Andrew Fuller - ON THE CHRISTIAN SABBATH

[JM]

For interest sake:



ON THE CHRISTIAN SABBATH [An original letter.]
Aug. 25, 1805.

MY DEAR FRIEND, Kettering,

I RECEIVED yours yesterday, and, though my hands are full, I must write you a few thoughts on the Lord’s day. Your views on that subject, I am persuaded, are injurious to your soul, and to the souls of many more in – . It is one of those consequences which arise from an extreme attention to instituted worship, to the neglect of what is moral. If the keeping of a sabbath to God were not in all ages binding, why is it introduced in the moral law, and founded upon God’s resting from his works? If it were merely a Jewish ceremonial, why do we read of time being divided by weeks before the law? There was a day in the time of John the apostle which the Lord called his own; and as you do not suppose this to be the seventh, (for, if it were, we ought still to keep it,) you must allow it to be the first. The first day then ought to be kept as the Lord’s own day, and we ought not to think our own thoughts, converse on our own affairs, nor follow our own business on it. To say, as you do, that we must not eat our own supper on that day is requiring what was never required on the Jewish sabbath. Necessary things were always allowed.

Nor did my argument from 1 Cor. xi. suppose this. The argument was – the ordinance of breaking bread being called the Lord’s supper proved that they ought not to eat their own supper while eating that supper; therefore the first day being called the Lord’s day proves we ought not to follow our own unnecessary concerns while that day continues, but to devote it to the Lord, and this is a moral duty – that, whatever day we keep, we keep it to the Lord.

Your notions of instituted worship, to the overlooking of what is moral, I am persuaded have injured you as to family worship and family government. It is not said of Abraham that God gave him a special precept about commanding “his household after him,” but knew him that he would do it. It was one of those things, and so is the other, of which it might be said, “Ye need not that I write this unto you; for ye yourselves are taught of God to do these.”

But allowing your argument, that there is no sin in attending to worldly things on the Lord’s day, yet, according to Paul’s reasoning in 1 Cor. viii., you ought to refrain.

You cause others to offend God by breaking what they consider a Divine commandment. And the reasoning of Paul, in chap. viii. 8, applies to you: If you do these things you are not the better; and if you abstained you would not be the worse. Do you not hereby sin against Christ, and wound those whom you account your weaker brethren? You must also have done harm to your son, and to the waiters at the inn. Reckon me if you please a weak brother. But so fully convinced am I of the invariable obligation of keeping a day to the Lord, that if I had seen what I did on the Lord’s day morning, it would have marred all my comfort at the Lord’s supper, and I know not that I could have there united with you. I write not because I love you not, but the reverse . . . . but, alas! the taint of your old principles I fear will remain . . . . Oh that they did not!

My dear friend, I see in you so much to love that I cannot but long to see more; and particularly to see that old leaven purged out. “The knowledge of the holy is understanding.” It is this sort of leaven that makes those few Baptists at – afraid to unite with many of your Baptists; and I cannot but approve of their conduct. They would unite with any individual who comes to them and gives satisfactory evidence of his Christianity, and of his Christian walk; but if they unite with Baptists by whole companies, they are ruined. I was told at – that the way in which the Baptists in Mr.–‘s connexion take in members was by merely requiring an account of their faith, that is, a creed, and not of the influence of truth upon their own mind. The consequence is, as might be expected, great numbers of them are men of no personal godliness, but mere speculatists. Churches formed on such principles must (like what I have heard of many societies) sink into nothing, or worse than nothing, mere worldly communities, a sort of freemasons’ lodges. My dear friend, flee from the remains of such religion! I mean no reflection upon individuals. I trust Mr. – is a good man; and I have been told his church is in the main one of the best: but, on such a principle, it cannot stand.

Affectionately yours,

A. F.

The Complete Works of Andrew Fuller
This edition on CD in PDF format was compiled by Br. Ken Oldfield and can be ordered at kdoidaho@earthlink.net

[Canuckmom]

That was an interesting article. There are strong arguments on both sides of the Sabbath/Lord's Day issue. I was raised with a very strict legalistic Lord's Day keeping. Lately I have come accross those that think different and have studied the matter, but don't know if I'll ever get done studying it, there is so much to think about.

[JM]

Canuckmom, were you raised Baptist? The more I look thur the Baptist catechisms and confessions, the "Christian" Sabbath keeps coming up.

Article 15 of the New Hampshire Confession of Faith 1833:

Of the Christian Sabbath

We believe that the first day of the week is the Lord's Day, or Christian Sabbath (Acts 20:7; Gen. 2:3; Col. 2:16-17; Mark 2:27; John 20:19; 1 Cor. 16:1- 2] and is to be kept sacred to religious purposes (Exod. 20:8; Rev. 1:10; Psa. 118:24,) by abstaining from all secular labor and sinful recreations (Isa. 58:13-14; 56:2-8] by the devout observance of all the means of grace, both private Psa. 119:15 and public (Heb. 10:24-25; Acts 11:26; 13:44; Lev. 19:30; Exod. 46:3; Luke 4:16; Acts 17:2, 3; Psa. 26:8; 87:3] and by preparation for that rest that remaineth for the people of God (Heb. 4:3-11.)

[Canuckmom]

No, I was raised in a paedobaptist church and became Baptist in adulthood. But it is true, that all the older confessions held to the Christian Sabbath.

[JM]

Why did you leave the paedo [I'm assuming Reformed?] Church? Were you taught paedobaptism from a covenant theology view point?

j

[Canuckmom]

Yes, Reformed. I'm not totally sure what is meant by covenant theology; the church I was raised in believed infants had to be baptized and yes, you were in the covenant then, but not saved by baptism. They taught the neccesity of regeneration when the infant grew up. This was contradicted by their own liturgy - the form for the administration of baptism - it clearly teaches baptismal regeneration. I left when the Lord saved me because I saw that believer's baptism was Biblical.

[R.J.S]

Yes, Reformed. I'm not totally sure what is meant by covenant theology; the church I was raised in believed infants had to be baptized and yes, you were in the covenant then, but not saved by baptism. They taught the neccesity of regeneration when the infant grew up. This was contradicted by their own liturgy - the form for the administration of baptism - it clearly teaches baptismal regeneration. I left when the Lord saved me because I saw that believer's baptism was Biblical.

I am not going to debate but got hooked on what you were saying. Some good links for your parousal:
1.http://reformedapologist.blogspot.com/2006/07/primer-on-covenant-theology-baptism-3.html
2. http://reformedapologist.blogspot.com/2006/09/children-of-promise-or-little-vipers.html

Enjoy!

Good help for the issue of the Sabbath:

The Lord's Day (http://www.amazon.com/Lords-Day-Pipa-Joey/dp/1857922018) by Joseph Pipa (Book)

and/or

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=7204235318 :thumbsup:

[mlqurgw]

Fuller's teaching on the Sabboth, among several other things, are simply incorrect. Be very careful of him. His attempts to mingle Arminian free-willism and truth are profuse in his works. He was an Amyerildian(sp?).

[R.J.S]

Amyerildian(sp?).

Amyraldian :)

[R.J.S]

A.W.Pink on the Christian Sabbath (http://members.aol.com/gregscv/sabbath.htm) :)

[mlqurgw]

A.W.Pink on the Christian Sabbath (http://members.aol.com/gregscv/sabbath.htm) :) As much as I love and respect Pink and have learned a great deal from him, His views of the Sabbath are in error. He was given much light in many areas but in this one he seems to be far too influenced by Puritan thinking. He was a product of his time and though greatly used of God never quite shed all the leaven of the Pharisees.

[JM]

I don't get how someone who is Amil, claiming eschatology is being fulfilled now spiritually, can in the same breath deny the fulfillment of the Sabbath in Christ? I don't get it.

I'm still reading on this subject but I find the arguments based on historical theology, just like presumptive regeneration, and not Biblical theology.

jm

[Canuckmom]

I don't get how someone who is Amil, claiming eschatology is being fulfilled now spiritually, can in the same breath deny the fulfillment of the Sabbath in Christ? I don't get it.

I'm still reading on this subject but I find the arguments based on historical theology, just like presumptive regeneration, and not Biblical theology.

jm

I think the part I struggled and still struggle with most is the idea that if the Sabbath is done away then what becomes of the 10 commandmnets. As A.W. Pink says there are 10 ,not 9 commandments. We wouldn't say that any of the other 9 are spiritually explained or fulfilled in such a way that we are no longer bound to them.
For me the most helpful thought has been from John Gill’s comments on the law -
...a system … of laws selected and adapted to the case …of the people of Israel striking at such sins as they were most addicted to ….not but that whatsoever of them is of a moral nature, as for the most part they are, are binding on all mankind ...Jew and Gentile.. (emphasis mine)


BTW thanks for the links, I will look them up

[JM]

Exo 20:1 - And God spake all these words,.... Which follow, commonly called the decalogue, or ten commands; a system or body of laws, selected and adapted to the case and circumstances of the people of Israel; striking at such sins as they were most addicted to, and they were under the greatest temptation of falling into the commission of; to prevent which, the observation of these laws was enjoined them; not but that whatsoever of them is of a moral nature, as for the most part they are, are binding on all mankind, and to be observed both by Jew and Gentile; and are the best and shortest compendium of morality that ever was delivered out, except the abridgment of them by our Lord, Mat_22:36, the ancient Jews had a notion, and which Jarchi delivers as his own, that these words were spoken by God in one word; which is not to be understood grammatically; but that those laws are so closely compacted and united together as if they were but one word, and are not to be detached and separated from each other; hence, as the Apostle James says, whosoever offends in one point is guilty of all, Jam_2:10, and if this notion was as early as the first times of the Gospel, one would be tempted to think the Apostle Paul had reference to it, Rom_13:9 though indeed he seems to have respect only to the second table of the law; these words were spoke in an authoritative way as commands, requiring not only attention but obedience to them; and they were spoken by God himself in the hearing of all the people of Israel; and were not, as Aben Ezra observes, spoken by a mediator or middle person, for as yet they had not desired one; nor by an angel or angels, as the following words show, though the law is said to be spoken by angels, to be ordained by them, in the hands of a mediator, and given by the disposition of them, which perhaps was afterwards done, see Act_7:53. See Gill on Act_7:53. See Gill on Gal_3:19. See Gill on Heb_2:2.Gill's one of my favorites so I had to look it up. Thanks.

