Silly question on repetitive prayers

[InTheCloud]

I'm reading the Way of the Pilgrim and the Jesus Prayer takes a very important part of that Book.

The fundangelical (fundamentalist/evangelicals) protestants usually shun repetitive prayers. The Jesus prayer is a repetivitive prayer.

Since the Orthodox Church had read the Bible in Greek from the beginning, and the Gospels were in Greek, and the Greeks Christians promoved the Jesus Prayer and wrote most parts of the PHILOKALIA, I'm sure there must by a mistake somewere from the protestants.
I would like to know the Orthodox reading of Matthew.
Thanks.

[Vasileios]

Keep reading! :) There is a discussion somewhere in the book where this very question is addressed wonderfully.

I'm not sure if it is in the second part though and if that is included in the version you have.

[Lukaris]

In the Orthodox Study Bible it is mentioned that our Saviour is condemning vanity in the repetition of prayer not repetition itself & also hypocrites who recite long prayers (not long prayers per se). After all, a prayer of our Saviour is a whole chapter of John 17, King Solomon prays a long prayer in 2 Chronicles 6 (& also in one of Kings), Psalm 119 (118 LXX) is 176 stanzas etc. For more info on the use of the Jesus prayer see St Ignatius Brianchaninov http://www.philokalia.org/on_the_prayer_of_jesus.htm Btw, The Pilgrim is great & hope this post is helpful. Umm, did not realize link posted above is audio at first, the book On the Prayer of Jesus by St Ignatius Brianchaninov can be ordered with Isbn # 10-0892541202 or Isbn # 978-0892541201 & can be found on Amazon.

[Breaking Babylon]

Matthew 14:36-39: "Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You will." ...Again He went away and prayed, saying the same words.

Revelation 4:8 "And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME."

[Monica, child of God]

I have been told that the correct translation of that verse is not "vain repitition" but "do not pray with many words."

Matthew 6:7 (KJV)
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Matthew 6:7 (NIV)
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

This is not an endorsement of the NIV which has its own translation problems.

M.

[jckstraw72]

theres a verse somewhere in Sirach that says pretty much the same thing as the Matthew verse, but if the Fundagelicals were consistent on their critique of things like the Rosary and the Jesus Prayer then they would never pray for the same thing twice.

Of course we know you can never pray for mercy enough.

[jckstraw72]

yeah ive also heard that its more like "vain babblings"

[SeraphimSarov]

....if the Fundagelicals were consistent on their critique of things like the Rosary and the Jesus Prayer then they would never pray for the same thing twice.

Kind of hard to pray unceasingly without ever repeating yourself.

[ClementofRome]

NRSV: "...do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do..."

JB: "...do not babble as the pagans do..."

NEB: "...do not go babbling on, like the heathen..."

NLT: "...don’t babble on and on as people of other religions do..."

Sounds like random ramblings to me.....NOT repetition! :)

[Shubunkin]

We discussed this in Catechism class. I think even vain repetitions would be not right, as that would be praying many meaningless words without a thought behind them, but only to impress bystanders. That's another take on this.

[HisKid1973]

I'm not into book prayers and pray more what I feel the Holy Spirit puts in my heart..But as anyone with kids knows you will have repetitive prayers...;)
shalom..kim

[Shubunkin]

I'm not into book prayers and pray more what I feel the Holy Spirit puts in my heart..But as anyone with kids knows you will have repetitive prayers...;)
shalom..kim
The prayer books teach us how to pray, and also when we are unable to pray with words in our sorrows, then the prayer books are invaluable. I need to use prayer books, and let me tell you, I've been praying wrong before coming to Orthodoxy - terribly, and I am ashamed to say that no one taught me how to pray.

[HisKid1973]

The prayer books teach us how to pray, and also when we are unable to pray with words in our sorrows, then the prayer books are invaluable. I need to use prayer books, and let me tell you, I've been praying wrong before coming to Orthodoxy - terribly, and I am ashamed to say that no one taught me how to pray.

