The Lord's Supper

[SobriaInebrietas]

Hello again everybody! Hope everyone had a good weekend! Anyway, on to more questions now... ;)

Since the Reformed faith doesn't believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper, when I take it at my church (we take it once a month), does this mean that I am not recieving the same benefits as I would in church that does believe in the Real Presence? Also, if I do come to admit that I do believe in the Real Presense of Christ in the Lord's Supper, would it be wrong to continue to take communion from a church that only offers it as a memorial (Which I feel is strange since they do not allow anyone to take part in it who isn't a member of the church - I could not take it even when I was in the membership class and was not allowed until I had made my oath in front of the whole church with the pastor and elders)?

Thank you!

[DaRev]

Hello again everybody! Hope everyone had a good weekend! Anyway, on to more questions now... ;)

Since the Reformed faith doesn't believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper, when I take it at my church (we take it once a month), does this mean that I am not recieving the same benefits as I would in church that does believe in the Real Presence? Also, if I do come to admit that I do believe in the Real Presense of Christ in the Lord's Supper, would it be wrong to continue to take communion from a church that only offers it as a memorial (Which I feel is strange since they do not allow anyone to take part in it who isn't a member of the church - I could not take it even when I was in the membership class and was not allowed until I had made my oath in front of the whole church with the pastor and elders)?

Thank you!

The Lutheran Confessions state that since the Reformed (called "Sacramentarians" in the Formula of Concord) have basically changed the meanings of Christ's words to the point that they are no longer His words, they do not even have the Sacrament. So, to answer your question, no, you are not receiving anything except bread and wine or juice, depending on what they use.

If you do believe in the Real Presence as the Scriptures teach, then you should not receive communion at that church that does not have the Sacrament since you will no longer be in communion with them. The Lord's Supper is both the receiving of the very body and blood of Christ, and also a public statement of common confession. If you no longer hold to that church's confession, you are not in agreement with them. To continue to receive there would mean that you are verbally stating that you agree with Real Presence but by communing there you are also saying that you agree that there is no Real Presence. It would be contradictory.

[SobriaInebrietas]

The Lutheran Confessions state that since the Reformed (called "Sacramentarians" in the Formula of Concord) have basically changed the meanings of Christ's words to the point that they are no longer His words, they do not even have the Sacrament. So, to answer your question, no, you are not receiving anything except bread and wine or juice, depending on what they use.

If you do believe in the Real Presence as the Scriptures teach, then you should not receive communion at that church that does not have the Sacrament since you will no longer be in communion with them. The Lord's Supper is both the receiving of the very body and blood of Christ, and also a public statement of common confession. If you no longer hold to that church's confession, you are not in agreement with them. To continue to receive there would mean that you are verbally stating that you agree with Real Presence but by communing there you are also saying that you agree that there is no Real Presence. It would be contradictory.

Thank you for clearing that up.

I had been doing a lot of research over the weekend about the Real Presense, and although I do not want to seem to be to hasty to agree to things, learning about this has been a crucial experience. I feel decieved and a little resentful towards the church, that I have not really recieved anything more than bread and wine. Though I am nervous about speaking up about this, I am going to have to if I am to refuse communion (the first step towards my excommunication from the reformed church I suppose)... Ugh. I feel sick about it.

I don't understand how they can offer communion and actually say "the bread that we break is now communion with the body of Christ" if they do not truly believe that it is - if it is merely a symbol. How does that make any sense? The really stress the words "do this as often as ye do it in remembrance of me." Why do they seem to interpret Scripture in such a backwards way?

[RadMan]

I wouldn't make any waves. Just don't take communion there. You don't have to give a reason unless someone is curious. Then it would be a good way to witness. TO them it's just an observance anyway.

[SobriaInebrietas]

I wouldn't make any waves. Just don't take communion there. You don't have to give a reason unless someone is curious. Then it would be a good way to witness. TO them it's just an observance anyway.

I wish I didn't have to make waves, but if I don't take it, they WILL ask me why, and I can't refuse to answer them. Not only that, I know my husband wouldn't be so pleased. I mean, I talked to him a bit about what I have learned so far, but I don't know how he wil react to this - it is not just an observance to them, but also a way of declaring agreement with each other... if I don't do this, there will be big waves (it is a very small church) - when one is out of agreement they must correct and admonish them - and there is not a single person there who wouldn't see it that way.

:sigh:

I am feeling pretty helpless right now. I don't know how to put the words together to explain to anyone how I am feeling or what it is a believe lately. I have an intense fear of being condemned by others... and I know the attitude of my church. None of this is going to be pretty... maybe I am just being too pessimistic. I guess we will see what happens.

[RadMan]

God doesn't condemn you.

[SobriaInebrietas]

God doesn't condemn you.

Thank you for that... I know I need to put less weight on the opinions of others. I want to be right with God and yet sometimes I am more fearful of what others are going to think of me... That isn't right.