Don Fortner is another one of my favorite theologians so I'll quote him here:
A Few More Thoughts About Sabbath Keeping

Colossians 2:16-17

Here are six statements that need to be thoughtfully and prayerfully considered. Do not embrace them and do not reject them until you have at least thoughtfully considered them for yourself in the light of Holy Scripture alone.
1. We observe the sabbath of faith, a spiritual sabbath rest in Christ. The Old Testament sabbath was a portrayal of faith in Christ. Like all legal ceremonies, it served no other purpose than to point sinners to Christ. As God ceased from his works on the first sabbath (Gen. 2:1-3), and demanded that the Jews cease from all works in the legal sabbath (Ex. 20:8-11), so sinners, when they trust Christ, cease trying to work their way into God’s favor (Matt. 11:28-30; Rom. 3:28; Heb. 4:10).
2. We live in the hope and anticipation of a glorious, eternal sabbath rest with Christ. "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God" (Heb. 4:9, 11).
3. We gather in the house of God and worship on the Lord’s day, and encourage all believers to do the same. Yet, we apply no sabbatical laws to the Lord’s day, and make no effort to coerce anyone to join us in the worship of our God, except by the coercion of the gospel.
4. However, there is absolutely no sense in which we keep a legal sabbath day in this age of grace. Why are we so insistent and dogmatic about this? Because Christ, who is the Lord of the sabbath, is Christ our Sabbath. For us to go back to keeping a sabbath day, as the Jews did in the Old Testament, or for us to put on the yoke of legal religion, is to say that Christ fulfilled nothing! Legalism is, in its essence, a denial of Christ’s finished work as the sinner’s Substitute. That was the reason for Paul’s strong denunciation of Peter’s behavior at Antioch.
5. Christ is the end of the law (Rom. 10:4). That statement by Paul means exactly what it appears on the surface to mean. It matters not whether you read it in Greek, English, Spanish, French, or Chinese. When the Holy Spirit says, “Christ is the end of the law,” he means for us to understand that our Lord Jesus Christ is…
· The Fulfillment of the Law.
· The Satisfaction of the Law.
· The Purpose for which the Law was Given.
· The Termination of the Law.
If you can find me any place in human language where the word end does not mean end, I will eat my dictionary and my Bible too. If the law is fulfilled, satisfied, and its purpose accomplished in and by Christ, then it finds its termination in Christ.
6. The New Testament expressly forbids sabbath observance by believers. Not only is there no instruction on how believers should keep the sabbath in this gospel age, the practice is specifically forbidden (Col. 2:16-17).
Don Fortner

[Canuckmom]

Thanks for posting those thoughts by Don Fortner; they are very helpful!

[JM]

www.donfortner.com

[mlqurgw]

Gill's one of my favorites so I had to look it up. Thanks.

Don Fortner is another one of my favorite theologians so I'll quote him here:Don wouldn't call himself a theologian. He would claim only to be a simple preacher of the Gospel. :thumbsup:

[mlqurgw]

www.donfortner.com (http://www.donfortner.com)
If any want to know what I actually look like they can check out our church family pictures on the site. I am the next to the last. The picture would make a good target for darts. Just be careful that you miss my wife when you throw them. ;)

[DeaconDean]

If any want to know what I actually look like they can check out our church family pictures on the site. I am the next to the last. The picture would make a good target for darts. Just be careful that you miss my wife when you throw them. ;)

your right my friend! hehe

People see my picture and often say they have seen better mugs on iodine bottles. :D

Just kidding. Thats a good picture of you and your wife.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[R.J.S]

Gill's one of my favorites so I had to look it up. Thanks.

Don Fortner is another one of my favorite theologians so I'll quote him here:

I will reply in detail later...remind me if I do not :)

[JM]

You can if you want to RJS but I've read the Reformed view a few times and I'm reading Pipa on the subject now...could you add something that Pipa does not have in his book on the sabbath?

[R.J.S]

You can if you want to RJS but I've read the Reformed view a few times and I'm reading Pipa on the subject now...could you add something that Pipa does not have in his book on the sabbath?

I was going to deal directly with the use of Hebrews 4. This chapter is used to undermine the sabbatarian's case however if you study it carefully then it is quite clear that the sabbath is not the issue as such.

Noone is going to deny that Christ is our rest, what I am going to deny is that means "therefore God's command to set aside a day to worship him is abrogated". Remember that there is a future rest in eternity. The weekly sabbath is not typological but moral. Once that is seen it becomes far simpler :)

I have had a busy day mate and my brain isn't up to in depth stuff now so will point you simply to Gill on Hebrews 4 found here (http://www.freegrace.net/gill/Hebrews/Hebrews_4.htm) and the following will help from Hoeksema.


If this idea of the Sabbath is understood, it will not be difficult to see the reason why we speak, in our second proposition, of the different phases of the Sabbath in its historical development or realization, as God prepares the rest for His people. The work which God performs for His people in preparing for them His rest, though perfect in His counsel from all eternity, is realized for us in time, follows a certain line of historical development, and in the course of history presents certain distinct phases. I consider it the fundamental error of the Seventh Day Adventist that he does not recognize this historical progress of God's work, and therefore insists that even now we must celebrate the Sabbath of creation. Yet, it is to be feared that many people of God today understand very little of this fundamental error, and, although by force of tradition they keep the first day of the week, might easily be swept off their feet if they should be called to defend their position.

It is, then, not superfluous to call attention to this historical development of the Sabbath of the Lord our God in its different phases. These different phases or stages of development we may designate by the terms: creation-sabbath, shadow-sabbath, resurrection-sabbath, and the final or perfected-sabbath in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. All the more proper it is to call attention to these stages of development, because the Word of God points us to them in Hebrews 4 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Hebrews+4). For, clearly, the author of that epistle speaks of the creation-sabbath in the latter part of chapter 4:3 and in the fourth verse of that chapter, where he writes: "Although the works were finished from the foundation of the World. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise: And God did rest the seventh day from all his works." Yet, the author continues, although this creation-rest would appear to be the rest of God, he also spake of another day as His rest, namely one which He prepared for His people in the land of Canaan, when He said: "If they shall enter into my rest!" This, then, was another rest, another Sabbath, a different stage in the development of the Sabbath. But even this is not the final stage. For in David He speaks of still another day, when He says: "Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your heart looking forward therefore, to another rest than that of Canaan. For if Jesus (Joshua of the old dispensation) had given them rest, when he led them into the land of Canaan, he would not afterward have spoken of another day" (vv. 7-8). That other day is the day of the new dispensation. Now the work of God is perfected in Christ Jesus. Yet, it is not yet manifested in all its glory, and there remaineth therefore still a Sabbath for the people of God (v. 9).

First of all, then, Scripture speaks of the Sabbath of creation. God had finished the creation of the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested. This certainly does not imply that the Almighty and ever living God was idle for a day, for as we showed in our first proposition, this is quite inconceivable, being in conflict with the divine nature; and the Lord emphatically denies this, when He says to the criticizing Jews: "My Father worketh hitherto and I work" (John 5:17 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=John+5:17)). But it does signify that He ceased from creating and that He entered into the enjoyment of His finished work. And He also sanctified and blessed that seventh day, so that it became a Sabbath for man. For, man was to enter into God's rest. He was created after God's own image, that is with a creaturely likeness of God, adapted to live in God's covenant-fellowship, in true knowledge of God, righteousness, and holiness, that He might know God, love Him with all his heart and mind and soul and strength, be wholly consecrated to Him alone, and serve Him as king under God in connection with the entire earthly creation. Man was God's friend-servant. And in Paradise the first it was his calling to labour to enter into God's rest, keeping the garden, opposing the devil, and maintaining the covenant of God. Thus man would celebrate the Sabbath and eat of the tree of life, which was in the midst of the garden.

But the first man did not enter into the rest of God. He violated the covenant of God, denied his Sovereign-friend, and became a friend of Satan, the enemy of God. He fell, and the whole human race with him, into that which is the very antithesis of the Sabbath of the Lord, the labour and toil, the darkness and corruption, the guilt and unrest of sin, the wages of which is death. God had spoken of His rest to man, and the first man had despised the rest. And God had sworn that he should not enter into His rest. He was exiled and banished from God's presence. The tabernacle of God had appeared in Paradise long enough to be shown as an image of glorious things, but in the first man Adam it could not be maintained and glorified. It was with man no longer.

But God had provided some better thing for us (Heb. 11:40 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Heb+11:40)). Although His works were finished from the foundation of the world (Heb. 4:3 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Heb+4:3)), and although He rested on the seventh day from all His works (Heb. 4:4 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Heb+4:4)), and although He had created man to enter into that rest with Him and in His fellowship, so that when man failed to enter into that rest of creation, the Sabbath seemed passed and lost forever, yet He spoke of another day, of a better and higher rest that was to come. His counsel was not finished with the work of creation, neither at all frustrated by the fall of man. For, the better thing which He had provided for His people in Christ Jesus is the eternal rest of the highest and perfect manifestation of His covenant-life, the heavenly tabernacle of God with men. Of that eternal tabernacle the first Paradise was but an image.

When the image disappeared God began a new work, the work of grace and salvation. He began to realize the higher manifestation of His covenant and to lead His people into the rest of that other day of which He spoke and always speaks in the gospel. It is the work of grace by which He causes them to cease from the labour and toil and slavery of sin, delivers them from the bondage of corruption and darkness and death, and leads them into the perfect liberty of the children of God and to that highest covenant-fellowship in which they may know Him even as they are known, and see Him face to face.

Of that rest the land of Canaan was a type, even as Egypt is typical of the unrest and bondage of sin. When God delivered Israel with a mighty hand out of Egypt, led them through the Red Sea and through the desert, fed them with manna from heaven and quenched their thirst with water from the Rock, made them pass over Jordan and gave them the land of Canaan for a possession, He led them into the rest. Hence, the very heart of that land was to be sought in the tabernacle and temple, where God dwelled with and among His people. Hence, too, Canaan was pre-eminently a Sabbath-land and in it the people must celebrate the weekly Sabbath, the Sabbaths of many special festivals, the sabbatical year, and the year of jubilee. Hence, too, the weekly Sabbath was a memorial in Israel to make them remember the great deliverance which God wrought for them when He liberated them from the yoke of bondage: "And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day" (Deut. 5:15 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Deut+5:15)). Joshua, therefore, had led the people of God into the rest which God had prepared for them.

