I'm writing a book

[Gal328]

And I need to know, Why do you think Jehova's witness is the only way.

[Kazamataz]

Interesting 20 people have viewed your thread yet no one has replied?

Possibly they don't think it's the only way?

I'm not a JW so I have no idea, I just came in here to ask a few questions myself.

Good luck with your book :thumbsup:

[cfmember]

I assume you mean the only way to heaven, or salvation, or escape from condemnation (or as the JW believes, annihilation). I would like an honest answer to, not to argue but to compare the reasons we believe the way we do about important things, asking each other questions. Come on, JW's, please jump in here and talk with us.

[HisdaughterJen]

Lesson 13
How Can You Find the True Religion?
http://www.watchtower.org/images/rq/tri14.gifAre all religions pleasing to God, or is just one? (1)http://www.watchtower.org/images/rq/tri14.gifWhy are there so many religions that claim to be Christian? (2)http://www.watchtower.org/images/rq/tri14.gifHow can you identify true Christians? (3-7)

1. Jesus started one true Christian religion. So today there must be just one body, or group, of true worshipers of Jehovah God. (John 4:23, 24 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Joh','4','23-24');); Ephesians 4:4, 5 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Eph','4','4-5');)) The Bible teaches that only a few people are on the narrow road to life.—Matthew 7:13, 14 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Mt','7','13-14');).
2. The Bible foretold that after the death of the apostles, wrong teachings and unchristian practices would slowly come into the Christian congregation. Men would draw away believers to follow them instead of Christ. (Matthew 7:15 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Mt','7','15');), 21-23 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Mt','7','21-23');); Acts 20:29, 30 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Ac','20','29-30');)) That is why we see so many different religions that claim to be Christian. How can we identify true Christians?
3. The most outstanding mark of true Christians is that they have real love among themselves. (John 13:34, 35 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Joh','13','34-35');)) They are not taught to think that they are better than people of other races or skin color. Neither are they taught to hate people from other countries. (Acts 10:34, 35 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Ac','10','34-35');)) So they do not share in wars. True Christians treat one another as brothers and sisters.—1 John 4:20, 21 (javascript:showCitedScripture('1Jo','4','20-21');).
4. Another mark of true religion is that its members have a deep respect for the Bible. They accept it as the Word of God and believe what it says. (John 17:17 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Joh','17','17');); 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 (javascript:showCitedScripture('2Ti','3','16-17');)) They treat God's Word as being more important than human ideas or customs. (Matthew 15:1-3 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Mt','15','1-3');), 7-9 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Mt','15','7-9');)) They try to live by the Bible in their everyday life. So they do not preach one thing and then practice another.—Titus 1:15, 16 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Tit','1','15-16');).
True Christians love one another, respect the Bible, and preach about God's Kingdom5. The true religion must also honor God's name. (Matthew 6:9 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Mt','6','9');)) Jesus made God's name, Jehovah, known to others. True Christians must do the same. (John 17:6 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Joh','17','6');), 26 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Joh','17','26');); Romans 10:13, 14 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Ro','10','13-14');)) Who are the people in your community that tell others about God's name?
6. True Christians must preach about God's Kingdom. Jesus did so. He always talked about the Kingdom. (Luke 8:1 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Lu','8','1');)) He commanded his disciples to preach this same message in all the earth. (Matthew 24:14 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Mt','24','14');); 28:19, 20 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Mt','28','19-20');)) True Christians believe that only God's Kingdom will bring true peace and security to this earth.—Psalm 146:3-5 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Ps','146','3-5');). 7. Jesus' disciples must be no part of this wicked world. (John 17:16 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Joh','17','16');)) They do not get involved in the world's political affairs and social controversies. They avoid the harmful conduct, practices, and attitudes that are common in the world. (James 1:27 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Jas','1','27');); 4:4 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Jas','4','4');)) Can you identify a religious group in your community that has these marks of true Christianity?

