Who should we believe?

[PrincetonGuy]

Should we believe John MacArthur or should we believe Charles Ryrie? Or should we not believe either one of them?

[daveleau]

We should not put any man's theology above Scripture. Both authors are godly men who have the best intention of following the word of God. But, both men have fallible logic and limited understanding of Scripture, and both make mistakes. This can be said of any author, pastor, or interpreter of the Bible (including ourselves). Take each statement the men make and objectively hold it up to Scripture without the tinted glasses of some religious system, such as Calvinism or Arminianism. There is no such system that has correct Christian theology cornered. We must read a wide gamut of theology, and hold it up to Scripture to discern through prayer and our own study.

So, to answer your question, believe neither unless they follow what is written in the only book that should be believed completely - the Bible.

In Him,
Dave

[Koontzy]

I agree with dave:)

But I would think most baptists would side with Charles since John is a calvinist:)

[Project 86]

I agree with dave:)

But I would think most baptists would side with Charles since John is a calvinist:)

I agree with Dave but I know in our Independant Fundamental Baptist church there probably are an equal amount of people that use the MacArthur Study Bible and the Ryrie Study Bible. I'm not very close to being a 5 point Calvinist but I love almost all of what John writes and preaches. As Dave said though we need to compare everything to scripture in it's proper context.

[rainbowpromises]

I am with Dave as well. Man's spin on the Bible is not what we should be following.

[rainbowpromises]

My grandfather and uncle became ex-Baptists because they wanted to put their own ideas into what a passage meant. Neither one of them could justify their actions against the Bible.

[Hisbygrace]

I agree Dave...Although I do use the Ryrie Bible, I use it in conjuction with the King James Bible. And I pray for understanding and decernment.

[Willo]

Should we believe John MacArthur or should we believe Charles Ryrie? Or should we not believe either one of them?
We believe the Bible!

If John MacArthur disagrees with Scripture, then ignore him. If Ryrie disagrees, then ignore him also.

[rainbowpromises]

I suspect that we have different thought processing methods because you are not making sense to me.

[rainbowpromises]

I am a farmer and have to feed animals, therefore I do not sleep in any morning.

We don't even have the same thought process when it comes to waking hours.

[rainbowpromises]

I am not susceptible to what others have to say. If I was I would be a mess by now. I had a grandfather who spouted Scripture to cover his own sins. I called him on it as young as 9 years old. I was forever getting myself in trouble for disputing authority. Truth is not beyond proof and abstract concepts cannot hold my attention for more than 5 minutes.


While I feed the animals (don't have cows) I will be bubbling with the joy I have most mornings. I sing hymns and talk with my living God while working. :clap:

[Sweet Pea]

We should not put any man's theology above Scripture. Both authors are godly men who have the best intention of following the word of God. But, both men have fallible logic and limited understanding of Scripture, and both make mistakes. This can be said of any author, pastor, or interpreter of the Bible (including ourselves). Take each statement the men make and objectively hold it up to Scripture without the tinted glasses of some religious system, such as Calvinism or Arminianism. There is no such system that has correct Christian theology cornered. We must read a wide gamut of theology, and hold it up to Scripture to discern through prayer and our own study.

So, to answer your question, believe neither unless they follow what is written in the only book that should be believed completely - the Bible.

In Him,
Dave

^QFT

[mlqurgw]

They are both rank Dispensatoionalists and are therefore:

Wrong!

[jds1977]

I say chew up the meat and spit out the bones. You can glean from all kinds of preachers, just be sure to spit out the bad.

[DeaconDean]

They are both rank Dispensatoionalists and are therefore:

Wrong!

Wanna watch the condemnations come towards me? Watch this:

I was given many a year ago, and I still use it today, the First Scofield Reference Bible, KJV. And I was also given last year for Christmas, the Scofield Study Bible, KJV.

Now, lets see how many put downs I get for having these Bibles.

God Bless

Till all are one.

(Also: I am fully aware that Scofield was a Dispensationalist. But I follow God's word, and these are KJV Bibles.)

[aiki]

The fact of the matter is, few Christians know and understand Scripture anywhere near as thoroughly as John MacArthur or Charles Ryrie. For such Bible-illiterate Christians, judging well the doctrine and theology of these two men seems rather like trying to judge a neuro-surgeon's operating technique after having taken a first-aid course. Its been my experience, however, that it is often these ignorant Christians who are the quickest to place themselves as judges over men vastly superior to them in spiritual understanding.

