Is salvation "through faith alone."

[BigNorsk]

I am trying to figure out Baptist theology and I keep running into problems. Do Baptist's teach that people are only saved by "grace alone through faith alone for Christ's sake alone" or is it taught that there are multiple paths for different people to take to be justified? I'm particularly wondering about the "faith alone" I realize that people often abbreviate the doctrine of Justificationn when they talk of it and don't include all the articles.

Secondly, do Baptists teach that it is only the individuals faith that can save or is it possible someone else's faith that saves us?

Thanks in advance.

Marv

[eldermike]

You may get many different answers to your question. Historically speaking; Southern baptists taught the doctrines of Grace that are commonly called Calvinism today. They were adopted officially in 1874 and again in the convention manual in 1918. Then came the 60's and a generation of decision/free will/works salvation preachers were unleashed on us. That teaching era ended in the late 70's and we are just now seeing the swing back to our roots.

As for other baptists, you will get different answers.

[DeaconDean]

To what purpose does it serve for you to constantly question our doctrines and beliefs?

I mean, is out of genuine looking for knowledge, or is it an opportunity to question our beliefs in comparison to Lutheran beliefs as you did in the Baptism thread?

God Bless

Till all are one.

[BigNorsk]

I was kind of hoping to hear from the overseers, those who are apt to teach. Nothing personal Dean.

Marv

[DeaconDean]

I was kind of hoping to hear from the overseers, those who are apt to teach. Nothing personal Dean.

Marv

i was honestly just wondering because every time we tell you why we believe what we believe, you want to argue or debate it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

And a little FYI: I have been a Sunday school teacher, taught the Adult class (3 Years), even though I was 20 years younger than the next youngest member of the class.

And I have also served in my church as Sunday school dir.

So I think I am able to teach.

So if you don't want my input, just say: DeaconDean is excluded from this.

JMHO

[TexasSky]

Unlike other denominations, Baptists do not answer to a "central group." The terms, generally, means a member of an evangelical protestant church that believes in individual freedom of the congregations. We do not have "Popes" or "Cardinals" or "dioceses" to tell each congregation to conduct their worship, or to provide a "statement of faith."

You will find that some Baptists who share common statements of faith join together in conventions to support projects or missions or to help one another with funding, building, teaching materials.

So no one can say, "Baptists believe this," and under one umbrella include ALL baptists.

The churches who are members of the Southern Baptist Convention, by joining the convention, are stating that they believe that Salvation is a gift of grace from God, and that the only "requirement" of salvation is faith in Christ.

As to seeking an overseer - perhaps you should post in the "ask a chaplain" section if you ONLY want to hear from pastors.

In most Southern Baptist Churches the deacons carry as much or more authority than the pastors.

[BigNorsk]

Well, frankly the miriad of Baptist Confessions are somewhat confusing and certainly not all in agreement.

Now it seems like in general there was a recognition of original sin and that all died with Adam in the early confessions. But starting around the mid 1800's there starts to be a distinction made so that say in the case of infants it really talks of a sin nature but that they are not condemned until they reach an age of moral accountability and then they are condemned when they personally commit a sin after reaching moral accountability.

And most but not all could be said to teach some version of once saved always saved, but I can remember at least one that specifically said it was possible to lose salvation.

Anyway I think that when specifically mentioning justification, all do say faith.

So I would end up with two basic classes of Baptists. Ones that would be strictly salvation is through faith. And others that say salvation is either through faith or by dying free of the penalty of sin before the age of moral accountability.

Now I don't know how many fall into each group, but it seems to me many Baptists are teaching two ways to salvation, and one doesn't seem to involve faith.

Correct?

Marv

[TexasSky]

Well, frankly the miriad of Baptist Confessions are somewhat confusing and certainly not all in agreement.

Now it seems like in general there was a recognition of original sin and that all died with Adam in the early confessions. But starting around the mid 1800's there starts to be a distinction made so that say in the case of infants it really talks of a sin nature but that they are not condemned until they reach an age of moral accountability and then they are condemned when they personally commit a sin after reaching moral accountability.

And most but not all could be said to teach some version of once saved always saved, but I can remember at least one that specifically said it was possible to lose salvation.

Anyway I think that when specifically mentioning justification, all do say faith.

So I would end up with two basic classes of Baptists. Ones that would be strictly salvation is through faith. And others that say salvation is either through faith or by dying free of the penalty of sin before the age of moral accountability.

