God permits.....

[orthros]

PEACE.....DO YOU AGREE THAT GOD PERMITS TRIALS, MISFORTUNES, ILLNESSES, POVERTY, HUNGER ETC. TO TEST HUMAN BEINGS? FOR EXAMPLE, WHO WILL HELP? WHO WILL CHANGE? WHO WILL CARE AND LOVE? OF COURSE IT IS THE HUMAN BEINGS THAT BRING THESE DISASTERS UPON THEMSELVES BY BEING DISOBEDIENT OR ABUSING SOMETHING OR SOMEONE, HOWEVER GOD WILL USE THAT TO BRING US TO A BETTER AND MORE TRUTHFUL CONSCIENCE - IF WE CO-OPERATE WITH HIS GRACE. EVEN IF SOMEONE WAS TO UNJUSTLY MURDER US OR SOMEONE WE LOVE - A CHILD, THERE IS A LESSON IN THIS ATROCITY SOMEWHERE FOR SOMEONE - FOR EXAMPLE, FORGIVENESS. SOMETIMES THE TESTS ARE VERY HEAVY, BUT GOD WILL NOT GIVE US MORE THAN WE CAN ENDURE THROUGH PRAYER AND THE SACRAMENTS. I WILL AWAIT YOUR REPLIES.....BLESSINGS, "ORTHROS":crosseo:

[tapero]

PEACE.....DO YOU AGREE THAT GOD PERMITS TRIALS, MISFORTUNES, ILLNESSES, POVERTY, HUNGER ETC. TO TEST HUMAN BEINGS? FOR EXAMPLE, WHO WILL HELP? WHO WILL CHANGE? WHO WILL CARE AND LOVE? OF COURSE IT IS THE HUMAN BEINGS THAT BRING THESE DISASTERS UPON THEMSELVES BY BEING DISOBEDIENT OR ABUSING SOMETHING OR SOMEONE, HOWEVER GOD WILL USE THAT TO BRING US TO A BETTER AND MORE TRUTHFUL CONSCIENCE - IF WE CO-OPERATE WITH HIS GRACE. EVEN IF SOMEONE WAS TO UNJUSTLY MURDER US OR SOMEONE WE LOVE - A CHILD, THERE IS A LESSON IN THIS ATROCITY SOMEWHERE FOR SOMEONE - FOR EXAMPLE, FORGIVENESS. SOMETIMES THE TESTS ARE VERY HEAVY, BUT GOD WILL NOT GIVE US MORE THAN WE CAN ENDURE THROUGH PRAYER AND THE SACRAMENTS. I WILL AWAIT YOUR REPLIES.....BLESSINGS, "ORTHROS":crosseo:

Hi, as far as I see, God tests us and corrects us in the nt.

In no way does he send illness, weather disasters, poverty etc and all the rest of what you had listed.

His correction and tests are those if you can imagine the most loving father in the world, God is many more times, many more times loving than a human father who corrects his child, hence it's not a zapping correction in the least as some imagine, and as to tests, no it's not a test such as I'll give this one cancer to see if he still loves me.

In the nt, we see no judgement at all, and we see 2 things, one as regards illness. Paul's thorn, which I don't believe God gave to Paul, but God would not remove it, and we see 2 died for lying to the Holy Spirit.

We see nothing other than that (to my recollection at the moment) in the nt, until the end times judgement which will occur when that time comes, and we won't be going thru that imo (those of us believers alive now I mean.) And non believers as well won't go thru the end times portion either if they die before they start.

What God does do, is work all things to the good for those who believe.

So when we go thru various things, even though we may not see how God can work such to our good, or may not see that or how he has till much later in retrospect or perhaps not till heaven will we see such, but God works all things to our good.

Non believers die in wealth, poverty, health, sickness no different than Christians.

God bless,
tapero

[salida]

I agree. God allows trials to test us.

