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banthis
7th December 2007, 02:04 AM
Let S = the set of all items which can enter the mouth. This set includes {water, food, pork, hair, grass, pepsi, bourbon, smoke}. All of these items can enter the mouth, agreed? Ok.

For all items in set S, upon entering the mouth, none of them can cause any spiritual defilement to a person. That is, inputting any item of set S into the mouth is not a sin.

Proof:

Mat15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

NOT [[that which goes into the mouth]] defiles a man

BUT

[[that which comes out of the mouth]] ----- this defiles a man

And what are the set of things which "come out of the mouth"? Set M, as defined by Lord Jesus Christ the son of God:

Mat15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies

Does this offend you? Why, since Jesus cannot lie?

Mat15:12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
Mat15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Mat15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

He that has ears to hear, let him hear.

Luke6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luke6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Luke6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
Luke6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
Luke6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
Luke6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
Luke6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
Luke6:34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
Luke6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Luke6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Luke6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Luke6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
Luke6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
Luke6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Luke6:41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Luke6:42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.
Luke6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Luke6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
Luke6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Luke6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Luke6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
Luke6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
Luke6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

Peace be with you. Nothing which enters the mouth can cause you to be defiled.

Mat15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

banthis
10th December 2007, 04:38 AM
Don't drink! don't smoke! (don't listen to them...)

jds1977
10th December 2007, 05:39 PM
Banthis, are you trying to justify something?

Abbadon
10th December 2007, 06:44 PM
I'm guessing he's relying on some silly stereotype that Baptists are all tee-totalers or something. Here I am sitting about 30 ft from a bottle of port I plan on opening for my birthday, a bottle of tequila that will be used to make margueritas the next time my family gets some limeade, and a couple of cans of beer my mom (a Baptist minister's daughter) got for my brother. The minister of music at my current church used to be drinking buddies with my parents when we were all at our last church.

I don't know that we'll be getting a response from him, since his name is "ban this."

daveleau
10th December 2007, 09:05 PM
All the churches I have been to in the past 6 years have been teetotaler churches.

I am not one. I understand that teetotaling is a tradition Baptists started around the turn of the century. Did you know that the drink the Quakers drank heavily to maintain health was? Beer. This was not to get drunk (as that is spoken against in Scripture), but because water bore a host of diseases that they did not yet know how to filter. It wasn't for decades until they realized the benefit of beer was in its boiling.

Based on the title, I thought this was going to have something to do with math. :)

banthis
17th December 2007, 05:02 PM
> I thought this was going to have something to do with math.

It does, sorta. Some hypocrites say that there are items which enter the mouth that CAN defile a man (set theory), whereas Jesus says there are no items in that set of (things which can enter the mouth) that can defile you.

There's (obviously) nothing wrong with purity, but purity doesn't come from the don't drink don't smoke mindset. Purity comes from charity.

banthis
17th December 2007, 05:03 PM
And its obvious why I'm getting no "AMENS" from this topic here... ;)

Mat15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Mat15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

jds1977
17th December 2007, 08:00 PM
Purity comes from charity.

Scripture please? or is this another twist?
Also...you failed to quote Mat. 15:20, "These are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man."
The context of the verses you quoted had nothing to do w/ drinking, smoking, etc..it was about eating w/out washing your hands.

Abbadon
17th December 2007, 10:33 PM
And its obvious why I'm getting no "AMENS" from this topic here...

Here I am sitting about 30 ft from a bottle of port I plan on opening for my birthday, a bottle of tequila that will be used to make margueritas the next time my family gets some limeade, and a couple of cans of beer my mom (a Baptist minister's daughter) got for my brother. The minister of music at my current church used to be drinking buddies with my parents when we were all at our last church.

I didn't see any need for an amen.

