Head covering

[Natalia.V]

Do the women at your church where a head covering?

[Shubunkin]

Some do, and some don't.

[Tsarina]

Do the women at your church where a head covering?

99% of women at my parish have their head covered. :thumbsup:
All Orthodox women should cover their head in Church.

[KatyaMartinka]

at the parish I attend with my husband, hardly ANY of the women wear head coverings. I was a little surprised that more do not.

[All4Christ]

Tsarina and Katya - I almost got the two of you mixed up with your outfits being similar! Very pretty dresses though :-) for both of you

[the_Abbot]

They almost look like twins

[KatyaMartinka]

we do, don't we! except Tsarina has a tan, and I do not, lol.

[flod logic]

No one does at my parish that I've noticed.

[xenia]

Most of the women / girls at my parish wear head coverings. A few don't... I never asked them why as I figger it's between them and God but I've always been curious- no, make that nosy- as to why they don't. At the Russian church we visited ocassionally, it's about half and half.

At the parish I attended when I first converted, no one wore a head covering unless we were visiting a monastery.

[Mary of Bethany]

I'd say it's about 75% do, 25% don't at my parish.

Mary

[Matrona]

Well, when I'm there... there's one. :D

I get made fun of sometimes for being the only one, but at least I don't confuse the angels. ^_^

[nikostheater]

Here in Greece mostly old women cover their heads now.At monasteries though they do cover their heads,is the rule in monasteries

[Kristos]

Do the women at your church where a head covering?
Only a few

[SeraphimSarov]

A few do at my parish. Khouria doesn't so I guess few others feel compelled to, either. :-P

[Tsarina]

Tsarina and Katya - I almost got the two of you mixed up with your outfits being similar! Very pretty dresses though :-) for both of you

LoL.. i didn't notice that until just now.

Hey Katya, we're twins! :D

[Monica, child of God]

99% at the ROCOR mission. ~60% at the OCA cathedral.

M.

[Rowan]

One or two.

[Akathist]

I'd say it's about 75% do, 25% don't at my parish.

Mary

About the same stats for my church too.

The ones who don't tend to be older converts (women who married Orthodox men and converted and are in their 50's to 60's.) We have a couple younger women who don't too. I never ask why.

In one of the other parishes near me no one wears a headcovering. I don't like to visit there because I get to thinking about how I am not wearing my headcovering and I feel so naked without it. But if I wear it then I am thinking about how others might be upset that I wore it.

I like it best in my parish were I don't have to think about the headcovering as it is the normal thing.

[Prawnik]

Pretty much all in Russia or Ukraine. But everybody here takes it as a given, sort like how men would not wear hats in church.

[-Kyriaki-]

Only a few, though in my Antiochian church a lot cover their head as they line up for communion - there's a pile of spares on the front pew, specifically for that purpose.

I would, but I feel really self conscious doing it. On the upside, I'm going to a Liturgy organised by the serbian archdiocese on the weekend and here they often do wear headcoverings, so I can wear a scarf and noone will look at me weird :)

[Chocolatesa]

I'm going back and forth between 2 churches atm while I'm a catechumen to decide which one to stay in after I get baptized. In one church I think there's one mother with her girls that have their head covered, the rest no. At the other church nobody does that I've seen, except for me.

[Xpycoctomos]

Almost no one does at our Church. It's kind of sad, but not tragic. My wife would like to but she doesn't like to draw attention to herself. i think it would harm her more than do good.

I think nowdays scarf wearing is just one of those things that clicks with a parish or not.

I wish it were 50 50 at my parish. That way no one felt that it were necessary, but people could do so without worrying if others think they are better than them for wearing it.

matrona, keep up the good fight... one day, someone else who wouldn't have otherwise will decide to don the headscarf because they won't be the only one.

[Xpycoctomos]

That's a good comparison. Thanks.

[Matrona]

matrona, keep up the good fight... one day, someone else who wouldn't have otherwise will decide to don the headscarf because they won't be the only one.

Thank you. :)

It was not easy for me to decide to start wearing one, especially since I'm not the type to like drawing attention to myself. But after the first few weeks of awkwardness, I got used to it, and I wasn't being stared at anymore. And sometimes, on few and far between occasions, I see other women wear something over their hair as well so I'm not always completely alone. I like to hope that they might try it more often if I keep at it. As for the people who have a problem with it, I figure that it's their problem that they need to work through on their own. After all, if I were feeding the homeless and it made someone else feel judged and uncomfortable, should I stop feeding the homeless?

And I also regularly visit other local churches where headcovering is more popular, which is also nice.

[Natalia.V]

Thank you for the replies :) I feel compelled to wear a head scarf. But one of the churches I attend, the women do not wear them, so it is a little akward. The other church, though, all of the women wear them...so it's nice.

[JuvenalyMartinka]

Is it wrong to maybe assume that the Matushka/Khouria/ Presvytera/Papadiya is the "role model" for the parish and that if she encourages the head coverings then more women are apt to start wearing? This is what I have seen, but it is not always the case.

