a question about speaking in tongues...

[MoNiCa4316]

:wave: Hello friends! I'm not Catholic, but I'm really enjoying this forum. I was wondering if I could ask a question about speaking in tongues...the reason I want to ask it here and not in the general P/C forum is because there are just soo many people there. lol. I like small forums like this more. I hope that's alright! :)

What I'm wondering is...I used to pray in tongues occasionally, but for some reason, I haven't for the longest time. Is it possible to lose this gift? I'm starting to question whether I had it to begin with.
Several months ago, I was in my room and asked God for this gift...if it was His will. And suddenly I was given a lot of faith..as if He was giving it to me but I just needed to accept it. I felt like raising my hands, like in worship...so I did..and suddenly, I just wanted to praise God. But it was difficult in English, and suddenly I started speaking in tongues. It came quite naturally, and it felt like the words had meaning. And then afterwards, I felt really spiritually renewed and a lot of joy... this happened again several times, when I was praising God. But for some reason, it didn't go further than that. I don't really understand why... I don't even know anymore if I really received the gift back then. lol. Has anyone else experienced something like this? I kinda wish that it was a bigger part of my life...like it I could do it at will, like many other people can.

Any advice? :) what do you think?

By the way maybe I should mention that my 'prayer life' hasn't been amazing the past month or two =( I'm worried about many things and struggling with some parts of my faith. I've been experiencing some doubt..and I'm also trying to figure out which church God wants me in, but this has greatly confused me. I have no idea what His will is about this. I recently decided to just seek Him first, and maybe then all these 'other things' will be added to me. ah I'm just pretty tired from worrying. Maybe I "lost" my gift because of all this worrying and distraction, I don't know :confused: Recently I've been debating theology much more than praying. =( I feel very empty.

If anyone could pray for me, I would really appreciate it! I really need prayer :(

thanks!

monica

[CatholicFlame]

Well apparently your gift seems lost Monica, but it hasn't been. The gift of tongues remains in my experience and never is lost per se. But I would agree with you that at times, it seems very hard to pray in your prayer language. I have had this happen to me also, and it has been at times when I was lacking in my spiritual life. I guess what you are descrbing is just what you are going through.

I was just praying for you and I feel that the Lord has given me a word for you. It is that "When you rest in His arms, the answers will be given."

I pray that this helps. I know how arguing can really have bad effects on our faith. It just doesn't help much! I guess we argue so that we can find the answer but I dunno, it is like going to war to win peace. I guess it doesn't usually work very well.

Jesus bless you my sister, I will keep praying for you tonight.

with love,

CF

[MoNiCa4316]

Well apparently your gift seems lost Monica, but it hasn't been. The gift of tongues remains in my experience and never is lost per se. But I would agree with you that at times, it seems very hard to pray in your prayer language. I have had this happen to me also, and it has been at times when I was lacking in my spiritual life. I guess what you are descrbing is just what you are going through.

I was just praying for you and I feel that the Lord has given me a word for you. It is that "When you rest in His arms, the answers will be given."

I pray that this helps. I know how arguing can really have bad effects on our faith. It just doesn't help much! I guess we argue so that we can find the answer but I dunno, it is like going to war to win peace. I guess it doesn't usually work very well.

Jesus bless you my sister, I will keep praying for you tonight.

with love,

CF

Thank you my brother! :hug: Thanks so much for praying for me. What you said, "when you rest in His arms, the answers will be given"...that's actually surprisingly relevant!! I'll explain why...I really don't like doubt..it's so painful..but recently I've been doubting all my experience and if my relationship has been with God or if I've been deceived :( that sounds pretty terrible now that I've actually said it! I have no real reason for my doubts...I've examined all my experiences, and everything seems Biblical and there has been good 'fruit'. There doesn't seem to be anything to suggest deception! I have been deceived a couple of times...but the Lord let me know then. I think the reason I've been doubting this is because I've been doubting everything lately..my beliefs (like specific doctrines, not Christianity itself), etc etc. :sigh: This hasn't brought me closer to God so maybe it's a test, or maybe this will somehow make me grow in faith..I'll only know once this trial is over...which I hope is soon, lol! but His will be done..
Well anyway, the result of all this doubt is that I've almost been afraid to really spend time with God :( and maybe what you said means that I should..I really want to just surrender everything to Him and give Him all my burdens. I haven't done that though. Maybe this is Him telling me I should. ..also I really want some peace, and rest..maybe He's trying to give it to me, but I'm not accepting it.
Thanks for the help =)

I agree with what you said about arguing...I realized that too yesterday and decided to not debate anymore. It does no good and only tears people further apart.

About tongues, yes I think I'm lacking in my spiritual life right now..so that's probably it. Well..the Christian life goes up and down..we must simply keep on choosing to believe, no matter what. :) this too shall pass.

God bless you!

monica

[CatholicFlame]

Pray my sister Monica and wait upon the Lord.

I have this image of the scene where Mary and Martha of Bethany are there with Jesus and the Lord turns to Martha to tell her that the one thing that is neccesary to to chose what mary chose: to sit near Jesus and listen to His words.

Lemme tell you something that I used to really struggle with. I used to be big time into apologetics for like 2 years. I would just read gobs and gobs of it. I would read anythinga ndeverything that had to do with biblical truths and all. I was really serious about it for like a while. But ya know what happened was that I reached a point where I realized that my personal prayer life was lacking. I knew so much about the Lord and His doctrines but I did not really know the Lord much persoanlly. I mean I did know HIm, don't get me wrong, but it was like for a time I put my personal relationship with Him to the side while I was overly invovled in biblical study. Well yeah, things have changed alot for me. It is not that I don't believe in apologetics and all, because I do. But it's more like things have to be in their proper perspective and Jesus should always be first.

I hear you that you are really at a searching time in your life sis. This is not easy I know, but at least take courage in that if you simply rest with HIm, Jesus will give you all the answers at the appropriate time.

I would just say take some time out to revive your prayer life and give the Lord more of your time.

And I bet that speaking in tongues will begin in you in a new way without delay. ;)

[MoNiCa4316]

Pray my sister Monica and wait upon the Lord.