Posted from the Jehovah's Witnesses offical website:
http://www.watchtower.org/e/rq/article_13.htm

[Kazamataz]

Lesson 13
How Can You Find the True Religion?
http://www.watchtower.org/images/rq/tri14.gifAre all religions pleasing to God, or is just one? (1)http://www.watchtower.org/images/rq/tri14.gifWhy are there so many religions that claim to be Christian? (2)http://www.watchtower.org/images/rq/tri14.gifHow can you identify true Christians? (3-7)

1. Jesus started one true Christian religion. So today there must be just one body, or group, of true worshipers of Jehovah God. (John 4:23, 24 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Joh','4','23-24');); Ephesians 4:4, 5 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Eph','4','4-5');)) The Bible teaches that only a few people are on the narrow road to life.—Matthew 7:13, 14 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Mt','7','13-14');).
2. The Bible foretold that after the death of the apostles, wrong teachings and unchristian practices would slowly come into the Christian congregation. Men would draw away believers to follow them instead of Christ. (Matthew 7:15 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Mt','7','15');), 21-23 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Mt','7','21-23');); Acts 20:29, 30 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Ac','20','29-30');)) That is why we see so many different religions that claim to be Christian. How can we identify true Christians?
3. The most outstanding mark of true Christians is that they have real love among themselves. (John 13:34, 35 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Joh','13','34-35');)) They are not taught to think that they are better than people of other races or skin color. Neither are they taught to hate people from other countries. (Acts 10:34, 35 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Ac','10','34-35');)) So they do not share in wars. True Christians treat one another as brothers and sisters.—1 John 4:20, 21 (javascript:showCitedScripture('1Jo','4','20-21');).
4. Another mark of true religion is that its members have a deep respect for the Bible. They accept it as the Word of God and believe what it says. (John 17:17 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Joh','17','17');); 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 (javascript:showCitedScripture('2Ti','3','16-17');)) They treat God's Word as being more important than human ideas or customs. (Matthew 15:1-3 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Mt','15','1-3');), 7-9 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Mt','15','7-9');)) They try to live by the Bible in their everyday life. So they do not preach one thing and then practice another.—Titus 1:15, 16 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Tit','1','15-16');).
True Christians love one another, respect the Bible, and preach about God's Kingdom5. The true religion must also honor God's name. (Matthew 6:9 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Mt','6','9');)) Jesus made God's name, Jehovah, known to others. True Christians must do the same. (John 17:6 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Joh','17','6');), 26 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Joh','17','26');); Romans 10:13, 14 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Ro','10','13-14');)) Who are the people in your community that tell others about God's name?
6. True Christians must preach about God's Kingdom. Jesus did so. He always talked about the Kingdom. (Luke 8:1 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Lu','8','1');)) He commanded his disciples to preach this same message in all the earth. (Matthew 24:14 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Mt','24','14');); 28:19, 20 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Mt','28','19-20');)) True Christians believe that only God's Kingdom will bring true peace and security to this earth.—Psalm 146:3-5 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Ps','146','3-5');). 7. Jesus' disciples must be no part of this wicked world. (John 17:16 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Joh','17','16');)) They do not get involved in the world's political affairs and social controversies. They avoid the harmful conduct, practices, and attitudes that are common in the world. (James 1:27 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Jas','1','27');); 4:4 (javascript:showCitedScripture('Jas','4','4');)) Can you identify a religious group in your community that has these marks of true Christianity?

Posted from the Jehovah's Witnesses offical website:
http://www.watchtower.org/e/rq/article_13.htm
Thanks for sharing this, helps a bit with my own questions in an other thread.

Its also useful stuff to know for all christians, however you do need to look at the bible as a whole and take all passages into account.
So whats written here is a good start.

[HisdaughterJen]

Thanks for sharing this, helps a bit with my own questions in an other thread.

Its also useful stuff to know for all christians, however you do need to look at the bible as a whole and take all passages into account.
So whats written here is a good start.
I'm no longer a Witness but their website can answer a lot of questions about the doctrines of the organization.

[kallenfranchise]

I personally do not think JW is the way. First of all the Bible talks about how we are not suppose to honor anybody or any book that is contrary to the Bible. The New World Translation (which is their Bible) proves my point. I have clearly seen how they've actually took scriptures out and twist it in a sense that it fits their beliefs. There is a difference in clarifying the Bible for better understanding and completely twisting it.

The Watchtower Organization believes that they are the only group that can interpret the Bible.

Thats true in a sense, they are the only group that can interpret THEIR Bible (which happens to be different from ours).

[The Gregorian]

A: I believe "Christianity" is the right way... not one denomination or another. However, I think JWs are the most accurate denomination of Christianity out there that I've found. I don't think THEIR congregation is what matters, only that you make every possible attempt to follow Christ's teachings... one of which specifically being not to divide yourselves into sects. Jesus is the head of the congregation... not any person or group in new york.

