God created Evil??

[orthros]

PEACE.....I AM ASKING THIS QUESTION BASED ON AN OLDER MESSAGE I JUST READ.....DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD CREATED EVIL (AS ACCORDING TO THE BOOK OF ISAIAH) IN ORDER TO "TEST US AS GOLD IN FIRE" WHICH IS ALSO IN SCRIPTURE?
BLESSINGS, "orthros":crosseo:

[Merlin]

Can you share the reference in Isa. that you question?

[HypnoToad]

PEACE.....I AM ASKING THIS QUESTION BASED ON AN OLDER MESSAGE I JUST READ.....DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD CREATED EVIL (AS ACCORDING TO THE BOOK OF ISAIAH) IN ORDER TO "TEST US AS GOLD IN FIRE" WHICH IS ALSO IN SCRIPTURE?
BLESSINGS, "orthros":crosseo:
Are you aware you're in "Questions by Non-Christians"? Being EO, you should probably be asking somewhere like General Theology, not here.

[kulenok]

I really do not believe that God created evil. If you think about it, evil is the lack of good.Cold is the lack of heat, darkness is the lack of light, and the same way is evil. Thus God did not create it; it is created every time one of us makes the wrong choice. It was created when Lucifer decided he wanted to be above God, thus he created evil in himself. It is created when we choose to lie, cheat, steal, lust, kill, or do any sins. Thats what evil really is, when we make the wrong choice.

[Angel4Truth]

Closed for review

Update : Thread moved from Questions by Non Christians to TAW and is now reopened.

[Philothei]

God does not creat evil but "allows" it. Yes it tests us to see how much faith we have like in Job in the OT. God does not know any evil and does not cause any evil. God in the OT allowed evil to be manifested...
God out of his own will did chose his people (the Jews). He did test them and He did deliver them .... but we always have to see the OT in the light of the NT. There are no "different" God in OT and NT just that he is revealed differently. God was preparing the way for
Christ's coming. The NT is the fullfillment of the OT.

About God in the Genesis it says " and everything that God made was good" thus God is capable of creating Good not Evil. He 'knows' no evil and He creates only good. The whole nature is good as we human were created in His own image and likeness....

If you need for information see these sites.

( and please do write in small letters... it confuses me when you write in capital... if you can)

