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[SobriaInebrietas]

Hi everyone. I haven't been around CF for a long while, so I guess you could consider me a new member.

I have been a Christian for 3 1/2 years. Most of what I understand and believe about Christianity is from a Reformed/Calvinist perspective. I am going through a tough time in my life right now and am having serious doubts and questions about my current church and some specific issues with Reformed doctrine that I don't really want to get into right now. In short I am feeling quite lost and confused.

I have been doing some reading about Luther and his life and have become very interested in what it is that Lutherans believe and practice, especially differences between Lutheranism and Calvinism. I have done a little research, but am not sure where to look for more in-depth definitions and explainations (I am afraid to ask this advice of the Reformed Forums as I would expect only highly-biased super-critical advice and resources.)

I am thinking about visiting a local Lutheran church to see what it is like, but I don't know if I should yet or even if my husband would approve.

Can anyone give me some advice about any of this?

Thanks for listening.

[DaRev]

Here is a link that explains the basic differences between Lutheran and Reformed theology.
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2242

You are certainly free to ask question in this forum. Questions can be answered generally here. If you wish more specific answers to specific questions, you may PM me and I'll be happy to assist in any way I can.

[Plutonius]

Remember DaRev is a Rev :thumbsup:

P.S. I havent been on CF for awhile since they screwed up my entire account, i.e. No denomination, no profile, no nothing :(

[BigNorsk]

Well in the worship service, some Calvinists follow what is known as the regulative prinicple. Meaning if it isn't specifically authorized, then it is prohibited. Not all but some Calvinists follow this. Lutherans on the other hand operate that there are those things commanded, those prohibited and those that are neither, adiaphora, we call them or areas of freedom.

The other major difference you will see is that Calvinists approach everything with the central doctrine beind predestination. This causes problems when everything is hung based on the scrutiny of the inscrutible. Luther actually thought it dangerous to dig too deeply into predestination because it wouldn't be long before you were thinking things like God was the cause of sin and such. Or that God doesn't intend to save some or many people.

For Lutherans, the central doctrine is the doctrine of justificaion that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone solely for Christ's sake. That is the purpose of the Bible, to lead people to God.

Another thing is that Lutherans are more strictly sola Scriptura. If a question is not answered by scripture we try to leave it unanswered. If there seems to be tension between two things in scripture, we try to leave the tension. We are concerned with having biblical Christianity, not with having a neat orderly system.

Last thing I can think of is there is a general trend in Calvinism towards the denial of the supernatural. Calvin speculated that Jesus didn't miraculously appear in the upper room that for some reason he thought it more likely that Jesus made a door and suddenly walked in. Also a lot of the denial of the real presence in Holy Communion seems to come from the understanding that a body can't be in more places than one, even if it is Jesus' body.

That's a general trend. You see a lot of varience on that one.

Oh we disagree on the perseverance of the saints. Gets back to the faith. Lutherans just leave it at the doctrine of justification, you believe, you are saved. Stop believing, you aren't.


Marv

[Edial]

I think Marv (BigNorsk) answered it well.

I would add the following.

In plain terms, the Lutherans believe that Christ died for all yet many would reject Him.
Apparently you know that the Calvinists believe that Christ died only for the few.

That is a huge difference (in my opinion) that cannot be explained by the Calvinists using the Scriptures.
They use logic in order to explain their position.

That teaching also aborts John 3:16 (probably the most known verse in the entire Bible) to something that is very limited. "For God so loved the world" loses it's meaning, since they teach that God does not love all.

The fact that the Lutherans are more Sola Scriptura (as Marv noted) is that they (we) see the Scriptures plainly.
If Christ said "This is my body", who am I to argue?
How can I possibly prove that it is not?
And I tried, believe me :).
Yet this verse bothered me when I was teaching it to be symbolic, as a Baptist.

Lutherans stress the love of God.

Calvinists stress the judgement of God.

Thanks, :)
Ed

[Edial]

...

I am thinking about visiting a local Lutheran church to see what it is like, but I don't know if I should yet or even if my husband would approve.

Can anyone give me some advice about any of this?

Thanks for listening.
This is a tough one.

I presume your husband knows that you have doubts about the Reformed theology.
How does he handle it?

Thanks, :)
Ed

[SobriaInebrietas]

Oh yay, lots of replies! :)

Thank you all for the answers!

This is a tough one.

I presume your husband knows that you have doubts about the Reformed theology.
How does he handle it?