I have this image of the scene where Mary and Martha of Bethany are there with Jesus and the Lord turns to Martha to tell her that the one thing that is neccesary to to chose what mary chose: to sit near Jesus and listen to His words.

yes.... :) I think that's what I need to do, instead of reading apologetics. That seems like the truth.

Lemme tell you something that I used to really struggle with. I used to be big time into apologetics for like 2 years. I would just read gobs and gobs of it. I would read anythinga ndeverything that had to do with biblical truths and all. I was really serious about it for like a while. But ya know what happened was that I reached a point where I realized that my personal prayer life was lacking. I knew so much about the Lord and His doctrines but I did not really know the Lord much persoanlly. I mean I did know HIm, don't get me wrong, but it was like for a time I put my personal relationship with Him to the side while I was overly invovled in biblical study. Well yeah, things have changed alot for me. It is not that I don't believe in apologetics and all, because I do. But it's more like things have to be in their proper perspective and Jesus should always be first.

I think that's what's happening with me too. I spend so much time reading things and researching and talking to people about doctrine..but not really just spending time with Jesus. And then I wonder why I'm feeling so spiritually empty and far from God.

I hear you that you are really at a searching time in your life sis. This is not easy I know, but at least take courage in that if you simply rest with HIm, Jesus will give you all the answers at the appropriate time.

I would just say take some time out to revive your prayer life and give the Lord more of your time.

And I bet that speaking in tongues will begin in you in a new way without delay. ;)

thanks for the advice :) I think I'll do just that.

God bless

monica

[CatholicFlame]

Monica,

I was just watching this video and thought how appropriate it was for what you are going through.

The words "take me broken" and "overwhlem me Lord"

just seem to be the prayer that can move the mountians of our hearts toward Jesus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XqudMlddk0&feature=related

bless you my sister with peace and trust in God

[MoNiCa4316]

aw, thanks! :hug:
I love those words. I sometimes get this strange, false illusion that I have to 'fix myself' and then come to Jesus...when in reality He wants us to come to Him when we're broken and fix us. Thanks for the reminder!

[JoabAnias]

What I'm wondering is...I used to pray in tongues occasionally, but for some reason, I haven't for the longest time. Is it possible to lose this gift? I'm starting to question whether I had it to begin with.
Several months ago, I was in my room and asked God for this gift...if it was His will. And suddenly I was given a lot of faith..as if He was giving it to me but I just needed to accept it. I felt like raising my hands, like in worship...so I did..and suddenly, I just wanted to praise God. But it was difficult in English, and suddenly I started speaking in tongues. It came quite naturally, and it felt like the words had meaning. And then afterwards, I felt really spiritually renewed and a lot of joy... this happened again several times, when I was praising God. But for some reason, it didn't go further than that. I don't really understand why... I don't even know anymore if I really received the gift back then. lol. Has anyone else experienced something like this? I kinda wish that it was a bigger part of my life...like it I could do it at will, like many other people can.

Any advice? :) what do you think?

I have what is known as Ecstatic utterances. Its not a real language but prayer from my heart when raised to God.

Paul says “as for tongues, they will cease” (1 Cor. 13:8). The Greek word for “cease” (pauomai) means that the gift of tongues will end abruptly, on its own, and will not be replaced by another gift. The gift of tongues is the only gift of the Holy Spirit that is said to “cease” in this way. When Paul says that prophecies and knowledge will “pass away” (1 Cor. 13:8), the phrase “pass away” (in Greek, katargeo) indicates that these gifts will be replaced by a superior power. This appears to take place when we begin our life in eternity (1 Cor. 13:10-12). Not so with tongues.

The person who speaks in tongues should pray for the power to interpret his own tongue (1 Cor. 14:13), or have someone who has the gift of interpretation present to interpret the tongue (1 Cor. 14:27). If the tongue cannot be interpreted, the person is to remain silent (1 Cor. 14:28). Therefore, tongues should not be unintelligible utterances, (except in private devotion) but should be understood (1 Cor. 14:6-12).

From my understanding and experience is that the ceasing of the gift is a sign of maturity or changing and learning to love in a new way. We all experience periods of dryness and need to renew ourselves and our devotion to the Lord. This is nothing to fear. Sensible devotions being withdrawn serve to show us how much we really need God. St Augustine said: "O Lord our hearts are restless until they rest in you".

Perhaps this dryness is what your new learning is indicative of. Arguing isn't always bad if its explored in real and honest dialogue and one isn't caused to sin because of it. If your passions overcome you and cause you to sin then thats different and should be avoided. This is a way we can learn of ourselves as well as the other knowlege gained which all works to grant us more wisdom.

Peace.

[Peaceful Dove]

Greetings Monica

I can't add too much to what Catholic Flame has said. He always says it so well. Wow, talk about the Holy Spirit using someone!

However, there is a Spiritual experience we call "Dark Night of the Soul". It is what some folks call a desert experience or a dry time. The degree varies. I went through a two year period that was classic Dark Night of the Soul. It was as if God just disapered from my life. Any Prayerful activity was without any consolation whatsoever and was done in flat out obedience. I couldn't feel his presence or anything.
At any rate, the instant this was over and it was in an instant, the presence of the Lord was so powerful, more than any time in my life. Those two years was, in fact a very great time of Spiritual growth.

Another thing that I was thinking about is your praise and worship time.
Do you attend a Prayer meeting or worship service where there is much praying and singing in tongues?
I think it is easy to get out of the habit unless there is a strong committment to maybe weekly praise and worship.
I am also praying for you.

[CatholicFlame]

Hey Joab,

thank you for joining us here at the renewal. I love to hear your thoughts and the effects of what you have found. Again, here I am surprised to hear something that I haven't before.

You said that you use estatic utterances. Hmm, I have heard of this term being used in mystical theology but it never dawned on me tht it could refer to something other than the gift of tongues. Are you saying that it is different than tongues? (not the talks that need interpretation as in speaking in tongues but the other gift that we understand to be used in a prayer that is from the person to God which needs no interpretation (we call this praying in tongues to show the differentiation)?