Now I don't know how many fall into each group, but it seems to me many Baptists are teaching two ways to salvation, and one doesn't seem to involve faith.

Correct?

Marv
Actually, both require faith, and an understanding of God Himself.

God has taught that the greatest gift, and the second greatest commandment are both love. God has taught that all the law hinges on love.

God has also taught that Christ died for us, and that acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior is the key to salvation.

To say, "You will go to hell because you didn't accept Christ, even though you were a baby and had never heard the gospel, could not speak, and could not comprehend what it means to please or displease God," would be "laying a trap." God is NOT a spiteful trap layer.

Acts 16:31 says, "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved,

[BigNorsk]

I'm not understanding. I didn't see any reference to faith in the infants being saved in the Confessions, could you explain to me how faith saves the infant. I usually just hear Baptists tell me an infant cannot have faith so I'm not understanding what you said, because I don't know what faith.

Thanks.

Marv

[TexasSky]

Well, frankly the miriad of Baptist Confessions are somewhat confusing and certainly not all in agreement.

Now it seems like in general there was a recognition of original sin and that all died with Adam in the early confessions. But starting around the mid 1800's there starts to be a distinction made so that say in the case of infants it really talks of a sin nature but that they are not condemned until they reach an age of moral accountability and then they are condemned when they personally commit a sin after reaching moral accountability.

And most but not all could be said to teach some version of once saved always saved, but I can remember at least one that specifically said it was possible to lose salvation.

Anyway I think that when specifically mentioning justification, all do say faith.

So I would end up with two basic classes of Baptists. Ones that would be strictly salvation is through faith. And others that say salvation is either through faith or by dying free of the penalty of sin before the age of moral accountability.

Now I don't know how many fall into each group, but it seems to me many Baptists are teaching two ways to salvation, and one doesn't seem to involve faith.

Correct?

Marv
Though I understand what brought up your question, I disagree with your conclusion. I believe that faith is the only key to salvation - - HOWEVER - - I believe that Christ has set specific terms for who, being guilty of sin, REQUIRE salvation.


John 9:41
"Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."

Christ used the Greek word tuphlos which means "being blind, ignorant, stupid, slow of understanding"

This verse is where the belief that children who are too young to understand right from wrong are spared the judgement of God if they die as tiny infants comes from.

Not that Christ needs my support or approval of His words, but - - faith is an act of repentance, it is accepting Christ's forgiveness and grace. A child who is too young to have any understanding of God, grace, sin, etc., cannot "accept" or "reject" this grace. They are born in sin, all men are, but according to Christ, because they are blind they are not guilty.

Christ has also said that the only unpardonable sin is "rejection" of Christ. Not, "failure to accept," but "rejection." An infant does not accept nor does he reject Christ.

Once you are old enough to understand any level of "right and wrong" you are old enough to see, and to be held accountable. So a CHILD is old enough, but an infant who is incapable of more communication that "wa wa," "ma ma", "da da", does not "accept" or "reject." They exist in a beautiful balloon of wonderment.

This does not mean that salvation is not dependent upon faith.

The bible also has a history of God making exceptions for children who are too young.

Deuteronomy 1:39: "And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad --they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it."

God is not a monster who lays impossible traps.
God IS love.

[BigNorsk]

I'm not sure the monster who lays traps references, is that a part of Baptist theology or why do you keep using it? I know of several traditions that probably wouldn't agree with your exact theology on the issue but I don't know any that portray God as a monster who lays traps.

I'm also a bit wondering what you think my conclusion is because I wasn't trying to argue with you or state a conclusion at all. I was trying to figure out what you mean if you are saying an infant is saved through faith, because it seems you are saying the infant doesn't have faith so how can faith save it?

If it's saved because it's not held accountable then I don't see what that has to do with faith? If the infant is saved through faith but it can't have faith then what faith saves it?

I'm just not grasping what you are saying.

Marv

[TexasSky]

Marv,

Trying to find a way to explain this.

I suppose a better way of phrasing would be that though children are born in sin, they are also born with a blind faith. Only when they are old enough to comprehend does the faith cease to be blind.

Think of a baby and a human parent.
In the womb, the child is 100% dependent upon a parent to meet its needs.
Outside of the womb, the same child is 100% dependent upon adults to meet its needs.

