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KatyaMartinka
4th December 2007, 09:10 PM
A friend of mine and I were talking and he is interested in learning about the differences between all of the different religions out there. We have been talking about Orthodoxy and then he asked his pastor about his perceptions of Orthodoxy and what I am about to post is his pastor's reply. I have not replied to his email yet because I wanted some advice on how to counter some of his "off" statements in his email. Any hlp you can give me in this response is greatly appreciated so that I can bring to him the Truth if the Faith of the Church and do it in a manner that IS the belief of the Church. Thanks in advance.

The Eastern Orthodox Church is not a single church but rather a family of 13 self-governing bodies, denominated by the nation in which they are located (e.g., the Greek Orthodox Church, Russian Orthodox Church, etc.). They are united in their understanding of the sacraments, doctrine, liturgy, and church government, but each administers its own affairs. The head of each Orthodox church is called a "patriarch" or "metropolitan." The patriarch of Constantinople (Istanbul, Turkey) is considered the "ecumenical," or universal, patriarch. He is the closest thing to a counterpart to the Pope in the Roman Catholic Church. Unlike the Pope, who is known as VICARIUS FILIUS DEI (the vicar of the Son of God), the bishop of Constantinople is known as PRIMUS INTER PARES (the first amongst equals). He enjoys special honor, but he has no power to interfere with the 12 other Orthodox communions.

The Orthodox Church claims to be the one true church of Christ, and seeks to trace its origin back to the original apostles through an unbroken chain of apostolic succession. Orthodox thinkers debate the spiritual status of Roman Catholics and Protestants, and a few still consider them heretics. Like Catholics and Protestants, however, Orthodox believers affirm the Trinity, the Bible as the Word of God, Jesus as God the Son, and many other Biblical doctrines. However, in doctrine, they have much more in common with Roman Catholics than they do Protestant believers.

The doctrine of justification by faith is virtually absent from the history and theology of Orthodoxy. Rather, Orthodoxy emphasizes theosis (literally, "divinization"), the gradual process by which Christians become more and more like Christ. What many in the Orthodox tradition fail to understand is that “divinization” is the progressive result of salvation…not a requirement for salvation itself. Other Orthodox distinctives that are in conflict with the Bible include:

The equal authority of church tradition and Scripture
Discouragement of individuals interpreting the Bible apart from tradition
The perpetual virginity of Mary
Prayer for the dead
Baptism of infants w/o reference to individual responsibility and faith
The possibility of salvation after death
The possibility of losing salvation

While the Eastern Orthodox Church has claimed some of the church's great voices, and while there are many of the Orthodox tradition that have a genuine salvation relationship with Jesus Christ; the Orthodox church itself do not speak with a clear message that can be harmonized with the Biblical Gospel of Christ. The clarion call of the Reformers for "Scripture Alone, Faith Alone, Grace Alone, and Christ Alone" is missing in this branch of Christendom, and that is too precious a treasure to do without.

A key to remember is that In the 11th century a Great Schism took place between Rome and Constantinople, which led to separation of the Church of the West (the Roman Catholic Church), and the Eastern Orthodox Church. The Protestant faith eventaully arose from an attempt to fix the corruption of the Roman Catholic Church in the early 1500's. Both Rome and the Eastern Orthodox church saw themsleves as the "true church"... meaning that they could trace their heritage directly back to the apostles themselves.

nikostheater
4th December 2007, 09:54 PM
I don't see how he can talk about a conflict between the bible alone and the Holy Tradition...the Bible itself is a child of Tradition!
It is because of Tradition we have the Bible,the Nicene Creed etc as it is today!
Of course the Orthodox Church discourages the individuals to interpret the Bible without Tradition!Look of the shame of the hundrends of the different Protestant denominations!
Gasp,i didn't knew that there were christians that they think that the Holy Mother of God was not virgin!Sad...
Prayer for the dead...God id God of Abraham,Isaac,Jacob...he is not a God of the dead but the God of the living!Jesus Himself told that!
Baptism of infants...we he is trying to say that saving the soul of an infant is a bad thing?:scratch: :scratch:

We are in God's mercy,so if he want's to save someone after death,who we are to deny one man's salvation?We pray for the salvation of the dead also and rightfully so.
The possibility of losing salvation...well,salvation is a process,not a state.We are praying and struggling every day for salvation,but we (hopefully ) will be saved by God's mercy and grace.


Pfff,i cannot understand Protestants,really...
Maybe because i grew up crandle Orthodox and their views are alien to me....forgive me...

Yeznik
4th December 2007, 09:57 PM
Will the members of TAW permit me to answer? If so, I will continue.

KenBrauckmann
4th December 2007, 10:07 PM
Suggestion: Have the Pastor read Gallatin's "Thirsting for God in a Land of Shallow Wells. He treats many of those pooints - and he grew up Protestant!!

(I am reading it right now and it answers many of those points.)

Ken

Orthosdoxa
4th December 2007, 10:10 PM
The Eastern Orthodox Church is not a single church but rather a family of 13 self-governing bodies, denominated by the nation in which they are located (e.g., the Greek Orthodox Church, Russian Orthodox Church, etc.). They are united in their understanding of the sacraments, doctrine, liturgy, and church government, but each administers its own affairs. The head of each Orthodox church is called a "patriarch" or "metropolitan." The patriarch of Constantinople (Istanbul, Turkey) is considered the "ecumenical," or universal, patriarch. He is the closest thing to a counterpart to the Pope in the Roman Catholic Church. Unlike the Pope, who is known as VICARIUS FILIUS DEI (the vicar of the Son of God), the bishop of Constantinople is known as PRIMUS INTER PARES (the first amongst equals). He enjoys special honor, but he has no power to interfere with the 12 other Orthodox communions.