[prgallo]

God clearly allows some trials to test us, but not every bad thing that happens is a trial meant to teach us something. God however can take something meant to harm us and turn it to the good.

Some of the bad things that happena are the direct result of living in a fallen world and some peoples free will being inflicted on others.

[Keiko]

If you don't want anything bad to happen in the world...I'm afraid that you would have to give up any personal freedom that you have to God.

A lot of these problems come because human beings, animals and nature are allowed the freedom to make their own choices. Sometimes these choices harm others. But the freedom to belief or disbelieve was given to us by God. Yeah, it came with a price. But basically, that's free will for you. Not everyone uses it selflessly (Almost no one does).

The other thing is, destruction is necessary for the life cycle to continue. Sorry, but if nothing was destroyed or killed, there would be no room for new life, or even all the old life still hanging around. This is just the balance of the universe. Destruction is just change--sometimes it's cruel and painful, but it is necessary. If you are a theist, these changes are easier to cope with because you know that they are just temporary.

[hlaltimus]

"If there is calamity in a city, will not the Lord have done it?" Amos 3:6b

God does allow many trials, difficulties and even disasters in our lives at times and for His reasons, but there is never a single tribulation which will ever equal all of what He hasn't allowed in our lives which He easily could have.

"He has not dealt with us according to our sins, Nor punished us according to our iniquites." Psalm 103:10

[Angel4Truth]

closed for review

Update: Thread has been moved from Questions by Non Christians to TAW and is now reopened.

[Emmy]

Dear orthros. We live in an imperfect world, perhaps even a fallen world, and many things go wrong, or sometimes even very wrong. When these things hit us, they are not send by God. All we can do then is Pray, and ask God to Help us carry them. God loves us, He has given us His Commandments, and if we live by them, God will be with us all the way. God will NOT interfere in our decisions, and His Law is fair. Whatever we do will have consequences, we will either get rewarded, or pay for the wrongs. We ourselves will have to learn by mistakes, and God will be there to help if we ask. We made the world into an imperfect world, God will not permit evil things for those who love and trust Him, but it not God who sends this evils as trials. I say this humbly and kindly, orthros. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

[Heorhij]

Dear orthros. We live in an imperfect world, perhaps even a fallen world, and many things go wrong, or sometimes even very wrong. When these things hit us, they are not send by God. All we can do then is Pray, and ask God to Help us carry them. God loves us, He has given us His Commandments, and if we live by them, God will be with us all the way. God will NOT interfere in our decisions, and His Law is fair. Whatever we do will have consequences, we will either get rewarded, or pay for the wrongs. We ourselves will have to learn by mistakes, and God will be there to help if we ask. We made the world into an imperfect world, God will not permit evil things for those who love and trust Him, but it not God who sends this evils as trials. I say this humbly and kindly, orthros. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.
Emmy, is this a typo ("God will NOT permit evil things for those who love Him")? AFAIK, God permits "evil" (or what WE perceive as evil) to happen to people who truly love Him. That's the main message of the book of Job, is it not? Horrible things, or, rather, what we perceive as horrible things, happen to anyone, including true servants of the Lord. We do not understand why, simply because we see so little "on this side of Paradise." In Christ, --George

[Emmy]

Dear George. You are right, sometimes evil things happen to Christians too, but that is because we live in an imperfect world, and things go wrong all the time. I say this humbly and with love, George, but in the Book of Job, Satan wanted to prove to God that Job could be lured away from God, that Job was only loving God, because he was treated so well by God. God allowed Satan to do his worst to Job, but only so far, God was still in Command. And at the end of Job`s trials by Satan, which were allowed by God to show Satan that he could not take Job`s love away from God. God knows His Own, and if we are caught up in some calamity, God will be there to help us carry them every time, and make them steppingstones. Sincere greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

[repentant]

God doesn't send them, but He allows them...