However, I don't believe just anything that claims to be "Christian" counts... Why does God not like Satan... because Satan tried to equate himself to God. Why would we put Jesus in Satan's position... just because of some verses where Jesus uses the same type of name as God... we immediately throw him into being "Triune" and equal to God? All of this because of a few similarities and assumptions thereof, when the bible SPECIFICALLY states: "There is for us only ONE God, the Father." (1 corinthians 8:6)... when Jesus himself SPECIFICALLY states that the Father is greater than him... that the Father is HIS God... that he does NOTHING of his own accord... but only what the Father has taught him. Yet, we assume Jesus is wrong, because of some creative interpretations?

Some believe he's physically the same being as God, yet we claim we know better than him when he says "The Father is greater than I." ... we say "no you're wrong...?"

How insulting....

Still, as much as I disagree with some sects of christianity... I think the thing that matters is they're HONESTLY trying to understand the bible and apply it to their lives as best as they can... no one will understand it perfectly... but I believe, with God, it's the attempt that counts... The faith... the honest effort. Doing it "Better" doesn't really matter, because we all fall short... but TRYING is all we can really do.

i.e. No, I don't think "All non-JWs are damned" ... and no, I don't think the JWs have it perfect... if nothing else, the simple fact that it's a sect, divided off from the rest of God's children... that's fleshly thinking right there, therefore all denominations are fundamentally flawed... however, yes, I do think JWs are the most accurate... mostly because we believe what the bible directly says... not concepts that are vaguely implied at best which go completely contrary to logic and direct statements in the bible.... i.e. the trinity.

I personally do not think JW is the way. First of all the Bible talks about how we are not suppose to honor anybody or any book that is contrary to the Bible. The New World Translation (which is their Bible) proves my point.
I'm pretty tired of people claiming this... I've personally given talks with other translations of the bible... When I discuss on here... I usually use non-NWT translations just so that people are more comfortable with it. As with any translation, yes, there are wording differences, but the message is the same.

If you disagree, please point out what you disagree with.

Other than John 1:1... Yes... we say "a god" instead of "God (implying "the God")"... however, the person the word was with was "Ho Theos"... "The God" with a definite article... the person who the word was was "theos" ... no definite article, implying an indefinite article.

I have clearly seen how they've actually took scriptures out and twist it in a sense that it fits their beliefs. There is a difference in clarifying the Bible for better understanding and completely twisting it.
Really? And how do you interpret 1 corinthians 8:6? "There is for us ONE God, the Father" .... does your denomination teach this direct statement? Or do they teach that John 1:1 uses a similar word, therefore implies some unexplainable, counterlogical relationship where each person is individual, yet entirely the same.
The Watchtower Organization believes that they are the only group that can interpret the Bible.
False. They suggest that organized study is helpful... they take the responsibility to put out monthly study guides... but it's the BIBLE that's important, not any watchtower publication. Those publications ARE useful study guides, but in NO way infallible, nor do they claim to be.

Which is another thing people judge them for... When we find out we were mistaken... we correct the mistake... and people freak out on how "JWs CHANGE THEIR TEACHINGS!!!!" Yet, certain churches claim to be, themselves, as infallible as the bible... Catholics believe the pope's word is equal to Gods as he directly speaks FOR God... is that not sickening idolatry?

Yes, the JWs claim that by trying to organize God's people, they fulfil a role listed in the bible as "the faithful and discreet slave" ... which is in my opinion arrogant... but they do NOT claim that their publications are requisite to salvation. Only the bible is.

[HisdaughterJen]

False. They suggest that organized study is helpful... they take the responsibility to put out monthly study guides... but it's the BIBLE that's important, not any watchtower publication. Those publications ARE useful study guides, but in NO way infallible, nor do they claim to be.

Which is another thing people judge them for... When we find out we were mistaken... we correct the mistake... and people freak out on how "JWs CHANGE THEIR TEACHINGS!!!!" Yet, certain churches claim to be, themselves, as infallible as the bible... Catholics believe the pope's word is equal to Gods as he directly speaks FOR God... is that not sickening idolatry?

Yes, the JWs claim that by trying to organize God's people, they fulfil a role listed in the bible as "the faithful and discreet slave" ... which is in my opinion arrogant... but they do NOT claim that their publications are requisite to salvation. Only the bible is.