Also when you emntinoed that you believe that tongues will cease and not be replaced, do you have any other source of this? I would like to hear someone in the Renewal who teaches something about this, because it sounds new to me. Thank you for the help!

I must say that, when I read your post, I was worried to think that I would lose the ability to praise God in tongues! I hope that this never happens unless the Lord replaces it with the ability to praise Him in an even stronger way. We all need to praise Him in the best ways possible. I know that I do!

peace my brother

[PassthePeace1]

From my understanding and experience is that the ceasing of the gift is a sign of maturity or changing and learning to love in a new way.
Peace.

This is almost exactly what I was thinking when I read the OP.

[hawko]

Let me say this; I believe that the Lord's gifts to us are permanent. We may not experience them all the time, but that is ok. We should be focused on the Lord, not the gifts that He has given us, or the gifts that we want to receive. From my own personal experience, I believe that the gifts are given to us to help build up our faith and the faith of others. The Lord gives out His gifts to us as He chooses, and we should never be jealous of someone because they have a particular gift and we don't. Many people pray for prayer tongues, or for some other gift from the Lord. This is ok, but I believe that we should first work on our relationship with our Lord, and how we can better follow Him. After I was "born again", my main prayer for many years was "Lord, help me to recognize your presence in the many ways that you speak to me". Once, I began to recognize His presence in my life, I was able to draw into a much closer relationship with Him. Over the last 25 years, the Lord has given me many spiritual gifts, and I can honestly say that I have not asked for a single gift. These were given to me as an aid to my spiritual growth, of which I've always had a strong desire to draw closer to the Lord. What I am trying to say, is don't focus on the gifts, but focus on how we can serve the Lord best, and the gifts will follow, if it be the Lord's will to do so. God Bless

[JoabAnias]

Hey Joab,

thank you for joining us here at the renewal. I love to hear your thoughts and the effects of what you have found. Again, here I am surprised to hear something that I haven't before.

You said that you use estatic utterances. Hmm, I have heard of this term being used in mystical theology but it never dawned on me tht it could refer to something other than the gift of tongues. Are you saying that it is different than tongues? (not the talks that need interpretation as in speaking in tongues but the other gift that we understand to be used in a prayer that is from the person to God which needs no interpretation (we call this praying in tongues to show the differentiation)?

Hi CF,

No, not different than the gift of tongues.

Ecstatic utterances are different yet still the gift of tongues. Just a different form that what was received by the Apostles at the first Pentecost.

The Scriptures teach that speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit which allows someone to speak in a foreign language that one does not actually know (in Greek, xenolalia). The Scriptures also indicate that the gift of tongues could mean making ecstatic utterances that are intelligible to God and others who have the gift of interpreting tongues (in Greek, glossalalia). Tongues (http://www.scripturecatholic.com/tongues.html)

However not all gifts of tongues are foreign language, these are what I refer to as ecstatic utterances. While a foreign language can be interpreted by anyone who knows the language an ecstatic utterance would only be able to be interpreted by God, the one speaking or someone with the gift of interpretation.

Also when you emntinoed that you believe that tongues will cease and not be replaced, do you have any other source of this? I would like to hear someone in the Renewal who teaches something about this, because it sounds new to me. Thank you for the help!

Saint Paul says the gift will cease in 1 Cor. 13:8

1Co 13:8 Love never fails. But if there are prophecies, they will be caused to cease; if tongues, they shall cease; if knowledge, it will be caused to cease.

If I were to loose any gift but were to gain in Love then it would make no difference.

I included a link in the above quote (Tongues (http://www.scripturecatholic.com/tongues.html)) that should be helpful as a source. I think I have some ultreya, cenacle and ccr prayer group leader resources around here somewhere too but the online one is the easiest to get to atm.

I must say that, when I read your post, I was worried to think that I would lose the ability to praise God in tongues! I hope that this never happens unless the Lord replaces it with the ability to praise Him in an even stronger way. We all need to praise Him in the best ways possible. I know that I do!

I wouldn't worry about that my friend. Though since first experiencing ecstatic utterances (prayer from the heart) in the cenacles I have been a member of I have succumbed to distractions of the world over the years but it has never left me. And though I keep it to myself now it will most likely never be interpreted the Lord knows my heart and it edifies myself which is a good thing. 1Co 14:4 The one speaking in a tongue builds himself up....

Saint Paul says tongue-speaking must be done for the edification of the Church 1 Cor. 14:5,26. This means that ecstatic utterances can also build up the body of Christ. Though Saint Paul also says they should be interpreted if spoken aloud. 1Co 14:28 And if there is no interpreter, let him be silent in the assembly, and let him speak to himself and to God.

This is the state of my ecstatic utterances and I believe they were the same with John Paul II and many other people I know personally. Though I must admit the hearing of these utterances built me up into a more profound prayer life at one point even though there was no-one available to interpret them. I believe when they are sincere they can still have this effect even though there is no interpretation. There are some things to be leery of though. Mainly pride. If you read the site I referenced it has some good info about the improper use of tongues.

Peace.

[Peaceful Dove]

It has been my experience in the Charismatic Renewal that there are at least three different types of tongues as well as variations of each.
This has pretty well been confirmed by teachers over the years in the Renewal.

The first type is the Gift of tongues that was given at Pentecost. There is a definate variation with this gift. When Peter spoke, he was heard by each group in his own language. However, there is the gift where the person is speaking in a language, almost always to someone present. This is a known and recorded language although often times it is an ancient language all but forgotten. I have been present when a person who could not have known an asian dialect spoke in the persence of someone who actually spoke the dialect as a first language. Another time, I was told about someone who spoke a very old Native American language. There was one old person present who had spoken that language as a child, up until her elders had died. She immediately recognized it and translated it. In both these cases the person was Praising the Lord.