Yet, even so the work of God was not finished. God had provided still some better things for us. Canaan was a phase of the Sabbath of the Lord, a stage in its historical development, a type of the better and eternal rest, but not the rest itself. In this final sense Joshua had not given the people rest. This is evident from the fact that even after Joshua had led them into the land of Canaan God still speaks of another day, still puts the Sabbath in the future and in the light of the promise (Heb. 4:7-8 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Heb+4:7,8)). If Canaan had been the rest, He would not have spoken of another day. The fact is that the whole of that typical rest, with oil and wine and corn, with temple and altar and sacrifice, with prophet and priest and king, with its continual threat of God's impending curse, which became more and more a reality as history advanced and was fulfilled when Jerusalem was finally destroyed and the nation was cast off, that all these things loudly proclaimed that Canaan could not be the rest of God and that the earthly Jerusalem was no abiding city. The fact is, too, that under the influence of all these clear testimonies, and in the light of the ever repeated promise by the prophets, the true people of God in Israel longed to be delivered from the yoke of the law and lived in the hope of the salvation of the Lord. It was only in that hope that they could still keep the Sabbath, even in captivity, in a strange country (Isa. 56:1-2 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Isa+56:1,2)). The blood of bulls and goats, it gradually became more and more evident, could never make perfect and lead to the rest of the Lord.

And God spoke of another day. He still worked to realize the rest for His people. And He realized it in Christ Jesus. He accomplished it when He sent His only begotten Son into the flesh, and in the Son united Himself in personal unity with man. In Him, God and man in unity of divine Person, the tabernacle is centrally with man in such a way that it can be destroyed never more. God dwells with His people forever. He realized it when Christ laboured at the head of all His people, to enter into the rest of God in the way of His justice and righteousness. For, He laboured and toiled, He strove and fought the battle alone, against the powers of darkness, sin, and the devil. He suffered and shed His lifeblood in the toil. He died and entered into the agony of hell, as the faithful Friend-servant of God, the better and second Adam, that had come to do the Father's will. In the midst of His toil He became exceedingly sorrowful. In the depth of His suffering He became utterly amazed. Yet, He was always perfectly obedient, and at the end of it all He could go in the peaceful consciousness that it was all finished. Through Him God accomplished the work, realized the rest, when He raised Him from the dead and gave Him heavenly glory.

Hence, we now speak of the resurrection-sabbath. God rested on that resurrection-day from all His work. The Sabbath of the Lord is accomplished on the first day of the week. On the other, the glorious, the heavenly side of the open grave stands the Immanuel and proclaims: "It is finished. Rest from your toil and labour from sin and death! Come unto Me all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest!" Into that rest of the resurrection of Jesus Christ we enter now by faith. It is the rest from all our own works, from sin and unrighteousness and death. Positively, it is the rest of entering into the perfect righteousness of God and His blessed covenant-fellowship. Yet, finally, even now, the Sabbath is not fully manifested. Spiritually and in principle indeed, the tabernacle of God is with men. We cease from works and have peace with God. But we are still living in a strange country. And though we do not battle to obtain, to merit the rest of God, yet we still must labour and fight because we possess the rest in principle. And in the world we shall have tribulation. Hence, while principally we have entered into the rest, the Sabbath still is presented to us in the light of the promise and there still remaineth a rest for the people of God. The rest will be revealed when all God's counsel is accomplished, when the last enemy shall have been overcome, when Christ shall come again, make our mortal bodies like unto His most glorious body, make all things new, and establish the glorious heavenly and eternal tabernacle of God with men. Then the work of God shall be finished and we shall enter with Him into the eternal rest of perfect fellowship, the Sabbath of perfect activity to the praise and glory of Him that loved us!

http://www.cprf.co.uk/pamphlets/propersabbath.htm

[JM]

A few interesting links:

Is There A "Covenant Of Grace?" (http://solochristo.com/theology/nct/covofgrace.htm)~ Jon Zens

Christ's Children of Promise (http://solochristo.com/theology/nct/christschildrenofpromise.htm)~ Mike McHugh


The Christian's Relationship To The Mosaic Law (http://solochristo.com/theology/nct/maurochristianlaw.htm) ~ Phillip Mauro

Crucial Thoughts On "Law" In The New Covenant (http://solochristo.com/theology/nct/crucial.htm) ~ Jon Zens

Tablets of Stone (http://solochristo.com/theology/nct/stone/stonemain.htm) ~ John Reisinger

Rethinking Our Use of ‘Moral Law' (http://www.ncbf.net/doctor/Moral_Law.html) ~ Mike Adams

The Law Established By The Faith Of Christ ~ William Huntington

Paul, The Law, and Redemptive History (http://solochristo.com/theology/nct/plrhx/plrhmain.htm) ~ Steven Capenter

The Two Covenants: Are Christians Under The Law of Moses? (http://www.angelfire.com/ia/BereanInquirer/sabbathnot.html) ~ R.C. Fuqua

[R.J.S]

Jason, don't forget that the Sabbath was not made with Israel alone nor did it begin at Horeb. :)

[JM]

Jason, don't forget that the Sabbath was not made with Israel alone nor did it begin at Horeb. :)

Deuteronomy 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

The Law Entered (http://resources.christianity.com/details/dbab/20070404/f936d70a-edbd-4208-bc5e-b49c04178cf8.aspx)

[R.J.S]

Incidently, marriage and the sabbath were both instituted before the Fall both have continued since the Fall. Marriage is a picture of Christ and the Church..... :)


Deuteronomy 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

The Law Entered (http://resources.christianity.com/details/dbab/20070404/f936d70a-edbd-4208-bc5e-b49c04178cf8.aspx)

Recall the account of the manna in Exodus 16

"And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none."
Note how this predates the giving of the law at Mt. Horeb/Sinai. :)

Keech's Catechism (http://www.creeds.net/baptists/keach.htm):

Q. 64. What is required in the fourth commandment?

A. The fourth commandment requires the keeping holy to God such set times as He has appointed in His Word, expressly one whole day in seven to be a holy Sabbath to Himself.


(Lev. 19:30; Deut. 5:12)


Q. 65. Which day of the seven has God appointed to be the weekly Sabbath?

A. From the creation of the world to the resurrection of Christ, God appointed the seventh day of the week to be the weekly Sabbath; and the first day of the week ever since, to continue to the end of the world, which is the Christian Sabbath.


(Gen. 2:3; John 20:19; Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1,2; Rev. 1:10)


Q. 66. How is the Sabbath to be sanctified?

A. The Sabbath is to sanctified by a holy resting all that day, even from such worldly employments and recreations as are lawful on other days, and spending the time in the public and private exercises of God's worship, except so much as is to be taken up in the works of necessity and mercy.


(Lev. 23:3; Isa. 58:13,14; Isa. 66:23; Matt. 12:11,12)


Q. 67. What is forbidden in the fourth commandment?

A. The fourth commandment forbids the ommission or careless performance of the duties required, and the profaning the day by idleness, or doing that which is in itself sinful, or by unnecessary thoughts, words, or works, about worldly employments or recreations.


(Ezekiel 22:26; 23:38; Jer. 17:21; Neh. 13:15,17; Acts 20:7)


Q. 68. What are the reasons annexed to the fourth commandment?

A. The reasons annexed to the fourth commandment are, God's allowing us six days of the week for our own employments, His challenging a special propriety in the seventh, His own example and His blessing the Sabbath day.


(Exodus 34:21; 31:16,17; Gen. 2:2,3)

[DeaconDean]

Jason, don't forget that the Sabbath was not made with Israel alone nor did it begin at Horeb. :)

I think the Apostolic council in Acts 15, and the Apostle Paul would disagree with you.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[R.J.S]

I think the Apostolic council in Acts 15, and the Apostle Paul would disagree with you.

You say that but where is your exegetal evidence? The Sabbath predates Sinai by thousands of years. :)

[mlqurgw]

You say that but where is your exegetal evidence? The Sabbath predates Sinai by thousands of years. :)We find no mention of anyone keeping a Sabbath, from Adam to Joseph, until Exodus 16. The Gen. 2:3 passage makes no mention of God enjoining it on any but only that He blessed and sanctified it. Why did God do that? Because the rest typified Christ and God finishing His work. The law of the Sabbath didn't come until the establishing of the Law. Believers are no more under the law of Sabbath than they are to sacrifice three times a day.

[R.J.S]

We find no mention of anyone keeping a Sabbath, from Adam to Moses, until Sinai.

First of all that is simply incorrect. In Exodus 16, years before Sinai we read of Israel keeping the Sabbath hence the big todo regarding the gathering of the manna:

Exodus 16:23 "And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning."

From this we have clear evidence of the keeping of the Sabbath prior to the giving of the Law at Mt. Sinai.

But it is also interesting to recall that the Sabbath was given to Adam in the garden and even more interesting when we read the following in Genesis:

Genesis 4:3 "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD."

The phrase "in process of time" can also be rendered "at the end of days" which possibly refers to the end of seven days, at the end of the week, or on the seventh day, which would be the sabbath day, when Cain and Abel, the sons of Adam, brought their offerings to the Lord. This is not conclusive but ought be borne in mind.

The Gen. 2:3 passage makes no mention of God enjoining it on any but only that He blessed and sanctified it. Why did God do that? Because the rest typified Christ and God finishing His work.

In the garden God sets the pattern for our lives. We are to work for six days and do our work and upon the Sabbath we are to worship him.

It is interesting to note that we find evidence in Scripture of a seven day pattern of weeks:


Genesis 8:10-12 "And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark; And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth. And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more."
God divided up our time into weeks comprising of seven days. This pattern is founded upon God's pattern in creation to which the Law at Mt. Sinai refers back to in the fourth commandment. But then we both know that the giving of the law at Sinai was but the republication of the covenant of works don't we?

The law of the Sabbath didn't come until Sinai. Believers are no more under the law of Sabbath than they are to sacrifice three times a day.

What I have said above hopefully removes this statement demonstrating it to be wrong. The Sabbath was instituted at creation (along with marriage) was kept prior to the giving of the law at Sinai (at the very least by Israel). If Israel kept the sabbath before Exodus 20 then they obviously knew of it before the giving of the law therefore your assertion that "The law of the Sabbath didn't come until Sinai" is simply incorrect.

[R.J.S]

We find no mention of anyone keeping a Sabbath, from Adam to Joseph, until Exodus 16.

I see you edited this ;)

[mlqurgw]

RJS; A few questions not intended to offend but to clarify.
Do you keep a Sabbath?
If you do then how?
If you don't keep it exactly according to the Law of the Sabbath are you really keeping it?
If you say you keep a Sabbath and don't keep it exactly according to the Law then are you not bringing down the Law to a place you can keep it and thereby destroying the Law?

[mlqurgw]

I see you edited this ;)Yes, because I was in error on a couple of points. Once I checked myself I corrected my error. :thumbsup:

[R.J.S]

RJS; A few questions not intended to offend but to clarify.

Sure thing...I have a final post on page three which you may have missed.

Do you keep a Sabbath?

Yes.

If you do then how?

I keep it in accordance with the summary provided in the Westminster Standards:

This Sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest, all the day, from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments, and recreations, but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.