Maybe I am thinking too hard about this right now...

:doh:

[RadMan]

While you're reading all these references to other material also read the Word. It will strengthen your faith and your faith will strengthen you.

Kinda neat really :)

[filosofer]

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1 ESV

[KimLCMS]

I wish I didn't have to make waves, but if I don't take it, they WILL ask me why, and I can't refuse to answer them. Not only that, I know my husband wouldn't be so pleased. I mean, I talked to him a bit about what I have learned so far, but I don't know how he wil react to this - it is not just an observance to them, but also a way of declaring agreement with each other... if I don't do this, there will be big waves (it is a very small church) - when one is out of agreement they must correct and admonish them - and there is not a single person there who wouldn't see it that way.

:sigh:

I am feeling pretty helpless right now. I don't know how to put the words together to explain to anyone how I am feeling or what it is a believe lately. I have an intense fear of being condemned by others... and I know the attitude of my church. None of this is going to be pretty... maybe I am just being too pessimistic. I guess we will see what happens.
Maybe you could "go to the bathroom" right before communion. Just a thought :)

[NordicLutheran]

It really is better on the Lutheran side of things. Sounds like you'll be joining us soon? :wave:

[SobriaInebrietas]

While you're reading all these references to other material also read the Word. It will strengthen your faith and your faith will strengthen you.

Kinda neat really :)

I am realizing the importance of that... Without Christ everything else is pointless... If I am not in the word consistantly it is so easy for depression to spiral out of control... I find nothing but despair on my own; He is my only hope.


There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1 ESV



Romans 8 is my favorite chapter... It's sad that as much as that passage means to me I struggle with these concepts the most...

Maybe you could "go to the bathroom" right before communion. Just a thought :)

Hahaha! Yeah... maybe...

It really is better on the Lutheran side of things. Sounds like you'll be joining us soon? :wave:

I really do think so... but it isn't going to be easy. I expect things to get uglier before they get better - The more I study the Bible on my own and learn and agree with Lutheran beliefs and concepts, I am filled simultaneously with hope and joy and dread - Hope and joy in Christ and in my salvation, and in finding a denomination that so much more clearly defines what it is to be a Christian - and dread in that I am sooner or later going to have to give and answer to my current church about why it is that I want to leave them. I am really not looking forward to that.

[DaSeminarian]

I really do think so... but it isn't going to be easy. I expect things to get uglier before they get better - The more I study the Bible on my own and learn and agree with Lutheran beliefs and concepts, I am filled simultaneously with hope and joy and dread - Hope and joy in Christ and in my salvation, and in finding a denomination that so much more clearly defines what it is to be a Christian - and dread in that I am sooner or later going to have to give and answer to my current church about why it is that I want to leave them. I am really not looking forward to that.

Confess your faith boldly. It is to your benefit that they know exactly what you believe. I think the problem you might have is sharing this with your spouse if you haven't already done so. Don't leave him in the dark about your doubts concerning your current church. It is important that you discuss with him what you are understanding and believing.

[SobriaInebrietas]

Confess your faith boldly. It is to your benefit that they know exactly what you believe. I think the problem you might have is sharing this with your spouse if you haven't already done so. Don't leave him in the dark about your doubts concerning your current church. It is important that you discuss with him what you are understanding and believing.

You are right... Thank you for that advice. I know that if I felt like I had his support I wouldn't be nearly as concerned about what everyone else thinks. I really want to make him understand what it is that is going on with me. So far all I can figure of what he thinks about all of this is that I have been unfaithful to the church I am going to (his words not mine) - that I should have gone to them with these doubts a long time ago and if I had I wouldn't be having these problems. I don't know how seriously he is taking all of this...

I need to pray about this. I would be grateful for your prayers... I am trying to muster up the courage to continue talking to him about this as last time it ended pretty badly... I pray God will give me the right words... and that my husband will understand... and see the truth in what I say.

[DaRev]

It really is better on the Lutheran side of things. Sounds like you'll be joining us soon? :wave:

I don't mean to derail the thread, but I am curious...
Why do you have a monstrance next to your CF character?

[synger]

To understand the differences between Reformed and Lutheran ideas of the Lord's Supper, I'd suggest looking at these documents, and then talking with your minister and husband about what you've learned.

Reformed:
Heidelberg Catechism: On the Sacraments (http://www.crcna.org/pages/heidelberg_sacraments.cfm), On the Lord's Supper (http://www.crcna.org/pages/heidelberg_communion.cfm)

Lutheran:
Luther's Larger Catechism: The Sacrament of the Altar (http://www.bookofconcord.org/largecatechism/7_sacrament.html)

I have, over the past six years, moved from staunchly Calvinistic, and an ordained Presbyterian elder, to joyfully confessing Lutheran doctrine as a member of the LCMS. Sacramental doctrine was a huge part of that journey for me. PM me if you wish.