[Akathist]

Is it wrong to maybe assume that the Matushka/Khouria/ Presvytera/Papadiya is the "role model" for the parish and that if she encourages the head coverings then more women are apt to start wearing? This is what I have seen, but it is not always the case.


I think you make a good point here. In my parish both Matushka's wear a headscarf. In the one I visit, the Matushka does not and essentially no one else does either.

I feel naked in church without a headscarf. I also feel that wearing it helps me concentrate on the service. The only exception is the one time I wore the headscarf to the parish were no one else did. I only did this once and it was very distracted to me as I felt as if others were looking at me.

It was wrong of me to let myself get distracted over a thing like a headscarf. I should have said that above and realized I didn't.

I stopped wearing a headscarf when visiting that other parish because I let it distract me from the service. I have thought about switching to that parish because of that weirdo who stalk(s/ed) me. If I did, I think I would do as Matrona and wear it anyway and work on my problem with being distracted.

On another forum board I was treated very badly by Orthodox women about headscarves. They told me that it is judgemental of me to wear a headscarf as it means I am judging others who do not.

I don't feel that way at all. I see women not wearing the headscarf and don't really think about it. I guess it is hard to believe I don't think about it but honestly, I might think something like "her hair is nice that way" or I might think "I must talk with her at coffee hour and get her recipe for what she brought last week for food". But I don't think about her lack of a scarf.

And truth is, I should not be looking at any one else anyway. It is something I need to work on because being distracted during services is not good for me.

[Dorothea]

About 5% of the women at my church cover their heads. The majority don't, including me. I wasn't taught to wear one. My mom never wore one, but I think my yiayia did. I'm wondering if it's an ethnic thing too, because I've never seen the Lebanese women at the church my sister goes to wear them. Hardly any at the GOC's I attend. I'm thinking it's more Eastern Block/Russian (however it's titled).

[Tsarina]

About 5% of the women at my church cover their heads. The majority don't, including me. I wasn't taught to wear one. My mom never wore one, but I think my yiayia did. I'm wondering if it's an ethnic thing too, because I've never seen the Lebanese women at the church my sister goes to wear them. Hardly any at the GOC's I attend. I'm thinking it's more Eastern Block/Russian (however it's titled).

St. Paul speaks about women covering their heads in the Bible. The Holy-Fathers also speak about it and say it is a disgrace for women to have their head uncovered. So, it's best to at least cover the head in Church.

No, wearing a head-covering is not an ethnic thing. The Russians do it because they were able to keep tradition, whereas the Arabs lost tradition in their country which reflects here in North America. A lot of Arab Orthodox Churches are even communion Catholics back home, truly not what the Orthodox Church should be doing. On the other hand, Greek parishes in North America have lost little traditions like wearing a head-covering as well, which is sad. Perhaps to truly see what the Fathers say about this matter, look into it.. it's really interesting. :)

I can try finding some head-covering quotes for you from the Holy Fathers.. if you want?

[Tsarina]

Is it wrong to maybe assume that the Matushka/Khouria/ Presvytera/Papadiya is the "role model" for the parish and that if she encourages the head coverings then more women are apt to start wearing? This is what I have seen, but it is not always the case.

In the epistles of elder Paisios of the Holy Mountain, he states that a Matushka should be the ultimate example of modesty and should never be seen without wearing modest clothes including that head-scarf.

I think Matushka's can be a good role-model.. however that doesn't mean people in the parish will start wearing headscarf.. but maybe they will after seeing her and questioning it, and then later realizing that they are suppose to be wearing one. That's what happened to me. :P

[KatyaMartinka]

St. Paul speaks about women covering their heads in the Bible. The Holy-Fathers also speak about it and say it is a disgrace for women to have their head uncovered. So, it's best to at least cover the head in Church.

I can try finding some head-covering quotes for you from the Holy Fathers.. if you want?


why is it then that more Orthdox women do NOT wear head-coverings, if it is so taught and understood that it should be that way?
as for me, coming from a non-denom Protestant background, of course it isn't taught in that church, so i've never fully understood the reasons behind it, when I first started looking into the Orthodox Church, I saw head-covering as legalistic and felt as though it was something taught to women because they were considered "lower" than men.
I still do not fully understand it......

[Mary of Bethany]

I think perhaps the problem is that women have not been taught the reasons from Scripture, and have seen it as a cultural thing that was done in the old country but doesn't apply to them as women in modern American society, or as legalistic or whatever. And priests may hesitate to speak about things that many people believe fall under "personal piety".

Our priest has never mentioned it in a sermon, and I don't know what he'd say if a woman asked him about it. I think Juvenaly was right about the priest's wife setting the tone for a parish in this regard.

Just a thought. May be all wrong. :)

Mary

[KatyaMartinka]

I think perhaps the problem is that women have not been taught the reasons from Scripture, and have seen it as a cultural thing that was done in the old country but doesn't apply to them as women in modern American society, or as legalistic or whatever. And priests may hesitate to speak about things that many people believe fall under "personal piety".

Our priest has never mentioned it in a sermon, and I don't know what he'd say if a woman asked him about it. I think Juvenaly was right about the priest's wife setting the tone for a parish in this regard.