The Orthodox Church claims to be the one true church of Christ, and seeks to trace its origin back to the original apostles through an unbroken chain of apostolic succession. Orthodox thinkers debate the spiritual status of Roman Catholics and Protestants, and a few still consider them heretics. Like Catholics and Protestants, however, Orthodox believers affirm the Trinity, the Bible as the Word of God, Jesus as God the Son, and many other Biblical doctrines. However, in doctrine, they have much more in common with Roman Catholics than they do Protestant believers.


I would mostly agree with this, though I would change the last sentence to read that the Roman Catholics and Protestants have more in common with each other than either of them do with us. It is true some of the exteriors resemble some Roman practices, but exteriors are not the same as doctrine.

The doctrine of justification by faith is virtually absent from the history and theology of Orthodoxy. Rather, Orthodoxy emphasizes theosis (literally, "divinization"), the gradual process by which Christians become more and more like Christ. What many in the Orthodox tradition fail to understand is that “divinization” is the progressive result of salvation…not a requirement for salvation itself. Other Orthodox distinctives that are in conflict with the Bible include:

The equal authority of church tradition and Scripture
Discouragement of individuals interpreting the Bible apart from tradition
The perpetual virginity of Mary
Prayer for the dead
Baptism of infants w/o reference to individual responsibility and faith
The possibility of salvation after death
The possibility of losing salvation


Here is where he's starting to lose some of the good start he began with. I don't know exactly what he's trying to say with that first sentence, because that can vary within Protestant traditions. There has never been any question of how important faith is, but I'm going to take issue of how it's worded to begin with. It is not faith that saves us - it is GRACE, and that grace is received through faith working in love, in a syergistic relationship.

The thing about the infants is actually an outright lie - if a child is baptized but grows up to reject Christ, his baptism is for nothing. I don't know where he got the idea that no individual responsibility is required. :doh:

The possiblity of salvation after death is a mystery, not a dogma. It's simply one more way we refuse to put limits on God.

Furthermore, with his statements that these "conflict with the Bible" - a more correct way of stating that would be "these issues conflict with MY UNDERSTANDING of the Bible". I strongly recommend he read this (http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/sola_scriptura_john_whiteford.htm)article.

The clarion call of the Reformers for "Scripture Alone, Faith Alone, Grace Alone, and Christ Alone" is missing in this branch of Christendom, and that is too precious a treasure to do without.

This made me chuckle. Where is this "clarion call" found in the early church? The answer is most decisively that IT IS NOT. And if a doctrine takes 1500 years to show up... then that doctrine is clearly false, unless one wants to believe that Christ is a failure and a liar. He said he would lead the Church into all Truth - not, "I'll just sit back and do nothing, and 1500 years later I will lead them into all Truth."

A key to remember is that In the 11th century a Great Schism took place between Rome and Constantinople, which led to separation of the Church of the West (the Roman Catholic Church), and the Eastern Orthodox Church. The Protestant faith eventaully arose from an attempt to fix the corruption of the Roman Catholic Church in the early 1500's. Both Rome and the Eastern Orthodox church saw themsleves as the "true church"... meaning that they could trace their heritage directly back to the apostles themselves.

And shouldn't this attempt to fix what was wrong have gone back to the ORIGINAL, rather than inventing brand new doctrines, never before seen?

I commend the pastor overall - he has a clearer understanding of Orthodoxy than most Protestants I've seen, but clearly not entirely.

Hope this helps a bit.

nikostheater
4th December 2007, 10:47 PM
Will the members of TAW permit me to answer? If so, I will continue.
Of course you can answer!
You are welcome here.
:)

nikostheater
4th December 2007, 10:48 PM
Orthosdoxa,excellent post!

buzuxi02
5th December 2007, 01:13 AM
Yeznik you can answer.


Now for my two cents"

Scripture is Tradition, just not all of it. Protestants have to realize that scripture is the core of tradition. I can go on and show the clear biblical teaching compared with
his man-made tradition. Heterodoxy contrasted with the right belief of the Orthodox bible opens many eyes. Ive already dealt with infant baptism in another thread not to long ago. ill have to find it

Many here will post excellent answers.

KatyaMartinka
6th December 2007, 05:05 PM
thanks for all your answers so far. I will compile an email-response soon to this person and his pastor. :)

Mary of Bethany
6th December 2007, 05:08 PM
His response is actually just pulled from a website. I have seen it, but I can't remember where. I'll see if I can find it again.

Mary

KatyaMartinka
6th December 2007, 05:12 PM
it was taken from gotquestions.org

Mary of Bethany
6th December 2007, 05:14 PM
Ah, yes - here it is:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Eastern-Orthodox-church.html

Here is what they say about themselves:

Mission Statement of Got Questions Ministries:
"Got Questions Ministries seeks to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ by providing Biblical, applicable, and timely answers to spiritually-related questions through an internet presence."


GotQuestions.org is a volunteer ministry of dedicated and trained servants who have a desire to assist others in their understanding of God, Scripture, salvation, and other spiritual topics. We are Christian, Protestant, conservative, evangelical, fundamental, and non-denominational. We view ourselves as a para-church ministry, coming alongside the church to help people find answers to their spiritually related questions.


Edited: oops - I see you knew that.

KatyaMartinka
6th December 2007, 05:19 PM
what they say about themselves......

ah yes, but they don't claim to be history buffs at all, lol, which explains why they don't REALLY understand what the Orthodox Church is all about. it seems thay have some good info, but are looking at it from the outside.

Protoevangel
6th December 2007, 05:41 PM
http://www.gotquestions.org/Eastern-Orthodox-church.html

EDIT: Talk about being slow at the draw! :blush: ^_^