Peace to you.

[R.J.S]

Check this out: http://www.founders.org/ :)

[mlqurgw]

Wanna watch the condemnations come towards me? Watch this:

I was given many a year ago, and I still use it today, the First Scofield Reference Bible, KJV. And I was also given last year for Christmas, the Scofield Study Bible, KJV.

Now, lets see how many put downs I get for having these Bibles.

God Bless

Till all are one.

(Also: I am fully aware that Scofield was a Dispensationalist. But I follow God's word, and these are KJV Bibles.)Yeah, I have Ryrie's "Dispensationalism Today", "Scofield's Notes on the Bible", Clarence Larkin's "Dispensational Truth", and "Humberd's Bible Charts", Walvoord"s "The Rapture Question" and others. I know what they believe and that is why I say they are wrong. :wave:

[mlqurgw]

Check this out: http://www.founders.org/ :)I attended one of the first meetings among area Southern Baptists Founders Conferences several years ago and was shocked at the time how few of these pastors, who all knew each other very well, didn't know that each other held to the Doctrines of Grace. There was a reason that they didn't know. None of those men who came and claimed to beieve the truth of God preached it. They all feared that they would loose thier jobs if they did. A wise pastor once told me that there are many who hold to truth but few whom truth holds.

[MrJim]

Both of those guys are a lot wiser and far more educated than I am, and I'm very sure far more Godly than I am~how can I really judge either? It would take a bit of hubris to say I have better insight than either on scripture, particularly the particulars that cause the divisions...

I'm like DD, I use a Scofield KJV though I'm not dispensationalist at all. But the notes are interesting and tend to look at them like "Well, could work that way"; would probably use a MacArthur or Ryrie the same way...maybe that just makes me a wishy-washy or somethinghttp://bestsmileys.com/clueless/4.gifbut it's probably ok to say "i don't know" once in a while when ya really don't know.

[mlqurgw]

The fact of the matter is, few Christians know and understand Scripture anywhere near as thoroughly as John MacArthur or Charles Ryrie. For such Bible-illiterate Christians, judging well the doctrine and theology of these two men seems rather like trying to judge a neuro-surgeon's operating technique after having taken a first-aid course. Its been my experience, however, that it is often these ignorant Christians who are the quickest to place themselves as judges over men vastly superior to them in spiritual understanding.

Peace to you.That is why those of us who have spent years and years, countless hours upon hours in prayerful study must speak out against those, even the ones who have a correct soteriology such as MacAuther, who hold to a false idea of the meaning of Scripture. Johnny Mac is a Dispensationalist and doesn't try to hide it. He is not a Calvinist as many think. The sad fact is that many, if not most, of the men who have held and still hold a great deal of sway among Baptists today are Dispensational.

[R.J.S]

The fact of the matter is, few Christians know and understand Scripture anywhere near as thoroughly as John MacArthur or Charles Ryrie.

That MacArthur and Ryrie know what Scripture says is beyond question, that they understand what it means it is another thing altogether. Of the two MacArthur is the sounder.

May I suggest a read of this (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/1689lbc/english/1689econtents.htm) :)

[R.J.S]

They are certainly not teaching the truth concerning the whole counsel of God.

[TwistTim]

You call all Dispensationalists "Heretics" and yet, I can see where they come from.... not agreeing with their understanding of it... but Hebrews 1:1-2 Is the Majority of their case.... The Difference is that we understand that Diverse Ways/ Different Times to mean During the Old Testament Period God used Prophets, and conveyed though History His Salvation plan (we see it in Genesis, the Promised seed) They see it also, but see it as forward Faith, or Worked out Faith....

" 1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe."

I've Read one of Scofield's work on Ages.....have a Johnny Mac Bible, and have listened to John Piper and many other Preachers.... in the end though, there is one conclusion to be drawn up.

If one preaches true to what they believe and it is not in conflict with what you know to be truth, it is truth. If one preaches true to what they believe but it is in conflict with Scripture, and you know it, then and only then are they Heretical Preachers.... and you have a huge Burden of Proof to show how false they are, because you are condemning every word that comes out of their mouths.... and are not saying they could be in error over one doctrine only.