Thanks, :)
Ed

Well, I am in and out of doubts about life in general lately (Maybe my prayer requests on my profile could explain a little about that. I have just been having an all around hard time, so of course we have discussed that aspect as well). Anyway, he is pretty gracious and understanding. I mentioned recently to him that I would like to visit a Lutheran church. He gave no objections and I think he is a little interested himself (He recently met and worked with a Lutheran that left quite an impression on him - my husband is an artist). I think I am just afraid to tell him that I am more than "a little" interested. Our current church is VERY small and half of the congregation are his relatives or lifelong friends of his. I don't know how all this is going to go over if the word gets out.



Lutherans stress the love of God.

Calvinists stress the judgement of God.

Thanks, :)
Ed

One of my key issues right now. I am struggling to find the love of God and the comfort of Christ in a church that stresses total depravity and guilt and judgement to excess, and to the the point that sometimes I just wish I could die already. This ominous cloud so heavily darkens the good news of the gospel that even when I read it I feel nothing but despair...

Here is a link that explains the basic differences between Lutheran and Reformed theology.
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2242

You are certainly free to ask question in this forum. Questions can be answered generally here. If you wish more specific answers to specific questions, you may PM me and I'll be happy to assist in any way I can.


Thanks to DaRev for the link, which has been tremendously helpful so far and very encouraging! I am still navagating the site, because there is so much information in one place! I have been reading it all day! You don't know how encouraging this is to me right now. (I even see that there are two congregations in my town!)

I will probably stick around here for a while...

[Plutoniua]

If you need anymore help or would like to ask questions, we are here to help :)

[Jim47]

Wanting to avoid an information overload I will only offer for the moment a link to a condensed article of faith from my church synod, there is of course more there to read and I can provide other links as well.

Just click on your choice of language (english I'm guessing ;) ) http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2601&collectionID=783

[filosofer]

Howdy, and welcome! Your concerns, questions are excellent. And there have been excellent responses.

One other crucial area has to do with Law and Gospel. Distinguishing these two is important, but even more important is being able to apply the right one at the right time to the right person.

Law (what we are to do and not do, and punishment when we fail)

Gospel (what God does for us in Jesus Christ)

True hope, comfort, and peace come from the Gospel, not the Law. For instance, the place for comfort is not the (double) predestination of Calvinism (which essentially is a Law to look within ourselves), but rather the cross of Jesus Christ (the Gospel which looks outside ourselves to God).

There is much more to this, but this begins to open up spiritual insight into the Scriptures and growth in your faith.

Blessings on your inquiries and searching.

[SobriaInebrietas]

True hope, comfort, and peace come from the Gospel, not the Law. For instance, the place for comfort is not the (double) predestination of Calvinism (which essentially is a Law to look within ourselves), but rather the cross of Jesus Christ (the Gospel which looks outside ourselves to God).

There is much more to this, but this begins to open up spiritual insight into the Scriptures and growth in your faith.

Blessings on your inquiries and searching.



Wow! that is a lot to chew on... But exactly what I have been hoping/longing to hear. I will be praying about this... Thank you for the encouraging advice.

:blush:

[Edial]

...
Well, I am in and out of doubts about life in general lately (Maybe my prayer requests on my profile could explain a little about that. I have just been having an all around hard time, so of course we have discussed that aspect as well). Anyway, he is pretty gracious and understanding. I mentioned recently to him that I would like to visit a Lutheran church. He gave no objections and I think he is a little interested himself (He recently met and worked with a Lutheran that left quite an impression on him - my husband is an artist). I think I am just afraid to tell him that I am more than "a little" interested. Our current church is VERY small and half of the congregation are his relatives or lifelong friends of his. I don't know how all this is going to go over if the word gets out.
If your husband has no problems for you to see a Lutheran church, see it.
Make certain however that it is not an ELCA synod. They can be extremely liberal in many ways. If you are ready to go to one, let us know and some of the people here would find a good Lutheran church in your neighborhood or outside of it, if you so choose.

And concerning your small church and the difficulties that might arise if the word gets out, I would suggest your husband handles this. These are his relatives and he himself is probably not too comfortable being under a microscope.
I do not know anyone who is. :)

I did read your profile and we do have a person here who is medically suffering as you do.
I'll alert her via a PM to look at your posts.