The fourth commandment requires of all men the sanctifying or keeping holy to God such set times as he has appointed in his Word, expressly one whole day in seven; which was the seventh from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, and the first day of the week ever since, and so to continue to the end of the world; which is the Christian sabbath, and in the New Testament called the Lord’s day.

The sabbath or Lord’s day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day, not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful; and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to betaken up in works of necessity and mercy) in the public and private exercises of God’s worship: and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.

The sins forbidden in the fourth commandment are, all omissions of the duties required, all careless, negligent, and unprofitable performing of them, and being weary of them; all profaning the day by idleness, and doing that which is in itself sinful; and by all needless works, words, and thoughts, about our worldly employments and recreations.
If you don't keep it exactly according to the Law of the Sabbath are you really keeping it?

Depends what you mean by this so do you mind explaining in more detail?

[mlqurgw]

Sure thing...I have a final post on page three which you may have missed.



Yes.



I keep it in accordance with the summary provided in the Westminster Standards:

This Sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest, all the day, from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments, and recreations, but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.


The fourth commandment requires of all men the sanctifying or keeping holy to God such set times as he has appointed in his Word, expressly one whole day in seven; which was the seventh from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, and the first day of the week ever since, and so to continue to the end of the world; which is the Christian sabbath, and in the New Testament called the Lord’s day.


The sabbath or Lord’s day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day, not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful; and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to betaken up in works of necessity and mercy) in the public and private exercises of God’s worship: and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.


The sins forbidden in the fourth commandment are, all omissions of the duties required, all careless, negligent, and unprofitable performing of them, and being weary of them; all profaning the day by idleness, and doing that which is in itself sinful; and by all needless works, words, and thoughts, about our worldly employments and recreations.

Depends what you mean by this so do you mind explaining in more detail?You are correct that I missed your post. I will try to get to it later. I have to go now and don't have the time to give this issue and you the time you deserve. I ask your patience. :)

[R.J.S]

Yes, because I was in error on a couple of points. Once I checked myself I corrected my error. :thumbsup:

Glad to hear it mate! I am signing off for today. I would suggest you have a read of the following (esp Hodge):

Charles Hodge (http://www.apuritansmind.com/TheLordsDay/CharlesHodge4thCommandment.htm)
Jonathan Edwards (http://www.biblebb.com/files/edwards/sabbath.htm)
Thomas Shepard (http://www.apuritansmind.com/TheLordsDay/ThomasShepherdThesisSabbaticae.htm)

[JM]

But it is also interesting to recall that the Sabbath was given to Adam in the garden and even more interesting when we read the following in Genesis:Genesis 4:3 "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD."
The phrase "in process of time" can also be rendered "at the end of days" which possibly refers to the end of seven days, at the end of the week, or on the seventh day, which would be the sabbath day, when Cain and Abel, the sons of Adam, brought their offerings to the Lord. This is not conclusive but ought be borne in mind.

This is projected into the text, like the Gap Theory and Gen. 1, it's just too much to add.

In the garden God sets the pattern for our lives.This statement is too wide open, explain further please.

We are to work for six days and do our work and upon the Sabbath we are to worship him.No foundation supplied.

It is interesting to note that we find evidence in Scripture of a seven day pattern of weeks:
Genesis 8:10-12 "And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark; And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth. And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more."
God divided up our time into weeks comprising of seven days. This pattern is founded upon God's pattern in creation to which the Law at Mt. Sinai refers back to in the fourth commandment. But then we both know that the giving of the law at Sinai was but the republication of the covenant of works don't we?Interesting facts do not always lead to Biblical theology, your looking at historical information and adding a context that isn't supplied.

Quote: The number seven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_%28number%29) was the general symbol for all association with God, and was the favorite religious number of Judaism, typifying the covenant of holiness and sanctification, and also all that was holy and sanctifying in purpose. The candlestick had seven lamps, and the acts of atonement and purification were accompanied by a sevenfold sprinkling. The establishment of the Sabbath, the Sabbatical year (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbatical_year), and the year of jubilee was based on the number seven, as were the periods of purification and of mourning.

jm

[DeaconDean]

The Sabbath predates Sinai by thousands of years. :)

That so far as I have seen, has not been proven.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[R.J.S]

That so far as I have seen, has not been proven.

God Bless

Till all are one.

The Sabbath was instituted at creation and we find Israel keeping the Sabbath four chapters (Ex. 16) before they were supposedly told about it (Ex. 20)

[R.J.S]

This is projected into the text, like the Gap Theory and Gen. 1, it's just too much to add.

As I pointed out, it does not prove that the weekly Sabbath was kept by them but it is something to consider. Here is Pink (http://members.aol.com/gregscv/sabbath.htm):

We ask the reader to turn to Gen. 4:3 and note thoughtfully the marginal reading-which, as usual, is to be preferred to the reading in the text. "And at the end of days it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord." Here the Holy Spirit has seen well to call our attention to the time when Cain (and Abel likewise: see Gen. 4:4, "And Abel he also," etc.) brought his offering to the Lord. The bringing of offerings by Cain and Abel was the formal recognition of God. It was an act of worship. Now, why has the Holy Spirit told us that the sons of Adam and Eve worshipped God at "the end of days," if it is not to intimate that they worshipped at the Divinely appointed season? And when was that? What is signified by "the end of days?" Surely the unprejudiced reader who comes to the Scriptures in childlike simplicity, desiring to learn the mind of God, will form only one conception here. Surely he will naturally say, Why, the end of days must be the end of the week, and that, of course, is the Sabbath. Very ingenious, says the objector; but altogether lacking in proof. Not so, is our reply; for in this article we shall not base our appeal upon anything that is not backed up by clear Scripture proof.


What is meant by "the end of days?" We have suggested above, that it signifies the end of the week, that is, the end of the work-days. How can this be proven? In a very simple way: by an appeal to the context. If the first three chapters of Genesis be read through, it will be found they mention one "end" and one only, and that is in Gen. 2:2. There we read, "And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had made." Thus the only "ending" referred to in the context is the ending of the six days' work. Now, as Scripture ever interprets Scripture, as it defines its terms by the way they are used in other passages, and as the law of the context is what ever fixes the meaning of any given clause, so here in Gen. 4:3; the "end of days" means, and can only mean, the end of the working week; therefore, it was on the Sabbath day, that Cain and Abel, according to Divine appointment, brought their offerings to the Lord as an expression of their worship. We say by Divine appointment, and we appeal to Heb. 11:4 in proof. It was "by faith" that Abel offered unto God, and as faith "cometh by hearing" (Rom. 10:17), Abel must have heard what God required and when He required this formal recognition and worship of Himself.
Here, then, in Gen. 4:3 we have a scripture which proves four things: first, that previously to the days of Cain and Abel a Sabbath had been instituted. Second, that this Sabbath came at the end of a week of work. Third, that it was recognized by the sons of Adam and Eve. Fourth, that it was set apart for sacred use, namely, the worship of God.

This statement is too wide open, explain further please.

The second sentence explained it to which you replied,

No foundation supplied.

What do you mean no foundation was supplied? What was the pattern given to Israel? Work six days and worship on the seventh. Why? Creation!!!! God worked for six days and rested on the seventh. In doing so he blessed it and set it apart for a holy use. This law given to Moses was simply the republication of the law given to Adam.

Interesting facts do not always lead to Biblical theology, your looking at historical information and adding a context that isn't supplied.

If you can, please tell me why Israel kept the weekly Sabbath before the giving of the law at Mt. Sinai.

Of course the pattern of seven was special to the Jews, in addition to the seven day week of six days of work and one day of worship God (Exodus 23; Lev 23-24) added ceremonial sabbaths after the pattern of seven.

Ultimately, you are arguing from silence that Adam-Moses did not keep the weekly sabbath which is really no argument at all. I am arguing that there is a prima facie case in favour of weekly sabbath keeping prior to the law at Sinai. :)

[DeaconDean]

The Sabbath was instituted at creation and we find Israel keeping the Sabbath four chapters (Ex. 16) before they were supposedly told about it (Ex. 20)

Again, the typical argument.

Show me where in Genesis 2:1, that "seventh day" was Saturday, or Monday, or any other day.

According to Strong's, the Hebrew word here is "yowm," and means:


day (as opposed to night)
day (24 hour period)
as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
as a division of time 1b
a working day, a day's journey
days, lifetime (pl.)
time, period (general)
year
temporal referenceshttp://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03117&version=kjv

Show me friend, where any specific day is assigned here.

you just take for granted that seventh day ended on a Saturday. No where in the text does it say that. It only says that after six days, God rested from all that He created.

Why couldn't that first day of creation have started on a Thursday?

As far as Ex. 16 goes, again, your reading what you want into the text. On the sixth day after they started their journey, they were simply supposed to gather double what they did.

Here John Gill comments:

"And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day,.... Of the week, and from the raining of the bread, which was on the first day of the week:

they shall prepare that which they bring in; the Targum of Jonathan adds, to eat on the sabbath day; what they did not consume on the sixth day was to be prepared and reserved for the seventh day; that is, it was to be baked or boiled as they thought fit to have it, or eat it as it was, which they pleased, see Ex 16:23 (http://www.freegrace.net/kjv/Exodus/16.html#23) only one part of it was to be kept till the next day:

and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily: on that day should be rained double what fell on other days, and so twice as much should be gathered up; the reason for which is not here mentioned, but afterwards given; though Moses no doubt was now made acquainted with it, or otherwise he could not have informed the princes and people of it, as he afterwards did, Ex 16:23 (http://www.freegrace.net/kjv/Exodus/16.html#23)."

http://www.freegrace.net/gill/

It cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the first day was Sunday, and the seventh was Saturday.

Just that on the first day of the week, it rained manna, and five days later, they were to gather double.

And again, we have a divine command from God that He would rain manna, and then they were gather double. Where God was preparing them.

And didn't God lead them by a pillar of fire by night, and a cloud, by day? And if the cloud, or pillar of fire didn't move, they didn't move.

You can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, which day, by name, was the first day, and which day was the seventh day.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[DeaconDean]

deleted

[R.J.S]

Show me where in Genesis 2:1, that "seventh day" was Saturday, or Monday, or any other day.

You are missing the point. The point is that of the principle i.e. one day in seven, the seventh day. From this example we know the pattern for us, one day in seven i.e. a weekly sabbath. What day? Well that can change but the principle cannot.

As far as Ex. 16 goes, again, your reading what you want into the text. On the sixth day after they started their journey, they were simply supposed to gather double what they did.

Erm....:scratch: Exodus 16:23 "And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning."

