Looking for Direction

[TheMissingLink]

I posted this over in another forum for a chaplain response, but was hoping to get some replies here too.

I grew up in a Baptist church, attending 2-3 times a week until my teenage years. I "fell away" from the church for a long time. I'm now 33 years old and have been dating my girlfriend for about six years. She was raised Catholic, and thinking ahead about marriage, I wanted to learn more about the difference in Baptist and Catholicism. After reading about Catholicism and the Protestant movement that split the church, I began to wonder which was the "true" church. I decided to go back as far as I could with church history to try to determine which was correct. My problem now is, through my reading I have began to doubt alot about Christianity. I've began to believe that maybe Jesus was just a great Jewish prophet who was crucified for his preaching, and after his death his "legend" was embellished to create "The Christ". I don't want to believe this but I can't help it now. I have serious doubts about Christianity and I don't know what to do. Can anyone give me any guidance?

[Project 86]

I posted this over in another forum for a chaplain response, but was hoping to get some replies here too.

I grew up in a Baptist church, attending 2-3 times a week until my teenage years. I "fell away" from the church for a long time. I'm now 33 years old and have been dating my girlfriend for about six years. She was raised Catholic, and thinking ahead about marriage, I wanted to learn more about the difference in Baptist and Catholicism. After reading about Catholicism and the Protestant movement that split the church, I began to wonder which was the "true" church. I decided to go back as far as I could with church history to try to determine which was correct. My problem now is, through my reading I have began to doubt alot about Christianity. I've began to believe that maybe Jesus was just a great Jewish prophet who was crucified for his preaching, and after his death his "legend" was embellished to create "The Christ". I don't want to believe this but I can't help it now. I have serious doubts about Christianity and I don't know what to do. Can anyone give me any guidance?

Hi, I'll start my stating that whatever Jesus was it was not some great Jewish prophet and nothing else. Would a great Jewish prophet lie about being God and the promised Messiah? We have early texts that give strong evidence that this was not latter added in. Also many died because they believed Jesus was the Messiah and that he died and was raised again. People may die for a lie but you would be hard pressed to find people that would die for a lie that THEY KNEW was a lie! You have to believe this was the case for many though if you think Jesus was just some great prophet and nothing more. I'll give you a link where you can read about where I would say Catholics stray away from the original teachings of Jesus. To sum it up though the biggest thing is that they believe that salvation is not by grace alone.

I, myself, grew up in a Christian home. I was went to a Lutheran elementary school and was confirmed Lutheran. I was never a Christian though even though at the time I thought I was and the world would have labeled me in that way. In my teens I stopped going to church, got into drugs and drinking and I also even got into Satanism for a time. I wanted nothing to do with God. When I was about 24 though and after suffering sever depression for over a year I finally broke down at my bed and confessed to God that I have sinned and that I repent and put my trust in him as my Lord and Savior. I prayed that I would understand him like I never did before. He has answered those prayers and now I'm a new creature. Something I was not before. I also hope you read the article I wrote at the link below about being a Christian. It is based of not only personal experience but more importantly the Word of God. Feel free to ask me any question. It sounds like we may have some things similar in our pasts.

ROMAN CATHOLOCISM (http://www.carm.org/catholic.htm)

Are You A Christian? (http://www.issuesthatmatter.com/christian.htm)

[daveleau]

First, belief is grounded on faith that has evidence to back it, but not prove it without a shadow of a doubt. So, before going further, you must decide if answers coming from the Bible are going to be "enough" for you. For me, they are. This is because of the reliability of Scripture being written by 40+ authors over a 1500 year period, yet syncing up with the same message.

First, look at the Old Testament's statements about who the Messiah will be. There are well over 200 prophesies about the Messiah, all of which are perfectly fulfilled by Jesus in the NT. With these, many are fulfilled by others wholly unwilling to prove Jesus is the Christ.

As for history, and looking back through the Church, know that these histories are all slanted one way or the other. When did the Catholic Church begin? 33AD? 325 AD? Sometime in the 5th Century? It depends on who you ask.

One must also ask, where do I get my answers. Do I get them from the Bible alone or do I rely on church writers that vary in their interpretation of the Bible? My thinking is that the Bible is sufficient, which is a stance that harkens back to 325AD and Athanasius (a church father who stood against the very idea that Jesus was not fully God and who was the reason for the Council of Nicea) .