...
One of my key issues right now. I am struggling to find the love of God and the comfort of Christ in a church that stresses total depravity and guilt and judgement to excess, and to the the point that sometimes I just wish I could die already. This ominous cloud so heavily darkens the good news of the gospel that even when I read it I feel nothing but despair.
I know what you are saying.
The message of Christ is that he did not come to condemn the world, but to save it.
If one thinks that the Big God's primary interest is to judge the little Us, one loses the message of the Gospel.

Condemnation cannot save, love saves.

Thanks, :)
Ed

[DaRev]

Make certain however that it is not an ELCA synod.

She's already located a couple LCMS congregations near her.

[KimLCMS]

Just wanted to pop in and say welcome and I'll pray for you!

[Edial]

She's already located a couple LCMS congregations near her.
OK.

[SobriaInebrietas]

If your husband has no problems for you to see a Lutheran church, see it.
Make certain however that it is not an ELCA synod. They can be extremely liberal in many ways. If you are ready to go to one, let us know and some of the people here would find a good Lutheran church in your neighborhood or outside of it, if you so choose.

And concerning your small church and the difficulties that might arise if the word gets out, I would suggest your husband handles this. These are his relatives and he himself is probably not too comfortable being under a microscope.
I do not know anyone who is. :)

I did read your profile and we do have a person here who is medically suffering as you do.
I'll alert her via a PM to look at your posts.



I know what you are saying.
The message of Christ is that he did not come to condemn the world, but to save it.
If one thinks that the Big God's primary interest is to judge the little Us, one loses the message of the Gospel.

Condemnation cannot save, love saves.

Thanks, :)
Ed

Thank you for the advice. There is a church called St. Peter's here which is LCMS. I do want to visit and am hoping I can do so soon, which may be possible since they have an early morning service at 8 (I am still obligated to go to my current church at this point as I am a member and a member of the RCUS - but their service doesn't start until 10:30).

Well as far as my husband goes, as of last night he officially thinks I am crazy - I mean literally - that I don't know what I want/need/believe about anything, that I am simply rejecting biblical teaching that I don't like hearing because it is hard and confusing and depressing... He acts like he is afraid I am developing a Joan of Arc complex (his reaction when I mentioned that maybe I felt that this is something God wants me to do or look in to). I think he is afraid to take me seriously as we are really dealing with so much right now... He doesn't quite understand, and is quite livid about me not first seeking help from our pastor way back when I first started having these reservations about Reformed doctrine. He is refusing to take me seriously until I do some "legitimate" research and talk to our pastor and the elders about it (I imagine he thinks they are just going to be able to eplain my doubts away and bring me back to reason).

UGGGGHHHHH.... Everything pretty much blew up last night; all because for some compelling feeling I had to talk to him about this. I didn't expect this reaction at all! What a mess... This is all so ridiculous and frustrating. I don't know what I can do anymore!

:cry:

[NoMoreHopelessness]

SobriaInebrietas,

I am very sorry to hear of your problems. Obviously your situation is fairly complex and cannot be understood from the outside but one sentence you wrote, challenged me to try and geiv you an advice.

You wrote:
" I mentioned that maybe I felt that this is something God wants me to do or look in to"

I do not know how your husband feels, but if I would hear such a thing from my wife, I would feel like I am loosing control. And my reaction would be very negative. Your husband is the spiritual head of your home. As such he is of course also responsible for your well-being and I am pretty certain that he will agree if you explain to him that you do not get what you need and that you are interested in learning more about another church and another theology. Make him see your need. We men are usually slower than women.

Anyway I wish the two of you all the best and peace and grace of God.

[RadMan]

http://extranos.blogspot.com/2006/11/penny-drops.html

...........It sounds weird because they (reformed) look at Baptism as an ordinance, a command, rather than a gift. No point discussing the mode, or candidates for baptism, you gotta discuss first the nature of the Gospel ie justification. Now that is also weird - to some.

No wonder it was difficult for me to get it because somewhere in my growth, I was made to focus on the Gospel as a demand rather than a declaration............

[SobriaInebrietas]

SobriaInebrietas,

I am very sorry to hear of your problems. Obviously your situation is fairly complex and cannot be understood from the outside but one sentence you wrote, challenged me to try and geiv you an advice.

You wrote:
" I mentioned that maybe I felt that this is something God wants me to do or look in to"

I do not know how your husband feels, but if I would hear such a thing from my wife, I would feel like I am loosing control. And my reaction would be very negative. Your husband is the spiritual head of your home. As such he is of course also responsible for your well-being and I am pretty certain that he will agree if you explain to him that you do not get what you need and that you are interested in learning more about another church and another theology. Make him see your need. We men are usually slower than women.