The second type of tongues is the one where a person gets a prophesy of Word from God in an unknown tongue and there is a interpretation of tongues from someone who interprets spritually. I have seen it, and in fact one time received the interpretation and didn't speak out out and then someone else spoke precisely what I received. A variation, I believe of this is a lady in our prayer group that gets words in tongues over a person being prayed for or a situation being prayed for and then receives the interpretation, herself. This has been questioned as being non-scriptural but others are convinced this is a real gift. The words she gets are usually confirmed.
The third type is what we call our Prayer Language. Praying in tongues. We also sing in tongues.
All three of these are scriptural. All three bear fruit.
I would guess that the utterances mentioned in this thread fits into one of the three.
However, there are some mainline Pentecostals and even some Catholic Charismatics who believe that there are four gifts of tongues but no one has demonstrated that to me as of yet.

Oh By the way, in my nearly 40 years in the Charismatic Renewal, I have found the second type, the one that requires an interpeter to be the rarest. The Prayer language the most common.

[CatholicFlame]

I agree Peaceful,

What I have heard is that many many times people have been praising the Lord in tongues, in a group and without official interpreters, and someone there who is visiting just so happens to speak some other language and it like "whoa, do you know what you just said? You were saying part of the euchaistic prayer in greek!"

Stories like this abound in the renewal and have been confirmed many times over. I have heard people interpret St. Paul as saying that we should not pray in tongues out loud as a group, but I find this to be not based upon the actual experiences of the Charismatic Renewal. In fact, as sad as it is, I have met a priest, and I don't know if there are many others, who were once involved with the renewal but left it, only because of that scripture that paul says that if there is no interpreter, the people should just pray between God and themselves. But I believe that Paul is speaking of the gift of Speaking in Tongues (foriegn languages) and not the gift of estatic utterances.

The hardest to accept is that I have felt extreme love pour over us when thousands of people were praying in tongues as a group. Also, the ones who said not to pray in tongues as a group end up leaving not just the renewal but also all the other charismatic gifts of the Spirit. The fruit is that they go backwards. While those who accept the gifts go forward.

Joab, it sounds like the person who wrote that article on tongues does not even participate in the Charismatic Renewal. Otherwise, I would think that he would support it and understand that although tongues is indeed a lesser gift, it is the gift that opens the doorway to all the others, for the up-building of the Church. Sometimes experience just opens up our eyes to what the bible is saying.

[Peaceful Dove]

I hae heard people interpret St. Paul as saying that we should not pray in tongues out loud as a group,...
In fact, as sad as it is, I have met a priest, and I don't know if there are many others, who were once involved with the renewal but left it, only because of that scripture that paul says that if there is no interpreter, the people should just pray between God and themselves. ....

.
It just goes to show you that we Catholics are as guilty as anyone else of taking scripture out of context and not examining all of the writings on the subject.
Each of the three types of tongues I documented are spelled out pretty clearly in Scripture.

We need some good teachings on them here in the forums. Maybe we need to put some together.
I just need some time for something other than work and Christmas shopping and family. LOL HAHAHAHA, THAT WILL BE THE DAY.

[JoabAnias]

Joab, it sounds like the person who wrote that article on tongues does not even participate in the Charismatic Renewal. Otherwise, I would think that he would support it and understand that although tongues is indeed a lesser gift, it is the gift that opens the doorway to all the others, for the up-building of the Church. Sometimes experience just opens up our eyes to what the bible is saying.

The site is owned by John Salza and he seems orthodox.

Do you feel He was against the ccr?

I do not get that at all. I guess the mention of tongues as a lesser gift may have given you that idea. I hope it didn't offend you.

I think the warnings St. Paul gave to the Corinthians are important, especially for the renewal. I have seen what he speaks about first hand both within and outside the church and it raised up false teachers on 4-5 occasions I can think of. This doesn't have to be the case though if St. Pauls guidlines are used as a means to determine what is legitimate. In fact if they aren't then the door is open for the undoing that St. Paul speaks of. I totally agree a prayer language of praise is edifying if its not scandalizing our brother and imho the remainder of the gifts flow from humility and obedience to God.

Peace.

[JoabAnias]

It just goes to show you that we Catholics are as guilty as anyone else of taking scripture out of context and not examining all of the writings on the subject.
Each of the three types of tongues I documented are spelled out pretty clearly in Scripture.

Yes us individual Catholics do that but not the Church herself.

Or not in the proper context of the totallity of scripture. We can't pick and choose what to believe and not believe from scripture. Paul says enough to the Corinthians to be clear on the matter of abuse.

I think its great the Church is exploring the ccr after having mandated devotion to the Holy Spirit as private for so long yet to be a part of the Church we must ascend to all its dogmas (http://www.theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm) and not get ahead of her in her descernments.

Peace.

[CatholicFlame]

Hey Joab,

Well I don't believe that John Salza operates in the charismatic gifts, especialy tongues. Let me just say why I believe that, because after I logged off a little while ago, this was really bothering me. I prayed hard, to put it mildly. hehe

okay so here is what the Lord revealed to me about it.

John said something that really shows where he is at in understanding the gift of tongues. He said:

there are a few recorded instances of saints speaking in tongues over the centuries (Sts. Dominic, Anthony of Padua, Francis Xavier, John of the Cross, Ignatius of Loyola). This demonstrates that the gift of tongues is very rare, and given to the holiest of people.

okay so listen to what I believe that the Lord revealed to me: So if John has the gift of tongues, he must think that he is one of the holiest people! lol
So either he has the gift of tongues and the gift of pride or he doesn't have the gift of tongues. lol I think he just doesn't have the gift and is trying to teach something he hardly understands.

I don't think that he knows what is really understood about who can and who does receive the gift of tongues.

There are a few other things that I found on the site that bother me about his teaching on tongues. Don't get me wrong, I have used his website many times in helping to understand the teachings of the early church fathers and he has some good quotes there, but I think him trying to teach about tongues would be not getting it from the horses mouth.

It is kind of like asking a non-catholic to tell you what it is like being catholic. lol, maybe some truth would be there, but of course that truth would have some bias and misunderstanding.

Now you can ask a faithful catholic what it is like being catholic and you will probably get a better result.

Nowadays, everybody is a scholar. Even on things they have only read about! That is why I believe that the author of the site has a bias against tongues. He says some other things that are harmful to someone who is looking into the renewal too, and I guess I wouldn't recommend him to be a teacher on charismatic gifts. I don't know how deep that bias goes, but the fruit of reading his page could make someone not want to go to a prayer meeting. He speaks some fear into his readers on the gift of tongues, but there is no fear needed. Maybe discernment, but not teaching with fear.