That baby never questions whether someone will meet their needs. They send out the notice they need help (food, a change of clothing, cuddling), and they get help. They have to be taught to doubt help will come.

They have to cry and have the cry go unanswered.

Later, they begin to want things that are not really necessarily. Later, they will begin to doubt a lot of things about "adults".

They are not mature, they just have lost that blind faith that whenever they cry they get what they need.

Remember Herbrews 11:1, Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

A baby's faith may be the strongest of all.
We "ask" and reason and plead, a baby just trusts.

[BigNorsk]

Can I ask if you were taught this TexasSky or did you kind of work it out on your own. I just ask because I've heard repeatedly from Baptists that children shouldn't be baptised because they can't have faith and you are saying they have perfect faith, and I've never heard a Baptist before who said that children are born with faith.

I'm not saying you are wrong or anything, just it seems totally incompatible with what I've heard when Baptist complain about infant baptism and when they make the baptism dependant on the person and his faith.

That word seems is probably key. Maybe Baptist use the word faith in different senses depending on what doctrine is in view.

Anyway, if you would have a reference that would lay out what you are trying to tell me, I'd sure appreciate it. Thanks.

Marv

[DeaconDean]

Marv,

Trying to find a way to explain this.

I suppose a better way of phrasing would be that though children are born in sin, they are also born with a blind faith. Only when they are old enough to comprehend does the faith cease to be blind.

Think of a baby and a human parent.
In the womb, the child is 100% dependent upon a parent to meet its needs.
Outside of the womb, the same child is 100% dependent upon adults to meet its needs.

That baby never questions whether someone will meet their needs. They send out the notice they need help (food, a change of clothing, cuddling), and they get help. They have to be taught to doubt help will come.

They have to cry and have the cry go unanswered.

Later, they begin to want things that are not really necessarily. Later, they will begin to doubt a lot of things about "adults".

They are not mature, they just have lost that blind faith that whenever they cry they get what they need.

Remember Herbrews 11:1, Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

A baby's faith may be the strongest of all.
We "ask" and reason and plead, a baby just trusts.

Traditionally, this age of accountability thing is ultimately related back to Judaism. At the age of 12, through the Bar Mitza, many youths were considered as adults in many respects. So this is quite often a misunderstood thing that is closely associated with Baptists.

Again, another falicy.

What the age accountability says according to Baptist line of thought is that the age of accountability occurs when a child, regardless of age, is able to discern not only right from wrong, but spiritually what is right and what is wrong from the Bibles teaching.

Children mature at different rates. It has been proven that little girls mature at a different rate than little boys. So a little girl may be able to make a decision for Christ at an earlier age than boys.

And in strictest technial terms, the age of accountability happens when a child makes the decision for Christ. No longer does the parent become answerable for the sins/actions of the child, they are answerable to God for their actions.

As far as "Is salvation "through faith alone," we tend to believe what the Bible says:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." -Eph. 2:8-9 (KJV)

It is God's grace that saves us through our faith in the risen Son of God, Jesus Christ.

Of course, thats not including the other theological issues that become involved.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[BBAS 64]

Well, frankly the miriad of Baptist Confessions are somewhat confusing and certainly not all in agreement.

Now it seems like in general there was a recognition of original sin and that all died with Adam in the early confessions. But starting around the mid 1800's there starts to be a distinction made so that say in the case of infants it really talks of a sin nature but that they are not condemned until they reach an age of moral accountability and then they are condemned when they personally commit a sin after reaching moral accountability.

And most but not all could be said to teach some version of once saved always saved, but I can remember at least one that specifically said it was possible to lose salvation.

Anyway I think that when specifically mentioning justification, all do say faith.

So I would end up with two basic classes of Baptists. Ones that would be strictly salvation is through faith. And others that say salvation is either through faith or by dying free of the penalty of sin before the age of moral accountability.

Now I don't know how many fall into each group, but it seems to me many Baptists are teaching two ways to salvation, and one doesn't seem to involve faith.

Correct?

Marv

Good Day, Marv

Let me first say I love the quotes you have used from the net bible....

As to the question it is a good one. The change you see in historical baptist thought was wrought by men who fell in to the Finney trap IMHO. Who denied the doctrine of justification though faith along with some others.

The biggest delta you see is due to an unbiblical idea forced upon scripture called "the age of accountabiity".