Anyway I wish the two of you all the best and peace and grace of God.

Thank you... Yes I agree. I know you are right, I have a hard time seeing things from his perspective, not only as a man, but as the spiritual head. I have a tendancy to get lost in/blinded by my emotions. I am trying to show him that this is important to me and something I need to deal with, but at the same time I have to understand that he feels pretty upset about all of this - he might not have seen it coming and is probably suprised.

:sigh:

I'm sure it will all work out in the end. I feel pretty lost and confused right now, but I know I just need to keep praying about this, reading the Bible, researching and all that...

[filosofer]

'Tis a wise Christian husband who listens carefully to his wife, her needs, her concerns, etc. God gives her insight that the husband cannot see. But woe to him who does not heed that quiet voice.

... speaking from experience.

[DaRev]

A wife is a part of her husband. If he does not listen to her, he is ignoring a part of himself.

[BigNorsk]

Thank you for the advice. There is a church called St. Peter's here which is LCMS. I do want to visit and am hoping I can do so soon, which may be possible since they have an early morning service at 8 (I am still obligated to go to my current church at this point as I am a member and a member of the RCUS - but their service doesn't start until 10:30).

Well as far as my husband goes, as of last night he officially thinks I am crazy - I mean literally - that I don't know what I want/need/believe about anything, that I am simply rejecting biblical teaching that I don't like hearing because it is hard and confusing and depressing... He acts like he is afraid I am developing a Joan of Arc complex (his reaction when I mentioned that maybe I felt that this is something God wants me to do or look in to). I think he is afraid to take me seriously as we are really dealing with so much right now... He doesn't quite understand, and is quite livid about me not first seeking help from our pastor way back when I first started having these reservations about Reformed doctrine. He is refusing to take me seriously until I do some "legitimate" research and talk to our pastor and the elders about it (I imagine he thinks they are just going to be able to eplain my doubts away and bring me back to reason).

UGGGGHHHHH.... Everything pretty much blew up last night; all because for some compelling feeling I had to talk to him about this. I didn't expect this reaction at all! What a mess... This is all so ridiculous and frustrating. I don't know what I can do anymore!

:cry:

Please do not judge your husband, nor your church too harshly. I know that if very difficult for you. I don't know that I would use the term crazy because that brings with it all sorts of emotional baggage, but let's admit, you do have severe problems and really aren't in the best position to judge many things because of that.

It is really, really important for you to trust your husband in your situation. After all you know that you get all sorts of feelings that aren't necessarily justified whether setting someone or something up on a pedestal or going the other way and feeling totally rejected.

I would agree with your husband in that the two of you really need to go to your current pastor and do some work together. Whatever doctrinal questions you have should be answered. Your husband needs to be there because often things don't translate well if you tell him what the pastor said. And he does need to be involved in this.

And you should talk to the pastor about your feelings and why you feel that way. Might be that you have a mistaken impression or two there.

And your husband is correct that many people instead of repenting will run and hide from the law. You haven't really shared any areas of sin in your life with us and really you don't need to. But if your feeling of rejection is because someone showed you where your behavior should be different and you are then just running, well your husband is correct that running isn't the proper response.

I suspect your desire to check out a Lutheran church kind of blindsided your husband and he's probably thinking it's one of the emotional roller coasters you've had in your life and not a well thought out decision. Realize that your condition makes life very difficult for him as well. I'm sure it has taken a toll on you as a family, and because of that too, the two of you really need to be in counseling with your pastor.

Maybe in the future you and your husband might decide together, as a family, to worship together some place else. Unless and until that time comes, I think your place is beside your husband, you have too many challenges to attempt to do this apart.

Marv

[SobriaInebrietas]

Please do not judge your husband, nor your church too harshly. I know that if very difficult for you. I don't know that I would use the term crazy because that brings with it all sorts of emotional baggage, but let's admit, you do have severe problems and really aren't in the best position to judge many things because of that.

It is really, really important for you to trust your husband in your situation. After all you know that you get all sorts of feelings that aren't necessarily justified whether setting someone or something up on a pedestal or going the other way and feeling totally rejected.

I would agree with your husband in that the two of you really need to go to your current pastor and do some work together. Whatever doctrinal questions you have should be answered. Your husband needs to be there because often things don't translate well if you tell him what the pastor said. And he does need to be involved in this.