Just a thought. May be all wrong. :)

Mary

that's one thing that I have been told as i've been inquiring and learning, is that it's a matter of "personal piety" and not something that HAS to be done.
the very first Orthodox service I went to with my husband, when we were still in AZ, most, if not all, of the women there did cover their heads (it was a small parish), but as I was not Orthodox, I was not expected to do so. I still felt a little odd being there, and I also was NOT given a very warm welcome. That, along with some other things, made it a not-so-good experience for my first time.
i'm really glad we've found a good parish here in town, but only a couple of the older women there ever wear head-coverings, and the priest's wife never does.

[Orthosdoxa]

I personally believe women should wear head coverings, but I don't always. By the time I get the babies fed, changed, dressed, found something to wear for myself, gotten ready, fixed my hair, I look at the clock and EEK! I've only got 10 minutes to get there and am zooming out of the house with 55 pounds of babies in my arms (as much as you can zoom under those circumstances). It's poor planning, not a desire to not wear a covering.

Plus - oftentimes it just results in sheer frustration, because my children spend the entire DL trying to rip it off my head, often taking some of my hair in the process.

So - you don't always know why people don't. It's not always simply the desire to be uncovered. I need to get better about it, and hopefully the babies are getting old enough that it will become less problematic.

The scarf is an outward sign, and not everyone does it. But how many other things do people not do, that you CAN'T see? You don't know who says their prayers or reads the Scriptures every day, as we should. We should think of these rules as important to obey for ourselves, but not something we judge in other people.

[Philothei]

Since this is a custom like many others I would suggest for you to do what your feel confortable .... if matuska does not cover that means that your community and priest is not "into it" that does not mean that they are wrong or right that means that they do not make it priority.

As far as the historicity of the head covering it is true that it does have to do with women covering as it is mentioned in the Bible. Whether someone wants to practice it or not though I think in our days it is a personal piety and decision. Of course I also think that "personal piety" is to do full prostrations, kissing the hand of the priest, Bishops so on or women not- wearing -pants in the Church etc. not all of them are followed ... and that means that it depends on the 'cultural" ethos expressed in the communities. I have noticed numerous faithful not even doing their cross before recieving communion... etc. Orthodoxy does not stand for "uniformity" in 'personal piety' rather has a spectrum of it.

God bless,
Philothei

[Tsarina]

why is it then that more Orthdox women do NOT wear head-coverings, if it is so taught and understood that it should be that way?
as for me, coming from a non-denom Protestant background, of course it isn't taught in that church, so i've never fully understood the reasons behind it, when I first started looking into the Orthodox Church, I saw head-covering as legalistic and felt as though it was something taught to women because they were considered "lower" than men.
I still do not fully understand it......

Most Orthodox women don't wear head-covering in Church because they're not taught to wear one nor do they know why they have to wear them.. or where the idea comes from. I found wonderful quotes about head-covering by the Holy Fathers, but I'm having trouble retrieving this information at the moment. Once I find it, i will post it here.

Wearing head-covering is not legalistic and we are not told to wear it because we are "lower" than men, we are all equal in Christ.. keep in mind this:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28

[KatyaMartinka]

Most Orthodox women don't wear head-covering in Church because they're not taught to wear one nor do they know why they have to wear them.. or where the idea comes from. I found wonderful quotes about head-covering by the Holy Fathers, but I'm having trouble retrieving this information at the moment. Once I find it, i will post it here.

Wearing head-covering is not legalistic and we are not told to wear it because we are "lower" than men, we are all equal in Christ.. keep in mind this:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28

I would greatly appreciate the quotes from the fathers when you can get them. :)

as to that verse..... if we are all one in Christ, why is there the differentiations between men and women, such as head-covering for women, and women not allowed to do this and that in church, etc... ? I am by NO means a feminist, and I do understand the differences between men and women and appreciate them... just trying to understand where we all stand in light of that verse, and why?

[Philothei]

I agree with Tsarina, Katya, do not let anyone tell you that practicing head covering is in any way shape or form degrading to women. Actually our nuns who live a pious life wear it and it is part of their obedience to the monastic vow. It is an outwordly sign to their devotions to Christ... as it is their cassock and also monks wear them... If you decide to wear it just know that it is a Christian practice and based in the Bible. I also know some Apostolic Churches that practice it and they are not Orthodox either. Showing piety has nothing to do with unequality it just shows reverence to God not submission to man. Those are arguments and ideas of our society that does not see how one can show outwordly her/his piety and reverense to God.... A Christian tradition that has prevailed over the 2,000 years tradition.

I am not covering and non-in my parish does BUT that doe snot mean I do not agree with it. I accept it as a Christian cultural experession of piety, well rooted in the Bible and the tradition of our Church.


God bless,
Philothei

[Philothei]

There are differentiations cause there are different roles.

Christ was a man and the priest is the icon of Christ. We used to have ordained Diconeses and for now that order is defunct. They used to be able to do work with women and teach them the faith some say they used to bring the eucarist to the women ward in the first Byz. Hospitals... etc. they were great helpers to the Bishops.