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Sobrina,
I have to go with the Augsburg Confession, and the Formula of Concord.

"Word and Sacrament are efficatious even when administered by evil men"

If the Words of our Lord are use as part of the Communion Service, then Christ's body and blood are recieved by all who partake.

Those who believe in the real presence recieve the forgivness of sins, those who do not believe bring judgement upon themselves.

By participating in the sacrament in a Church that denies the real presence, you are basically endorsing their eror, therefore you should abstain.

Mark.

[DaRev]

Sobrina,
I have to go with the Augsburg Confession, and the Formula of Concord.

"Word and Sacrament are efficatious even when administered by evil men"

If the Words of our Lord are use as part of the Communion Service, then Christ's body and blood are recieved by all who partake.

Those who believe in the real presence recieve the forgivness of sins, those who do not believe bring judgement upon themselves.

By participating in the sacrament in a Church that denies the real presence, you are basically endorsing their eror, therefore you should abstain.

Mark.

Remember, though, that the FoC qualifies it by saying that when the meanings of Christ's words are changed, they are no longer Christ's words. Thus the Sacrament administered by those churches that have changed the meanings is not truly the Sacrament and thus Christ's body and blood are not present there.

From the FoC SD XXXII: "For it does not depend upon the faith or unbelief of men, but upon God's Word and ordinance, unless they first change God's Word and ordinance and interpret it otherwise, as the enemies of the Sacrament do at the present day, who, of course, have nothing but bread and wine; for they also do not have the words and appointed ordinance of God, but have perverted and changed them according to their own [false] notion."

[synger]

While I agree with you, DaRev, I also believe the Augsburg has a place. If she's like me, she will not go to nor join another church without her husband. He is the spiritual head of the household. I would not join the LCMS until Hunter was convinced, even though I was ready much sooner than he was.

I was really worried about some of the same things for a time, but from my study of Scriptures and the Augsburg (and some research into the donatism heresy, which also touched on the matter of sacramental... effectiveness, if you will, in the early Church),
I came to believe that God would bring us to the Lutheran church in His time. I felt it was more important for me to support my husband's searching without pressuring him to make a decision Right Now than to defy him because I was afraid I'd "lose out" on the Sacrament rightly administered.

Granted, every situation is different. I would hope we could continue to answer her questions authoritatively from Scripture and the BoC without unduly pressuring her to make changes that may need a bit more time to come to fruition.

[DaRev]

While I agree with you, DaRev, I also believe the Augsburg has a place. If she's like me, she will not go to nor join another church without her husband. He is the spiritual head of the household. I would not join the LCMS until Hunter was convinced, even though I was ready much sooner than he was.

I was really worried about some of the same things for a time, but from my study of Scriptures and the Augsburg (and some research into the donatism heresy, which also touched on the matter of sacramental... effectiveness, if you will, in the early Church),
I came to believe that God would bring us to the Lutheran church in His time. I felt it was more important for me to support my husband's searching without pressuring him to make a decision Right Now than to defy him because I was afraid I'd "lose out" on the Sacrament rightly administered.

Granted, every situation is different. I would hope we could continue to answer her questions authoritatively from Scripture and the BoC without unduly pressuring her to make changes that may need a bit more time to come to fruition.

My post was to simply clarify what the previous post had said.

I agree with what you are saying totally.

[NoMoreHopelessness]

Ok, I have a question for those of you who used to visit other churches and used to take part in the Lord's supper there:

Now, that you have become part of a confessional Lutheran church, was it different? What impact does the communion in the Lutheran church have on you?

I can see - and have experienced myself - the comfort and strengthening of faith that comes from the words "This is my blood and this is my body" being proclaimed. And I do abhor the irreverence with which the supper is treated in many evangelical churches. In fact I think it is fair to say that for many Evangelicals the Lord's supper is irrelevant.

Now that is terrible but frankly I feel that your position is the other extreme:

Those who believe in the real presence recieve the forgivness of sins, those who do not believe bring judgement upon themselves.


I find this statement VERY hard to accept. But I am willing to learn and change my mind. How do christians who do not believe in RP - OR according to what you say, who simply commune together with those who don't - bring judgement upon themselves and how does it manifest in their lifes?

[RadMan]

1 Corinthians 11:29-31 (New International Version)



29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment.

[filosofer]

While I agree with you, DaRev, I also believe the Augsburg has a place. If she's like me, she will not go to nor join another church without her husband. He is the spiritual head of the household. I would not join the LCMS until Hunter was convinced, even though I was ready much sooner than he was.

I was really worried about some of the same things for a time, but from my study of Scriptures and the Augsburg (and some research into the donatism heresy, which also touched on the matter of sacramental... effectiveness, if you will, in the early Church),
I came to believe that God would bring us to the Lutheran church in His time. I felt it was more important for me to support my husband's searching without pressuring him to make a decision Right Now than to defy him because I was afraid I'd "lose out" on the Sacrament rightly administered.