And you should talk to the pastor about your feelings and why you feel that way. Might be that you have a mistaken impression or two there.

And your husband is correct that many people instead of repenting will run and hide from the law. You haven't really shared any areas of sin in your life with us and really you don't need to. But if your feeling of rejection is because someone showed you where your behavior should be different and you are then just running, well your husband is correct that running isn't the proper response.

I suspect your desire to check out a Lutheran church kind of blindsided your husband and he's probably thinking it's one of the emotional roller coasters you've had in your life and not a well thought out decision. Realize that your condition makes life very difficult for him as well. I'm sure it has taken a toll on you as a family, and because of that too, the two of you really need to be in counseling with your pastor.

Maybe in the future you and your husband might decide together, as a family, to worship together some place else. Unless and until that time comes, I think your place is beside your husband, you have too many challenges to attempt to do this apart.

Marv


Such sound and penetrating advice... These are all good suggestions that I know my husband would agree to and feel best with. He does want me to seek answers to the questions and objections I have from our pastor, which is good and reasonable; I know I have an obligation and responsibility to bring these things up - I know I can't just leave the church all of sudden on some whim and I really am not trying to do that.

Honestly the breaking point was the teachings that I disagree with became key features in the counselling that I recently begun with my pastor about my personal issues... That is when I really realized that these problems are a great source of despair and hopelessness in my life (election to damnation, limited atonement, etc.), which shouldn't be the case. The gospel is intended to comfort and help us isn't it? My counselling with our pastor so far has consisted of him exposing serious wounds and poking them with a hot iron (I am to seek repentance for alowing certain things to happen to me as a child because it was sin)....

I'm sorry, I don't want to bring anyone down... and I hope no one minds if I stick around while I try to sort all of this out...

Thank you for the advice again and to all who have answered me so far. It really has been helpful.

[DaRev]

Such sound and penetrating advice... These are all good suggestions that I know my husband would agree to and feel best with. He does want me to seek answers to the questions and objections I have from our pastor, which is good and reasonable; I know I have an obligation and responsibility to bring these things up - I know I can't just leave the church all of sudden on some whim and I really am not trying to do that.

Honestly the breaking point was the teachings that I disagree with became key features in the counselling that I recently begun with my pastor about my personal issues... That is when I really realized that these problems are a great source of despair and hopelessness in my life (election to damnation, limited atonement, etc.), which shouldn't be the case. The gospel is intended to comfort and help us isn't it? My counselling with our pastor so far has consisted of him exposing serious wounds and poking them with a hot iron (I am to seek repentance for alowing certain things to happen to me as a child because it was sin)....

I'm sorry, I don't want to bring anyone down... and I hope no one minds if I stick around while I try to sort all of this out...

Thank you for the advice again and to all who have answered me so far. It really has been helpful.

Prayers are being lifted for you. :crossrc:

[SobriaInebrietas]

Prayers are being lifted for you. :crossrc:


Thank you....:blush:

[seajoy]

I'm sorry, I don't want to bring anyone down... and I hope no one minds if I stick around while I try to sort all of this out...

You are not bringing anyone down. We are here to help. :hug:

[BigNorsk]

Yes, please stay. I don't really even know what to say to the pastor treating you like that.

Marv

[filosofer]

When a person struggles in the faith, the importance of faithful Christian friends who can provide wise advice is even more critical.

Plan to stay a while. We don't bite, well, if I take my teeth out, it wouldn't matter anyway. ;)

Stay and be refreshed in the truths of God's Word.

[SobriaInebrietas]

You are not bringing anyone down. We are here to help. :hug:

Thank you! :hug:

Yes, please stay. I don't really even know what to say to the pastor treating you like that.

Marv

Yah, me neither... :sigh:


When a person struggles in the faith, the importance of faithful Christian friends who can provide wise advice is even more critical.

Plan to stay a while. We don't bite, well, if I take my teeth out, it wouldn't matter anyway. ;)

Stay and be refreshed in the truths of God's Word.



Many many thanks... be sure I will have plenty of questions!

:blush:

[Edial]

'Tis a wise Christian husband who listens carefully to his wife, her needs, her concerns, etc. God gives her insight that the husband cannot see. But woe to him who does not heed that quiet voice.

... speaking from experience.


EXACTLY what I wanted to say.

Thanks filo, :)
Ed

[Edial]

Yes, please stay. I don't really even know what to say to the pastor treating you like that.