Women or men are both not allowed in the altar... there are canons that say that but they are not followed... The rule goes if you have no business going into the altar then you are not needed...

Men in the Church should dress modest too... No shorts are allowed etc. they apply also to men. Also no hats kissing an icon or the priest
s hand etc. I am sure others can point to more...


Now if the Bible was contradictory by saying that"women should cover their heads" and also there "is no male or female" then we are not reading it right.... me thinks... since we have to understand that WE are the ones who view head covering as ....unequal ...not the Bible... it all boils down to ...comparing oranges with apples... are they equal as fruit ...? yes are they different? yes. so it goes with each gender there comes different responsibilities... if you read the marriage epistle it says it all...IMO...


God bless,
Philothei

[Khaleas]

In the MP parish I go to it's probably 75% do, 25% don't. In my OCA parish it's 2 persons do, the rest don't. Me being one of the two...
I wear a scarf all the time (sometimes even at home as I hate to have my hair in my face) and I feel very 'naked' without it. It helps me concentrate, esp since I have very sensitive hearing. Even if no one else wears a scarf I wear one, but don't make any stink about it. If someone else makes a stink about it's their issue. I honestly doubt there is a single Orthodox priest who would tell someone not to wear a scarf (now if he would tell me not to, I would oblige but probably not go back).
I think that if you wear the scarf like it wasn't even there and not pay attention to what people say or do, less people will notice.
If I wear a scarf at a Greek church they just generally think I'm Russian and never say a thing.

[ThePilgrim]

Of course I also think that "personal piety" is to do full prostrations, kissing the hand of the priest, Bishops so on or wearing no pants in the Church etc. not all of them are followed ...

I laughed so hard when I read that sentence that I think my face turned red. Let's just say I'm unaware of the last of these customs ;-)

In Christ,
John

[Dorothea]

St. Paul speaks about women covering their heads in the Bible. The Holy-Fathers also speak about it and say it is a disgrace for women to have their head uncovered. So, it's best to at least cover the head in Church.

No, wearing a head-covering is not an ethnic thing. The Russians do it because they were able to keep tradition, whereas the Arabs lost tradition in their country which reflects here in North America. A lot of Arab Orthodox Churches are even communion Catholics back home, truly not what the Orthodox Church should be doing. On the other hand, Greek parishes in North America have lost little traditions like wearing a head-covering as well, which is sad. Perhaps to truly see what the Fathers say about this matter, look into it.. it's really interesting. :)

I can try finding some head-covering quotes for you from the Holy Fathers.. if you want?
Yes, I remember reading what St. Paul said about women covering their heads. :) .

[Tsarina]

I would greatly appreciate the quotes from the fathers when you can get them. :)

as to that verse..... if we are all one in Christ, why is there the differentiations between men and women, such as head-covering for women, and women not allowed to do this and that in church, etc... ? I am by NO means a feminist, and I do understand the differences between men and women and appreciate them... just trying to understand where we all stand in light of that verse, and why?

Both men and women have to do certain they have to do. For example, women are to wear head-coverings- which is mentioned in the Bible by St. Paul and many of the Holy Fathers (I'm still searching for those quotes, sorry for keeping you waiting).. and men are suppose to grow out their beards. That's written in the cannons for the guys and the Holy Fathers also tell them not to shave their face.

[Dorothea]

I think perhaps the problem is that women have not been taught the reasons from Scripture, and have seen it as a cultural thing that was done in the old country but doesn't apply to them as women in modern American society, or as legalistic or whatever. And priests may hesitate to speak about things that many people believe fall under "personal piety".

Our priest has never mentioned it in a sermon, and I don't know what he'd say if a woman asked him about it. I think Juvenaly was right about the priest's wife setting the tone for a parish in this regard.

Just a thought. May be all wrong. :)

Mary
Could be. None of the priests' wives at the GOC's I've been to wear head scarves/coverings though.

[Tsarina]

This is from St. John Chrysostom's homilies on the writings of St. Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians. Start reading at "verse 4".

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xxvii.html#iv.xxvii-Page_152

[Dorothea]

Since this is a custom like many others I would suggest for you to do what your feel confortable .... if matuska does not cover that means that your community and priest is not "into it" that does not mean that they are wrong or right that means that they do not make it priority.

As far as the historicity of the head covering it is true that it does have to do with women covering as it is mentioned in the Bible. Whether someone wants to practice it or not though I think in our days it is a personal piety and decision. Of course I also think that "personal piety" is to do full prostrations, kissing the hand of the priest, Bishops so on or wearing no pants in the Church etc. not all of them are followed ... and that means that it depends on the 'cultural" ethos expressed in the communities. I have noticed numerous faithful not even doing their cross before recieving communion... etc. Orthodoxy does not stand for "uniformity" in 'personal piety' rather has a spectrum of it.

God bless,
Philothei
Thanks for the great posts, Philothei because that's how I feel about the issue. I don't feel comfortable wearing a scarf maybe because I never have and would feel weird wearing one. :sorry: :blush: But I do the other things that you talked about, and that I'm comfortable with...