Below is from the Elder handbook, Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock:


"Jehovah's People
Theocratically organized for
His Name

Jehovah has an earthly household, or organization, to
accomplish his work, an organization that appreciates the
importance of his name and in every way seeks to honor it.
(Acts 15:14; Eph. 2:19; 1 Tim. 3:15; Heb. 3:4-6) As he did
in the case of natural Israel, so today Jehovah brings his
people together as an organization. (Ex. 19:5, 6) They are
directed by a "faithful steward" appointed to administer
organizational matters in accord with God's will. (Luke 12:
42) Ancient Israel served as a pattern of how the worldwide
Christian brotherhood of Jehovah's Witnesses in these last
days would be organized as a God-governed people. (Heb.
10: 1) It requires an orderly arrangement to gather the "great
crowd" out of all nations so that they may declare unitedly:
"Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne,
and to the Lamb." (Rev. 7:9, l0; rs pp. 326-8) Today, this
involves a "stewardship from God," an arrangement adminis-
tered through a "faithful and discreet slave."--Col. 1:25;
Matt. 24:45-47; it-2 p. l035.

Worldwide organization Is God-Governed

Jehovah's Witnesses, a distinct people, are gathered
from all nations.

They are unified as one flock. (John l0:16)
They form an international association of brothers. (1 Pet.
2:17; 5:9)
They have learned to speak the pure language of truth,
thereby calling on the name of Jehovah. (Zeph. 3:9, 13)
They recognize God's authority and his way of doing
things. (Deut. 32:4; Isa. 33:22)

144



The Christian congregation of anointed ones on earth
has been entrusted with a stewardship as God's house-
hold, supported by a great crowd of helpers.

As members of a loving household, they serve together as
a cooperative organization.
Local congregations throughout the earth are not orga-
nized according to democratic principles but are under
God-governed, theocratic control.
All congregations are directed by Christ Jesus under one
stewardship arrangement, or administration. (Heb. 3:6)

At Ephesians 1: 10, "administration" translates the Greek
word oi.ko.no.mi'an, which basically means "household
(organizational) management" of affairs. (w74 l0/15
pp. 616-17; it-1 pp. 48-9)
Congregations receive guidance from Jehovah through
Jesus Christ, his appointed Administrator. (Heb. 1:1,2)
As Jehovah's Chief Servant, Jesus sees to it that justice is
carried out. (Matt. 12: 18)
Jesus ensures that love prevails among all those who
follow his steps closely. (John 15:12, 13; 1 Pet. 2:21)
Holy People Must Be
Guided by God-Given Standards

All members of the household, as well as those who
work closely with it, must be holy. (Eph. 2:19; 1 Pet. 1:
14-16)

Holiness includes cleanness, purity, separateness, both
physically and spiritually.
Jehovah's people must love justice and mercy. (Ps. 33:5;
Jas. 2:13; 3:17)

As Statute-Giver, Jehovah sets righteous standards and,
at times, delegates the authority necessary to enforce
them. (Isa. 33:22)
His laws are stated in our guidebook, the Bible. (2 Tim.
3:16)
UNIT 6 (a) - 145

We must recognize and submit to this theocratic ruler-
ship. (Isa. 2:3)
Administration of laws is entrusted to God's anointed
King. (Isa. 32:1)

Since his invisible enthronement in 1914 C.E., Jesus has
been ruling in the midst of his earthly enemies. (Ps.
110:2; Dan. 7:13, 14)
Invisible control is exercised from heaven.
Use of a visible earthly agency is evidenced by millions of
subjects now submitting to Christ's kingship. (Prov. 14:
28a; Phil. 2:9-11)
Invisible rule requires visible representatives.

The anointed remnant has been entrusted with all of the
Master's belongings. (Luke 12:42-44)
The steward class is faithful in dispensing spiritual food.
Overseers serve as earthly representatives under the direc-
tion of the steward class. (Isa. 32: 1, 2)
Theocratic submission requires recognition of this or-
derly arrangement. (Zech. 8:23)
We are assured of proper guidance through the conclu-
sion of the system of things. (Dan. 12:1; Matt. 28:20)
Governing in Righteousness
Requires Observance of Jehovah's
Laws and Principles

Laws are defined as rules of conduct that are necessary
for good order. (Compare Galatians 6:16.)