This practice continued for forty years!!!! Forty years before Sinai when you think the law was given :)

Incidently:

We argue further, that the enactment of the Sabbath law does not date from Moses, but was coeval with the human race. It is one of the two first institutions of paradise. The sanctification of the seventh day took place from the very end of the week of creation. (Gen. 2:3.) For whose observance was tile day, then, consecrated or set apart, if not for man’s? Not for God’s; because the glorious paradox is forever true of Him, that His ineffable quiet is as perpetual as His ever active providence. Not surely for the angels’, but for Adam’s. Doubtless Eden witnessed the sacred rest of him and his consort from



"The toil Of their sweet gardening labor, which sufficed To recommend cool zephyr, and made ease More easy, wholesome thirst and appetite More grateful."


And from that time downward, we have indications, brief indeed, but as numerous as we should expect in the brief record of Genesis and Exodus, and sufficient to show that the Sabbath continued to be an institution of the patriarchal religion. A slight probable evidence of this may even be found in the fact, that seven has ever been a sacred and symbolical number, among Patriarchs, Israelites, and Pagans. In Genesis we read of the "seven clean beasts," the "seven well favored," and "seven lean kine," the "seven ears of corn, rank and good." Now there is no natural phenomenon to suggest the number: for no noted heavenly body, or natural element, revolves precisely in seven hours, days, weeks, or months. Whence the peculiar idea everywhere attached to the number, if not from the institution of a week for our first parents? But to proceed to more solid facts: It is at least probable that the "end of days," (Gen. 4:3), rendered in our version, "process of time," at which Cain and Abel offered their sacrifices, was the end of the week, the seventh, or Sabbath day. In Gen. 7:10, we find God Himself observing the weekly interval in the preparations for the flood. We find another clear hint of the observance of the weekly division of time by Noah and his family in their floating prison. (Gen. 8:10-12, The patriarch twice waited a period of seven days to send out his dove. From Gen. 29:27, we learn that it was customary among the patriarchs of Mesopotamia, in the days of Laban, to continue a wedding festival a week; and the very term of service rendered by Jacob for his two wives, shows the use made of the number seven as the customary duration of a contract for domestic servitude. Gen. 50:10, shows us that at the time of Jacob’s death, a week was also the length of the most honorable funeral exercises. In Exod. 12:3-20 we find the first institution of the Passover, when as yet there were no Mosaic institutions. This feast was also appointed to last a week. In Exodus 16:22-30, where we read the first account of the manna, we find the Sabbath institution already in force; and no candid mind will say that this is the history of its first enactment. It is spoken of as a rest with which the people ought to have been familiar. But the people had not yet come to Sinai, and none of its institutions had been given. Here, then, we have the Sabbath’s rest enforced on Israel, before the ceremonial law was set up, and two weekly variations wrought in the standing miracle of the manna, in order to facilitate it. And when at length we come to the formal command of the decalogue, it is expressed in terms which clearly indicate that the Sabbath was an institution already known, of which the obligation was now only re affirmed.
Dabney, R. L. Systematic Theology (http://www.pbministries.org/R.%20L.%20Dabney/Systematic%20Theology/chapter31.htm)

[JM]

Hey RJS, I hope all is well. I know you enjoy quoting so I'll quote a little for you.


by Jeffrey W. Hamilton
The first mention of the Sabbath day appears in Exodus 16. It is true that God rested on the seventh day after creating the world in six days. However, in the nearly 3,000 year record which was given in Genesis there is no mention of mankind observing a Sabbath day. In fact, we find in Exodus 16 that Moses had to explain to the children of Israel exactly what the Sabbath day was and how they were to keep it. Even after the explanation, some of them still violated the law. This was not a continuance of a long time observance, but a brand-new law that many did not understand.
The next mention of the Sabbath comes shortly thereafter in Exodus 20 as a part of the Ten Commandments. Actually, the Ten Commandments were just the beginning of a long series of laws which starts in Exodus 20 and runs through Exodus 23. These were written down by Moses as recorded in Exodus 24:3-4, accepted by the people, who then entered into the covenant with God in Exodus 24:7-8. (See also Hebrews 9:18-20.)

It is important to note that this covenant, including the Ten Commandments, was not given to the whole world. In speaking of the Sabbath in particular, God said it was to be sign between Him and the children of Israel for the duration of their generations (Exodus 31:12-17). God chose Israel alone to receive His laws and he gave them His Sabbaths (Ezekiel 20:5-6, 10-12). Notice that the Israelites did not have the Sabbath before God gave the Sabbaths to them. Perhaps Moses put it the most bluntly in Deuteronomy 4:8 when he introduced the second reading of the law. He said, "Or what great nation is there that has statutes and judgments as righteous as this whole law which I am setting before you today?"

The Sabbath did more than just commemorate God's day of rest after the creation. In Deuteronomy 5:15 Moses stated that it was also a time for the Israelites to remember their slavery in Egypt. No other nation was in bondage in Egypt. To no other nation could this memorial apply.

In fact, the most telling statement showing that the Ten Commandments did not exist before they were delivered by God at Mount Sinai is in Deuteronomy 5:1-5. "Then Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, "Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the ordinances which I am speaking today in your hearing, that you may learn them and observe them carefully. The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. The LORD did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today. The LORD spoke to you face to face at the mountain from the midst of the fire, while I was standing between LORD and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the LORD; for you were afraid because of the fire and did not go up the mountain." Moses then proceeded to recite the Ten Commandments. Moses said that their ancestors did not have this law. Abraham did not have the Ten Commandments. This was something new and unique to the Israelite nation.

The Bible not only records the beginning of the Sabbath and the nation to whom it was given, the Bible also records the ending of the Sabbath. Jeremiah prophesied that the law given at Mount Sinai would end and be replaced by a different Law (Jeremiah 31:31-32). Later, Paul states that Christians have died to the Law (Romans 7:4-7). I would like you to notice what Law Paul to which is referring. He illustrates his argument with the commandment "Thou shalt not covet". This is the tenth commandment in the Ten Commandments. This is the law to which Christians have died. In another letter, Paul said "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day -- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." (Colossians 2:13-17). The festivals, new moon observances, and the Sabbath are all parts of the Law delivered by Moses. These shadowy things were canceled by the death of Jesus upon the cross to be replaced by the reality of Christ's Law.

Paul stated that when a person tries to live by the old Law of Moses, they place themselves under a curse.
For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them." (Galatians 3:10-26)

We learn from Paul that no one is justified by the Law. In fact, those who attempt to live under that Law are under a curse. We also know which Law Paul had in mind because he said it came about 430 years after the last ratification of the promises originally made to Abraham. This refers to the Laws given on Mount Sinai, which include the Ten Commandments. As Christians, we are no longer under the tutelage of the Laws given by God at Mount Sinai.

Paul continues his argument in Galatians 4:21-26
Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

Paul draws an allegory from the events surrounding Hagar and Sarah. Hagar represents those the covenant given at Mount Sinai. Sarah represents the new covenant given by Christ. Paul bluntly tells us to cast out the old covenant represent by the bondwoman Hagar.

But what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman." So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman. (Galatians 4:30-31)

Some ask why nine of the Ten Commandments are kept today, but not the commandment regarding the Sabbath. The answer is very simple. Christ's Law contains commandments similar to the Ten Commandments. For example, lying is wrong because of what Paul recorded in Ephesians 4:25. Adultery is wrong because of the statement in Hebrews 13:4. Idol worship is wrong because of the statement in I Corinthians 10:7. We follow these commandments because they are a part of Christ's new covenant - not because they happened to be in Moses' old covenant. Interestingly, the commandment for observing the Sabbath is the only one of the Ten Commandments which is not found in the new Law. We do not observe the Sabbath because it was not commanded of Christians in Christ's new covenant.


So now I'll move to quote you...


As I pointed out, it does not prove that the weekly Sabbath was kept...


and the sum of your argument...


Ultimately, you are arguing from silence...


The words from Paul in Romans 5:13, 20; Gal. 3:19, 24, 25 clearly state the Law "entered." It had a historical entry point and is associated with a covenant.

Gotta run but I'll be back.

jm

[R.J.S]

This was not a continuance of a long time observance, but a brand-new law that many did not understand.

You are attempting to have your cake and eat it too. First you argue that the Sabbath was specific to Israel and was instituted at Sinai. Now you realise that the Sabbath predates the giving of the law by at least forty years. So your initial assertion has been demonstrated to be false. Israel was not given the sabbath law at Sinai. Fact. When were they given it? Moses says to the congregation "And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said" but when had Jehovah said this? Further is this its institution or is Moses simply reminding the congregation what God had said in ages past concerning the sabbath day?

Well you can neither demonstrate one nor the other. The fact is that Israel kept the Sabbath forty years before the giving of the law.


Let me ask you this question: Can you prove that the weekly sabbath was not kept before Moses?

I honestly think you are missing the wood for the trees.

[R.J.S]

The words from Paul in Romans 5:13, 20; Gal. 3:19, 24, 25 clearly state the Law "entered." It had a historical entry point and is associated with a covenant.

But you should know that the term "law" is used to refer to different things as Dabney notes:

The word "Law," (hr;/T, nomo" ) is employed in the Scripture with a certain latitude of meaning, but always carrying the force of meaning contained in the general idea of a regulative principle. First, it sometimes expresses the whole of Revelation, as in Ps. 1:2. Second, the whole Old Testament, as in John 10:34. Third, frequently the Pentateuch, as in Luke 24:44. Fourth, the preceptive moral law (Prov. 28:4; Rom. 2:14. Fifth, the ceremonial code, as in Heb. 10:1. Sixth, the decalogue, Matt. 22:36-40. Seventh, a ruling power in our nature, as in Rom. 7:23. Eighth, the covenant of works, Rom. 6:14.
Note also in Genesis 26:5 we read "Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws" which are the very terms that are used to describe the law given to Moses.

[JM]

You are attempting to have your cake and eat it too.

I’ve attempted no such thing, I’ve only offered many different reasons why you are incorrect.

Let me ask you this question: Can you prove that the weekly sabbath was not kept before Moses?

I would suggest that instead of insisting we prove what was "not" kept, that you re-think your own fallacious argument which is specifically the argumentum ad ignorantiam.

RJS, you’re falling into a familiar trap, one we both have fallen into in the past and that is a rigid, unbiblical hermeneutic. Just as dispensationalism forces itself upon scripture, so does Reformed Covenant theology. A few quotes from a Reformed Covenant Anglican…just like yourself…

What is covenant theology? The straightforward, if provocative answer to that question is that it is what is nowadays called a hermeneutic -- that is, a way of reading the whole Bible that is itself part of the overall interpretation of the Bible that it undergirds. A successful hermeneutic is a consistent interpretative procedure yielding a consistent understanding of Scripture in turn confirms the propriety of the procedure itself.