[Dorothea]

I agree with Tsarina, Katya, do not let anyone tell you that practicing head covering is in any way shape or form degrading to women.

I am not covering BUT that does not mean I do not agree with it. I accept it as a Christian cultural experession of piety, well rooted in the Bible and the tradition of our Church.


God bless,
Philothei
I totally agree with what you said above.

[Matrona]

I laughed so hard when I read that sentence that I think my face turned red. Let's just say I'm unaware of the last of these customs ;-)

/me tries to extract from her brain the mental image of guys walking around church in their underroos... :eek:

[Akathist]

Here is why I wear a headscarf: I am a strong minded independent person who struggles with wanting to be my own head and against anyone being in control of me. Wearing the headscarf is a way for me to get focus on how I am obedient to the Church and the traditions of the church.

I used to not be very modest. So, wearing the headscarf is a reminder to me of the need for me to be more lady like and modest.

The headscarf helps me to focus on the holiness of God, and the church. It is so holy, that I wear a headscarf at all times when in the nave of the church. (I take it off in the dining room though.) Christ is present there and it is a real presence and I find wearing the headscarf helps me to see just how real that presence is.

I ask myself how would I want to be dressed and how would I act if really in the presence of Christ ... then I get real about how that is exactly what it is in Church. I would bow, I would cover my head, I would be quiet and pay attention, etc. I wouldn't want to be wearing exposing clothing, etc etc.

But I don't see it as my being less then a man. Women are reverenced in Orthodoxy in a way I never saw in my previous protestant churches. Not just women reverenced... femininity is reverenced. The fullness of femininity is Theotokos.

And, she is always in a headscarf in the parish (in the icons).

[Philothei]

I laughed so hard when I read that sentence that I think my face turned red. Let's just say I'm unaware of the last of these customs ;-)

In Christ,
John
I meant women wearing pants.. in the church....sorry it came out wrong....lol.....Now you all make feel bad i need to go and correct it....

God bless,Philothei

[Philothei]

/me tries to extract from her brain the mental image of guys walking around church in their underroos... :eek:
I wrote it wrong.....my poor english... lol... but you guys ... it is lent do not let your mind wonder I wil go and correct it....lol... it gave me quite a laugh too...

[KatyaMartinka]

.....and men are suppose to grow out their beards. That's written in the cannons for the guys and the Holy Fathers also tell them not to shave their face.

so according to this, I HAVE to let my husband grow a beard? even if it is repulsive to me?

none of the clergy in our parish have beards. does that mean they are sinning?

and this: "Ver. 14 (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/bible/asv.iCor.11.html#iCor.11.14). “Doth not even nature itself teach you, that if a man have long hair, it is a dishonor unto him?”
i've seen MANY an Orthodox man with long hair. so what then is this verse to mean?

I hope no one thinks i'm trying to be argumentative, i'm merely confused and trying to understand.

[Orthosdoxa]

It has to do with not being vain and conforming to this world - needing to look a certain way to gain man's approval, etc. I believe it is also a carryover from the Jewish priests of the OT.

[Philothei]

No Katya your husband does not have to do that.... again canons are to be interpreted by the priests and Bishops... not other laity and esp. by your Spiritual fahter. These canons are "defunct" (hardly used at best....) If you really want an aswer ...if I were you ....I would ask my priest who knows you most and can give you a direct answer. All these practices are very good and at but they are not "rules" to live by... But to be honest trust your SF and his opinions ... rather than put any faith in this forum....

I do not mean to disagree with Tsarina but... it is too much of an 'overgenarization' and simplification here... (I think it is because there is a "TAW beard fun club"....lol... around...

Also yes some priests do not have beards.... it is not a sin... either just a practice of the Eastern Christendom.. In the west the opposite took place. I am not for extremes here and I think both traditions are as valid. Long beards do not guarantee piety as coverings do not either bottom line the respect for God is inwardly not only outwordly as it can lead to pietism and pseudo-piety a movement so alive in our times... that modern time theologians warn us about .. (Do not make me post Yiannaras here....)


God bless,
Philothei

[Xpycoctomos]

I think all of you make good points on the head scarves. I think Tsarina makes an equally good point, however.

I guess in the end if we are wrong for not holding on firmer to the tradition of the headscarves, I think we can safely trust that God will extend His mercy to us anyhow. (Not that Tsarina was suggesting otherwise) but becuase of how the scriptures are so firm on this issue and because of what Orthodox tradition has always witnessed to us (up until recent decades), I think anyone would be hardpressed to prove that it is NOT preferred to wear headscarves. At least to convince me. And you are talking to someone who 1) does not have a beard, 2) does not have a wife that wears a head scarf and 3) goes to a Church where over 90% of the women wear nothing on their head... even among the old babushkas.