In Him,

Bill

[DeaconDean]

Good Day, Marv

Let me first say I love the quotes you have used from the net bible....

As to the question it is a good one. The change you see in historical baptist thought was wrought by men who fell in to the Finney trap IMHO. Who denied the doctrine of justification though faith along with some others.

The biggest delta you see is due to an unbiblical idea forced upon scripture called "the age of accountabiity".

In Him,

Bill

Here is a great Systematic that did not fall under Finneyism:

http://www.founders.org/library/boyce1/ch34.html (Faith)

http://www.founders.org/library/boyce1/ch35.html (Sanctification)

James Petigru Boyce, Abstract of Systematic Theology, Joseph-Emerson-Brown Professor of Systematic Theology in The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
First published in 1887

God Bless

Till all are one.

[DeaconDean]

How about Boyce's "Abstract of Principles?"

Abstract of Principles
1858

I. THE SCRIPTURES
The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by inspiration of God, and are the only sufficient, certain and authoritative rule of all saving knowledge, faith and obedience.

II. GOD
There is but one God, the Maker, Preserver and Ruler of all things, having in and of himself, all perfections, and being infinite in them all; and to Him all creatures owe the highest love, reverence and obedience.

III. THE TRINITY
God is revealed to us as Father, Son and Holy Spirit each with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence or being.

IV. PROVIDENCE
God from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs, and governs all creatures and all events; yet so as not in any wise to be the author or approver of sin nor to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures.

V. ELECTION
Election is God's eternal choice of some persons unto everlasting life - not because of foreseen merit in them, but of his mere mercy in Christ - in consequence of which choice they are called, justified and glorified.

VI. THE FALL OF MAN
God originally created man in His own image, and free from sin; but, through the temptation of Satan, he transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original holiness and righteousness; whereby his posterity inherit a nature corrupt and wholly opposed to God and His law, are under condemnation, and as soon as they are capable of moral action, become actual transgressors.

VII. THE MEDIATOR
Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is the divinely appointed mediator between God and man. Having taken upon Himself human nature, yet without sin, He perfectly fulfilled the law, suffered and died upon the cross for the salvation of sinners. He was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended to His Father, at whose right hand He ever liveth to make intercession for His people. He is the only Mediator, the Prophet, Priest and King of the Church, and Sovereign of the Universe.

VIII. REGENERATION
Regeneration is a change of heart, wrought by the Holy Spirit, who quickeneth the dead in trespasses and sins enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the Word of God, and renewing their whole nature, so that they love and practice holiness. It is a work of God's free and special grace alone.

IX. REPENTANCE
Repentance is an evangelical grace, wherein a person being, by the Holy Spirit, made sensible of the manifold evil of his sin, humbleth himself for it, with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self-abhorrence, with a purpose and endeavor to walk before God so as to please Him in all things.

X. FAITH
Saving faith is the belief, on God's authority of whatsoever is revealed in His Word concerning Christ; accepting and resting upon Him alone for justification and eternal life. It is wrought in the heart by the Holy Spirit, and is accompanied by all other saving graces, and leads to a life of holiness.

XI. JUSTIFICATION
Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal of sinners, who believe in Christ, from all sin, through the satisfaction that Christ has made; not for anything wrought in them or done by them; but on account of the obedience and satisfaction of Christ, they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith.

XII. SANCTIFICATION
Those who have been regenerated are also sanctified, by God's word and Spirit dwelling in them. This sanctification is progressive through the supply of Divine strength, which all saints seek to obtain, pressing after a heavenly life in cordial obedience to all Christ's commands.

XIII. PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS
Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere to the end; and though they may fall, through neglect and temptation, into sin, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, bring reproach on the Church, and temporal judgments on themselves, yet they shall be renewed again unto repentance, and be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

XIV. THE CHURCH
The Lord Jesus is the Head of the Church, which is composed of all his true disciples, and in Him is invested supremely all power for its government. According to his commandment, Christians are to associate themselves into particular societies or churches; and to each of these churches he hath given needful authority for administering that order, discipline and worship which he hath appointed. The regular officers of a Church are Bishops or Elders, and Deacons.

XV. BAPTISM
Baptism is an ordinance of the Lord Jesus, obligatory upon every believer, wherein he is immersed in water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, as a sign of his fellowship with the death and resurrection of Christ, of remission of sins, and of his giving himself up to God, to live and walk in newness of life. It is prerequisite to church fellowship, and to participation in the Lord's Supper.