the Nature of Evil


By Father James Thornton


WE READ IN VARIOUS PLACES in the Holy Scriptures about encounters between Christ and Satan, or about people possessed by demons, or regarding what one might call the very essence of evil. Such passages illustrate for us vividly that life in this fallen world, obviously, is ever a contest between Good and Evil. That contest is the point of our attendance here at church, of membership in the church, and of our participation in the Holy Mysteries of the Church, such as Baptism, Chrismation, Confession, Holy Communion, and so forth. They signify our commitment to God, and they strengthen us by Divine Grace in our efforts to prevail over evil.
As Christians, it behooves us to understand more thoroughly this phenomenon called evil, so that we may better stand up to it. So, let us discuss briefly the nature of evil, drawing our information here primarily from an essay published fifty years ago under the title "The Darkness of Night" and written by one of the great Orthodox theologians of this century, Father Georges Florovsky. What follows is a mixture of quotations, and paraphrases, of Father Georges' commentary, the complete text of which appears in Creation and Redemption, published by Nordland Publishing Company in 1976 (pp. 81-91).
How is it possible that evil exists in a world created by God? For evil is precisely that which opposes itself to and resists God, perverting His designs and repudiating His ordinances. How then can evil exist if all that exists depends upon God for its existence?
There are always and everywhere causes and reasons for things. God, in fact, is the cause and reason for the existence of nearly all. But that which brings about evil is deeply peculiar. The causes and reasons of evil are always anomalous, and are more or less veiled. Evil stands outside of the ideal "chain" of God's universal causes and reasons; it splits and disfigures these things. It exists as a rival to God as Creator, but it occupies an opposite character—that of destroyer. God creates all, and evil undertakes to destroy all.
God is the source of all true power, and yet evil, which does not come from God, possesses a real power, a real force, a real violent energy. This is clearly a mystery. Its opposition to God, and His designs, is real, not imaginary, and is very active. Good, in this world, is seriously limited and oppressed by the insurrection of evil. God Himself is engaged in a struggle with these powers of darkness, and yet in this struggle there are very real losses, and there is a perpetual diminution of the good, perpetual because as good will live forever in Heaven, so evil will live forever in Hell. Universal harmony, willed and established by God, is thrown into discord, is decomposed, and the world is fallen. The entire world, in this fallen state, is surrounded by a dismal twilight of nothingness. No longer is it that world which was conceived and created by God. There are morbid innovations, new existences — existences that are "false" but nonetheless real. Evil adds something to that which was created by God, it has the ability to imitate God's creation. Its existence, its power, its ability to thwart to some real degree God's plan for the universe, are all indeed in the realm of full mystery.
But God has His response to the world of evil. God has in fact responded to evil once and for all through His Beloved Son, Who came to earth to bear the sins of the world and the sins of all humanity. As a nineteenth century Russian writer said, "Evil begins on earth, but it disturbs heaven, and causes the Son of God to descend to earth." God's response to evil was the Cross, the Crucifixion, Suffering, the Death of the Incarnate Son. Evil caused God to suffer, and He accepts this suffering to the end. And so, the Glory of eternal life shines forth victoriously from the tomb of God Incarnate. The suffering and death of Jesus Christ was a triumph, a decisive victory. It is also a triumph of Divine Love which calls us, and accepts us, without any coercion. Evil indeed continues its shadowy existence, but it is now an existence encompassed all around by the framework of God's Love for us.
One may define evil as nothingness. Certainly evil never exits by itself but only inside of Goodness. Evil is a pure negation, a privation, a mutilation. But, though evil is a void of nothingness, it is a void which exists, which swallows and devours beings. It has no power to create, but its destructive power is enormous. Evil never ascends, it always descends. The very debasement of being that it produces is frightening. Evil is chaotic, it is a separation, a decomposition constantly in progress, a disorganization of the entire structure of being.
In the human person, the place of evil, or the seat of evil, is in what the Holy Fathers of the Church call "the passions." Passions are active and have as an intrinsic part of their nature the power to entrap. Persons do not, rightfully speaking, possess passions, the passions possess them. Man is constrained and constricted, insofar as his potential is concerned, by the passions. The passions are a concentration of cosmic energies which make the human being a slave and a prisoner. They are blind, and they blind those whom they possess. The man possessed by the passions no longer acts on his own, but is acted upon. He loses even the consciousness of being a free agent. He no longer believes in freedom or the possibility of freedom, but generally ascribes his slavery to some deterministic concept of reality beyond his, or anyone else's, power to cope. As a consequence of his enslavement to evil, he loses his personality, his personal identity and he becomes chaotic, with multiple faces, or rather multiple masks. The man of passions gives every evidence of activity and energy, but in fact he is no longer genuinely free. He is nothing but a "ball" of impersonal influences. These influences hypnotize him and exercise continuous power over him.
In the world, evil is revealed to us by the suffering and sorrow that we see around us. The world is empty, cold, indifferent, a non-responding wasteland. We all suffer because of evil. The very contemplation of the universal suffering caused by evil can bring us to the brink of despair, if we allow ourselves to lose hope in the manner of non-Christians. All creation suffers, evil has generated cosmic suffering, and all is somehow poisoned by evil and its malevolent energies.
Now, the Orthodox Church teaches that man becomes truly free when he defeats the passions that hold him captive, when he subdues the sinfulness of his fallen nature. Paradoxically, it is obedience and servitude to God that leads man to true freedom, to concrete freedom, to the real freedom of adopted sons of God. God imposes a severe discipline on the man who desires true freedom, a discipline of prayer, of fasting, of watchfulness, of study, of work, of service. But, in God, and in submission to God, man's personality is restored and reintegrated in the Holy Spirit, and a true and total freedom is gained.
We read in the Holy Gospel passages wherein Christ casts out the demons from the two people afflicted, and so by His power miraculously cleanses these men of the influence of evil. Through His Church, the Orthodox Church, Christ offers each of us the ability to combat, and struggle against, and defeat evil, to cast out its influence from our lives. Satan, on the other hand, seeks to deflect us from this objective, and uses all manner of trickery to accomplish his ends. He will whisper to us that we lack time or energy to struggle against evil, and that we are incapable, even with God's help, of success. We must resist these lies!
Sin and evil makes us slaves. When we choose evil, we make a grave error, and sin then begins to enslave us. Those, for example, who choose to use drugs are often shackled to this habit for life, until death finally overtakes them. The same is true of alcohol abuse, or gambling, or other addictive evils. They are chains around our ankles, they are prisons around our souls and bodies, they rob us of true happiness in this life, and threaten our eternal happiness as well. Some well-meaning people try to encourage these people to stop their destructive ways by the use of methods that do not rely upon God, but such efforts rarely help.
There is an escape for them, however, an release for those imprisoned in the self-created cages of their sins. That escape is through the liberating Gospel of Christ Jesus. God created us for happiness and for freedom. He gave us, his most favored creatures, dominion over the whole of the universe. Through Him, through fidelity to His teaching, we may claim our birthright and defeat our Adversary, the Evil One. Let us turn our hearts to Christ, and to His Church. If we will but do that, then we will be cleansed, and set free from that Adversary whose greatest ambition is our perpetual imprisonment. May God protect us all from that Adversary!