[JoabAnias]

I have seen it, and in fact one time received the interpretation and didn't speak out out and then someone else spoke precisely what I received.

Had the same thing happen too.

A variation, I believe of this is a lady in our prayer group that gets words in tongues over a person being prayed for or a situation being prayed for and then receives the interpretation, herself. This has been questioned as being non-scriptural but others are convinced this is a real gift. The words she gets are usually confirmed.

Have seen this too. But have also seen false interpretations that made me wonder.


The third type is what we call our Prayer Language. Praying in tongues. We also sing in tongues.
All three of these are scriptural. All three bear fruit.
I would guess that the utterances mentioned in this thread fits into one of the three.


Yes the prayer language in pentacostal terminology would be forms of ejaculatory prayer and what I equate to prayer from the heart. For me there seems to be an element of emotion involved that is lifted to God within.

However, there are some mainline Pentecostals and even some Catholic Charismatics who believe that there are four gifts of tongues but no one has demonstrated that to me as of yet.

Me either.

Oh By the way, in my nearly 40 years in the Charismatic Renewal, I have found the second type, the one that requires an interpeter to be the rarest. The Prayer language the most common.

Me too. Perhaps this rare form is the one St. Paul speaks of ending.

Peace.

[JoabAnias]

Hey Joab,

Well I don't believe that John Salza operates in the charismatic gifts, especialy tongues. Let me just say why I believe that, becasue after I logged off a little while ago, this was really bothering me. I prayed hard, to put it mildly. hehe

okay so here is what the Lord revealed to me about it.

John said something that really shows where he is at in understanding the gift of tongues. He said:



okay so listen to what I believe that the Lord revealed to me: So if John has the gift of tongues, he must think that he is one of the holiest people! lol
So either he has the gift of tongues and the gift of pride or he doesn't have the gift of tongues. lol I think he just doesn't have the gift and is trying to teach something he hardly understands.

I don't think that he knows what is really understood about who can and who does receive the gift of tongues.

There are a few other things that I found on the site that bother me about his teaching on tongues. Don't get me wrong, I have used his website many times in helping to understand the teachings of the early church fathers and he has some good quotes there, but I think him trying to teach about tongues would be not getting it from the horses mouth.

It is kind of like asking a non-catholic to tell you what it is like being catholic. lol, maybe some truth would be there, but of course that truth would have some bias and misunderstanding.

Now you can ask a faithful catholic what it is like being catholic and you will probably get a better result.

Nowadays, everybody is a scholar. Even on things they have only read about! That is why I believe that the author of the site has a bias against tongues. He says some other things that are harmful to someone who is looking into the renewal too, and I guess I wouldn't recommend him to be a teacher on charismatic gifts. I don't know how deep that bias goes, but the fruit of reading his page could make someone not want to go to a prayer meeting. He speaks some fear into his readers on the gift of tongues, but there is no fear needed. Maybe discernment, but not teaching with fear.

I understand what your saying completely. I relate it entirely to the negatives I have seen in Pentacostal Churches and a couple of times even in the ccr and found it spot on about St Pauls warnings to the Corinthians. I would only recommend it for that purpose which is what I did.

That being said I do not think it negates the ccr in that it speaks about an important part of the truth that anyone involved with the ccr should be aware of to avoid confusion who God is not the author of.

The ccr is not perfected in structure and remains susceptable to what St. Paul teaches about the Corinthians as I have felt and seen it for myself which I must say left me personally confused over it for years as well as others I know who I consider very holy people.

I don't see anything said there instilling fear in me except the warnings of St. Paul where I think the focus should be.

I know this is something you must come to terms with but remember God isn't the author of confusion or contradictions. Only by coming to understand the warnings of Paul is the ccr going to attain the structure and protection of the Church it needs. Especially for the poorly orginized groups that get off the truth.

Sorry to seem a bit at odds tonight. Have you seen the time? :)

Peace brother.

[CatholicFlame]

Yes brother Joab, it was late when you wrote that.

Well Joab, I am really glad that you were sent to this website. I myself, you are probably going to find, am extremely devoted to prayer through the charismatic renewal. So you are going to get some of the other sides of the coin with me! I hope that we will not fight or at all hurt each others feelings in our talks because I consider you a brother truly and a fellow co-worker in the gospel. Working side by side with you in the other threads has been a real blessing for me. And I just hope that in this case, I will be able to show my appreciation to you for coming to join us at Christian forums.

And about your friends who have also left the renewal because of some verses, I hope that they too can receive consolation in this. Because it is truly sad to hear people who have left because of some verses that seem to be being misinterpreted. I am not sure if you see this, but in a way (of course not the same entirely) this is like when a catholic leaves the church after someone tells him that he is worshipping idols when it comes to statues. You can see how easy it is for someone to take scripture out of context.

So let's see here about this. You mentioned that you see some contraditions and confusion in the renewal and that you are basing this on some texts from St. Paul. I can see that actually the Lord has prepared the way in you to fix this problem because the part of scripture that we are talking about is one paragraph 1 Cor 14: 26-33 which ends with "God is not the author of confusion but of peace."

You are very right when you say that I must come to terms with this. If I am to really truly embrace the renewal, I should be able to understand that either we are wrong or we are right about the way in which we are worshipping when we pray in tongues together. Otherwise, these verses will convict me, unless there is some explanation and biblical exegesis.

I am glad to be able to learn this today. The Lord is indeed helping me as I type this.

So, here is the full scripture my brother:

So what is to be done, brothers? When you assemble, one has a psalm, another an instruction, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Everything should be done for building up.

If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be two or at most three, and each in turn, and one should interpret. But if there is no interpreter, the person should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God. Two or three prophets should speak, and the others discern. But if a revelation is given to another person sitting there, the first one should be silent.

For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged.

Indeed, the spirits of prophets are under the prophets' control, since he is not the God of disorder but of peace.