[Tsarina]

Opps.. double post.. Sorry guys, my computer is taking forever to load and it keeps freezing. Half my posts don't even show up.. argh. lols

[Tsarina]

If your husband wants to grow his beard out, let him and don't stop him.
It's sad that a lot of clergy don't have beards, it's required of them but i can't say that they are sinning.. who am I to say? I'm the biggest sinner. We can emulate what we see, because a lot of the time, what we see is incorrect. We should look into what the Fathers of the Church say, and look to the Saints for examples.

And don't worry, I totally understand that this can be confusing, i was really confused too when i read that men that have long hair are dishonoring themselves. And yes, many Orthodox clergy and laity have long hair. There is a long explanation to this which i will get back to later. (My computer is freezing up bad and the connection has been really slow for the past two days) :sigh:

But to stay on topic about the head-covering. Let me share with you some quotes on this matter by the Saints:


Those who are of the world think how they are to please their wives, if they are men, or their husbands, if they are women, [and choose their dress accordingly]; except that women, whom the Apostle orders to cover [velare, to veil] their heads, ought not to uncover their hair, even if they are married. -St. Augustine of Hippo
But if any say, Nay, how can this be a shame to the woman, if [by removing the veil] she mount up to the glory of the man? we might make this answer: She doth not mount up, but rather falls from her own proper honor. Since not to abide within our own limits and the law ordained of God, but to go beyond, is not an addition but a diminution. For as he that desireth other mens goods and seizeth what is not his own, hath not gained anything more, but is diminished, having lost even that which he had (which kind of thing also happened in Paradise); so likewise the woman acquireth not the mans dignity, but loseth even the woman s decency which she had. And not from hence only is her shame and reproach, but also on account of her covetousness. -St. John Chyrsostom
It is not that the Fathers wished to degrade the woman; they wished to raise her up from the muck of the fall and place her on the glorious throne which God has prepared for her. The veil is not womans yoke, but rather her crown. - St. John Chyrsostom
and.. for some beard sayings from the Saints:


"How womanly it is for one who is a man to comb himself and shave himself with a razor, for the sake of fine effect, and to arrange his hair at the mirror, shave his cheeks, pluck hairs out of them, and smooth them!…For God wished women to be smooth and to rejoice in their locks alone growing spontaneously, as a horse in his mane. But He adorned man like the lions, with a beard, and endowed him as an attribute of manhood, with a hairy chest--a sign of strength and rule." St. Clement of Alexandria
"What can be worse and more disgusting than cutting one’s beard, which is an image of a man, and growing one’s hair long? The word of God and the teaching in the Enactments of the Apostles, on the issue of a beard, prescribes not to spoil it, which means not to cut the hair of the beard, but at the same time not to have long hair, like loose women. Not to give access to vanity under the guise of righteousness" - Saint Epiphanius of Salamis

[Khaleas]

Guess men in that area were just blessed with hair growth. Hubs could probably grow his beard an inch in three weeks since he has a five a clock shadow by noon (he'd probably look something like our good Lotar if the Navy would let him). He has more beard in a week than many priests... but then again I prefer men who can't grow beards to just not do it instead of having 13 hairs sticking out in different directions... that just looks creepy to me LOL.
So that's one thing on the agenda when he leaves the Navy (who knows, I might have to wait another 15 years... ) BEARD. He could have a mustache but he looks like a 'dirty Mexican' (his words, not mine) with a mustache. They started calling him 'Jose' when he was on cruise and they grew mustaches.... UGH...

[KatyaMartinka]

I'm sorry... as things stand right now, I cannot stand for my husband to have a beard. I have conceded the point and allowed him to grow a goatee and mustache, but a full beard I cannot abide.
If I am wrong in this, then let me be corrected as I will, but I am the one that has to look at, kiss, and sleep next to my husband every day and night.

[Orthosdoxa]

While Tsarina is correct in her assertions about these traditions, let's not lose the forest for the trees. There are a lot bigger fish to fry than hair.

[Chocolatesa]

why is it then that more Orthdox women do NOT wear head-coverings, if it is so taught and understood that it should be that way?
as for me, coming from a non-denom Protestant background, of course it isn't taught in that church, so i've never fully understood the reasons behind it, when I first started looking into the Orthodox Church, I saw head-covering as legalistic and felt as though it was something taught to women because they were considered "lower" than men.
I still do not fully understand it......


Here, this might clarify things a bit, women are in no way considered "lower" than me, on the contrary, we each have our own different authority, the passage about head covering in the Orthodox study bible had even translated the greek word as authority, I don't know about other translations of the bible though. http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/headcoverings.aspx

[Matrona]

I'm sorry... as things stand right now, I cannot stand for my husband to have a beard. I have conceded the point and allowed him to grow a goatee and mustache, but a full beard I cannot abide.
If I am wrong in this, then let me be corrected as I will, but I am the one that has to look at, kiss, and sleep next to my husband every day and night.

No, your husband does not have to have a beard, especially if you're uncomfortable with it. It's a little t tradition. My bishop doesn't have a beard and neither does my metropolitan.

[MariaRegina]

/me tries to extract from her brain the mental image of guys walking around church in their underroos... :eek:

Yikes

I guess you heard of the Catholic priest here in Los Angeles who said emphatically that women are not to wear pants to church.