Yah, me neither... :sigh:

Unfortunately not every pastor is qualified to give advice on certain things.
It is not because they are bad people or are not learned, but because of their theology.

Theology can be as blinding as anything.

If one is asking a person to repent of sins when bad things were done to her as a child, I would say this pastor is disassociated with reality.
I am not saying he is right or wrong (I do not know the details), but he is not being realistic.

Why demand such a huge step of faith from a fragile person? :)
Christ never demanded that.

Let me give you an unrelated example of this.

Just recently I have seen a Baptist minister (for some 40 years) councel a couple that was living together and decided to get married and came to him for a blessing and to perform a ceremony.
(They were getting the constant advice from their friend that they should not be living tohether and get married).
At the pastor's house the topic quickly turned to the point of remarriage. Although both former spouses left them the minister refused to budge. They must wait for the spouses to return or remain single.
In the end the couple was devastated. The woman was in tears and the guy was angry.

They left the church and got married.
The minister did not want to allow them to leave and wanted to discipline them instead. I know the minister quiet well and was able to convince him that they have a right to leave and he has no right to order them to stay.

That minister was demanding a huge leap of faith from people that were fragile.

Incorrect theology does that.
Some teachers simply DO NOT KNOW how to resolve problems without demanding leaps of faith.
They say: "But the Bible teaches this".
However, they do not even realize (yet some do) that the Bible teaches some other options too.

He knew that other denominations teach differently concerning remarriage. He also knew that a topic of remarriage is debatable. However, his main purpose did not appear to be the happiness of the couple, but the teaching that he is used to.

Why did I write all this? ... just to say that if one has a title of a pastor he is not necessarily a good spiritual counselor.

Thanks, :)
Ed

[DaRev]

We don't bite,

No, we don't bite...

...hard, anyway. ;)

[SobriaInebrietas]

Unfortunately not every pastor is qualified to give advice on certain things.
It is not because they are bad people or are not learned, but because of their theology.

Theology can be as blinding as anything.

If one is asking a person to repent of sins when bad things were done to her as a child, I would say this pastor is disassociated with reality.
I am not saying he is right or wrong (I do not know the details), but he is not being realistic.

Why demand such a huge step of faith from a fragile person? :)
Christ never demanded that.

Let me give you an unrelated example of this.

Just recently I have seen a Baptist minister (for some 40 years) councel a couple that was living together and decided to get married and came to him for a blessing and to perform a ceremony.
(They were getting the constant advice from their friend that they should not be living tohether and get married).
At the pastor's house the topic quickly turned to the point of remarriage. Although both former spouses left them the minister refused to budge. They must wait for the spouses to return or remain single.
In the end the couple was devastated. The woman was in tears and the guy was angry.

They left the church and got married.
The minister did not want to allow them to leave and wanted to discipline them instead. I know the minister quiet well and was able to convince him that they have a right to leave and he has no right to order them to stay.

That minister was demanding a huge leap of faith from people that were fragile.

Incorrect theology does that.
Some teachers simply DO NOT KNOW how to resolve problems without demanding leaps of faith.
They say: "But the Bible teaches this".
However, they do not even realize (yet some do) that the Bible teaches some other options too.

He knew that other denominations teach differently concerning remarriage. He also knew that a topic of remarriage is debatable. However, his main purpose did not appear to be the happiness of the couple, but the teaching that he is used to.

Why did I write all this? ... just to say that if one has a title of a pastor he is not necessarily a good spiritual counselor.

Thanks, :)
Ed

Thanks for the advice. I agree... I actually talked to a friend in the church about this (she has had similar experiences with him) and she also admits that she doesn't think he is not qualified for this kind of thing.

I have decided that I would rather not talk to him about that kind of stuff at all... (I am going to be joining a group that meets once a week for three hours that is based on a three month program to help people with my kind of problems)... Since I am kind of stuck at this point since I have already agreed to counseling with him, maybe I can just start talking to him about my concerns about theology and doctrines that I am having trouble accepting (for good reason I believe) - spiritual concerns. Since he is more knowledgable in that area (I hope!) I may as well... It couldn't hurt anything. I am already a mess as it is.

[Edial]

Thanks for the advice. I agree... I actually talked to a friend in the church about this (she has had similar experiences with him) and she also admits that she doesn't think he is not qualified for this kind of thing.

