more than one wife??

[visionary]

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; In a conversation at the synagogue this shabbat, I was informed that this verse should have been "the husband of at least one wife,"

This man was with all sincerity sure that scriptures and the Lord are not opposed to a man having more than one wife.

What say ye?

[Annalien]

in regards to that verse, in my hebrew bible it says the following...

" A teaching overseeing shamesh then must be blameless, the husband of one wife..."

and then on the study note it says " A leader in Yisrael today's times cannot be a polygamist...

I'll do more research on the hebrew of it all and see what i find...

PERSONALLY,
This issue is soo touchy with me, because first of all its biblical having more than one wife, why G-d did it like that? Annie will never know, and I dont have to either...Personally, it ain't for me and secondly, i want to thank you for this verse...it might just prove that in today's time it isn't "OK" to have more than one wife.... I'll study more about it..

thanks!!

[ContraMundum]

Funny thing- an Arab guy once told me that having only one wife is "selfish", and I informed him that having more than one is "selfish". LOL

As for the Greek here: "mias gunaikos"- I always chuckle when I read Robertson's comments on this- "One at a time, clearly." To most Greek scholars and commentators, this is an easy open and shut case. (However some concede that the ruling could be regarded as binding only initially on the episcopacy in the 1stC. I don't hold that view but I understand how they got it.)

What's interesting about the context of this is that having more than one wife could actually be considered to be a sin, because the word "blameless" comes as the leading definition to the subsequent circumstances and characters named (monogomous, vigilant, sober etc- in other words these traits define the term "blameless" regarding the episcopate.) I don't think there could be a case built to teach any polygamy here for the episcopate. Certainly there is no "at least one wife" type parsing in the Greek, and we should never forget that commas were inserted later in Greek manuscripts.

[Ivy]

Yes, and common sense would indicate........well, even a minimal two wives, with their children, and all the rivalries going....I daresay the poor man would barely be able to manage all that + a congregation as well! Yikes! :eek: Like no rest for the weary! :help:

:D

[Tea]

Whether it means one wife or a wife, I think there is grounds to the throught that God is not against multiple wives. It does appears that for certain leadership roles, there maybe grounds for one wife, although Joseph did have multiple.
I think that the bible is also very clear, that with numerous wives, that this brings it's own troubles.
Just my thoughts

Tracey

[brachah]

In a conversation at the synagogue this shabbat, I was informed that this verse should have been "the husband of at least one wife,"

This man was with all sincerity sure that scriptures and the Lord are not opposed to a man having more than one wife.

What say ye?
this verse means he cannot re-marry.
if a rich guy marries 2 wives, it wl be dangerous a poor man wl have no wife at all n this poor guy may have to be a gay. :D

[HephzibahBenJudah]

IT is one meaning Only One.

[Colabomb]

in regards to that verse, in my hebrew bible it says the following...



Considering the Scripture in question was written in greek, i don't see the relevance.

When you are unsure of one Translation (The english) why go to another translation (The hebrew) instead of to he original (the greek).

[A_Pioneer]

Considering the Scripture in question was written in greek, i don't see the relevance.

When you are unsure of one Translation (The english) why go to another translation (The hebrew) instead of to he original (the greek).
Because Sha'ul thought in Hebrew and translated to Greek! The folks at Hebrew University have been able to back translate to Hebrew everything that was written by a Heberw, when it was added by a Greek it refuses to back translate. In my little brain that computes to good bible writing and the later, meddling! ----lol-----

So to get the depth of Sha'uls meaning you need to think like he did. In Hebrew!

Shalom

[Colabomb]

Because Sha'ul thought in Hebrew and translated to Greek! The folks at Hebrew University have been able to back translate to Hebrew everything that was written by a Heberw, when it was added by a Greek it refuses to back translate. In my little brain that computes to good bible writing and the later, meddling! ----lol-----

So to get the depth of Sha'uls meaning you need to think like he did. In Hebrew!

Shalom

However, if I (as a native English Speaker), wrote a book in Spanish (assume i know spanish haha), would it be right to rely more on osmeone elses english translation of my book because i am a native english speaker?

