Jermemiah 10 and Christmas..

[Koontzy]

whats your opinion?

ther verses state:
"Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen.... For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."

some pastors I know state this refers to cutting a tree and carving it into an idol.... But i dont see that... It says a tree, then decorate it with tinsel and gold and faten it with hammer and nails so it doesnt move... I read the whole chapter also....and IMO I dont think I am taking it out of context..

other christmas traditions are pagan....I want to say the following info is from 2 years of research that myself and my church did...

In ancient Babylon, the feast of the Son of Isis (goddess of Nature) was celebrated on December 25. Raucous partying, gluttonous eating and drinking, and gift-giving were traditions of this feast.
sounds alot like our christmas doesnt it;)
Huge Yule logs were burned in honor of the sun. The word Yule itself means “wheel,” the wheel being a pagan symbol for the sun. Mistletoe was considered a sacred plant, and the custom of kissing under the mistletoe began as a fertility ritual. Hollyberries were thought to be a food of the gods.

The tree is the one symbol that unites almost all the northern European winter solstices. Live evergreen trees were often brought into homes during the harsh winters as a reminder to inhabitants that soon their crops would grow again. Evergreen boughs were sometimes carried as totems of good luck and were often present at weddings, representing fertility. The Druids used the tree as a religious symbol, holding their sacred ceremonies while surrounding and worshipping huge trees.




what do you all think about it?



Just wondering...

[Canuckmom]

To me there's little doubt that Christ Mass comes to us from ancient paganism via the Catholic Church. Years ago we read a booklet by Michael Scneider, Is Christmas Christian, from www.mountzion.org (http://www.mountzion.org) and that really set me thinking and researching more.

Meanwhile I see the religious world trying to put Christ back into Christmass when He was never there to begin with. Let the pagans have it, it was their's to start with!

[R.J.S]

I agree that Christians should not celebrate Christmas. A brilliant sermon series can be found here: http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=121806115551

[rainbowpromises]

My own research into the subject several years ago changed the way I focused this time of year. At first I avoided things to do with Christmas, now I have adapted to putting Christ above the worldviews, hopefully at all times of year.

[aiki]

Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cuts a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman with the axe.
Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
Jer 10:5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
some pastors I know state this refers to cutting a tree and carving it into an idol.... But i dont see that... It says a tree, then decorate it with tinsel and gold and faten it with hammer and nails so it doesnt move... I read the whole chapter also....and IMO I dont think I am taking it out of context..
You didn't mention verse 5, Koontzy, which strengthens the idea that what is written about here refers to idols, not Christmas trees. Christ's cross is referred to in Scripture as a "tree" (Ac. 5:30; 10:39; 1 Pe. 2:24) but it is not. It is not unreasonable, then, to think that what is "decked with silver and gold" is not a literal tree, but that which is made from the tree -- just as Christ's cross was not a literal tree, but that which was made from a tree.

Jeremiah's words about the "tree" speaking and being unable to move about are also very suggestive of a carved wooden idol -- one with a mouth and hands and feet.

What would you do with those people who don't use gold or silver tinsel to decorate their Christmas tree? Are they okay, then? Or do you expand the intent of this part of the verse to encompass all decorating of trees? If you do, it seems rather inconsistent to narrowly define the intent of the verse when it is speaking of trees and then expand it widely when it is speaking of decorating.

other christmas traditions are pagan....I want to say the following info is from 2 years of research that myself and my church did...

In ancient Babylon, the feast of the Son of Isis (goddess of Nature) was celebrated on December 25. Raucous partying, gluttonous eating and drinking, and gift-giving were traditions of this feast.
sounds alot like our christmas doesnt it;)

Huge Yule logs were burned in honor of the sun. The word Yule itself means “wheel,” the wheel being a pagan symbol for the sun. Mistletoe was considered a sacred plant, and the custom of kissing under the mistletoe began as a fertility ritual. Hollyberries were thought to be a food of the gods.