Jehovah is a God of order, and his laws are perfect. (Ps.
19:7; 1 Cor. 14:33)
God's laws are based on righteous principles, and they are
enforceable by an organization or an agency.
Principles are settled guidelines based on fundamental
truths. (w57 9/1 p. 524; w52 7/1 p. 407)


146 - "Pay Attenhon to Yourselves and to All the Flock

Example of principles based on a fundamental truth:
Fundamental truth: Jehovah God is the Sovereign Lord
of heaven and earth. (Acts 4:24)
Principles based on this fundamental truth:
We owe Jehovah total obedience in everything.
(1 Sam. 15:22; Jer. 7:23)
When there is a conflict, we must obey God as
Ruler rather than men. (Acts 5:29)
Principles are eternal, whereas rules may apply to limit-
ed times or conditions.

Laws, judicial decisions, and instructions from Jehovah
are transmitted through various levels of household (or-
ganizational ) management. (Eph. 1: l0, Ref. Bi., ftn. )

Jesus Christ, the King and High Priest. (Heb. 3 :1,6)

"The faithful and discreet slave" and its Governing Body
and traveling representatives. (Matt. 24:45-47; Acts 15:
23, 28, 29; 16:4)

Congregation elders. (Heb. 13 :17 )

Husbands, fathers, and mothers. (Prov. 1:8; Eph. 5:22,
23; 6:1, 4) "



Did you catch that organizational arrangement?
God ---> Jesus ---> Governing Body
--->elders --->Husbands/fathers/mothers


Whatever happened to God---> Jesus ----> you and me?

[HisdaughterJen]

The Watchtower is not a "requisite to salvation"? Hmmm....check it out:

From Pay Attention to Yourselves and All the Flock:

"UNIT 2 (b)

Teaching at
Congregation Meetings

The spirituality of the congregation depends greatly on
the quality of teaching at the meetings. The five weekly
meetings form an integral part of our theocratic education.
The brothers come to these meetings expecting to be instruct-
ed in God's Word and encouraged in his work. You have a
great and wonderful privilege to stand before your brothers,
God's flock "in your care," to feed them and build them up.
Do this willingly, with joy and earnestness. ( 1 Pet. 5 :2 ) This
will motivate them to zealous service and increase your
happiness as well.
Teaching at the Watchtower Study

The Watchtower is the ***principal means*** of dispensing spiritual food at the proper time.
The information it contains can greatly help individuals to
establish and maintain a good relationship with Jehovah
and with fellow worshipers.
The spiritual food is needed to nourish the heart.
To teach effectively at the Watchtower Study, you will
need to prepare prayerfully and carefully.
Look up the scriptures and know how they apply.
Take a keen interest in the material and in your brothers;
reach their heart.
Progressively strive to improve your teaching at the
Watchtower Study."



(Underlining and red letters are added by me, the rest was there already)

What ever happened to the Bible being the food or PRINCIPLE MEANS that nourishes the heart?

[HisdaughterJen]

More:

"Means by Which Counsel Is Given

Jehovah gives us much counsel through his written
Word, the Bible.
He instructs his people collectively, giving them practical
counsel on worship. (Heb. l0:25 )
This counsel helps them to maintain a good relation-
ship with him.
The Bible also gives counsel regarding personal conduct,
which helps us individually to have a clean moral stand-
ing. (Eph. 4:17-28)
Counsel is also received through study and meditation,
which enable us to discern the application of principles.
(l Tim.4:15)
"The faithful and discreet slave" is used by Jehovah to
give us good counsel. (Matt. 24:45)
This slave class not only helps us to understand the
meaning of Scripture texts but also gives us valuable
counsel and suggestions, indicating how to apply Bible
principles so as to remain spiritually strong.
Counsel from the faithful slave comes to us through
Bible-based literature published by the Watch Tower Soci-
ety and through congregation meetings.
Helpful counsel is given on the proper mental attitude
toward our field ministry, spiritual advancement, per-
sonal study, cooperating with our brothers, and many
other aspects of our sacred service.
EXAMPLES: (1) Five meetings are outlined for us
each week, and we are encouraged to attend these.
(2) orderly arrangements are made for a local body
of elders to instruct and counsel the congregation
UNIT 4 (b) 83

and to minister to their needs. (3) Our Kingdom
Ministry suggests ways of presenting the good news
to others."