Hentenza
17th December 2007, 11:01 PM
So much for the bottle of tequila.;)

1 Cor 5:11
11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

daveleau
18th December 2007, 01:41 AM
I would say that I would never drink while in the company of teetotalers, as I would respect their decision. And, I would not call teetotalers hypocrites, as it is a decision. Some believe it comes from Scripture, while others just choose to abstain for other reasons. I will gladly point out the freedom we have in Christ regarding this topic, but would never encourage anyone to drink if they did not want to do so. And, I recognize overindulgence of alcohol (drinking to get buzzed or drunk) as being in the same light as anything else we are directed not to do. So, I will amen the freedom you speak of, but won't go as far to denigrate those who choose not to drink for whatever their reason, even though I do not believe Scripture asks us to be teetotalers. Jesus wasn't.

Abbadon
18th December 2007, 12:48 PM
So much for the bottle of tequila.

1 Cor 5:11
11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

A drunkard doesn't mean "one that occasionally has a drink," a drunkard is an alcoholic or someone darn near that point. I've had a couple of margueritas this year and no other alcohol. Drinking alcohol doesn't automatically mean getting drunk.

aiki
18th December 2007, 07:16 PM
While I wouldn't forbid someone taking an occasional drink of alcohol, I would suggest that the "benefits" of drinking alcohol do not outweigh the risks. As far as I'm concerned, drinking alcohol falls into the "weight" category mentioned in Hebrews 12:1.

Peace to you.

illusionaltears
18th December 2007, 10:27 PM
it is a sin to harm anything in the temple! the temple is your body. if you kill yourself by eating fast food everyday then you've sined! if you have harmed your lungs by smoking then you have sined. if you have harmed yourself by drinking than you have sined!
there is plenty of verses for this but i'm to tired to look them up.

arunma
18th December 2007, 10:57 PM
While I wouldn't forbid someone taking an occasional drink of alcohol, I would suggest that the "benefits" of drinking alcohol do not outweigh the risks. As far as I'm concerned, drinking alcohol falls into the "weight" category mentioned in Hebrews 12:1.

Peace to you.

Actually the Bible seems to mention two jusifiable reasons as to why a person might drink alcohol.
No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments. (1 Timothy 5:23)

You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man's heart. (Psalm 104:14-15)
Now I have the greatest respect for my brothers who are teetotalers. But as it says,
Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. (Romans 14:13-15)
It is not good to drink around certain teetotalers who don't wish for others to drink in their presence. Likewise it isn't good for teetotalers to judge their fellow brethren. I do not say this to justify Christians who drink, but because it is in accordance with Scripture. It is very important that we don't fall into the heresies of legalism or antinomianism.

-~Truth_N_Trust~-
19th December 2007, 06:01 PM
Actually the Bible seems to mention two jusifiable reasons as to why a person might drink alcohol..

What about proverbs 31:6,7
6 Give beer to those who are perishing,
wine to those who are in anguish;
7 let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.

:P :)

Abbadon
19th December 2007, 06:07 PM
There's also Ecclesiastes 2:24, 3:13, 5:18, 8:15, and 9:7. Solomon appeared to have beaten Epicurius the saying "eat, drink, and be merry."

We are neither commanded to drink or abstain, but to avoid drunkenness and legalism.

aiki
20th December 2007, 12:33 AM
Actually the Bible seems to mention two jusifiable reasons as to why a person might drink alcohol.

No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments. (1 Timothy 5:23)

You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man's heart. (Psalm 104:14-15)

As I said, I wouldn't go so far as to forbid someone from drinking occasionally. I know very well what the Bible says on the matter, having had lengthy discussions with Christians about drinking alcohol.

Paul's "medicinal" advice to Timothy is in our time no longer necessary. There are now many non-alcoholic remedies for a weak constitution and drinking water no longer requires fermentation to purify it, so this verse doesn't work well today as a valid Scriptural excuse to drink alcohol.

It is not good to drink around certain teetotalers who don't wish for others to drink in their presence. Likewise it isn't good for teetotalers to judge their fellow brethren. I do not say this to justify Christians who drink, but because it is in accordance with Scripture. It is very important that we don't fall into the heresies of legalism or antinomianism.

Actually, if you look at the whole body of Scripture that speaks to the matter of drinking alcohol, you'll see far more verses warning against it than encouraging it. As I said, if a fellow Christian wants to drink a glass of wine in my presence, okay; but if they want my opinion about doing so, I will tell them that I think drinking alcohol is a foolish practice.

Peace to you.