No, if i were to write in spanish, i would intentionally choose words from the spanish vocabulary, to get my point across. The person who translates my work into english, is essentially whether he intends to or not, interpreting my work.

The same with Paul. He wrote in Greek, and chose Greek words intentionally to get his point across. The Hebrew Translation, was not penned by paul, but by a later translator, who by no fault of his own was forced to interpret.

[Lulav]

Really , lets define wife here first.

[ozell]

Go back to the beginning

Gen2v18

18: And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
21: And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

1 rib taken from adam made he woman(singular)

22: And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

bone(singular)

23: And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24: Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25: And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

The woman or wife is the missing rib that don't have.
The Lord said the woman came from man

He did not grab another clump of dirt and create the woman seperate. She came from man

Deut 17v14-17
14: When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;
15: Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.
16: But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.
17: Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.
18: And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that

The Lord had written that the king is not to multiply wives unto himself.

The Lord was our first king until we rejected him

1Samuel 8v5-7
5: And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
6: But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
7: And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

How many wives(brides) do the Lord have?

1 is all

Rv 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Rv 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

[visionary]

Exactly... Ozell you said it well.

[Lulav]

Yes, he made one wife, or one helper, not more than one, Then how come it is that men always want more? Why aren't they happy with one, why can't they be satisfied with one loving helping wife?

Is G-d the only one?

[ozell]

Really , lets define wife here first.

The woman of God, The woman that men of God dream of!!!

Prov 12:4 A virtuous woman is a crown to her husband: but she that maketh ashamed is as rottenness in his bones.


Prov 31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
11: The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
12: She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
13: She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
14: She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
15: She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
16: She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
17: She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
18: She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
19: She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
20: She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
21: She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
22: She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
23: Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
24: She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
25: Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
26: She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
27: She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
28: Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.
29: Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
30: Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.
31: Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

:amen:

[ozell]

Yes, he made one wife, or one helper, not more than one, Then how come it is that men always want more? Why aren't they happy with one, why can't they be satisfied with one loving helping wife?

Is G-d the only one?

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin;

Then how come it is that men always want more? Why aren't they happy with one, why can't they be satisfied with one loving helping wife?

Jms 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

we men must put on the whole armour of God

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

we men must resist the lust of the flesh

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

[ContraMundum]

we men must resist the lust of the flesh.

Amen. As it says well in "The Imitation of Christ"- we must master our passions, not let them master us.

[A_Pioneer]

However, if I (as a native English Speaker), wrote a book in Spanish (assume i know spanish haha), would it be right to rely more on osmeone elses english translation of my book because i am a native english speaker?

No, if i were to write in spanish, i would intentionally choose words from the spanish vocabulary, to get my point across. The person who translates my work into english, is essentially whether he intends to or not, interpreting my work.

The same with Paul. He wrote in Greek, and chose Greek words intentionally to get his point across. The Hebrew Translation, was not penned by paul, but by a later translator, who by no fault of his own was forced to interpret.
I suppose whatever words you chose in Spanish, "Kick the bucket" would not be understood by the Spanish reader!
Your intellect is making a statement you think is correct, but it is just a guess, you weren't there!

By your statement you put into question all the learned men who made the back tanslation. Shame on you, a lite weight among the giants.
Mama needs to dry you behind the ears.

Shalom

[Colabomb]

I suppose whatever words you chose in Spanish, "Kick the bucket" would not be understood by the Spanish reader!
Your intellect is making a statement you think is correct, but it is just a guess, you weren't there!

By your statement you put into question all the learned men who made the back tanslation. Shame on you, a lite weight among the giants.
Mama needs to dry you behind the ears.

Shalom

Heh, if Im a fluent spanish writer, I wouldn't make stupid mistakes like using Colloquialisms of another language.

Paul, was a very Educated man, who wrote in Fluent Greek. He was writing in the Lingua Franca of his time.

He also was fluent in Hebrew. However, it is irrelevant to the discussion of the Greek originals, as they are just that, Greek Originals.

I ask again, a very logical question, why go to a translation (the Hebrew) instead of the original (The Greek).

By the way, Insulting me, and then throwing in a "Shalom" is a bit disgusting. If I were a Jew, I would not want my Language sullied in such a fashion.