I have decided that I would rather not talk to him about that kind of stuff at all... (I am going to be joining a group that meets once a week for three hours that is based on a three month program to help people with my kind of problems)... Since I am kind of stuck at this point since I have already agreed to counseling with him, maybe I can just start talking to him about my concerns about theology and doctrines that I am having trouble accepting (for good reason I believe) - spiritual concerns. Since he is more knowledgable in that area (I hope!) I may as well... It couldn't hurt anything. I am already a mess as it is.
He certainly is knowledgeable about Calvinist theology.

If you need to speak to him about it, I would suggest you ask him why he thinks that God does not love all people?
He will then point out verses in the OT concerning God hating the wicked.
Then you ask him why he does not have any NT references for it? (There are none in the NT).
If he tries showing you some from NT, they clearly present that God hates their sin and not the sinner himself.

Then you might ask him: "Why does this verse tell us to love our enemies, since God also loves them?"

MT 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor n and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies n and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Every Calvinist agrees that "be perfect" in v.48 means to do the same thing as the Father does ... that is to love all.

Then he might ask: "Does God change from the OT to the NT?"
God does not change. But his attitude towards the mankind changed after His sacrifice on the cross.

I hope I am not overburdening you here. :)

... but that is theology. :sigh: :):)

Thanks, :)
Ed

[SobriaInebrietas]

He certainly is knowledgeable about Calvinist theology.

If you need to speak to him about it, I would suggest you ask him why he thinks that God does not love all people?
He will then point out verses in the OT concerning God hating the wicked.
Then you ask him why he does not have any NT references for it? (There are none in the NT).
If he tries showing you some from NT, they clearly present that God hates their sin and not the sinner himself.

Then you might ask him: "Why does this verse tell us to love our enemies, since God also loves them?"

MT 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor n and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies n and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Every Calvinist agrees that "be perfect" in v.48 means to do the same thing as the Father does ... that is to love all.

Then he might ask: "Does God change from the OT to the NT?"
God does not change. But his attitude towards the mankind changed after His sacrifice on the cross.

I hope I am not overburdening you here. :)

... but that is theology. :sigh: :):)

Thanks, :)
Ed

No, not overburdening at all! It is quite appropriate since for the past couple of weeks I have been mulling about trying to figure out what exactly it is that I am going to say to him - So yes! That is extremely helpful! I didn't ever consider that the only examples they use are from the OT and never the NT... I didn't think it mattered since as they say, God never changes his mind (which is what I know he will say).

[filosofer]

Two notes:

He will probably say that "all" does not mean "all-inclusive" in every context, and then use that to dismiss passages such as 1 Timothy 2:3-5 and 1 John 2:1-2.

Also, keep in mind that since he is knowledgeable about Calvinist theology, he may appear to "run circles around you" confusing you more. If at any time you feel that he has not listened, it is appropriate for you to cut short the visit. The goal isn't to satisfy a "criteria" for him or anyone else or the congregation or the church body. The goal is your salvation and especially your assurance of salvation through what Christ has done for you.

[Plutoniua]

He certainly is knowledgeable about Calvinist theology.

If you need to speak to him about it, I would suggest you ask him why he thinks that God does not love all people?
He will then point out verses in the OT concerning God hating the wicked.
Then you ask him why he does not have any NT references for it? (There are none in the NT).
If he tries showing you some from NT, they clearly present that God hates their sin and not the sinner himself.

Then you might ask him: "Why does this verse tell us to love our enemies, since God also loves them?"

MT 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor n and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies n and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Every Calvinist agrees that "be perfect" in v.48 means to do the same thing as the Father does ... that is to love all.

Then he might ask: "Does God change from the OT to the NT?"
God does not change. But his attitude towards the mankind changed after His sacrifice on the cross.

I hope I am not overburdening you here. :)

... but that is theology. :sigh: :):)

Thanks, :)
Ed
Malachi 3:6 ESV
For I the LORD do not change;therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

Just for those who would want a verse to back up the Immutability of God. There are plenty of other verses to backup this up. Some people actually hold to the view that God does change.

[BigNorsk]

If I may add to the "all" debate. See the thing is, that pretty clearly all does not mean absolutely every single one in many contexts in the bible.

For instance "All have sinned..." Now clearly there is one very obviouse exception, Jesus. So all doesn't mean absolutely all.

That's a given.

But at that point Calvinist theology leaves the question and just makes a leap that since all doens't necessarily mean all, that then it means only the elect.