My basis for faith is bolstered by my understanding of science, as I was a biology major in school. I look at the complexity of the world and how there is utterly no way it could occur by chance. This is my beginning argument for my reasoning behind my faith. Then, what do we have that explains this Creator? I believe that is the Bible, which I believe is the Word of God, as 40+ people over 1500+ years could not come up with such a cohesive document without overarching guidance. Then, I look at the prophesies about Jesus and see them fulfilled in the New Testament. I see what it says about salvation, and that faith in Jesus is required for this salvation. This is why I am convinced that I must have faith when there are things I do not know.

My advice would be to not look to history. It is flawed in its recording, and those living it were flawed to begin with. No church system is perfect. The Catholic Church has had its heaping share with the massive Papal corruption in the Middle Ages, and with recent events. The Protestant churches have also had their heaping share with the myriad of heresies like those of the JWs, Mormons, and other cults, the arguing, and similar corruption found in the Catholic Church. No man-made organization is fully correct or without error.

At the same time, know that the Catholic Church and Protestant churches try their hardest to lead people to God through Jesus Christ. If you resolve this faith issue (I pray you do), it does not matter as much which church you choose as to your reliance on Jesus through faith for salvation. Catholics teach this at the heart of their catechisms, even if Protestants do not always see it this way because of their focus on works and things we see as ritual and superstitious tradition. Likewise, Protestants disagree on many matters of faith and interpretation which is equally concerning.

Regardless, rely on Scripture for your answers. Do not rely on some outside writer for answers. Use outside writers to point you to Scripture only.

Here are some pointers on prophesy regarding Jesus:
http://members.datafast.net.au/sggram/f986.htm
http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/messiah/messiah.htm
http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/prophecy.htm
http://www.biblestudy.org/prophecy/prophecies-fulfilled-when-jesus-died.html


I hope this helps. I know what it is like to be away from the faith and then return. I grew up in a Pentecostal Holiness church and then went to school and spent 10 years outside of the church. I too looked for answers when coming back, and found them in the Bible and in the reasoning I listed above.

I pray you find the answers that lead you to God and His Son, Jesus.

In Christ,
Dave

[DeaconDean]

I grew up in a Pentecostal Holiness church

I would have never figured you for a "Spirit Filled/Charasmatic" type.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Yekcidmij]

My problem now is, through my reading I have began to doubt alot about Christianity. I've began to believe that maybe Jesus was just a great Jewish prophet who was crucified for his preaching, and after his death his "legend" was embellished to create "The Christ". I don't want to believe this but I can't help it now. I have serious doubts about Christianity and I don't know what to do. Can anyone give me any guidance?


What Catholics and Baptists do agree on is that Jesus died and rose. Look at the 4 gospels. They all agree that Jesus was crucified and that 3 days later His tomb was found empty by His women followers. Why would it bother to mention women finding the empty tomb? The testimony of women was not admissable as evidence back then. Look at the disciples. They had all but abandoned Jesus after He was arrested. Peter denied him 3 times. They were hiding in fear after the crucifixion. Why? Because they may have been next! But what caused them to go from hiding in fear to proclaiming and even dying for their faith? It's because they believed they had seen the risen Christ. Even after they had seen the empty tomb their reaction was still not belief in a resurrection. They ended up believing after they had seen Him. How crazy it would have been to make it up. Maybe they hid the body. But why die for what you know was a lie? How would you get the original 12 disciples to all agree to persecution for a known lie? Maybe they just think they saw things. But all 12 of them, including Thomas who doubted up to the point where he actually touched the scars? And what about Paul? A die hard Pharisee and very strict follower of Judaism and no friend to Christianity. Why the change? Why would he forsake all his traditional beliefs by claiming to have seen the risen Christ unless he really believed he had? What about the others who claimed to have seen the risen Christ? Besides, where was the body? All someone (a non-believer, a disciple, a Jew, anyone..) ever had to do was produce the corpse.

Here's a couple of really good sources they go more into depth.

Greg Koukl's site: www.str.org (http://www.str.org)

William Lane Craig's site: www.reasonablefaith.org (http://www.reasonablefaith.org) He is a Christian, evangelical philosopher and did his doctrinal work specifically on the resurrection. His book "Reasonable Faith" is excellent. You have to register on his site to read all of his articles, but it's free and doesn't lead to spam. I highly reccommend checking him out.