The tree is the one symbol that unites almost all the northern European winter solstices. Live evergreen trees were often brought into homes during the harsh winters as a reminder to inhabitants that soon their crops would grow again. Evergreen boughs were sometimes carried as totems of good luck and were often present at weddings, representing fertility. The Druids used the tree as a religious symbol, holding their sacred ceremonies while surrounding and worshipping huge trees.All of the above falls under the bad argument tactic called the "Genetic Fallacy." You're trying to suggest that all which arises from a bad origin must also necessarily be bad. This is not so. The apostle Paul argued contrary to this kind of faulty thinking in 1 Corinthians 8. In this chapter he talks about meat offered to idols, which, with your reasoning, Koontzy, would make it absolutely taboo. But Paul doesn't say it is taboo. Instead, he says:

1Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

1Co 8:8 But meat commends us not to God: for neither if we eat are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

Paul does urge the Corinthian Christians to consider their weaker brother for whom eating meat offered to idols might be a problem. They ought not to eat such meat if it is offensive to that weaker brother - but not because it is evil meat, but rather because it is bad to offend one's brother.

When I sit down to a Christmas meal there is no thought of the Son of Isis. I don't laugh and sing and eat with my family and friends in celebration of this ancient pagan god. What I do with my family at our Christmas meal is totally disconnected from the ancient pagan past you want to link it to. I know, like Paul, that there is no Son of Isis; there is only One God, the birth of whose Son we worship at Christmas.

When we decorate the Christmas tree it is purely a fun thing. We aren't investing this activity with any pagan religious meaning whatsoever. What some druids hundreds of years ago might have done with an evergreen tree has absolutely no bearing on what I do with one today. I mean, really, what do you do with a whole forest of evergreens? Do you fear walking among them because evergreens were part of pagan worship centuries ago? Would you forbid making holly-berry jam (I'm not even sure you can eat holly berries) because some long-dead folk thought they were the food of the gods? Obviously not.

Anyway...I'm going to continue to enjoy Christmas as the time we celebrate Christ's birth, with all the trappings and traditions I've grown up enjoying, even if we've got the wrong date. As far as I'm concerned, its Christ's birth and not the actual date of it that I'm celebrating.

Merry Christmas!

Peace to you.

[Sphinx777]

Something else that I thought might be useful...

http://home.att.net/~wegast/symbols/seasons/seasons.html#christmas

[R.J.S]

As far as I'm concerned, its Christ's birth and not the actual date of it that I'm celebrating.

What warrant from Scripture do you have to invent Holy Days?

[aiki]

R.J.S you wrote:

What warrant from Scripture do you have to invent Holy Days?

Inventing Holy Days? What are you talking about?

Peace to you.

[Project 86]

R.J.S you wrote:



Inventing Holy Days? What are you talking about?

Peace to you.

He's probably talking about the idea of picking a day that isn't even close to being the right day of Jesus being born. I have heard that the Catholic Church picked the day they did because they want to honor God instead of pagan gods. I don't have quotes to back that up so if anyone has any feel free to post them. It is just something I have heard repeated often. Of course we all should know how trustworthy that can be. ;)

[Vambram]

Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cuts a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman with the axe.
Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
Jer 10:5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
You didn't mention verse 5, Koontzy, which strengthens the idea that what is written about here refers to idols, not Christmas trees. Christ's cross is referred to in Scripture as a "tree" (Ac. 5:30; 10:39; 1 Pe. 2:24) but it is not. It is not unreasonable, then, to think that what is "decked with silver and gold" is not a literal tree, but that which is made from the tree -- just as Christ's cross was not a literal tree, but that which was made from a tree.

Jeremiah's words about the "tree" speaking and being unable to move about are also very suggestive of a carved wooden idol -- one with a mouth and hands and feet.

What would you do with those people who don't use gold or silver tinsel to decorate their Christmas tree? Are they okay, then? Or do you expand the intent of this part of the verse to encompass all decorating of trees? If you do, it seems rather inconsistent to narrowly define the intent of the verse when it is speaking of trees and then expand it widely when it is speaking of decorating.

All of the above falls under the bad argument tactic called the "Genetic Fallacy." You're trying to suggest that all which arises from a bad origin must also necessarily be bad. This is not so. The apostle Paul argued contrary to this kind of faulty thinking in 1 Corinthians 8. In this chapter he talks about meat offered to idols, which, with your reasoning, Koontzy, would make it absolutely taboo. But Paul doesn't say it is taboo. Instead, he says:

1Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

1Co 8:8 But meat commends us not to God: for neither if we eat are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

Paul does urge the Corinthian Christians to consider their weaker brother for whom eating meat offered to idols might be a problem. They ought not to eat such meat if it is offensive to that weaker brother - but not because it is evil meat, but rather because it is bad to offend one's brother.