Oh and using Hebrews 11 can be tricky, I've found out... .because when you say "see it's all By Faith" they say "yes, yes, (Head nodding) but, they did things by Faith, because that's how their faith worked then" and they are right that they did things, and by faith it was accounted to them.... but it was not the actions, but the faith (Cain vs. Able), but they will overlook that.... so it can be fun.... like I said, tricky, but you can do it if you go long enough into a spiritual debate over it....in the meantime any non-Christians are turned off by the fighting and disunity is sown amongst the Brethren if they are Brethren on the other side of the fence.... as this doesn't seem to be an issue affecting one's salvation they could be....

just my thoughts

[TwistTim]

and to get back to the OP.... We Follow not the teachings of men, but study the word of God for ourselves and as we grow in Understanding and under the teaching of Godly Men we discern truth.... If you want the specific name of a Baptist Pope type figure... you'll find three hundred from 100 people.... most of them outsides the lines on one issue or another.... again, it's a privilege of being Baptist.... we are closer to the truth by studying from many sources and not having one person decide at their whims what truth is.

[MbiaJc]

Should we believe John MacArthur or should we believe Charles Ryrie? Or should we not believe either one of them?

Believe God not man! :wave: :wave: :wave:

[mlqurgw]

You call all Dispensationalists "Heretics" and yet, I can see where they come from.... not agreeing with their understanding of it... but Hebrews 1:1-2 Is the Majority of their case.... The Difference is that we understand that Diverse Ways/ Different Times to mean During the Old Testament Period God used Prophets, and conveyed though History His Salvation plan (we see it in Genesis, the Promised seed) They see it also, but see it as forward Faith, or Worked out Faith....

" 1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe."

I've Read one of Scofield's work on Ages.....have a Johnny Mac Bible, and have listened to John Piper and many other Preachers.... in the end though, there is one conclusion to be drawn up.

If one preaches true to what they believe and it is not in conflict with what you know to be truth, it is truth. If one preaches true to what they believe but it is in conflict with Scripture, and you know it, then and only then are they Heretical Preachers.... and you have a huge Burden of Proof to show how false they are, because you are condemning every word that comes out of their mouths.... and are not saying they could be in error over one doctrine only.

Oh and using Hebrews 11 can be tricky, I've found out... .because when you say "see it's all By Faith" they say "yes, yes, (Head nodding) but, they did things by Faith, because that's how their faith worked then" and they are right that they did things, and by faith it was accounted to them.... but it was not the actions, but the faith (Cain vs. Able), but they will overlook that.... so it can be fun.... like I said, tricky, but you can do it if you go long enough into a spiritual debate over it....in the meantime any non-Christians are turned off by the fighting and disunity is sown amongst the Brethren if they are Brethren on the other side of the fence.... as this doesn't seem to be an issue affecting one's salvation they could be....

just my thoughts I have debated the issue enough over the years I have been here. I no longer need to prove anything. All one need do is search my posts. Nor do I concern myself with unifying with error. I post very little anymore because it is pointless to debate. Usually now I only put in my 2cents worth when I believe something is being overlooked or needs to be said.

[MrJim]

Is this eschatological heresy preventing salvation?

[mlqurgw]

Is this eschatological heresy preventing salvation? Among many other things it is heresy in the fact that it makes eschatology the focus rather than Christ. Enough said.

[FreeinChrist]

CLOSED FOR STAFF REVIEW

I am going to to remind folks of this rule: "Flaming, baiting, trolling, or feeding trolls is not allowed. This also applies to groups. In other words, play nice, don't hurt others, nor call them names."

It is one thing to disagree with a viewpoint - it is another to call them a "heretic".

[FreeinChrist]

[Mod Hat Post]
I'm reopening this thread.

The discussion regarding the use of "heresy" and "heretic" is still going on by site staff. It is agreed however, that just because one person has a different view from another, it does not make that view "heresy". And the use of "heretic" is often flaming.

[FreeinChrist]

Should we believe John MacArthur or should we believe Charles Ryrie? Or should we not believe either one of them?
Perhaps, Princeton Guy, you could enlighten us as to what exactly the difference is between the two men that you are inquiring about.

Is it about Lordship Salvation? As in this article? http://www.pressiechurch.org/Theol_2/Lordship_salvation.htm