The context of the verse seems to be that the spirits of prophets are under the prophets control and in particular, if someone speaks in a tongue, there should be an interpreter. But notice the context seems to be referring to the gift of speaking prophetic utterances in tongues and not the gift of praising the Lord in tongues. I don't know if you have ever been in a prayer meeting where someone speaks a prophetic utterance in tongues. It is like a person speaks out in tongues and everyone is silent. Everyone is waiting for an interpretation. Can you imagine if there was a prayer meeting where people would speak out like one at a time and everyone else would be silent and no interpretation ever comes? over and over like this? St. Paul would be like "Don't speak out if there is no one to interpret!" Add this example I just gave to that of the paragraph being in the context of using spiritual gifts to upbuid the church.

Now St. paul also speaks of a gift of tongues that is not for the upbuilding of the church but is for personal praise and communication with God, which no one can interpret. If there is really such a gift, that no one can iinterpret, why would st. paul say that someone should interpret that gift? He can't be referring to that gift in the verese above, because that gift cannot be interpreted.

I hope this is clearing some things up bro!

you said earlier that:

Saint Paul says tongue-speaking must be done for the edification of the Church 1 Cor. 14:5,26. This means that ecstatic utterances can also build up the body of Christ. Though Saint Paul also says they should be interpreted if spoken aloud. 1Co 14:28 And if there is no interpreter, let him be silent in the assembly, and let him speak to himself and to God.

This is the state of my ecstatic utterances and I believe they were the same with John Paul II and many other people I know personally. Though I must admit the hearing of these utterances built me up into a more profound prayer life at one point even though there was no-one available to interpret them. I believe when they are sincere they can still have this effect even though there is no interpretation.

Speaking in tongues should definately be done for the upbuilding of the church.

Even estatic utterances should be done for the upbuilding of the church.

However the next thing that you have said I hope that I helped make clearer in what I said earlier.

What you said next was proof that God has shown you what good it is that praising God together in tongues is: As the Lord has sworn, you shall know them by their fruits.

Joab you said:
the hearing of these utterances built me up into a more profound prayer life at one point even though there was no-one available to interpret them.

Couple that with the many stories of people hearing someone speaking in a language known to them when others are praising and the faith that they received through that, and you will know for sure that this is not disorder but a great sign of God's presence.

I hope that we can continue this, for I believe that the Lord wants us to keep talking about this together now.

peace to you brother, and may the Lord continue to bless you

P.S. can you tell me what else you see as contradictions in the renewal to the scriptures? You spoke of some untruths, can we here who belong to the renewal help you understand our devotions?

[CatholicFlame]

I just wanted to add an example of what we are doing in the renewal when we pray together in tongues as a group praising God.

pretend you were a baby christian. And someone says "Hey! you catholics are not supposed to pray the Our Father together! Jesus says that you should go into your room and pray in private to your heavenly father. And then He puts that in context with the Our Father prayer which He teaches right afterwards! You are not supposed to pray in Tongues together!"

hmmph

There are reaons why we catholics do this together. It is because of many many factors. And If I went into all the reasons why we pray the our Father together, it would take years to explain. But just know that it is ok with Jesus my friend. And the Church knows what we are doing, they have not said even once that we should stop praying in this way. Almost every conference has some statement from the bishop saying that He supports us.

There is more to add, even that even the best scripture scholar can not understand everything all at once.

"the Lord arises, He is enthroned in majesty."

and Joab, we need someone like you back in the renewal. Because you truly have a heart for God. And He is pleased that you strive to keep His commandments.

[JoabAnias]

And about your friends who have also left the renewal because of some verses, I hope that they too can receive consolation in this. Because it is truly sad to hear people who have left because of some verses that seem to be being misinterpreted. I am not sure if you see this, but in a way (of course not the same entirely) this is like when a catholic leaves the church after someone tells him that he is worshipping idols when it comes to statues. You can see how easy it is for someone to take scripture out of context.
I think your missing the point here brother. No one has left. While some have left certain cenacles it is because of scriptures that were ignored and as a result they are run poorly. None see the whole of the CCR itself as any less efficacious because of that. Some groups are run poorly and get out of hand which is what St. Paul speaks of. Wisdom and discernment should take precedance.

So let's see here about this. You mentioned that you see some contraditions and confusion in the renewal and that you are basing this on some texts from Paul
I thought I said I have seen some contradictions in some cenacles and that the renewal is susceptible to them if not properly organized.

I can see that actually the Lord has prepared the way in you to fix this problem because the part of scripture that we are talking about is one paragraph 1 Cor 14: 26-33 which ends with "God is not the author of confusion but of peace."
My life’s schedule doesn't allow me to participate any more. Though I know of many CCR groups and Charismatic priests I would gladly participate with. Please don't get me wrong, I am not bashing the CCR movement in the least.

You are very right when you say that I must come to terms with this. If I am to really truly embrace the renewal, I should be able to understand that either we are wrong or we are right about the way in which we are worshipping when we pray in tongues together. Otherwise, these verses will convict me, unless there is some explanation and biblical exegesis.
Exactly. Sometimes people try too hard to embrace the Spirit and don't let the Spirit move them while others resist. We are faulty creatures. I see the same thing with the rubrics and canons of the liturgy.

I am glad to be able to learn this today. The Lord is indeed helping me as I type this.

So, here is the full scripture my brother:

So what is to be done, brothers? When you assemble, one has a psalm, another an instruction, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Everything should be done for building up.
That’s great. The biggest obstacles I have encountered is pride both in myself and within groups. Especially back during the beginning of the new millennia. People were freaking out and trying to control others dude. The prophesies weren't of God at all. It wasn't good.

If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be two or at most three, and each in turn, and one should interpret. But if there is no interpreter, the person should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God. Two or three prophets should speak, and the others discern. But if a revelation is given to another person sitting there, the first one should be silent.

For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged.

Indeed, the spirits of prophets are under the prophets' control, since he is not the God of disorder but of peace.