[visionary]

Gentlemen... enough... back on to OP please

[Colabomb]

Vis, the question of Translation, and Vocabulary, is absolutely pertinent to the discussion.

We have to decide what language is trustworthy, before we can eve begin, to discuss what the verse means.

[visionary]

Keep personal attacks out of the posting

[Athaliamum]

To add to the discussion about God only making one helper, it also says "This is whay a man is to leave his father and mother and stick with his wife, and they are to be one flesh."

I always understood this (and perhaps this is the carnal nature in me) that was in relation to sex. The blood covanent that is made during intercourse when the woman looses her viriginity. How does that work with multiple wives? Can a man make that many convanents and be able to keep them? What if keeping one means breaking another?

[Colabomb]

To add to the discussion about God only making one helper, it also says "This is whay a man is to leave his father and mother and stick with his wife, and they are to be one flesh."

I always understood this (and perhaps this is the carnal nature in me) that was in relation to sex. The blood covanent that is made during intercourse when the woman looses her viriginity. How does that work with multiple wives? Can a man make that many convanents and be able to keep them? What if keeping one means breaking another?

Just because Blood is let does not make something a covenant. Is murder a covenant because one lets blood in doing so? Some women lose their hymen playing soccer, and do not bleed on their wedding night.

The Covenant is made when you promise before God and your partner to be a faithful spouse.

[Athaliamum]

Do you even understand what a covenant is?

If you did there would be no way you would be somehow connecting it with murder etc..

A contract can be spoken but a convenant requires blood. To say that blood is not required deminishes the death of Yeshua. Why did he need to bleed unless it was required of the convenant?

Because that is what a covenant is. The word “covenant’ means “cutting”.

This is described in Genesis 15:17-21.
God had told Abraham to prepare for a covenant agreement with Him. He was told to slaughter several animals. Following the common ritual of this time Abraham did this. He slaughtered the animals cut them that two halves of the animal would lie on the ground opposite each other. The two parties would then walk around those two halves in a figure of eight path through the blood. In that ritual they would pledge themselves to each other to the extent of all they had, - even to their very lives. In that covenant they would name all the blessings and benefits of the covenant. Then they would name the curses to be exacted should that covenant be violated. There in the bloody ground they would pledge themselves to each other and promise to uphold the covenant requirements come what may. It was a covenant unto death. They affirmed in effect that,
“If either one of us violates this covenant then may that person be as this animal that was sacrificed and in whose blood we are now standing.”

This is how the covenant was “cut”.

But blessed be God who is merciful, as we broke the covenant and sinned we therefore should be "as those animals", instead Yeshua took our place and gave of his blood.

The mark of God's first covenant is circumcision. It also requires blood. And when the man, who would have been understood to be part of this covenant, has sex with his wife her blood will spill on to his circumcised penis, including her in this blood covenant and is her form of covenant "marker". It is also the mingling of blood that makes them "of one flesh" as …the life of all flesh is its blood. (Leviticus 17:11)

Hymen deminished or not - a women will still bleed on her first time, it might not be heaps and overly visible (unless you want to inspect him with a magnifying glass) but she would still bleed.

Colabomb, your reply to my post is overly simplistic in relation to issues that have their root in deeper symbology and understanding.

The question is not whether a blood covenant would be established between them, but how would it effect the status of having multiple partners, not just limited those with the title of wife but also concubines etc.

[Annalien]

Considering the Scripture in question was written in greek, i don't see the relevance.

When you are unsure of one Translation (The english) why go to another translation (The hebrew) instead of to he original (the greek).

mmm well, considering the apostles spoke and wrote hebrew I have trouble believing the "New Covenant" was written in Greek.. but then again, no proof of that as of yet

just my thoughts though

[Annalien]

Because Sha'ul thought in Hebrew and translated to Greek! The folks at Hebrew University have been able to back translate to Hebrew everything that was written by a Heberw, when it was added by a Greek it refuses to back translate. In my little brain that computes to good bible writing and the later, meddling! ----lol-----

So to get the depth of Sha'uls meaning you need to think like he did. In Hebrew!

Shalom

Amen to this! If I would have read it I wouldn't have responded.. you said it perfectly :)