[HisdaughterJen]

Furthermore, questioning beliefs or disagreeing with the "faithful and discreet slave" is "apostasy":

"Apostasy.
Apostasy is a standing away from, a falling away, defec-
tion, rebellion, abandonment; it involves teaching false
doctrines, supporting or promoting false religion and its
holidays or interfaith activities. (Deut. 13:13, 15; Josh.
22:22, ftn.; Acts 21:21, ftn.; 2 Cor. 6:14, 15, 17, 18;
2. John 7, 9, 10; Rev. 18:4)
Those with sincere doubts should be helped, dealt with
mercifully. (Jude 22, 23; w82 9/1 pp. 20-1;w80 8/1
pp. 21-2)
Apostasy includes action taken against true worship of
Jehovah or his established order among his dedicated
people. (Jer. 17:13; 23:15; 28:15, 16; 2 Thess. 2:9, 10)
Persons who deliberately spread (stubbornly hold to and
speak about) teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught
by Jehovah's Witnesses are apostates.
If it is learned that a person has taken up association with
another religious organization, the matter should be inves-
tigated, and if verified, a committee should be formed.
If it is clearly established that the person has joined
another religion and intends to remain with it, the
94
"Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock"


elders would make a brief announcement to the congre-
gation that such- one has disassociated himself. (w86
10/15 p. 31 )
Working secularly for a false religious organization could
put one in a position similar to that of one preaching false
doctrine. (2 Cor. 6:14-16)
Celebrating a false religious holiday would be similar to
performing any other act of false worship. (Jer. 7:16-19)
The Bible condemns the following:
Causing divisions and promoting sects.
This would be deliberate action disrupting the unity
of the congregation or undermining the confidence
of the brothers in Jehovah's arrangement.
It may involve or lead to apostasy. (Rom. 16:
17, 18; Titus 3:10, 11 ) "

[The Gregorian]

Furthermore, questioning beliefs or disagreeing with the "faithful and discreet slave" is "apostasy":

That would be a horribly arrogant thing to say, however I think your misreading exaggerates the situation:

Apostasy includes action taken against true worship of
Jehovah or his established order among his dedicated
people
does not equal
questioning beliefs of the "faithful and discreet slave" is "apostasy":

Yes, it does say persons deliberately spreading teachings contrary to the bible's word as taught there... but the emphasis is on "the bible's word" not the "as taught HERE" part. This statement is exactly like the ToS on these forums... which defines "Christians" as "Followers of the Nicene Creed and Creed of Constantinople" ... anyone who does not take to these additions to the bible are, by this site's definition "Not Christians."

Yes, it's arrogant to define Christianity as "How we understand it" ... but every sect does it... that's the down fall of it being a sect.

The point is, you can't go around teaching that "The Virgin Mary" has authority over God the Father and call that christianity... THAT would be a deliberate false teaching, i.e. apostacy. Just because some people CALL themselves christians doesn't mean it's OK for them to make up whatever anti-biblical ramblings they want. So, as a sort of legal disclaimer, the JWs define apostasy as "deliberately spreading teachings that are against the word of God" ... and as a qualifying factor it's "the word of God as we understand it" ... of course their understandings can be changed if it seems that they're wrong.

So the emphasis isn't on "people who question the WBTS" ... it's "People who deliberately lead people away from the teachings of the bible (as understood by the WBTS)"

... yes... still arrogant... no, not cult material.

[HisdaughterJen]

And that is a perfect example of their arrogance. That sort of quote is an embarrassment to the rest of us. And that is an example of an imperfection which, hopefully, they will correct soon.

However, them making an arrogant claim of "being the true religion" only makes that claim arrogant. It doesn't make other religions who make the same arrogant claims (such as catholicism) true.

The arrogance of a human author does not justify overriding the bible's teachings with the human assumptions of another faith.

Human assumptions are fallible... regardless of who says it. An JW elder, the pope, a bum on the street... if it's their assumption it may or may not be wrong regardless of who says it. This is a concept FAR too few people grasp.
Yes, it's dangerous to claim to be God's mouthpiece through which He feeds mankind. You're right, the Catholic's do it and so do the Mormons. They even use the same scriptures to justify their claim:

1. You can't understand the Bible on your own. You need our interpretation/guidance. (Philip/Ethiopian Eunich)
2. God is not a God of disorder, that's why He has an earthly organization.
3. If you don't follow our rules, you are being disobedient to God Himself and will be shunned/disfellowshipped.