Missionary Leaflet # 51E
Copyright © 1997 and Published by
Holy Protection Russian Orthodox Church
2049 Argyle Ave. Los Angeles, California 90068

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/good_and_evil.htm


God bless,
Philothei

[Heorhij]

I really do not believe that God created evil. If you think about it, evil is the lack of good.Cold is the lack of heat, darkness is the lack of light, and the same way is evil. Thus God did not create it; it is created every time one of us makes the wrong choice. It was created when Lucifer decided he wanted to be above God, thus he created evil in himself. It is created when we choose to lie, cheat, steal, lust, kill, or do any sins. Thats what evil really is, when we make the wrong choice.
AFAIK, that's a very Orthodox answer :)

[Orthosdoxa]

I was going to say the same thing. Good answer, kulenok!

[ANgkhulitmo]

Saying evil is the absense of good, and then comparing that to cold is the absense of heat is a rather weak answer. Nothing personal but if you want to get into the truth of the matter if you never have heat then you would never have cold, if you never had light then you would never have darkness, they are just merely opposites of the same spectrum.

To the question of did God create evil, in going off the basis that God created everything then yes he created evil.. Christians claim Lucifer as the evil one, Satan/devil if you will(this is running off common misnomers not on in depth scriptural debates of those three being different entities entirely), but as we all have been told, God created all the Heavens and Hells as well as Earth. So God created Lucifer, God also created man and gave him free will. But how would man be able to truly express that freewill when there was no true good and evil, there was only God's path.

So Lucifer's defiance, and refusal to obey God seems to be a more structured source for their to be an option A and B in the realm of free will for man. God created a temptation, a source of evil so to say, and in so doing gave man a chance to truly explore the gift of free will.

So yes, i would have to say God created evil, and in all honesty, God is just as evil as he is good, but just as we have free will so does God and he choses to follow the path of kindess and good as its termed.

which would lead into a whole new realm of, if God created good and evil, then how did he know of its existence before he created, unless he wasnt the first. but thats for another day.

[DarkNLovely]

I think God created evil! I just don't believe He has evil intents toward us. Remeber, "Man has become like us; knowing both good and evil!"

[nestoj]

Saying evil is the absense of good, and then comparing that to cold is the absense of heat is a rather weak answer. Nothing personal but if you want to get into the truth of the matter if you never have heat then you would never have cold, if you never had light then you would never have darkness, they are just merely opposites of the same spectrum.

To the question of did God create evil, in going off the basis that God created everything then yes he created evil.. Christians claim Lucifer as the evil one, Satan/devil if you will(this is running off common misnomers not on in depth scriptural debates of those three being different entities entirely), but as we all have been told, God created all the Heavens and Hells as well as Earth. So God created Lucifer, God also created man and gave him free will. But how would man be able to truly express that freewill when there was no true good and evil, there was only God's path.

So Lucifer's defiance, and refusal to obey God seems to be a more structured source for their to be an option A and B in the realm of free will for man. God created a temptation, a source of evil so to say, and in so doing gave man a chance to truly explore the gift of free will.