That announcement appeared in the Los Angeles times. People laughed to tears.

[orthros]

PEACE.....THIS IS AN INTERESTING TOPIC BECAUSE COMING FROM THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHERE HEADCOVERINGS SEEM TO BE COMING BACK IN TO PLACE, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE LATIN MASS IS BEING SAID AGAIN. I WOULD HAVE TO SAY I DO AGREE THAT IT IS WHAT WE HAVE IN OUR SOULS AS CHRISTIANS THAT COUNTS, BUT IT DOES STATE IN BOTH THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS, THAT WOMEN SHOULD WEAR HEADCOVERINGS. I ALWAYS SAW THIS CUSTOM AS PREVENTING ONE FROM BEING DISTRACTED DURING PRAYER AND NOT BEING ADMIRED BY MEN DURING THE SERVICE. THERE IS ALWAYS THE POSSIBILITY OF WOMEN GAZING AT EACH OTHER'S HAIR-DO'S AND FASHIONS TOO, AND THIS CAN ALSO BE A BIG DISTRACTION - FROM GOD - FROM PRAYER - FROM WORSHIP - FROM WHAT IS BEING PREACHED......JUST A THOUGHT - I HAVE BEEN WEARING A HEADCOVERING FOR QUITE SOME TIME NOW - BUT I AM ATTENDING THE ORTHODOX CHURCH FOR THE "ANCIENT DIVINE LITURGY" AND RELIGION CLASSES. I WONDERED IF ANYONE HAS THOUGHT OF THESE VIEWPOINTS REGARDING THE HEADCOVERINGS.....BLESSINGS, "orthros":crosseo:

[orthros]

Peace.....Once again coming from the Catholic Church, I can say that for many personal reasons a woman may want to wear pants to Church. However, what has happened in the Catholic Church, is that women are now Lectors (readers), and Eucharistic Ministers, and with the altar now being out of the enclosure with the priest facing the people, the women are up in the sanctuary with the priest, deacon etc....wearing pants. I have to say, it does not look great to me. Even if they had a clerical robe for laity over their pants would be an improvement. I think of the young girls who are sitting in the pews week after week looking at this and to be honest with you, there are almost no women at Church wearing dresses or skirts, but pants and bluejeans. You see, the danger here is that it becomes all pants and no dresses as has been happening in the Catholic Church. Just a thought to share.....

Blessings, "orthros":crosseo:

[Philothei]

PEACE.....THIS IS AN INTERESTING TOPIC BECAUSE COMING FROM THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHERE HEADCOVERINGS SEEM TO BE COMING BACK IN TO PLACE, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE LATIN MASS IS BEING SAID AGAIN. I WOULD HAVE TO SAY I DO AGREE THAT IT IS WHAT WE HAVE IN OUR SOULS AS CHRISTIANS THAT COUNTS, BUT IT DOES STATE IN BOTH THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS, THAT WOMEN SHOULD WEAR HEADCOVERINGS. I ALWAYS SAW THIS CUSTOM AS PREVENTING ONE FROM BEING DISTRACTED DURING PRAYER AND NOT BEING ADMIRED BY MEN DURING THE SERVICE. THERE IS ALWAYS THE POSSIBILITY OF WOMEN GAZING AT EACH OTHER'S HAIR-DO'S AND FASHIONS TOO, AND THIS CAN ALSO BE A BIG DISTRACTION - FROM GOD - FROM PRAYER - FROM WORSHIP - FROM WHAT IS BEING PREACHED......JUST A THOUGHT - I HAVE BEEN WEARING A HEADCOVERING FOR QUITE SOME TIME NOW - BUT I AM ATTENDING THE ORTHODOX CHURCH FOR THE "ANCIENT DIVINE LITURGY" AND RELIGION CLASSES. I WONDERED IF ANYONE HAS THOUGHT OF THESE VIEWPOINTS REGARDING THE HEADCOVERINGS.....BLESSINGS, "orthros":crosseo:
Defenately good comments... but I would humbly ask you a favor. I enjoyed your post tremendously and happy tosee that you understand that tradition... do not take me wrong Could you please write on lower case as it is easier for me... I do not mean to offend you a bit. If this is how you prefer to write it is okay with me... but if you can use the lower case it would be supper. I undestand some people have problems with small letters and that is the reason they write with big letters you could use lagrger pica like Aria does if that is the problem.... Again forgive me for asking I do not intend any offense.

God bless,
Philothei

[Philothei]

oh... thanks ..never mind.... :) You are writing in lower case....sorry

[Philothei]

Peace.....Once again coming from the Catholic Church, I can say that for many personal reasons a woman may want to wear pants to Church. However, what has happened in the Catholic Church, is that women are now Lectors (readers), and Eucharistic Ministers, and with the altar now being out of the enclosure with the priest facing the people, the women are up in the sanctuary with the priest, deacon etc....wearing pants. I have to say, it does not look great to me. Even if they had a clerical robe for laity over their pants would be an improvement. I think of the young girls who are sitting in the pews week after week looking at this and to be honest with you, there are almost no women at Church wearing dresses or skirts, but pants and bluejeans. You see, the danger here is that it becomes all pants and no dresses as has been happening in the Catholic Church. Just a thought to share.....