XVI. THE LORD'S SUPPER
The Lord's Supper is an ordinance of Jesus Christ, to be administered with the elements of bread and wine, and to be Observed by his churches till the end of the world. It is in no sense a sacrifice, but is designed to commemorate his death, to confirm the faith and other graces of Christians, and to be a bond, pledge and renewal of their communion with him, and of their church fellowship.

XVII. THE LORD'S DAY
The Lord's Day is a Christian institution for regular observance, and should be employed in exercises of worship and spiritual devotion, both public and private, resting from worldly employments and amusements, works of necessity and mercy only excepted.

XVIII. LIBERTY OF CONSCIENCE
God alone is Lord of the conscience, and He hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are in anything contrary to His word, or not contained in it. Civil magistrates being ordained of God, subjection in all lawful things commanded by them ought to be yielded by us in the Lord, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

XIV. THE RESURRECTION
The bodies of men after death return to dust, but their spirits return immediately to God - the righteous to rest with Him; the wicked, to be reserved under darkness to the judgment. At the last day, the bodies of all the dead, both just and unjust, will be raised.

XX. THE JUDGMENT
God hath appointed a day, wherein he will judge the world by Jesus Christ, when every one shall receive according to his deeds: the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment; the righteous, into everlasting life.

http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/aop/english.htm

Love this one.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[R.J.S]

A baby's faith may be the strongest of all.

If a baby can have faith why can it not be baptised?

[TexasSky]

I am trying to figure out Baptist theology and I keep running into problems. Do Baptist's teach that people are only saved by "grace alone through faith alone for Christ's sake alone" or is it taught that there are multiple paths for different people to take to be justified? I'm particularly wondering about the "faith alone" I realize that people often abbreviate the doctrine of Justificationn when they talk of it and don't include all the articles.

Secondly, do Baptists teach that it is only the individuals faith that can save or is it possible someone else's faith that saves us?

Thanks in advance.

Marv
Yes. Baptists believe that Salvation is a gift of God, not something we "earn".


Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

The easiest way to explain this is to think of a criminal and a king.

If the punishment for a crime in ancient days was death, and a person was guilty of that crime, the only thing that could save that person was a royal pardon. Royal pardons were gifts from the king, and could not be earned. You could not "erase" a crime that was worthy of death.

God has determined that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." God has told us that, "The wages of sin is death." Therefore, all of us are guilty of a sin worthy of death. The only thing that will spare us is a pardon from the King of Kings. These pardons are offered to us through the love of Christ.

Now, we are given a chance to ACCEPT the gracious mercy of our King or to REFUSE that royal pardon.

No one will ever be "good enough" to earn salvation.

However, that does NOT mean we just don't try.

We also believe that someone who has no desire to please God cannot possibly truly have given their life over to God.

[TexasSky]

Marv,

To answer you, I have formally studied theology. And yes, you'll find that every Baptist church is a little different in what it teaches, and you'll also find that many baptists have no idea what the doctorine of their own church is. (Sadly, most Christians really do not know their own church doctorines, no matter what their denominations are.)

And yes, we DO object to an infant Baptism on many grounds. We believe that Baptism is an act of obedience, and that it is a profession of faith in Christ. We do not believe it is what saves you. For example, if a man comes to Christ in the battlefields of Iraq, and commits his life to Christ, and dies before getting baptized, we believe that man is saved. We believe that when a man CAN be baptized, they should, as an obedience to God and a profession to men, but we do not believe that without it you are going to hell.

If you Baptize someone else, as in the case of a parent baptizing a child, it is the PARENT who is professing faith, not the child. It is NOT an act of obedince, nor is it a profession of the child's faith. It is, at that point, all about the parents.

Whether a Baptist believes in grace until the age of consent or not, all Baptists believe that Baptism is part of publically proclaiming Christ to men. A baby being baptized is not proclaiming anything. Christ was sinless before He approached John, yet, Christ publicaly acknowledged His own obedicence to God by humbling Himself and being baptized.

A baby who has the "blind faith" born of not knowing anything, cannot make that kind of profession. And as Deacon Dave explained, age of accountability is NOT about a certain age. It is about that time in your life when your eyes, heart, mind, are open enough to understand "right from wrong". It is much younger than many people stop to think about.