People are lulled into believing that as long as they do what the religion says to do, then they'll get their eternal reward.

So, on judgment day, are Catholics/JW's/Mormons going to look at Jesus and say, "I was a member of your organization/religion so that's why I belong in your Kingdom."?

Mat 7:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&version=NIV#) “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&version=NIV#) Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’
Mat 7:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&version=NIV#) Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’



Jhn 5:39 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&version=NIV#) You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
Jhn 5:40 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&version=NIV#) yet you refuse to come to me to have life.



We, who love God, have an actual relationship with Christ. We hear His voice and converse with Him. (People think that means we pray regularly but it's more than that. We hear God speaking to us individually and have a relationship with Him)

Jhn 10:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=10&version=NIV#) My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
Jhn 10:28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=10&version=NIV#) I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

[Gary51]

I personally do not think JW is the way. First of all the Bible talks about how we are not suppose to honor anybody or any book that is contrary to the Bible. The New World Translation (which is their Bible) proves my point. I have clearly seen how they've actually took scriptures out and twist it in a sense that it fits their beliefs. There is a difference in clarifying the Bible for better understanding and completely twisting it.

The Watchtower Organization believes that they are the only group that can interpret the Bible.

Thats true in a sense, they are the only group that can interpret THEIR Bible (which happens to be different from ours).
But what about the false addition the Catholic Church made in your bible. Namely 1 John 5:7-8.

The NWT does not add or take away... but your bible does.

The JW's are better at interpretaion, and don't feel the need to add to scripture, like the Catholics did.

[HisdaughterJen]

But what about the false addition the Catholic Church made in your bible. Namely 1 John 5:7-8.

The NWT does not add or take away... but your bible does.

The JW's are better at interpretaion, and don't feel the need to add to scripture, like the Catholics did.
The NWT is really very different. Who translated the NWT? What were their names and qualifications? What is different about the NWT? It seems that what has been changed in the NWT lines up with JW doctrine. That's no coincidence.

I once asked two JW ladies (elder's wives who came by the house one Saturday morning) if Enoch died. They said yes, he died. I showed them Hebrews 11:5, even their own Bible:

NIV:

Hbr 11:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=11&version=NIV#) By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.



KJV:

Hbr 11:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=KJV&book=Hbr&chapter=11#) By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.


NWT:

5By faith E´noch was transferred so as not to see death, and he was nowhere to be found because God had transferred him; for before his transference he had the witness that he had pleased God well.



And they said that since it didn't line up with their beliefs, their first reaction was, "The Bible is wrong." When my jaw dropped and my eyes got big, one of them said, "What I meant to say was that there is an error in translation."


They didn't change John 1:1 until 1969 or was it 1985...

[HisdaughterJen]

That would be a horribly arrogant thing to say, however I think your misreading exaggerates the situation:


does not equal


Yes, it does say persons deliberately spreading teachings contrary to the bible's word as taught there... but the emphasis is on "the bible's word" not the "as taught HERE" part. This statement is exactly like the ToS on these forums... which defines "Christians" as "Followers of the Nicene Creed and Creed of Constantinople" ... anyone who does not take to these additions to the bible are, by this site's definition "Not Christians."

Yes, it's arrogant to define Christianity as "How we understand it" ... but every sect does it... that's the down fall of it being a sect.

The point is, you can't go around teaching that "The Virgin Mary" has authority over God the Father and call that christianity... THAT would be a deliberate false teaching, i.e. apostacy. Just because some people CALL themselves christians doesn't mean it's OK for them to make up whatever anti-biblical ramblings they want. So, as a sort of legal disclaimer, the JWs define apostasy as "deliberately spreading teachings that are against the word of God" ... and as a qualifying factor it's "the word of God as we understand it" ... of course their understandings can be changed if it seems that they're wrong.

So the emphasis isn't on "people who question the WBTS" ... it's "People who deliberately lead people away from the teachings of the bible (as understood by the WBTS)"

... yes... still arrogant... no, not cult material.

But when it becomes a controlling cult is when they enforce it by judicial commitee, threats of disassociation, as well as encouraging people to get away from "worldly associations" and the "bad apples" that don't see the Bible the way they teach it.