Blessings, "orthros":crosseo:

I agree with you pants do set a bad standard and women should not wear them... I prefer skirts and dresses myself. I am glad to see that the trend is changing even one catholic parishioner at a time...:)

God bless,
Philothei

[Dorothea]

so according to this, I HAVE to let my husband grow a beard? even if it is repulsive to me?

none of the clergy in our parish have beards. does that mean they are sinning?

and this: "Ver. 14 (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/bible/asv.iCor.11.html#iCor.11.14). “Doth not even nature itself teach you, that if a man have long hair, it is a dishonor unto him?”
i've seen MANY an Orthodox man with long hair. so what then is this verse to mean?

I hope no one thinks i'm trying to be argumentative, i'm merely confused and trying to understand.
I thought that was for the clergy, not the lay people...growing beards and such. The Church, I'm sure, understands that military men aren't permitted beards. So, the most my hubs can grow is a tiny mustache...and even that has to be trimmed a certain way.

[Dorothea]

I agree with you pants do set a bad standard and women should not wear them... I prefer skirts and dresses myself. I am glad to see that the trend is changing even one catholic parishioner at a time...:)

God bless,
Philothei
Me too. Although I've seen pants and even jeans on occasion being worn at church, the majority of the time, I wear dresses or skirts. I have worn pants to Vespers, and I wore jeans one time because we were staying at the hospital and Ronald McDonald House, and didn't have any dress up clothes because we were there for our son's surgery, but we wanted to try to make it to DL one time while we were staying there. That was an exception for me.

[Akathist]

I'm sorry... as things stand right now, I cannot stand for my husband to have a beard. I have conceded the point and allowed him to grow a goatee and mustache, but a full beard I cannot abide.
If I am wrong in this, then let me be corrected as I will, but I am the one that has to look at, kiss, and sleep next to my husband every day and night.

I just wanted to emphasize again that your husband does not need to grow a beard just as you don't need to wear a headcovering.

These are personal decisions made with consultation with one's Priest.

[Tsarina]

I just wanted to emphasize again that your husband does not need to grow a beard just as you don't need to wear a headcovering.

These are personal decisions made with consultation with one's Priest.

Why say such a thing when the Holy Fathers know best and tell us the correct traditional values that Orthodox Christians should be carrying out?

I mean, why have to consult a Priest.. aren't the sayings of the Holy Fathers enough?

On second hand, it's sometimes hard to trust what Priests have to say sometime. I've spoken to Priests, who revealed to me that it's okay for girls to enter the Altar, and how it's okay to go to confession in a Roman Catholic Church. I was so confused, lols. That's when I learned to look up to what the wise ones of our Church said, in order to understand or solve matters that have been clinging in my crazy head. :P

[Orthosdoxa]

I've spoken to Priests, who revealed to me that it's okay for girls to enter the Altar, and how it's okay to go to confession in a Roman Catholic Church.

Priests are not gods, and unfortunately some of them have fallen into heresy and disobedience. I am always saddened to hear of things like this.

We obey our priests in humility and submission, but there are times we have to stand up, too.

[Tsarina]

Priests are not gods, and unfortunately some of them have fallen into heresy and disobedience. I am always saddened to hear of things like this.

We obey our priests in humility and submission, but there are times we have to stand up, too.

It's so sad when I hear about Clergy or anyone Orthodox in fact who has fallen into heresy and disobedience.

I totally agree with you! Yes, we do obey our Priests in humility and submission, unless they tell us something that goes against correct practice.

I thank God that he has given me a Priest that I can trust 100% with all his answers that he gives me. For most of my journey in Orthodoxy, i was being guided the wrong way. :sigh:

[Matrona]

It's okay for girls/women to go into the altar area if they have business there. Not to serve in liturgy, with exception for women monastics in certain cases, but it is not true that women are barred from going back there.

[Philothei]

It's okay for girls/women to go into the altar area if they have business there. Not to serve in liturgy, with exception for women monastics in certain cases, but it is not true that women are barred from going back there.
agree 100% with you Matrona...women monastics can go into the altar to assist with Liturgy. And also the canons forbid to "anyone' to go back there... with no business.

I also would like to add that even though some priests may not be a 100% right all the time... or what we think it is right... The situation could be one of two things.. either the priest is wrong and should be corrected by reported to the Bishop... if he is proclaiming something totally out of wack like go to confession to a Catholic preiest or he maybe follows what his Bishop tells him.... I have personally seen this happening too... with different practices... like "bending" the rules on a fasting period and do a sacrament... etc.

I agree that it is the conscience of the Church that keeps the Orthodox ethos and practice "alive" to a point. There should be checks and balances on both laity and Clergy. But... at the same time do not have to be so judgmental on our clergy...esp. in matter of the canons... since like Orthosdoxa said we have to humbly submit to their guidance as it is for our spiritual growth and health.

God bless,
Philothei