The problem with infant baptism is that MANY adults walk this earth today who have absolutely no relationship with Christ, but falsely assume they are saved because someone baptized them ages ago. Because of this false assurance, they walk the earth without giving God another thought, and if He enters their mind they shrug Him off with an attitude of "My parents took care of that."

If it was so easy that all we had to do was pray over, and sprinkle water over the unsaved to give them Salvation we would all be sneaking into the rooms of those we loved, no matter what their age, and doing this. Also, you are putting the power of salvation into the hands of men with that.

[TimRout]

The Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches in Canada holds to salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

[Levahddi]

Sorry for coming in late to the discussion, just curious about a few things.

Marv,

The problem with infant baptism is that MANY adults walk this earth today who have absolutely no relationship with Christ, but falsely assume they are saved because someone baptized them ages ago. Because of this false assurance, they walk the earth without giving God another thought, and if He enters their mind they shrug Him off with an attitude of "My parents took care of that."



If it was so easy that all we had to do was pray over, and sprinkle water over the unsaved to give them Salvation we would all be sneaking into the rooms of those we loved, no matter what their age, and doing this. Also, you are putting the power of salvation into the hands of men with that.

What of those who accept christ and then leave the church?
What role does God play in the believer's baptism?

Peace be with you

[BigNorsk]

The Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches in Canada holds to salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Thanks for that, I didn't see it earlier.

So do you also hold that infants are saved that way, through faith alone?

If so is it their faith or their parents' faith?

If it is their faith, do you baptize them?

Marv

[TimRout]

Thanks for that, I didn't see it earlier.

So do you also hold that infants are saved that way, through faith alone?

If so is it their faith or their parents' faith?

If it is their faith, do you baptize them?

MarvHey Marv,

While every evangelical Baptist I know believes that humans are born sinners, and that babies thus possess a sin nature, many of us also believe that God does not hold people accountable for their sins if they are either too young, or too developmentally disabled to comprehend their fallen state and God's gospel solution. As I'm sure you know, there is limited biblical support for this position. Some reflect on the apparent eternal destiny of king David's dead baby [2 Samuel 12:23], or Yahweh's unique preservation of the "simple" [Psalm 116:6], or even the requirement that a person understand his crimes before guilt can be ascribed [Leviticus 5:4]. Unfortunately, each of the above arguments suffers from a common fault, in that our subject is not directly framed within the primary contexts of the afore mentioned citations.

How then, do conservative Baptists (and other evangelicals) prove that babies and developmentally disabled persons are volitionally innocent before the Lord? We don't. In fact, most of us just take it on faith that God will do the right thing. This leaves open the logical possibility, though, that the "right thing" might involve sending some or all of these dear ones to hell.

Nevertheless, we are not suggesting that most people are saved through faith and babies are saved through some other means. Rather, we are suggesting that all people must be saved through faith, and babies don't need to be saved because their sinfulness cannot be counted against them. To be clear, though, I do not argue for a specfic "age of understanding", such that (for example) all seven year olds are destined for heaven, but all eight year olds are under the curse. The Lord knows the heart and judges each one in accordance with His perfect knowledge.

And no, Baptists do not sprinkle babies. We believe baptism is an ordinance (as opposed to a sacrament) that symbolizes a person's choice to follow Jesus. Thus we practice believer's baptism by immersion.

NOTE:
"Sacrament" - a religious rite that is believed to impart spiritual virtue or grace.

"Ordinance" - a symbolic rite that is performed out of obedience to God, but imparts no spiritual virtue or grace.

[BigNorsk]

Thanks for your reply.

You say children possess a sin nature, so you are saying that original sin is not really counted as sin for the person but rather just a blemish on our nature? Or is it both sin and a blemish on our nature?

Marv

[DeaconDean]

Thanks for your reply.

You say children possess a sin nature, so you are saying that original sin is not really counted as sin for the person but rather just a blemish on our nature? Or is it both sin and a blemish on our nature?

Marv

Why is children and infants and the doctine of indwelling sin such a problem with you?

I was taught in seminary that infants and children who die even though they do have indwelling sin by way of Adam, and even though they haven't reached that age where they know what is right and wrong from a Biblical perspective, when they die, they are regenerated and made ready to enter heaven.

So whats the big deal Marv?