Granted, every situation is different. I would hope we could continue to answer her questions authoritatively from Scripture and the BoC without unduly pressuring her to make changes that may need a bit more time to come to fruition.

Some wise words. Thanks for sharing them. :)

[SobriaInebrietas]

To understand the differences between Reformed and Lutheran ideas of the Lord's Supper, I'd suggest looking at these documents, and then talking with your minister and husband about what you've learned.

Reformed:
Heidelberg Catechism: On the Sacraments (http://www.crcna.org/pages/heidelberg_sacraments.cfm), On the Lord's Supper (http://www.crcna.org/pages/heidelberg_communion.cfm)

Lutheran:
Luther's Larger Catechism: The Sacrament of the Altar (http://www.bookofconcord.org/largecatechism/7_sacrament.html)

I have, over the past six years, moved from staunchly Calvinistic, and an ordained Presbyterian elder, to joyfully confessing Lutheran doctrine as a member of the LCMS. Sacramental doctrine was a huge part of that journey for me. PM me if you wish.

While I agree with you, DaRev, I also believe the Augsburg has a place. If she's like me, she will not go to nor join another church without her husband. He is the spiritual head of the household. I would not join the LCMS until Hunter was convinced, even though I was ready much sooner than he was.

I was really worried about some of the same things for a time, but from my study of Scriptures and the Augsburg (and some research into the donatism heresy, which also touched on the matter of sacramental... effectiveness, if you will, in the early Church),
I came to believe that God would bring us to the Lutheran church in His time. I felt it was more important for me to support my husband's searching without pressuring him to make a decision Right Now than to defy him because I was afraid I'd "lose out" on the Sacrament rightly administered.

Granted, every situation is different. I would hope we could continue to answer her questions authoritatively from Scripture and the BoC without unduly pressuring her to make changes that may need a bit more time to come to fruition.

Thank you Synger, for your advice and sharing that with me. It is encouraging to see someone that has also been through this kind of thing... and I believe that you are right that I do need to remain with my husband and wait on the Lord. If He is to bring me to a Lutheran church it will be in His time, not mine. It would not be right to go to another church without the spiritual head of my family (Well, it is just the two of us, but you all know what I mean).

And after talking with my husband again last night, I believe it would be wise to remain with him and follow his counsel on the matter. Although he is understanding and supportive of my doubts regarding Calvinism and the Reformed church - and my attraction to the Lutheran faith - he stands firm that I should remain faithful to the church to which I have made vows, and continue my research and searching for answers there before anything else.

I'm not sure how all of this will turn out in the end, but it is in the Lord's hands, and I will be patient and trust in Him.

1 Corinthians 11:29-31 (New International Version)

29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment.

Thank you for sharing that verse. I will be talking with my pastor about all of this soon. I will present my arguement, and if I do not recieve a satisfactory scriptural explaination, I will abstain from taking the Lord's Supper there. They can't kick me out of the church for that.

Although I am not able, and maybe not quite ready, to leave this church yet, I will stay for now and see where all of this leads me. I am sure I can still receive a great benefit in the reading and preaching of the Word, even if I don't agree with them on a number of points?

I don't know, but for now I have to make the best of what I have...


Some wise words. Thanks for sharing them. :)


Yes, indeed wise words... Thanks to all who have contributed so far! I appreciate all of the advice!

:)

[NoMoreHopelessness]

1 Corinthians 11:29-31 (New International Version)



29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment.

Context!!!

20When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, 21for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing?
.....
33So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for each other. 34If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment.

Paul is not speaking of doctrinal differences here, is he? To say that those who do not believe in Real Presence bring judgement upon themselves, seems to me to be a distortion of the meaning of these verses.

I also had a quick look in Luther's two catechisms. I could not find any statement like that there.

[DaRev]

Context!!!

20When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, 21for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing?
.....
33So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for each other. 34If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment.

Paul is not speaking of doctrinal differences here, is he? To say that those who do not believe in Real Presence bring judgement upon themselves, seems to me to be a distortion of the meaning of these verses.

Not at all. What Paul is addressing is the way the Corinthians had perverted the sacrament of the Lord's Supper to the point that it was no longer the "Lord's Supper" that they were having. The Corinthian Church had turned the Sacrament into a party. He goes on to explain what the Lord's Supper is, including the words of institution to emphasize that they are indeed receiveing the very body and blood of Christ, and that those who eat and drink without examining themsleves and without discerning, recognizing the body of Christ, are committing a sin and are bringing judgement upon themselves. The context does indeed support the teaching that those who receive the Sacrament and do not hold to the Real Presence are bringing judgement upon themselves.