The Sovereignity of God

[SobriaInebrietas]

This is a term that I have realized I hear much more often than anything else about God, an aspect that is stressed so vehemently by the Reformed faith, that it overshadows - at least for me - all other aspects of His goodness.

His justice is greater than His mercy? His judgment is greater than His love? He is just some capricious old man in the sky picking and choosing who will go to heaven and who will go to hell?

I understand the truth of His sovereignity and that God is just - But this should lead us to the Cross and Christ?! Not greater despair?! And if I despair, maybe I really am one of the damned?! I can't help but run these things through my mind over and over and over again... I feel utterly lost and condemned - worse so than when I first became a Christian a few years ago. I understand that there is supposed to be hope and comfort in the doctrine of election, but the idea that we are merely puppets on a string, dancing about to God's every whim, subject to whatever fate He chooses for us - whether saved OR UNSAVED?! I am at a loss for words to explain what this does to me mentally and emotionally...

If the Cross was only a gift to the elect, I am doomed... I fear I am not one of them.

Sorry about the ranting... All of it boggles my mind! I just want to know... What do you say to all this?

Thanks for listening.

[filosofer]

This is a term that I have realized I hear much more often than anything else about God, an aspect that is stressed so vehemently by the Reformed faith, that it overshadows - at least for me - all other aspects of His goodness.

Yep, as Lutherans we have trouble with that emphasis as well.



His justice is greater than His mercy? His judgment is greater than His love? He is just some capricious old man in the sky picking and choosing who will go to heaven and who will go to hell?

I understand the truth of His sovereignity and that God is just - But this should lead us to the Cross and Christ?! Not greater despair?! And if I despair, maybe I really am one of the damned?! I can't help but run these things through my mind over and over and over again... I feel utterly lost and condemned - worse so than when I first became a Christian a few years ago. I understand that there is supposed to be hope and comfort in the doctrine of election, but the idea that we are merely puppets on a string, dancing about to God's every whim, subject to whatever fate He chooses for us - whether saved OR UNSAVED?! I am at a loss for words to explain what this does to me mentally and emotionally...

If the Cross was only a gift to the elect, I am doomed... I fear I am not one of them.

Sorry about the ranting... All of it boggles my mind! I just want to know... What do you say to all this?

Thanks for listening.

This goes back to my point on another thread about applying Law and Gospel correctly.

Basically, election cannot be determined apart from faith in Jesus Christ. If there is no faith in Jesus Christ, election seems capricious. However, one who believes in Jesus Christ can look at election and be assured. In Paul's letter to the Ephesians, he writes the phrase "in Christ" (or equivalents: "in him" in the beloved") 37 times, 27 times in chapters 1-3, where he sets the foundation of faith. Note this passage about God's choosing - it is done "in Christ". If you are "in Christ" (believe in him) then you know that God has elected you; and that is the comfort we have - in other words, in the Gospel.


Ephesians 1:3-6 ESV
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

[SobriaInebrietas]

This goes back to my point on another thread about applying Law and Gospel correctly.

Basically, election cannot be determined apart from faith in Jesus Christ. If there is no faith in Jesus Christ, election seems capricious. However, one who believes in Jesus Christ can look at election and be assured. In Paul's letter to the Ephesians, he writes the phrase "in Christ" (or equivalents: "in him" in the beloved") 37 times, 27 times in chapters 1-3, where he sets the foundation of faith. Note this passage about God's choosing - it is done "in Christ". If you are "in Christ" (believe in him) then you know that God has elected you; and that is the comfort we have - in other words, in the Gospel.


Thank you for that and for reminding me of those Scriptures. That makes a lot more sense to me...

Forgive me for meandering about into a few more thoughts, your words clear some things, and yet there is still all this confusion in my head: Whenever I do mention to our pastor that sometimes I severely doubt my salvation (though I do not live in sin, nor am I unrepentant, and maybe this is a simply a problem of the deep depressions I often fall into), he points me further towards the sovereignity of God saying "This is a lie, because God has chosen you and He will not let you fall away from Him no matter what you do. He is in control." (here presenting all the related Scripture that proves these points). So why then do I doubt? Why does He allow His special people to doubt Him so severely?

So, what then of free will? The Calvinistic view is that man's will is not free to do anything, whether good or bad, because it is either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness, depending on what God has chosen for that particular individual, and that all-sovereign God has already made his plans for us and our lives and we cannot deviate from them. How then are we not puppets? If our entire being, and lives, and salvation are decided already for us, and we cannot choose God, nor avoid damnation if that is our fate, what can we do? Nothing! This thinking is hopelessness and of no comfort to me! I cannot find comfort merely in a doctrine that says I am chosen (when there is always the chance that I have been chosen for damnation - or not chosen at all), because I do not deserve it and I cannot live up to it, and if I cannot be assured that Christ's death was surely for me as an elect (as opposed to knowing without uncertainty that He died for the sins of the whole world), I have nothing to hope for.

He also says to me that I can be sure of my election because of my baptism, but if my baptism is only a sign/symbol of something done in me which is not seen, how can I be assured by this? If that is the truth there is no reason to believe that my baptism necessarily means anything except that I chose to do so as a sign of my faith (which I do or do not have?!)

Does any of this make sense at all, or am I now the one running about in circles?

:tutu: Haha!

I'm sorry if I am being confusing or not understanding your point entirely!

[filosofer]

While prior to conversion we have no free will, after conversion our will is tainted but also we are regenerated. Hence there is a struggle in our walk of faith (Romans 7). As Luther points out, after conversion we work as a team: the Holy Spirit is the ox, we are the flea, and we pull in tandem.

While the Calvinist will use Baptism as a sovereignty of God issue, Biblically Baptism is always tied to God's grace and mercy and forgiveness of sins in Jesus Christ (i.e. Gospel).