sanctuary of some sort, and are welcoming, then we are enabled to reach out in turn with the good news.

But if and when the message is no longer welcome, we have to make a point of leaving it all behind, completely disassociating ourselves from these people, even to the dust on our sandals.

So there is just no way that it can be said that we are imposing if we quickly make ourselves invisible from places where it is clear we are no longer really wanted.

Another verse that migh be associated with this would be the parable of the famer spreading seeds. The norm would be to sow the seeds in places where it is most fertile. When the seeds fall by the roadside or among the thistles, that is mostly a waste of valuable resources. As any good farmer would do then, we need to seek out the places that are the most fertile for the message, and spend time to nurture the seed in those places which are just naturally more receptive to it.

[ladyt28]

As a social worker, I get to go to the homes of many people. My job is to help the elderly and disabled with services that keep them safely in their own homes. Before each work day and often before each home call, I pray that I be part of God's will, to guide me, to lead me and that He help open my heart/mind/spirit to hear what it is that God wants me to do. Often I get in the vehicle after a home call thinking "wow..that was the Lord at work in there" and give praise to Him for allowing me to be His instrument.

I too go to a smaller church where most of the people who go are members. No one 'disciplines' each other but rather offers prayerful support and an ongoing willingness to be available when weakness starts to rear it's head. To me, it is the power of the church family that gives it strength to minister to each other.