[Heorhij]

I think it's all our anthropomorphic (=human-centered) language, - "sends," "permits..." "Evil" things happen. God is in control. We, the beleivers, need to acknowledge it, and that's about as far as we can go. Constructions of the kind, "God will allow... God will not allow..." - are products of our human mind that tries to "sculpture" God according to what we see, hear, conceive, ponder, etc., in this, "physico-chemical" world. Products of us trying to make God "in our (human) image and liking." The book of Job pretty much refutes it all... even with its pinkish-rosy-Hollywood style happy end...

[PattyOfurniture]

I'm very new to things Orthodox so please work with me here....loool
if I'm not mistaken Orthodoxy places the Father above all(if so I love this)that being said.....doesn't the father do a bit more than allow most (what we consider)"misfortunes"?
Like I said I'm new and am liking much of what I'm reading into the original Church.

[PattyOfurniture]

btw,that was a question:blush:

[Dorothea]

I'm very new to things Orthodox so please work with me here....loool
if I'm not mistaken Orthodoxy places the Father above all(if so I love this)that being said.....doesn't the father do a bit more than allow most (what we consider)"misfortunes"?
Like I said I'm new and am liking much of what I'm reading into the original Church.
Well, I'll try and answer your question in regards to God permitting misfortunes and whatnot to happen. It goes with having our free will. In order for us to have free will, God must allow us to make whatever choices we do in our lives, and some of those choices and paths we may take temporarily or long term could cause some misfortunes in our lives. Also, I think much pain and anguish that happens in this world is because it is a world filled with humans, not of His world. JMO. I'm sure somebody can correct me if I'm off. :sorry:

[OnTheWay]

The rain falls and the sun shines on the just and unjust alike. IMHO, a lot of this comes from people (and to be fair of various religious backgrounds) that believe God is up there in the sky micro-managing their lives. As such everything that happens, bad or good, in the result of some master plan. I don't believe that, maybe it makes be cynical, but I just don't think in the grand scheme of things God cares if you want to be an accountant or dentist.

[Orthosdoxa]

I just don't think in the grand scheme of things God cares if you want to be an accountant or dentist.

I'm with you. I saw a post on my other board tonight from some chick who is really struggling with discerning whether or not God is telling her to remodel her bathroom. I'm totally serious. :sigh:

[Latreia]

God clearly allows some trials to test us, but not every bad thing that happens is a trial meant to teach us something. God however can take something meant to harm us and turn it to the good.

Some of the bad things that happena are the direct result of living in a fallen world and some peoples free will being inflicted on others.

"If there is calamity in a city, will not the Lord have done it?" Amos 3:6b

God does allow many trials, difficulties and even disasters in our lives at times and for His reasons, but there is never a single tribulation which will ever equal all of what He hasn't allowed in our lives which He easily could have.

"He has not dealt with us according to our sins, Nor punished us according to our iniquites." Psalm 103:10

Could it be possible, even as Christians, to think that rather than "God is testing us" it is that God is questing us.

As man has learned so much about how the mechanics of life work, the "laws" of nature and the universe, immense beyond belief, and still, so precise, so elegant that we know God created them.

You may as well say that existence is a test of life. You may as well say that mankind has been tasked by the quest to know and to comprehend God.

It is beyond worrying why catastrophe and calamity is rife upon this earth, when we see that all is based on the laws of science and nature. All living creatures are bound by the states of birth and death.

That man has been, and remains so, in constant search for meaning and spirit in this world speaks volumes about an assignment from the Creator.

Does this almost place another light upon the Son of God, sent to us with such a magnificent, yet still personal message, that endures all worldly calumnies?

Can it be that we are as souls readying ourselves to become as one again with
the Fountainhead?

Was Jesus Christ the most revealing of all Teachers to mankind from our Lord God?

This is all new to me. It only popped into my head as I read this very thread; yet it is in such harmony with all else that my mind has managed to comprehend.

If mankind must find real spiritual community in all that is sacred and also complete reality, perhaps it dwells in the quest given to us.

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