Usually the objection to the resurrection isn't based on textual or historical evidence. It's usually based on not being able to believe in miracles. If God exists and is omnipotent, a resurrection is no problem for Him and the historical and textual evidence seems to agree that indeed, it was no problem for Him.

[HappyChicken]

I struggled with this very same problem. I prayed, prayed and prayed.... and eventually God put me where he wants me.

[eldermike]

The only claim that put Jesus on the cross is that He was God. There were preachers then and now that preach all manner of lies, if Jesus had been one of those his claims would have been exposed and proven lies and he would have been set free to make a fool out of himself.
The cross is the proof you are looking for. Jesus went to the cross claiming he was God.
He's one of three things: Liar - crazy man - Lord
Great Jewish prophet is not a logical choice, the three I mention here are the only logical choices.
If he were a liar, no cross.
If he were a crazy man - no cross
You see, if they let him live his insanity would become known, or his lies would be exposed.
He's Lord - God
Amen

[Yekcidmij]

How do you prove that one?

What's your evidence against them?


How do you know?


Why must I follow the golden rule? Why must I accept any of your beliefs?

Are you an expert that should be counseling someone on this? If your not an expert then you shouldn't be telling anyone where to go. If you are an expert then nobody can go farther than themselves, which rules out accepting your particular view.

[MrJim]

My advice would be to not look to history. It is flawed in its recording, and those living it were flawed to begin with. No church system is perfect. The Catholic Church has had its heaping share with the massive Papal corruption in the Middle Ages, and with recent events. The Protestant churches have also had their heaping share with the myriad of heresies like those of the JWs, Mormons, and other cults, the arguing, and similar corruption found in the Catholic Church. No man-made organization is fully correct or without error.



Kinda sad that the church has been such a failure that it has no valid recognizable history to point toward~all that is relevant is the here and now...:scratch:

Surely there is something salvagable?

[Yekcidmij]

I see you appearently have an inconsistent view; same old same old.


The problem wasn't necessarily the golden rule. The problem was that you said people are free to believe whatever they want as long as it makes sense to them. Then you turn around and tell them to follow the golden rule and 'fuss' at me as if you want people to hold a moral duty to something other than themselves. So in fact, your statements were inconsistent.

Then you proceed with more inconsistency by telling him the only expert on religion are individual people themselves. Well, then who made you the better expert on religion to tell us that? Why do you get to tell us to accept your views on religion if it's true as you say that we are our own experts? Just more inconsistency. Same old same old.

[aiki]

Well said, Yekcidmij!

Peace to you.

[MrJim]

aw gee, maybe the baptist/buddhist debate can be done somewhere else :D

[edb19]

From CF rules (link at the bottom of every page):
Congregational Forums wishing to remain safe havens may choose to limit debate to members of their own denomination, insist that all posts conform to their creed etc.

From the Baptist guidelines - sticky on main Baptist page:
II. General guidelines
1. All are welcome to come post in the Baptist forum for friendship, fellowship, and conversation, but debate is limited to Baptists only. Debate is defined as an informal or formal discussion of
opposing viewpoints. Debating posts by nonBaptists are subject to moderator action.
2. Posting a link to a site or post that presents teaching opposed to a Baptist viewpoint is also considered debate.

[TheMissingLink]

Thank you for all the replies. It definitely gives me more to think about. Sorry to create such a debate in the Baptist forum.

[TheMissingLink]

No, not at all JGL53. I definitely would like to here from someone who is an ex-Baptist. Thank you for your comments.

[daveleau]

Kinda sad that the church has been such a failure that it has no valid recognizable history to point toward~all that is relevant is the here and now...:scratch:

Surely there is something salvagable?

There are some better than others, but there are two sides to the Protestant Catholic split, and rarely are both sides discussed indepth or without bias.

Looking at the early church writings is a good way of knowing about the early church. But, one must not put too much weight on these writings, as they are as fallible as anything outside of the Bible.

[Project 86]

No, not at all JGL53. I definitely would like to here from someone who is an ex-Baptist. Thank you for your comments.

I for one hope you stick around. There typical is not much debating in the Baptist forum and certainly not between Baptists and nonBaptists because that is not allowed unless it is in the debate part of the Baptist forum. I didn't want you to get a first bad impression and hope to hear more from you in the future.