It is a hermeneutic that forces itself upon every thoughtful Bible-reader who gets to the place, first, of reading, hearing, and digesting Holy Scripture as didactic instruction given through human agents by God himself, in person; second, of recognizing that what the God who speaks the Scriptures tells us about in their pages is his own sustained sovereign action in creation, providence, and grace; third, of discerning that in our salvation by grace God stands revealed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, executing in tripersonal unity a single cooperative enterprise of raising sinners from the gutter of spiritual destitution to share Christ's glory for ever; and, fourth, of seeing that God-centered thought and life, springing responsively from a God-wrought change of heart that expresses itself spontaneously in grateful praise, is the essence of true knowledge of God. Once Christians have got this far, the covenant theology of the Scriptures is something that they can hardly miss.




“Ultimately, you are arguing [for the Sabbath] from silence [and a Reformed Covenantal hermeneutic]...”

[R.J.S]

I would suggest that instead of insisting we prove what was "not" kept, that you re-think your own fallacious argument which is specifically the argumentum ad ignorantiam.

One problem though Jason, I am not using an argument from ignorance to prove anything.

Your position is that the weekly sabbath was not kept before the giving of the law at Sinai. After I pointed you to Exodus 16 you changed your mind and argued that the weekly sabbath was not kept prior to Exodus 16. What I have asked you to do is simply prove that assertion. This is not an argumentum ad ignorantiam.

If I were to argue that because you cannot demonstrate this therefore the sabbath was kept that would indeed be the aforementioned fallacy but I have not, nor will I, argue any such thing.

So I will ask again. What proof do you have that the weekly sabbath was not kept prior to Exodus 16?

Now recall, your whole argument thus far has been an argumentum ad ignorantiam (we do not see a weekly sabbath being kept therefore the weekly sabbath was not kept) yet I have patiently worked with you without resorting to a cry of logical fallacy. :hug:

[R.J.S]

“Ultimately, you are arguing [for the Sabbath] from silence [and a Reformed Covenantal hermeneutic]...”

I didn't see this...I am doing nothing of the sort, see above post.

I am signing off now as I need a rest from the computer. :wave:

[JM]

As Reformed Covenant theologian John Murray points out:


This administration [Adamic] has often been denoted the Covenant of Works....It is not designated a covenant in Scripture. Hosea 6:7 may be interpreted otherwise and does not provide the basis for such a construction of the Adamic economy....It should never be confused with what the Scripture calls the old covenant or first covenant (cf. Jer. 31:31-34; 2 Cor. 3:14; Heb.8:7,13). The first or old covenant is the Sinaitic. And not only must this confusion in denotation be avoided, but also any attempt to interpret the Mosaic covenant in terms of the Adamic institution. The latter could only apply to the state of innocency, and to Adam alone as a representative head. The view that in the Mosaic covenant there is a repetition of the so-called covenant of works, current among covenant theologians, is a grave misconception and involves an erroneous conception of the Mosaic covenant....[/end]


If the Sabbath is part of the moral Law can you explain why there are different reasons given for the Sabbath?


Exodus 20:8-11 and Duet. 5:12-15


If you claim dynamic equivalent can you show us how do we equate God creating the heavens and earth in six days and resting on the seventh with the deliverance of Israel from Egypt?


I'll be around...see you on Puritan.

jm

[mlqurgw]

First of all that is simply incorrect. In Exodus 16, years before Sinai we read of Israel keeping the Sabbath hence the big todo regarding the gathering of the manna:

Exodus 16:23 "And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning."
From this we have clear evidence of the keeping of the Sabbath prior to the giving of the Law at Mt. Sinai.

But it is also interesting to recall that the Sabbath was given to Adam in the garden and even more interesting when we read the following in Genesis:

Genesis 4:3 "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD." Which I caught and corrected. You will have to show that the Sabbath was given in the Garden. Actually there is no other mention of a Sabbath. I will explain what I mean in the next comment.
The phrase "in process of time" can also be rendered "at the end of days" which possibly refers to the end of seven days, at the end of the week, or on the seventh day, which would be the sabbath day, when Cain and Abel, the sons of Adam, brought their offerings to the Lord. This is not conclusive but ought be borne in mind. Pink, whom you quote in a later post, is reading into the text in this instance according to his Puritan influence. The phrase " end of days" doesn't refer to the Sabbath but to the harvest. This is born out by the fact that Cain brought the fruit of his labor.



In the garden God sets the pattern for our lives. We are to work for six days and do our work and upon the Sabbath we are to worship him. The pattern you mention wasn't instituted until after the Fall. Nor is a Sabbath even intimated in the text concerning the curses uopn Adam and the institution of work. You are reaching for something that isn't there.

It is interesting to note that we find evidence in Scripture of a seven day pattern of weeks:


Genesis 8:10-12 "And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark; And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth. And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more."
God divided up our time into weeks comprising of seven days. This pattern is founded upon God's pattern in creation to which the Law at Mt. Sinai refers back to in the fourth commandment. But then we both know that the giving of the law at Sinai was but the republication of the covenant of works don't we? I am not sure whether we agree on that or not. Perhaps more on this later.



What I have said above hopefully removes this statement demonstrating it to be wrong. The Sabbath was instituted at creation (along with marriage) was kept prior to the giving of the law at Sinai (at the very least by Israel). If Israel kept the sabbath before Exodus 20 then they obviously knew of it before the giving of the law therefore your assertion that "The law of the Sabbath didn't come until Sinai" is simply incorrect. Nowhere in Gen. are we told that Adam or any other kept a Sabbath. We are told that God did at the completion of creation and it is typical only as God didn't need rest. If Sabbath keeping was an essential part of worship then why isn't it mentioned until Exodus 16? The Sabbath enjoined in Exodus 16 is again a simple type and picture of the God providing life and rest in Christ. The manna is Christ the Bread of Life. John 6. In verse 29 of Exodus 16 we find that God gave them the Sabbath at this time, not that they observed it before this time. Here is the first mention of men resting on the Sabbath. If they had observed a Sabbath before this time then why did the rulers come to Moses and ask about gathering twice as much on the 6th day?

[mlqurgw]

Sure thing...I have a final post on page three which you may have missed.See my above post.



Yes. This was in response to my question of whether you keep a Sabbath. I would submit that you don't really. You keep what you call a Sabbath but not according to the Law of the Sabbath.



I keep it in accordance with the summary provided in the Westminster Standards:

This Sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest, all the day, from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments, and recreations, but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.


The fourth commandment requires of all men the sanctifying or keeping holy to God such set times as he has appointed in his Word, expressly one whole day in seven; which was the seventh from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, and the first day of the week ever since, and so to continue to the end of the world; which is the Christian sabbath, and in the New Testament called the Lord’s day.


The sabbath or Lord’s day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day, not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful; and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to betaken up in works of necessity and mercy) in the public and private exercises of God’s worship: and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.


The sins forbidden in the fourth commandment are, all omissions of the duties required, all careless, negligent, and unprofitable performing of them, and being weary of them; all profaning the day by idleness, and doing that which is in itself sinful; and by all needless works, words, and thoughts, about our worldly employments and recreations. According to the Westminster standards the keeping of the Sabbath is not a keeping of the Sabbath. It is keeping the traditions of men. They have removed all that is commanded in Sabbath keeping in the Law that they can't do and thereby destroy the Law of the Sabbath and its principle. You may be able to do what the Westminster requires but not what the law of the Sabbath requires. If you aren't doing what the law of the Sabbath requires then you aren't keeping the Sabbath. To keep a Sabbath you must, according to the Law, observe it on Saturday, do absolutely no work other than that of necessity and mercy, you must have a double sin offering, a double meal offering and a double drink offering. Also you must demand that all Sabbath breakers be executed. If you aren't doing these things you aren't keeping a Sabbath. If Sabbath keeping is a part of the moral law and belivers are still obliged to keep it then it must be done according to the law of the Sabbath.

Depends what you mean by this so do you mind explaining in more detail?See my above statements.

[JM]

Ron, good work so far. RJS, we are in close step for soteriology, I just can't follow your tradition.

j

[DeaconDean]

Erm....:scratch: Exodus 16:23 "And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning."

This practice continued for forty years!!!! Forty years before Sinai when you think the law was given :)


I really think you should go back and read your Bible again. Your somewhat confused. The Hebrews, upon exiting Egypt, did not wander for forty years prior to the giving of the Law on Mt. Sinai.

"And the children of Israel did eat manna forty years, until they came to a land inhabited; they did eat manna, until they came unto the borders of the land of Canaan." -Ex. 16:35 (KJV)

John Gill comments on Ex. 16:35:

"Ver. 35. And the children of Israel did eat manna forty years,.... Wanting thirty days, as Jarchi observes; reckoning from their coming out of Egypt, and the passover they kept there, to their coming to the borders of the land of Canaan to Gilgal, and keeping the passover there, when the manna ceased, were just forty years; but then they had been out of Egypt a month before the manna fell; but the round number is given, as is common: it was on the sixteenth of Ijar, the second month, the manna fell; and it was in the month of Nisan, about the sixteenth or seventeenth of the month, that it ceased, see Jos 5:10

they did eat manna until they came to the borders of the land of Canaan; that is, Gilgal: the Targum of Jonathan is,

"they ate manna forty years in the life of Moses, until they came unto the land of habitation; they ate manna forty days after his death, until they passed over Jordan, and entered the extremities of the land of Canaan:''

http://www.freegrace.net/gill/

Even Matthew Henry's commentary agree's with this:

"God having provided manna to be his people’s food in the wilderness, and to be to them a continual feast, we are here told, 1. How the memory of it was preserved. An omer of this manna was laid up in a golden pot, as we are told (Heb. 9:4), and kept before the testimony, or the ark, when it was afterwards made, v. 32–34. The preservation of this manna from waste and corruption was a standing miracle, and therefore the more proper memorial of this miraculous food. "Posterity shall see the bread,’’ says God, "wherewith I have fed you in the wilderness,’’ see what sort of food it was, and how much each man’s daily proportion of it was, that it may appear they were neither kept to hard fare nor to short allowance, and then judge between God and Israel, whether they had any cause given them to murmur and find fault with their provisions, and whether they and their seed after them had not a great deal of reason gratefully to won God’s goodness to them. Note, Eaten bread must not be forgotten. God’s miracles and mercies are to be had in everlasting remembrance, for our encouragement to trust in him at all times. 2. How the mercy of it was continued as long as they had occasion for it. The manna never ceased till they came to the borders of Canaan, where there was bread enough and to spare, v. 35."

http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/MatthewHenryComplete/mhc-com.cgi?book=ex&chapter=16#Ex16_35 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/MatthewHenryComplete/mhc-com.cgi?book=ex&chapter=16#Ex16_35)

Even Arthur W. Pink agrees with this:

"15. The manna lasted until Canaan was reached. And the children of Israel did eat manna forty years until they came to a land inhabited: they did eat manna until they came unto the borders of the land of Canaan" (v. 35). This tells of what an inexhaustible supply God has for His people. To the end of the wilderness journey the manna continued. And thank God this is true of the spiritual manna. The grass withereth and the flower fadeth, but the Word of the Lord endureth forever. We may be in the "last days" of this age; the "perilous times" may be upon us; but we still have God’s blessed word. May we prize it more highly, read it more carefully, study it more diligently."