So yes, i would have to say God created evil, and in all honesty, God is just as evil as he is good, but just as we have free will so does God and he choses to follow the path of kindess and good as its termed.

which would lead into a whole new realm of, if God created good and evil, then how did he know of its existence before he created, unless he wasnt the first. but thats for another day.
You are trying to bring balance where there is none. Light, heat and all that you've mentioned as symbolic representation of good, exist beyond (outside of) time. "Two poles" is a human concept. We attempt to place God in this, limited, concept, unable to see that God is beyond placing anywhere. Look at Adam and Eve. While in union with God, there was no shame, there was no evil, there was no sin, there was no death...none of the "second pole", but there was all from the "first pole". There is no cold as such, there is absence of heat, and in fullness of heat cold cannot be found. There is no death, only absence of life (God) and in the presence of God, death cannot be found....

What we know of humans in our present state is not a good lead to understanding God. You should look at humans in their true state for a good lead - try with our Lord Christ.

nestoj
God helps

[Heorhij]

Saying evil is the absense of good, and then comparing that to cold is the absense of heat is a rather weak answer. Nothing personal but if you want to get into the truth of the matter if you never have heat then you would never have cold, if you never had light then you would never have darkness, they are just merely opposites of the same spectrum.

To the question of did God create evil, in going off the basis that God created everything then yes he created evil.. Christians claim Lucifer as the evil one, Satan/devil if you will(this is running off common misnomers not on in depth scriptural debates of those three being different entities entirely), but as we all have been told, God created all the Heavens and Hells as well as Earth. So God created Lucifer, God also created man and gave him free will. But how would man be able to truly express that freewill when there was no true good and evil, there was only God's path.

So Lucifer's defiance, and refusal to obey God seems to be a more structured source for their to be an option A and B in the realm of free will for man. God created a temptation, a source of evil so to say, and in so doing gave man a chance to truly explore the gift of free will.

So yes, i would have to say God created evil, and in all honesty, God is just as evil as he is good, but just as we have free will so does God and he choses to follow the path of kindess and good as its termed.

which would lead into a whole new realm of, if God created good and evil, then how did he know of its existence before he created, unless he wasnt the first. but thats for another day.
AFAIK, that's basically what we call a "Manichean" view of God and the world. The Orthodox view is very different (see Nestoj's summary).

[ANgkhulitmo]

I look at everything in a very logical fashion, which im sure is a reason i have an "absence" of faith. But i do not begrudge those who believe, i just try to comprehend how it is possible to believe in something without evidence. And no im not looking for the circular debate of faith is belief without evidence and just accepting and knowing.

So many talk of God, Allah, and etc as being this divine force on earth and in heaven and that if you accept them into your heart you will feel it. But my question for that is, are you sure its not your using your own brain to trick your chemical composition into these feelings of elation that God creates. People claim a sense of calm, or elation, or peace and a million other sensations (some are rather horrible) when they "find" God, but how is it that i can attain those exact same feelings through a syringe and some chemicals, or the right food, or through deep mediative trances.

i know i know.. thread hijack and i will desist.

[icxn]

I look at everything in a very logical fashion, which im sure is a reason i have an "absence" of faith. But i do not begrudge those who believe, i just try to comprehend how it is possible to believe in something without evidence. And no im not looking for the circular debate of faith is belief without evidence and just accepting and knowing.
Faith is such a simple "function," nobody is without it. Every time you sit in a chair you do so in faith that is will not collapse under your weight. That is what is all about. In case of the Christian faith it is a conviction that God will not let us down when we put our trust in Him. Time and practice soon prove that this is so. Many people nowadays are in such a hurry, they hardly have any time to sit down. Others, unfortunately, have only experienced broken or otherwise cheap chairs that soon let them down. This can create a psychological fear and no longer trust to sit in a chair.. and so they lie down on the ground (logic). It is very hard to find good products these days... almost everything is made of cheap materials... that is why we go for the older stuff. They are better made, especially if they have withstood 2000 years of abuse...;) if you can see my drift.

So many talk of God, Allah, and etc as being this divine force on earth and in heaven and that if you accept them into your heart you will feel it. But my question for that is, are you sure its not your using your own brain to trick your chemical composition into these feelings of elation that God creates. People claim a sense of calm, or elation, or peace and a million other sensations (some are rather horrible) when they "find" God, but how is it that i can attain those exact same feelings through a syringe and some chemicals, or the right food, or through deep mediative trances.True, but there also exists a genuine experience of God and I hope you find it.