*The context of the verse seems to be that the spirits of prophets are under the prophets control and in particular, if someone speaks in a tongue, there should be an interpreter. But notice the context seems to be referring to the gift of speaking prophetic utterances in tongues and not the gift of praising the Lord in tongues. I don't know if you have ever been in a prayer meeting where someone speaks a prophetic utterance in tongues. It is like a person speaks out in tongues and everyone is silent. Everyone is waiting for an interpretation. Can you imagine if there was a prayer meeting where people would speak out like one at a time and everyone else would be silent and no interpretation ever comes? over and over like this? St. Paul would be like "Don't speak out if there is no one to interpret!" Add this example I just gave to that of the paragraph being in the context of using spiritual gifts to upbuid the church
You have grasped it! By the way, the last group I went to, a message was given and interpretation was asked for and never given because of pride.

St. Paul also speaks of a gift of tongues that is not for the upbuilding of the church but is for personal praise and communication with God, which no one can interpret. If there is really such a gift, that no one can iinterpret, why would st. paul say that someone should interpret that gift? He can't be referring to that gift in the verese above, because that gift cannot be interpreted.
Its still for building up the Church. I bolded your quote above. That gift too is edifying the Church because its praise to God and edifying the individual. Paul never says it’s not ok to build ourselves up spiritually by praising God. No interpretation is needed here because none is expected. I pray in this form frequently by myself. In my mind I hear the language and my heart is raised to God and both knows what I mean. Amongst others with the same gift, speaking this aloud is no less edifying yet during the liturgy it might be. See what I mean?

You said:

Speaking in tongues should definately be done for the upbuilding of the church.

Even estatic utterances should be done for the upbuilding of the church.
I am re-iterating what St. Paul teaches who says speaking in tongues should be done for the building up of the Church.

1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself: but he that prophesieth, edifieth the church.

1Co 14:5 And I would have you all to speak with tongues, but rather to prophesy. For greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues: unless perhaps he interpret, that the church may receive edification.

1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? When you come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a revelation, hath a tongue, hath an interpretation: let all things be done to edification.

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to believers but to unbelievers: but prophecies, not to unbelievers but to believers.

The CCR is building up the Church in the Spirit for those who attend the meetings just as raising ones hands to the heavens in Mass is. It’s under our control though.

Can you tell me what else you see as contradictions in the renewal to the scriptures? You spoke of some untruths, can we here who belong to the renewal help you understand our devotions?
No not really. I used to think that it would be nice if the Church would come up with a format to follow but then I realized you cannot really restrain this movement more than the Holy Scripture and Church already does. I find the members always well meaning people. The Corinthians Paul speaks of were well meaning. Good intentions aren't a guarantee of truth however.

Contradictions and untruths are going to happen. Its not the fault of the movement but of men. If you had ever seen what St. Paul describes the Corinthians doing then perhaps you would understand better. You probably won't ever see it in the CCR and would need to join a PentecostalChurch to do so. I had the experience of leasing and monitoring a K of C hall to a displaced PentecostalChurch for an extended period once that put St. Paul’s teaching into much better perspective for me.

1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in unlearned persons or infidels, will they not say that you are mad?

1Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not or an unlearned person, he is convinced of all: he is judged of all.

Peace.

[JoabAnias]

Joab, we need someone like you back in the renewal.

I expect to attend again in due time.

Peace.

[Peaceful Dove]

Saint Paul says the gift will cease in 1 Cor. 13:8

1Co 13:8 Love never fails. But if there are prophecies, they will be caused to cease; if tongues, they shall cease; if knowledge, it will be caused to cease.

If I were to loose any gift but were to gain in Love then it would make no difference.



I love this scripture. No where does Paul say when these gifts will cease.
We know they have not ceased because they are not only in operation but with the newest wave of the Spirit is increasing.

So the time for "ceasing" is somewhere down the road.
The Catholic Charismatic Renewal is almost a baby if we look at this huge wave of the Holy Spirit as starting less than 40 years ago. We saw the first wave, then it's ebb but we are now seeing a new wave.
Will it be bigger? Only God knows.

We so know that the time has not come for the gifts to cease.

So... Be not afraid. :clap: :clap:

[CatholicFlame]

Well brother Joab, I guess we I learned one thing from you, you should never type debate material in the middle of the night! You seem like a new person today, and I am glad to read your posts that you have sent.

:)


The gifts of the Spirit are still being understood in the church. We are all learning what works and what doesn't. Now scripture is a real blessing in this, no doubt.

Of course we may not completely agree , but I am not quite sure really! I don't even know if it is my duty to ask you these questions really. Maybe I can just trust that the Lord will handle what needs to be handled, after all who am I? His servant yes, but the corrector of His people, probably not.

Here in the renewal where we live, and I think worldwide really, we all pray in tongues together as a community, the kind of prayer that is praise of God in a language we do not even understand. LOL people must think we are mad. hehe

I am not sure what you meant when you said that I had grasped it. I am not sure what you saw that I needed to grasp. hmm. Do you mean that I saw the context of when Paul says someone should not speak out in tongues? I do definately, when there is no one to interpret as the apostle says.

I am not sure if you understand what I meant about praying / praising in tongues though. I don't think that St. paul could be referring to that , because as He has explained to us, no human understands it. This is a different gift of tongues that he is speaking of right?

One of the reasons why I say this is because of the great fruits we have seen in this type of praise. I mean seriously, the fruits have been manifold and are still growing. I am sure that many have received the gift of tongues when someone has prayed over them with none other than the gift of tongues!

LOl, if they didin't pray out loud in togues at that time because of some restriction on praying in tongues out loud, lol, nobody would ever receive the gift like it has been given so much. We would have to wait for the Dusquene weekend to happen for each and every catholic. Speaking of which, they first learned of through pentecostals. well, God is mysterious and His church is very very mysterious too.

I hope this really helps. I don't even know if you think we are wrong to pray in tongues out loud brother Joab. You seem to be saying two different things, although it is probably my fault, because I need you to interpret!
;)

God loves ya bro

[JoabAnias]

I love this scripture. No where does Paul say when these gifts will cease.
We know they have not ceased because they are not only in operation but with the newest wave of the Spirit is increasing.