Arthur W. Pink, Gleanings in Exodus, Chapter 22, The Manna.

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Gleanings_Exodus/exodus_22.htm


All this is saying is that the whole time Israel was to wander, they did eat manna the whole time. It isn't saying they eat manna for 40 years prior to Mt. Sinai.

"Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:..And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness. After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise." -Num. 14:22-23, 33-34 (KJV)

It wasn't until a later time, that the Hebrews who came out of Egypt were cursed by God and condemned to wander through the wilderness for forty years until all that came out of Egypt had passed away. (cf. Num. 32:11)

Your timeline seems a bit skewed.

According to Eerdmann's Bible Dictionary, Moses led Israel from the city of Rameses, and went east. They journied through "Horeb." Horeb is the name given to the wilderness located in the Suez peninsula."

Eerdmann's Bible Dictionary, Eerdmann's Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Mi., David N. Freeman, Editor, Allen C. Meyers, Associate Editor, Astrid B. Beck, Managing Editor, Wilderness and Mt. Sinai, p. 1227

Once they entered the wilderness of Horeb, Moses said it was only an 11 day journey from Horeb to Mt. Sinai.

"(There are eleven days' journey from Horeb by the way of mount Seir unto Kadeshbarnea.)" -Deut. 1:2 (KJV)

So I really think you need to go back and re-read some sections.

Your timeline is off.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[R.J.S]

You are dodging my point Jason and attemping to produce argument after argument without dealing with what has already been said.

Your first argument was that the weekly sabbath was not kept prior to Moses. Since you have not answered by repeated questioning I will ask again:

What proof do you have to support your contention that the weekly sabbath was not kept prior to Exodus 16?

If the Sabbath is part of the moral Law can you explain why there are different reasons given for the Sabbath?


Exodus 20:8-11 and Duet. 5:12-15


If you claim dynamic equivalent can you show us how do we equate God creating the heavens and earth in six days and resting on the seventh with the deliverance of Israel from Egypt?


I'll be around...see you on Puritan.

[R.J.S]

Hey Ron et al,

Great discussion we are having brethren. Thanks Dean for the correction regarding my mistake concerning the forty-years :hug:

You will have to show that the Sabbath was given in the Garden.

Read continuously between Gen 1 and Gen 2 without the chapter break.

On the sixth day of creation Adam and Eve were created. Then after everything was done regarding creation "God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good" (Gen 1:31). Then what happened? We read that "on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made" and what did he do? Well "God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it". Why did he do this? Well "because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made".

I have seen Gill quoted before (I forget by whom) so let me add something. On this verse he writes that God here "pronounced this day a good and happy day, and "sanctified" or appointed it in his mind to be a day separated from others, for holy service and worship".

This also sets the pattern for our lives. See my previous posts regarding the evidence from Genesis regarding the seven day week.

Actually there is no other mention of a Sabbath.

Which proves nothing and is an argument from silence.

The phrase "end of days" doesn't refer to the Sabbath but to the harvest.

That is your assertion yet you are unable to conclusively prove this nor prove conclusively that it does not refer to the seventh day of the week which is my contention.

The pattern you mention wasn't instituted until after the Fall.

Again, you merely assert this. God gave Adam dominion duties to perform in the Garden, he had to keep it (labour) and by the action of God he sets apart the seventh day.

I will state it again. The law given to Moses was simply a republication of the law given to Adam. All of the laws are moral, the first four containing our duties to God, the latter six our duties to our neighbours.

Nowhere in Gen. are we told that Adam or any other kept a Sabbath.

Nowhere in Genesis are we told that Adam or any other did not keep a Sabbath hence your point is moot. Again, I simply aimed to establish a prima facie case in favour of a weekly sabbath prior to Moses.

If Sabbath keeping was an essential part of worship then why isn't it mentioned until Exodus 16?

The sabbath is a regulated circumstance of worship and we find it mentioned in Genesis 2:2, 3. We also find evidence of a seven day week in existence. We also find that Cain and Abel worshipped God "at the end of days". This is, in my humble opinion, a prima facie case in favour of a weekly sabbath prior to Moses.

If they had observed a Sabbath before this time then why did the rulers come to Moses and ask about gathering twice as much on the 6th day?

Had the nation been fed in this way before? No, this was something new. The people then needed to be told what was going to happen on the sabbath day.

They had, I believe, observed the weekly sabbath before this but never before had they been fed by manna from heaven.

[R.J.S]

According to the Westminster standards the keeping of the Sabbath is not a keeping of the Sabbath.

Ok, I will bite :)

It is keeping the traditions of men.

I will let that slide for now.

To keep a Sabbath you must, according to the Law, observe it on Saturday,

The sabbath is to be kept on the seventh day as the law states: "the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God". This is the moral precept. Its application for Israel was indeed what we call Saturday. The day is movable (by God alone) but the principle is moral and abiding.

do absolutely no work other than that of necessity and mercy,

:thumbsup:

you must have a double sin offering, a double meal offering and a double drink offering.

Which figured what?

Also you must demand that all Sabbath breakers be executed.

When the Church was also the State (Israel being a theocracy) excommunication was through death, under the New Covenant this occurs by simple excommunication/ church discipline.

[R.J.S]

Your timeline is off.

You are indeed correct, my apologies.

[JM]

You are dodging my point Jason and attemping to produce argument after argument without dealing with what has already been said.

Your first argument was that the weekly sabbath was not kept prior to Moses. Since you have not answered by repeated questioning I will ask again:

What proof do you have to support your contention that the weekly sabbath was not kept prior to Exodus 16?

[/font][/size][/font][/font][/font]





[size=3][font=Verdana]

[FONT=&quot]RJS, I'm sorry but you misunderstood what I've posted so far. Without sounding patronizing I couldn’t figure out how a smart guy like yourself missed the point I was trying to make, but after going back over the thread twice I can see you simply have been arguing on too many fronts to see it. I couldn’t find where I provided an argument against Sabbath keeping before the “Tables of the Covenant” entered, but as you can see from my last post, I've provided different reasons for the keeping of the Sabbath. One for creation, the other for deliverance so the question remains: If the Sabbath is part of the moral Law can you explain why there are different reasons given for the Sabbath? Exodus 20:8-11 and Duet. 5:12-15

As the Reformed Presbyterian Walter Chantry demonstrates “these words” [Deut. 5:22] refers to the words just spoken that would mean there is no mention of creation in Deut. 5, just as there is no mention of deliverance from Egypt in Exodus 20.[pages 87,88 of God's Righteous Kingdom, by Walter Chantry, Banner of Truth.] The Bible also states that God did not add anything else to the words just spoken Deut. 5:1-21, the comments from Exodus 20 make it impossible to say the Sabbath as observed by Israel was a creation ordinance or the same “Sabbath” as you suggest. If the Sabbath is apart of the eternal Law then why are there two versions of it? Under the Old Covenant eating pork was immoral because you were breaking God’s commandment against eating it, under the New we can eat pork, but the Sabbath has ceased along with the “tables of the Law” in Christ.

It's not me who's dodging anything. It was a simple misunderstanding that I hope is now cleared up, but you can continue to create a straw man to avoid seeing the difference in reasons behind the Sabbath…command but you’re only fooling yourself.

jm

[R.J.S]

If the Sabbath is part of the moral Law can you explain why there are different reasons given for the Sabbath? Exodus 20:8-11 and Duet. 5:12-15

Hi bro,

Apologies if I have misunderstood you. I will attempt an answer, but remember that two accounts do not negate anything, anymore that two accounts of the Lord's Prayer. Of course one immediate thing to note is that here in Deut we have a sermon from Moses whilst Exodus is the actual thing.

The difference is the following addition:

And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day. (Deu 5:15)
This supplements what has been said before and so Adam Clarke notes:

In this and the latter clause of the preceding verse Moses adds another reason why one day in seven should be sanctified, viz., that the servants might rest, and this is urged upon them on the consideration of their having been servants in the land of Egypt. We see therefore that God had three grand ends in view by appointing a Sabbath.
1. To commemorate the creation.
2. To give a due proportion of rest to man and beast. When in Egypt they had no rest; their cruel task-masters caused them to labor without intermission; now God had given rest, and as he had showed them mercy, he teaches them to show mercy to their servants: Remember that thou wast a servant.
3. To afford peculiar spiritual advantages to the soul, that it might be kept in remembrance of the rest which remains at the right hand of God.
Now this lends itself well because whilst Israel remembered their deliverence from bondage upon the sabbath so we remeber our deliverance on the Lord's day. Matthew Henry:

There is some variation here from that record (Ex. 20), as there is between the Lord's prayer as it is in Mt. 6 and as it is Lu. 11. In both it is more necessary that we tie ourselves to the things than to the words unalterably. 3. The most considerable variation is in the fourth commandment. In Ex. 20 the reason annexed is taken from the creation of the world; here it is taken from their deliverance out of Egypt, because that was typical of our redemption by Jesus Christ, in remembrance of which the Christian sabbath was to be observed: Remember that thou wast a servant, and God brought thee out, Deut 5:15. And Therefore, (1.) "It is fit that thy servants should be favoured by the sabbath-rest; for thou knowest the heart of a servant, and how welcome one day's ease will be after six days' labour." (2.) "It is fit that thy God should be honoured by the sabbath-work, and the religious services of the day, in consideration of the great things he has done for thee." In the resurrection of Christ we were brought into the glorious liberty of the children of God, with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore, by the gospel-edition of the law, we are directed to observe the first day of the week, in remembrance of that glorious work of power and grace.
I do not follow your argument that because the sabbath figured something it was not moral. That was not the only reason for it. Which of the decalogue in your opinion are not moral?

[JM]

Hi bro,

Apologies if I have misunderstood you.

No need.

I will attempt an answer, but remember that two accounts do not negate anything,

If the two accounts are speaking of the same thing, recapitulation for instance, but to ascribe another meaning altogether does in fact negate the Sabbath as being eternal and moral.

anymore that two accounts of the Lord's Prayer.