:)

Ps. Welcome to TAW btw.

[ANgkhulitmo]

Its not faith that i believe a chair will support my weight when i sit in it. It is a logical comprehension of the facts of physics. It was designed and engineered to support a certain quanity of mass. Do i know for a fact that it will support me? yes for i am able to look at its structural design and determine if the materials and design are capable of support.

As for the chair constantly breaking and logic deeming you to lay down instead.. thats a psychological condition that is the exact opposition of logic. If something breaks, logic dictates to know why it broke. If you break a chair and then just get the same chair and break it again thats illogical.

As for the older stuff being better then why do we not default back to older laws and traditions, such as when christianity accepted the concept of slavery. Accepting without comprehension is not logical.

As for the God experience, i highly doubt i will discover it. When i cant walk down the street with my friend without hearing Christians insulting him just because he is Homosexual, i doubt i will find the God that supports that. When I am told it is perfectly okay to demean and control women's choices because god says its not right for abortions, i doubt i will find that God.

There have been more atrocities and vile actions in this world committed in the name of some God then any other reasoning, how could i possibly look at religion from a logical point of view and find it to be a beneficial aspect of life.

I have no problem with people wishing to believe in anything they chose, but when their personal beliefs cause the pain and suffering that has been inflicted upon this world i marvel at how it could possibly still be allowed.

Slavery used to entrap a human being and bind them to another, it was deemed horrible and destructive to a human. And it was outlawed. Religion has caused the death of hundreds of millions through out history and yet it is still considered a cherished and loved ideological belief, that is good.

So yeah, the chances of me finding this God experience are not there.

[seashale76]

Anti-religionists have also caused countless deaths. I'm not meaning to be contentious, but this concept does indeed work the other way, sadly enough.

[ANgkhulitmo]

If your in reference to the one country that actually managed to become a recognized non-christian state, that would mean in reference to russia. Which yes it was intially based upon Marxist beliefs but warped to fit into the mandates of its early leaders (Stalin, Lenin, etc..) and they did not hold themselves as Anti-religion, they were just focused on the worship of the state, not the god.

Unless you were inferring to another country that was truly anti-religious. Which i cannot think of a single country in history that was ever anti-religious (which constitutes the concepts of being opposed to religion.)

[MariaRegina]

Anti-religionists have also caused countless deaths. I'm not meaning to be contentious, but this concept does indeed work the other way, sadly enough.

Yes, and emotionally sick people too who suddenly turn against Christ.

Let us pray for the four recently murdered Christians in Colorado.

[Heorhij]

If your in reference to the one country that actually managed to become a recognized non-christian state, that would mean in reference to russia. Which yes it was intially based upon Marxist beliefs but warped to fit into the mandates of its early leaders (Stalin, Lenin, etc..) and they did not hold themselves as Anti-religion, they were just focused on the worship of the state, not the god.

Unless you were inferring to another country that was truly anti-religious. Which i cannot think of a single country in history that was ever anti-religious (which constitutes the concepts of being opposed to religion.)
Under "russia" (should actually be Russia, no?) you probably mean the post-1917 derivative of the Russian Empire, correct?

If so, then, of course, it was very anti-religious and anti-Christian. Between Nov. 1917 and ~1938/9, it was not even "etatistic" or state-worshipping; it was, rather, plainly Satanic, entirely built on the Freemasonic/Voltaireian ideals of vengeance against the established "from above" societal order, authority, aristocracy, spirituality. Between ~1938/9 and ~1967/8, it gradually evolved into what Reagan called an "evil empire," and then into a "cleptocracy" (empire of cheats and thieves).

In many other countries, there is a very strong anti-Christian element at work, too.

[nutroll]

As for the older stuff being better then why do we not default back to older laws and traditions, such as when christianity accepted the concept of slavery. Accepting without comprehension is not logical.

As for the God experience, i highly doubt i will discover it. When i cant walk down the street with my friend without hearing Christians insulting him just because he is Homosexual, i doubt i will find the God that supports that. When I am told it is perfectly okay to demean and control women's choices because god says its not right for abortions, i doubt i will find that God.