You cannot become a full-fledged member of Jehovah's Witnesses without being baptized into the religion. Once baptized, you are controlled. They tell you who you can marry, who you can befriend, what to believe, what kinds of jobs and education are appropriate, what you should do to make and keep "Jehovah" happy, as well as a list of rules of "must nots".

Yes, you are right, it is arrogant. God is not. Any earthly organization that claims to be the channel by which God speaks today is a lie and we all should RUN from it.

As far as the Nicene Creed, I don't know much about it. I know what the Bible says though.

[Gary51]

The NWT is really very different. Who translated the NWT? What were their names and qualifications? What is different about the NWT? It seems that what has been changed in the NWT lines up with JW doctrine. That's no coincidence.

I once asked two JW ladies (elder's wives who came by the house one Saturday morning) if Enoch died. They said yes, he died. I showed them Hebrews 11:5, even their own Bible:

NIV:

Hbr 11:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=11&version=NIV#) By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.



KJV:

Hbr 11:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=KJV&book=Hbr&chapter=11#) By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.


NWT:

5By faith E´noch was transferred so as not to see death, and he was nowhere to be found because God had transferred him; for before his transference he had the witness that he had pleased God well.



And they said that since it didn't line up with their beliefs, their first reaction was, "The Bible is wrong." When my jaw dropped and my eyes got big, one of them said, "What I meant to say was that there is an error in translation."


They didn't change John 1:1 until 1969 or was it 1985...
The Concordant Literal New Testament
To The Hebrews

5 By faith Enoch was transferred, so as not to be acquainted with death, and was not found, because God transfers him. For before his transference he is attested to have pleased God well.

But that translation is correct.

I'm not sure what point you what me to understand. Are you saying Enoch did not die?

Because his death is not recorded does not mean he did not die.

[The Gregorian]

The NWT is really very different. Who translated the NWT? What were their names and qualifications?[quote]

Who translated "The Bible in Basic English?" What are their names and qualifications?

Care to give an example on the differences, other than John 1:1?

Care to explain why in most bible's God's name is taken out THOUSANDS of times... yet, in many left in 4 times? Why terms for a "Grave" is translated as "Hell?" Unless you actually think "Sheol" means hell... And why, in other bibles, DO they translate John 1:1 as "and the word was God" ... putting emphasis on the concept that the word was the same definite God as who he was with... when in fact it's the indefinite form of "god" ... not "The God" ... and anyway, it says "and (indefinite) god was the word" ... not the other way around.

I am a person, but not all people are me.

[quote]And they said that since it didn't line up with their beliefs, their first reaction was, "The Bible is wrong."

And of COURSE they were absolutely wrong for saying that.

[HisdaughterJen]

[quote=HisdaughterJen;42240070]The NWT is really very different. Who translated the NWT? What were their names and qualifications?[quote]

Who translated "The Bible in Basic English?" What are their names and qualifications?

Care to give an example on the differences, other than John 1:1?

Care to explain why in most bible's God's name is taken out THOUSANDS of times... yet, in many left in 4 times? Why terms for a "Grave" is translated as "Hell?" Unless you actually think "Sheol" means hell... And why, in other bibles, DO they translate John 1:1 as "and the word was God" ... putting emphasis on the concept that the word was the same definite God as who he was with... when in fact it's the indefinite form of "god" ... not "The God" ... and anyway, it says "and (indefinite) god was the word" ... not the other way around.

I am a person, but not all people are me.



And of COURSE they were absolutely wrong for saying that.
I believe that it is John Wycliff that is credited with the first English translation.

God's name is not "Jehovah". Yahweh is more accurate and even that is man's best guess. All we have is four Hebrew letters. Yod, Heh, Vav, Heh
God's name is hallowed, sacred, and from what I understand, breathed, not pronounced.
IN fact, I would venture to say that those who cling to "Jehovah" as being God's name are very much in error and coming close to idolatry where the mistranslated name is exalted above our Heavenly Father, Himself.

When any person names their god and then defines him and makes everyone consider that name holy and worthy of worship, there's a BIG problem! Stick to the Bible, folks!

And as far as John 1:1 goes, ask yourself, how many gods do we worship? Trust in the Lord.

Regarding "hell", check out this thread: http://christianforums.com/t6671718-pagan-word-hell.html&page=2