When I sit down to a Christmas meal there is no thought of the Son of Isis. I don't laugh and sing and eat with my family and friends in celebration of this ancient pagan god. What I do with my family at our Christmas meal is totally disconnected from the ancient pagan past you want to link it to. I know, like Paul, that there is no Son of Isis; there is only One God, the birth of whose Son we worship at Christmas.

When we decorate the Christmas tree it is purely a fun thing. We aren't investing this activity with any pagan religious meaning whatsoever. What some druids hundreds of years ago might have done with an evergreen tree has absolutely no bearing on what I do with one today. I mean, really, what do you do with a whole forest of evergreens? Do you fear walking among them because evergreens were part of pagan worship centuries ago? Would you forbid making holly-berry jam (I'm not even sure you can eat holly berries) because some long-dead folk thought they were the food of the gods? Obviously not.

Anyway...I'm going to continue to enjoy Christmas as the time we celebrate Christ's birth, with all the trappings and traditions I've grown up enjoying, even if we've got the wrong date. As far as I'm concerned, its Christ's birth and not the actual date of it that I'm celebrating.

Merry Christmas!

Peace to you.


Excellent, post! Amen! :amen: :thumbsup: :groupray:

[daveleau]

An understanding of history of Israel and cults they dealt with in the OT is required for understanding here.

Two gods are repeated in the OT: Baal and Ashteroth (this latter one differs in spelling between biblical books and translations).

Baal had idols, and Ashteroth had poles adorned with different decorations. These two gods were often worshipped together. Take your KJV and look for the word "groves." This word is translated as such there, but is a really intended to be "poles." It is a good marker to point out where God warns Israel regarding worship of these two gods, which is why I bring this up (it is not to say anything against the KJV).

1 Kings 14:23 is a good example. It discusses the problemed worship practiced in OT times regarding these gods.

This passage is directed at the Israelites and worship of Ashteroth and Baalim. It is not speaking about Christmas trees.

While I do not reject the application of the passage for today's mutilation of Christmas, one must realize what the passage originally intended to speak about.

In Him,
Dave

[DeaconDean]

Good point about the Ashteroth "Pole" dave. you stold my thunder. :D

God Bless

Till all are one.

[rainbowpromises]

What could come under attack here with that passage is the traditional May Pole celebration which many public school elementary students in Canada participate in on Victoria Day.

[Tea]

Inventing Holy Days? What are you talking about?



Probably that fact that no where in the bible are we instructed to celebrate Messiah's birth. Definately it was celebrated at the time, but no where is there a date or command to do so.
God expressly warns against making holy days from pagan days, and Dec 25th is the birthday of the sun god.
In Lev 23, God clearly tells us what His Holy days are.
Tracey

[aiki]

Probably that fact that no where in the bible are we instructed to celebrate Messiah's birth. Definately it was celebrated at the time, but no where is there a date or command to do so.

Nor is there an explicit command not to celebrate Christ's birth.

God expressly warns against making holy days from pagan days, and Dec 25th is the birthday of the sun god.

There is no sun god therefore he has no birthday. See also the remarks I made about the apostle Paul's view of eating meat offered to idols.

In Lev 23, God clearly tells us what His Holy days are.

He tells the Israelites what holy days He wants them to observe. I am a Gentile, not an Israelite. Furthermore, I am God's child under the New Covenant, not the Old.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Peace to you.

[Epiphoskei]

God expressly warns against making holy days from pagan days, and Dec 25th is the birthday of the sun god.
This is actually a bit of a myth. The birthday of Sol Invictus was probably based off of the preexisting date for Christmas.

Christians are told many silly things about where Christmas comes from.

[shrewdsnake]

If I choose to take the day of my son's death and use if for prayer and fasting so I never get bitter at God over it how is that a Holy Day? It isn't. And if a Christian want's to take Christmas Day to reflect on family, God, Christ and what His birth means there is nothing wrong with it.