There have been more atrocities and vile actions in this world committed in the name of some God then any other reasoning, how could i possibly look at religion from a logical point of view and find it to be a beneficial aspect of life.

I have no problem with people wishing to believe in anything they chose, but when their personal beliefs cause the pain and suffering that has been inflicted upon this world i marvel at how it could possibly still be allowed.

Slavery used to entrap a human being and bind them to another, it was deemed horrible and destructive to a human. And it was outlawed. Religion has caused the death of hundreds of millions through out history and yet it is still considered a cherished and loved ideological belief, that is good.

So yeah, the chances of me finding this God experience are not there.

I think it is important that if we are going to work from logic, that we be really accurate in what we are saying. I hear all the time the argument that there have been countless atrocities in the name of some god. Now while I will grant you that this is true, it ultimately means nothing. The reason I say this is that, unless we are discussing a religious movement that tries to harmonize all religions together, no religious group is responsible for any other group. If we are to discount religions, we must do so on a case by case basis. If the Orthodox Church is true, then by definition, all other religions are false (though they may have some truth, just not all). And if the other religions are false, then of course one can expect that they will do things which are wrong based on their wrong beliefs. It is not fair that Orthodox Christians should have to answer for the sins of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Catholics, Protestants, etc. If you lump them all together, you may have a more persuasive argument, but you have lost the basis for a valid argument.

Now of course depending on your standards for what is right and wrong, you may still have a problem with our beliefs, but at least it is a specific problem with a specific belief.

You mentioned a few problems that you have in particular. On the topic of slavery, the Orthodox Church goes back to way before slavery, and was not associated with slavery. The specific mentions of slavery in the Bible do not condone slavery, but suggest how a Christian should respond to being a slave (which in context is more along the lines of indentured servitude). As with all situations, a Christian should accept their circumstances and at all times seek to glorify God even in the worst of circumstances. So I wouldn't say that we have ever endorsed slavery, but rather endorsed humility and bearing one's cross. You may not like that answer still, but it is more accurate to the situation, and more honest.

On the issue of homosexuality, while the Orthodox Church teaches that homosexual acts are sinful, you won't see us holding signs that say "God hates [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]." You won't see us taunting and harassing homosexuals, because we recognize that we are all sinners, and that their sin is not any greater than our own. We also teach that all sex outside of marriage is wrong, and our reasons for this are much more involved than "because the Bible says so." The Orthodox Church is not concerned with bludgeoning people with their sins, but rather in teaching them to strip away from their lives those things that hold us back from seeking God to our fullest. Again, you may not like the stance that we take, but please don't lump us in with the Westboro Baptist folks.

As for abortion, we believe that abortion is every bit as much of an atrocity as any other that you can name in history. It is inconceivable to us that people see a child, no matter what stage of development as something to be gotten rid of. So you will see Orthodox Christians protesting, and arguing against it, but you won't see us (I pray that this never happens) shooting abortion doctors or bombing abortion clinics. This issue ties in with our teaching on sexuality in general, and while there really isn't a big issue with Orthodox Christians getting abortions, many Orthodox Christians feel that these children need an advocate since they cannot speak for themselves. It seems to me that it is a good and virtuous thing for people to stand up for those who cannot stand up for themselves. You may think we're misguided, but I hope that you can at least see that we are not doing this just to keep women oppressed.

My whole point in this is to ask you to not lump everyone together and use that as an argument against all religion. Even if Orthodoxy is false, I think an honest look at the Orthodox Church will show far more good than bad. Of course evil things are done by people of all religions, philosophies, and parties. The task of someone who really wants to be logical is to assess each one on its own merits.

[ANgkhulitmo]

Anti-Christian is not Anti-religion... there are hundreds of acknowledged religions within this world and a few quite a bit older then Christianity.. so being opposed to christian dogma is not being opposed to religion on a whole.

[Heorhij]

Anti-Christian is not Anti-religion... there are hundreds of acknowledged religions within this world and a few quite a bit older then Christianity.. so being opposed to christian dogma is not being opposed to religion on a whole.
Well, what you call "russia" (obviously meaning, the post Nov. 1917 derivative of the Russian Empire) was anti-Muslim and anti-Buddhist and anti-Judaist and anti-(you name it) as well, not just anti-Christian...