God Bless

Till all are one.

[PaladinGirl]

This Baptist certainly does believe in salvation by grace alone through faith alone. :thumbsup:

[BigNorsk]

Why is children and infants and the doctine of indwelling sin such a problem with you?

I was taught in seminary that infants and children who die even though they do have indwelling sin by way of Adam, and even though they haven't reached that age where they know what is right and wrong from a Biblical perspective, when they die, they are regenerated and made ready to enter heaven.

So whats the big deal Marv?

God Bless

Till all are one.

I was asking for a clarification, it was not clear to me that part of his statement, hence the question marks.

Marv

[DeaconDean]

I was asking for a clarification, it was not clear to me that part of his statement, hence the question marks.

Marv

It seems we had this discussion once before in that "Baptism" thread you started.

That is why I asked.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[BigNorsk]

Original sin was not discussed in that thread that I can remember Dean.

And the statement he made seems to conflict with the systematics text that you posted that clearly said people are under condemnation from original sin.

Marv

[DeaconDean]

Original sin was not discussed in that thread that I can remember Dean.

And the statement he made seems to conflict with the systematics text that you posted that clearly said people are under condemnation from original sin.

Marv

So I'll repeat my previous answer:

I was taught in seminary that infants and children who die even though they do have indwelling sin by way of Adam, and even though they haven't reached that age where they know what is right and wrong from a Biblical perspective, when they die, they are regenerated and made ready to enter heaven.


Or are you one of those who stand with Augustine and the statement that is attributed to him:

Augustine tells us that the whole human race is a "mass of perdition"; that we inherit from Adam and Eve not only their sin but their guilt as well; that original sin is rather like a spiritual venereal disease passed from generation to generation through the concupiscence of the sex act; that the only "cure" is baptism and that the road to hell is paved with the bones of unbaptized infants --

And the only way to remove that "orginal" sin is to baptize them?

The Philadelphia Baptist Confession of Faith of 1742 states:

Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit,10 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc10.htm#fn10) who worketh when and where, and how He pleaseth;11 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc10.htm#fn11) so also are all other elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

10. Jn 3:3,5-6.
11. Jn 3:8.


The Philadelphia Baptist Confession of Faith of 1742, Chapter X, Of Effectual Calling, Section III

http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc10.htm

Oscar Mink wrote:

Infants are the children of wrath the same as others, but God can and does effect regeneration in the hearts of all who die in infancy. The God of the Bible, Who is verily the God of sovereign grace Baptists, cannot know a problem; for He "worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" (Eph. 1:11). So, He can and does communicate to His elect and dying infants all that is needful for their heavenly entrance...David, speaking of infants said: "...They go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies" (Ps. 58:3). That is, as soon as they are born, they painfully manifest what they were in the womb, and that was a sinner by nature. Thank God for His sovereign grace, and for all who teach it. God’s grace is never less than absolutely sovereign, it never leaves His August throne limping, and can never be enfeebled by the mock resistance of the puny and utterly depraved will of man. It is the sovereign grace of God that reaches the dying infant with quickening power, and translates its blood washed soul to its Christ merited place before God.

Oscar Mink, A Reply To An Arminian.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[BigNorsk]

So is it that Arminian and Calvinistic Baptists disagree concerning that? Is that why it was a reply to an Arminian?

I would just as soon not go into what I believe because I am not here to debate, I'm trying to find out what Baptists believe.

Marv

[DeaconDean]

I would just as soon not go into what I believe because I am not here to debate, I'm trying to find out what Baptists believe.

How many different variations of Lutherianism are there? Hum...

With all the different variations on the "Baptist" thing, thats like looking at a glass of marbles, guessing how many are in there, and then trying to guess how many different variations of color there are.

It is sufficent for me, and it is included in the "What Baptists Believe" thread, that regeneration of "elect infants" happens at their death.

Nuff said...............!


3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=John+3:3-6)John 3:8 (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=John+3:8) )


http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc10.html

Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, who worketh when and where, and how He pleaseth; so also are all other elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc10.htm

God Bless

Till all are one.

[LivingWordUnity]

Traditionally, this age of accountability thing is ultimately related back to Judaism. At the age of 12, through the Bar Mitza, many youths were considered as adults in many respects. That's interesting. The purpose of Bar Mitzvah sounds a lot like why Catholics have the Sacrament of Confirmation.