The Lord’s Prayer is meant for instruction on how to pray, I would agree with you on this point.

Of course one immediate thing to note is that here in Deut we have a sermon from Moses whilst Exodus is the actual thing.

In v. 22 we read, “These words the LORD spake…” so Clarke fails to deal with the difference by claiming Moses added something when the context is the “LORD spake.”

Matthew Henry:

Notes the difference but only continues to hammer down the difference with his Reformed Covenantal hammer.

I do not follow your argument that because the sabbath figured something it was not moral. That was not the only reason for it. Which of the decalogue in your opinion are not moral?

All are moral under the Old Covenant, but only 9 are re-stated under the New.

Peace,

jm

[R.J.S]

If the two accounts are speaking of the same thing, recapitulation for instance, but to ascribe another meaning altogether does in fact negate the Sabbath as being eternal and moral.

Not at all for we ought differentiate between the principle and its administration. The principle is one day in seven but the day itself can change when God changes it.

The reasons Moses provides are carefully crafted and note the flow of the argument:
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
Notice that the flow of argument is concerning rest and that when God is commanding Isreal to give a day of rest to their servants, Israel is reminded that they were once the servants of Egypt.

Calvin (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom04.v.ii.i.html) explains it quite well and which is worth reading:

The object of this Commandment is that believers should exercise themselves in the worship of God; for we know how prone men are to fall into indifference, unless they have some props to lean on or some stimulants to arouse them in maintaining their care and zeal for religion...I do not, however, doubt but that God created the world in six days and rested on the seventh, that He might give a manifestation of the perfect excellency of His works, and thus, proposing Himself as the model for our imitation, He signifies that He calls His own people to the true goal of felicity...When I said that the ordinance of rest was a type of a spiritual and far higher mystery, and hence that this Commandment must be accounted ceremonial, I must not be supposed to mean that it had no other different objects also. And certainly God took the seventh day for His own and hallowed it, when the creation of the world was finished, that He might keep His servants altogether free from every care, for the consideration of the beauty, excellence, and fitness of His works. There is indeed no moment which should be allowed to pass in which we are not attentive to the consideration of the wisdom, power, goodness, and justice of God in His admirable creation and government of the world; but, since our minds are fickle, and apt therefore to be forgetful or distracted, God, in His indulgence providing against our infirmities, separates one day from the rest, and commands that it should be free from all earthly business and cares, so that nothing may stand in the way of that holy occupation. On this ground He did not merely wish that people should rest at home, but that they should meet in the sanctuary, there to engage themselves in prayer and sacrifices, and to make progress in religious knowledge through the interpretation of the Law. In this respect we have an equal necessity for the Sabbath with the ancient people, so that on one day we may be free, and thus the better prepared to learn and to testify our faith. A third object of the Sabbath is also stated by Moses, but an accidental one as it were, viz., that it may be a day of relaxation for servants...From this passage it may be probably conjectured that the hallowing of the Sabbath was prior to the Law; and undoubtedly what Moses has before narrated, that they were forbidden to gather the manna on the seventh day, seems to have had its origin from a well-known and received custom; whilst it is not credible that the Observance of the Sabbath was omitted, when God revealed the rite of sacrifice to the holy Fathers. But what in the depravity of human nature was altogether extinct among heathen nations, and almost obsolete with the race of Abraham, God renewed in His Law: that the Sabbath should be honored by holy and inviolable observance; and this the impure dogs. accounted to be amongst the disgraces of the Jewish nation.

All are moral under the Old Covenant, but only 9 are re-stated under the New.

How can the moral law change when it reflects that which is moral?

Now I must trundle off to do some reading on Library 2.0 :)

[JM]

How can the moral law change when it reflects that which is moral?

That's a great question, but I guess my wording could easy be misunderstood. The Sabbath was agreed upon as binding in the Old Covenant, it in itself is not moral in nature. By covenant it become the moral duty of those who took part in the covenant. From a presuppositional point of view you can't sustain the universal nature of the Sabbath. We can find 9 of the 10 commandments in every society, murder is wrong, lying is wrong, etc. but you can't find examples where working 7 days a week is morally wrong.

Covenant is binding and if you break it you are morally wrong for doing so, example: "If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish." Exodus 21:10 As Gill points out this text means that a man that has two wifes must treat each wife equally. That means the husband must have physical relations with each wife. Under the new covenant this is morally wrong, it's called adultery.

I doubt we'll get anywhere with this RJS so I wish you peace.

Now I must trundle off to do some reading on Library 2.0 :)

Hey, it must be the season for library workers! I've just gone thru a bunch of courses on repairing/restoring archival material.

I'm reading Rush's work called the Institutes of Biblical Law I think you'd enjoy it. To relax and kick back I'm reading The Religion [fiction] about the siege of Malta.

Peace,

jm

[mlqurgw]

Hey Ron et al,

Great discussion we are having brethren. Thanks Dean for the correction regarding my mistake concerning the forty-years :hug: As long as it remains a discussion and not an argument I will continue to participate. In order to keep it amicable and preclude us talking past each other we ought to be clear as to where we each stand on the Law. If you assume certain things and I assume certain things we will neither truly come to understand the position of the other. Is my assumption correct that you hold to the Westminster and London teaching that believers are yet under the Moral Law as a rule of life? If so then we are in disagreement at the very foundation of our arguments. I hold the position that believers are not under the Law in any sense. While I do understand the usefulness of theologians making distinctions in the Law as to moral, ceremonial, civil and dietary I do not find any such distinctions in the Scriptures when it speaks of the Law. When it says the Law it means all of it. Christ is the end, in every sense of the term, of the Law.



Read continuously between Gen 1 and Gen 2 without the chapter break.

On the sixth day of creation Adam and Eve were created. Then after everything was done regarding creation "God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good" (Gen 1:31). Then what happened? We read that "on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made" and what did he do? Well "God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it". Why did he do this? Well "because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made". As I read it and seek to understand it the Lord God needed no rest. He rested and sanctified the day as a type and picture of the rest in Christ and the eternal rest of glory because of the work of Christ in redemption. It seems to me to be primarily to point us to Christ our Sabbath. I think it is possible to read far too much into the text as to the enjoining of a keeping of a Sabbath from it. I do not disagree that we find a pattern of the week here but not a separation of worship to one day. Adam, before the Fall, walked with God daily and worshiped God continually in the Garden. Each day was a day totally consecrated to God. Moreover there were no sacrifices made until after the Fall and no need of holy convocations, which is what the Sabbath is. Lev. 23: 27,28 Here is one of the places I have a problem with the Westminster idea of " good and necessary consequence." Without doubt many things can and ought to be properly deduced from reason concerning the Scriptures. But it is also quite possible to deduce more than is necessary and can lead to all kinds of error.

I have seen Gill quoted before (I forget by whom) so let me add something. On this verse he writes that God here "pronounced this day a good and happy day, and "sanctified" or appointed it in his mind to be a day separated from others, for holy service and worship". It is a good and happy day as it looks forward to Christ and rest in Him. It is separated as a picture of how a believer comes to Christ and the result of faith in Him. The whole of the teaching of the Scriptures concerning a Sabbath is resting from our work. Since the Fall man has sought to work himself into the grace of God as is evident by all the religious practices that have come about. Cain brought the fruit of his labor and expected God to accept it. This is what is meant by the way of Cain in Jude 1:11. Before the Fall there was no need of rest for the daily "work" done by Adam was not yet labor.
As to quoting other men such as Gill; you will find that I rarely do it. I stand on my own though I am grateful for men such as Gill for shaping my thinking.

This also sets the pattern for our lives. See my previous posts regarding the evidence from Genesis regarding the seven day week. I believe your use of the pattern set forth in the Creation account doesn't take into consideration that is was before the Fall. Therefore the enjoining of a Sabbath rest upon Adam in the Garden is pointless. Again, though you claim it is an argument from silence, there is no mention of Sabbath from Adam to Joseph. The silence is deafening. ;) What we see in the Scriptures is a progressive revelation of the purpose of God in Christ. With each step a more clear picture is given. Now when the Law of the Sabbath was given it was as a clearer revelation of Christ. It isn't necessary nor correct to infer something that isn't there.



Which proves nothing and is an argument from silence. Again, the silence is deafening. ;) In fact we are both arguing from silence. You are arguing that the silence isn't silent and so am I. The difference is that you are reading into the silence something you believe to be correct and I am letting the silence speak for itself.



That is your assertion yet you are unable to conclusively prove this nor prove conclusively that it does not refer to the seventh day of the week which is my contention. Nor is your assertion conclusively proven. It is in fact no better than mine and both can be deduced from a logical thought process. The point is that the very existence of my assertion disproves the certainty of yours. Otherwise you are arguing a false dilemma.



Again, you merely assert this. God gave Adam dominion duties to perform in the Garden, he had to keep it (labour) and by the action of God he sets apart the seventh day. And again I assert that what Adam did in the Garden was not yet labor. Labor necessarily implies weariness. I submit that what Adam did in the Garden no more wearied him than what we will do in glory.

I will state it again. The law given to Moses was simply a republication of the law given to Adam. All of the laws are moral, the first four containing our duties to God, the latter six our duties to our neighbours. While I would agree in some sense but the Law by Moses enjoined much more than that given to Adam. Moreover the Law by Moses had a different purpose. While I do believe that the other 6 covenants in the Scriptures are out-workings and revelations of the Everlasting Covenant of Peace I also believe they each had a different purpose and use. I have some doubts that the Mosaic Law was a recapitulation of the Adamic covenant.



Nowhere in Genesis are we told that Adam or any other did not keep a Sabbath hence your point is moot. Again, I simply aimed to establish a prima facie case in favour of a weekly sabbath prior to Moses. And I am attempting to show that your prima facie case is built on inconclusive evidence and is therefore not prima facie. It is prima facie only to the extent it can't be rebutted.



The sabbath is a regulated circumstance of worship I would disagree in the sense it is a literal requirement and regulation for the believer.
and we find it mentioned in Genesis 2:2, 3. We also find evidence of a seven day week in existence. We also find that Cain and Abel worshipped God "at the end of days". This is, in my humble opinion, a prima facie case in favour of a weekly sabbath prior to Moses. And I believe I have shown that it isn't truly prima facie.



Had the nation been fed in this way before? No, this was something new. The people then needed to be told what was going to happen on the sabbath day. Or they needed to be made aware of a Sabbath. :)

They had, I believe, observed the weekly sabbath before this but never before had they been fed by manna from heaven.And I disagree.

[JM]

Here's a little f