So the time for "ceasing" is somewhere down the road.
The Catholic Charismatic Renewal is almost a baby if we look at this huge wave of the Holy Spirit as starting less than 40 years ago. We saw the first wave, then it's ebb but we are now seeing a new wave.
Will it be bigger? Only God knows.

We so know that the time has not come for the gifts to cease.

So... Be not afraid. :clap: :clap:

I always took that scripture to mean that the gifts may end for an individual like when I forget something I have learned or die perhaps, not the Church.

But if you have Love it doesn't matter.

I have always envisioned the CCR returning something to the Church. Something that was present in the way the apostles prayed and praised with hands raised high and their love for God showed that is missing in those who become spiritually stagnant.

Peace.

[JoabAnias]

Well brother Joab, I guess we I learned one thing from you, you should never type debate material in the middle of the night! You seem like a new person today, and I am glad to read your posts that you have sent.

Not only that but I have been fighting and working with the flu for 3 days. Today my top lip looks like it has had botox from the fever.

The gifts of the Spirit are still being understood in the church. We are all learning what works and what doesn't. Now scripture is a real blessing in this, no doubt.

I think they gifts are perfectly understood by the Church. Just not by most of us.

Of course we may not completely agree , but I am not quite sure really! I don't even know if it is my duty to ask you these questions really. Maybe I can just trust that the Lord will handle what needs to be handled, after all who am I? His servant yes, but the corrector of His people, probably not.

Complete agreement isn't required for assembly. ;)
I think its great to ask these questions. I learn alot this way. I think the Lord definitly guides the Church. So long as the CCR doesn't take a side alley and become a schism then were good to go. I am not corrector either. I just have French blood which gives me really over bearing opinions. That and the anonyminity of this form of communication makes it that much easier to spout off. I have been descerning much of what I speak about from experience the best I can within the guidlines of the Church though. The last thing I would ever want to do is steer anyone wrong, and I always strive to be humble though fail at that allot. The Lord takes care of that for me most of the time. ;)

Here in the renewal where we live, and I think worldwide really, we all pray in tongues together as a community, the kind of prayer that is praise of God in a language we do not even understand. LOL people must think we are mad. hehe

I did it tonight on my drive. If my prayer language is a real language they haven't found the tribe yet. But just the same I know the feelings and whats in my head and heart for God at that moment is a gift.


I am not sure what you meant when you said that I had grasped it.

That I thought you had the correct understanding.

I am not sure what you saw that I needed to grasp.
Didn't see anything. Just approving of what you said.


I am not sure if you understand what I meant about praying / praising in tongues though. I don't think that St. paul could be referring to that , because as He has explained to us, no human understands it. This is a different gift of tongues that he is speaking of right?


I believe so. I think this is also the kind that Paul warns us not to scandalize our brothers with. You know, the stiff shirts. Its better to witness and show love than to flaunt our gifts right?

LOl, if they didin't pray out loud in togues at that time because of some restriction on praying in tongues out loud, lol, nobody would ever receive the gift like it has been given so much.

I know allot of people who have the gift but are sometimes embarassed to use it in public. (Self included) I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

I don't even know if you think we are wrong to pray in tongues out loud brother Joab.

No I don't in the proper setting but just as a pastor has a responsibility to not lead a single soul astray with his gifts so too does a responsibility apply to how this gift is used. I believe that is what St. Paul conveys in his message.

I just got off work a few hrs ago. Be back around supper time.

Peace.

P.S. I once attended a Charismatic healing Mass led by a Bishop and the Church had a traditional High Altar. You would have enjoyed that.

night night.

[Peaceful Dove]

I always took that scripture to mean that the gifts may end for an individual like when I forget something I have learned or die perhaps, not the Church.

But if you have Love it doesn't matter.

I have always envisioned the CCR returning something to the Church. Something that was present in the way the apostles prayed and praised with hands raised high and their love for God showed that is missing in those who become spiritually stagnant.

Peace.

We believe the Catholic Charismatic Renewal will, indeed return something to the Church.

For instance, at a Charismatic Conference in Anaheim several years ago, I saw many young men come forward who believed they were being called to the Priesthood and they were responding to that call.

I try to attend this SCRC Conference (www.scrc.org (http://www.scrc.org) )every Labor Day weekend. This was my greater Prayer community for many years.

I was talking to a group of Carmelite Sisters, all Charismatic and all in long habits by the way. They are getting vocations, so are some of the other Charismatic communities.

I also believe that the Renewal is working and praying for Unity between our non-Catholic brothers and sisters.

[CatholicFlame]

Hey Peaceful,

I know those sisters, they are the Carmelite sisters of the Most Sacred Heart. they are really Carmelites and also realy charismatics. whoa, that is very cool. My freind from here in the bay area moved back home to Los Angeles recently and is discerning a vocation with them. I think she is going to join! WOW!

Here is their website for anyone who might want to know just what we are talking about.

http://www.carmel-msh.org

Ya know what, I just had an idea fro a new thread here. About embracing both the traditional and charismatic aspects of the faith. You guys inspired me! Yeah, I find it really beautiful that when we share like this in humility, as you have all been doing, the Spirit flows and we see blessings!

Prasie the Lord for His presence with us!

[MoNiCa4316]

Another thing that I was thinking about is your praise and worship time.
Do you attend a Prayer meeting or worship service where there is much praying and singing in tongues?
I think it is easy to get out of the habit unless there is a strong committment to maybe weekly praise and worship.
I am also praying for you.

:wave: I really want to read every post here and reply...unfortunately I'm in the middle of studying, lol, and I'm just taking a ten minute break...so I'll have to come back later for this :)
However I just wanted to answer your question Peaceful Dove; I actually don't go to prayer and worship where people pray in tongues...I dont' go to a charismatic church, and I actually don't know many charismatics. In fact..I've never really prayed with people in tongues..ever! lol..except once, when I was praying with this girl and she began speaking in tongues I think, but quietly. So I don't even know what that's like, really... mostly I know about the charismatic movement from these forums. My own experience has been somewhat limited. I really want to visit a charismatic prayer meeting sometime though! Maybe that'll get me speaking in tongues again ;)
thank you for your prayers! :)
God bless

monica