Here's the problem. While all might not quite mean all. It's never used to only mean a small bunch or a minority. Ant that's really how Calvinists use it. Ask your pastor what percentage of people in the world he beilieves are elect, are saved. If he thinks about it, I doubt he would come up with anything over maybe 10%, but possibly higher, say 25%. So this is a huge leap from all doesn't mean all, to all only means a few.

The only ways he could get higher is to adopt nonCalvinistic beliefs, like general revelation can save or that a good Muslim or Hindu could be saved or some such thing, or reject salvation through faith, but I doubt he will do those. But he does, because he doesn't think about it, take all which can have some exceptions and make it mean some or a few.

Some will try to finesse it and say well it's all because the saved come from all nations, again just ask him to show you multiple locations where all means a few from many places and he won't be able to.

So all doesn't mean all, but the meaning in Greek is not the equivalent to some or the minority or a handful either. All just doesn't fit the elect.

Marv

[SobriaInebrietas]

Two notes:

He will probably say that "all" does not mean "all-inclusive" in every context, and then use that to dismiss passages such as 1 Timothy 2:3-5 and 1 John 2:1-2.


Maybe he is dizzy from all of that circle-running?! :D

Anyhoo..

Also, keep in mind that since he is knowledgeable about Calvinist theology, he may appear to "run circles around you" confusing you more. If at any time you feel that he has not listened, it is appropriate for you to cut short the visit. The goal isn't to satisfy a "criteria" for him or anyone else or the congregation or the church body. The goal is your salvation and especially your assurance of salvation through what Christ has done for you.

Thank you for that advice... I will definately keep that in mind and do so if need be. I am not fond of being belittled intellectually - not that anyone is. I am nervous about all this (thankfully he just left for two weeks to the Phillipines, so i will have a little time to prepare for some of this), but I think it will all work out... I am trying to remind myself that this is not a battle of wits, but an effort to uncover the true, clear meaning of Scripture - which does not need wit and clever intellectual tricks to make itself clear - of that I am sure.

[Edial]

Malachi 3:6 ESV
For I the LORD do not change;therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

Just for those who would want a verse to back up the Immutability of God. There are plenty of other verses to backup this up. Some people actually hold to the view that God does change.
Of course God does not change. :)

But what do you think changed when in the OT God says that he hates the wicked, yet in the NT, after the sacrifice of his Son on the Cross for the sin of the world, God presents that he loves all, as in the Matthew text?

Thanks, :)
Ed

[Edial]

Another thing.

You could ask him: "Could the goats become sheep?"

A Calvinist would answer "No".

Calvinists agree that the wicked in the OT are the goats.

Present the following where we see that although the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God, ... through Christ, these very wicked were washed, sanctified and justified. :)
In other words, the goats became sheep. :):)

1CO 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Much changed after the Christ's sacrifice at the Cross.

God loves even the goats. :)

Thanks, :)
Ed

[DaRev]

We must also remember, though, that there are still goats and still those who will be judged as wicked and not inherit the Kingdom.

I think it's safe to say that Christ's sacrifice turned all people into sheep, but some chose to remain goats.

[Edial]

If I may add to the "all" debate. See the thing is, that pretty clearly all does not mean absolutely every single one in many contexts in the bible.

For instance "All have sinned..." Now clearly there is one very obviouse exception, Jesus. So all doesn't mean absolutely all.

That's a given.

But at that point Calvinist theology leaves the question and just makes a leap that since all doens't necessarily mean all, that then it means only the elect.

Here's the problem. While all might not quite mean all. It's never used to only mean a small bunch or a minority. Ant that's really how Calvinists use it. Ask your pastor what percentage of people in the world he beilieves are elect, are saved. If he thinks about it, I doubt he would come up with anything over maybe 10%, but possibly higher, say 25%. So this is a huge leap from all doesn't mean all, to all only means a few.

The only ways he could get higher is to adopt nonCalvinistic beliefs, like general revelation can save or that a good Muslim or Hindu could be saved or some such thing, or reject salvation through faith, but I doubt he will do those. But he does, because he doesn't think about it, take all which can have some exceptions and make it mean some or a few.

Some will try to finesse it and say well it's all because the saved come from all nations, again just ask him to show you multiple locations where all means a few from many places and he won't be able to.

So all doesn't mean all, but the meaning in Greek is not the equivalent to some or the minority or a handful either. All just doesn't fit the elect.

Marv
I should present however, that in the context of "all have sinned", the Scriptures do present that in contrast to Jesus Christ.
In other words, "all, except Christ".

RO 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Thanks, :)
Ed