Hey Sis we're all still learning.. I pray with understanding most times other in the spirit...I just weep sometimes when I in intercession for others..Groanings I don't understand..blessings in Christ to you dear sister...K

[InTheCloud]

I have been told that the correct translation of that verse is not "vain repitition" but "do not pray with many words."


yeah ive also heard that its more like "vain babblings"


Reading Catholic Bibles in spanish, the traduction used for vain repetition is palabrería, that is a literal translation of a Greek word I do not remember well and was used in the Bible (bagaloteo?). Palabrería means to speak, rant or babble with so many empty words.
Protestant bibles in Spanish use the "vain repetitions" expresion despite the fact that is a exact word in Spanish for the Greek word used in the Bible. So the fundangelicals are deliverately translating the Bible into Spanish choosing words to their liking to make their point. While they often rant and babble when praying, just look at many TV preachers.

[Shubunkin]

Hey Sis we're all still learning.. I pray with understanding most times other in the spirit...I just weep sometimes when I in intercession for others..Groanings I don't understand..blessings in Christ to you dear sister...K
You are not understanding what I'm saying. It's okay.... I was there at one time, too.

[HisKid1973]

You are not understanding what I'm saying. It's okay.... I was there at one time, too.


Please explain....:)..I am always open to learn..I have been walking with Christ for 35 years and am still learning.. I always will be till I see Him face to face.....The glass is darkly for me as us all..shalom..Kim

[MoNiCa4316]

:wave: HisKid1973, I feel the same way :)

By the way, I don't think the Jesus prayer falls into the 'vain repetition' category if you mean it. The way I interpret that part in the Bible is that you shouldn't 'babble' because the Father already knows what we need...and prayers should be genuine and come from the heart, not be mere words.
I use the Jesus prayer sometimes and I think it's a good prayer. I never got into book prayers though...except 'Our Father' from the Bible :)

peace

monica

[Orthosdoxa]

Phil Thompson to the rescue (rus you'll appreciate this :))

http://philthompson.net/pages/faq/10.html#here

We're certainly not expected to limit our prayer lives to liturgy and prayerbooks. The written prayers and songs of the Church don't circumscribe my prayer life; they provide a foundation and jumping-off place for pouring out my own heart to God: a wider, more firmly-established launchpad than I've ever had before. The quality of my prayers no longer depends on my subjective eloquence or feeling on a given morning. Prayer becomes a daily act of faithful obedience to God, and it's not so important whether I had a particularly fervent or satisfying time of worship and prayer. Since I am not the audience, the question I ask after prayer and worship isn't, "How good was it?" but rather, "How did I do?" In a way it's nothing new to use the same prayers every day. I've always kept a list of ongoing prayer requests. And for many years I've used the Lord's Prayer as an outline to keep my prayers on track so I'd remember all the ways I mean to pray.
To my surprise, the more I pray the same prayers daily, the more meaningful they become. An unexpected benefit, too, of using the prayers of the early Christians, is that in becoming part of me they are shaping the way I think and worship at all times.
G.K. Chesterton had this to say about repetition: The recurrences of the universe rose to the maddening rhythm of an incantation, and I began to see an idea. A child kicks his legs rhythmically through excess, not absence, of life. Because children have abounding vitality, because they are in spirit fierce and free, therefore they want things repeated and unchanged. They always say, 'Do it again'; and the grown-up person does it again until he is nearly dead. For grown-up people are not strong enough to exult in monotony. But perhaps God is strong enough to exult in monotony.
It is possible that God says every morning, 'Do it again' to the sun; and every evening 'Do it again' to the moon. It may not be automatic necessity that makes all daisies alike; it may be that God makes every daisy separately, but has never got tired of making them. It may be that He has the eternal appetite of infancy; for we have sinned and grown old, and our Father is younger than we.
The repetition in Nature may not be a mere recurrence; it may be a theatrical encore. I had always vaguely felt facts to be miracles in the sense that they are wonderful: now I began to think of miracles in the stricter sense that they were willful. I meant that they were, or might be, repeated exercise of some will.
(Orthodoxy, pg 60-61)
Tito Colliander said, Frequent repetition is important: with frequent wingbeats a bird soars high above the clouds; the swimmer must repeat his strokes countless times before he reaches the desired shore. But if the bird ceases to fly, it must be content to dwell among the mists of the earth. And close beneath the swimmer lurk dark and threatening depths.
(Way of the Ascetics, pg 68)
In the Protestant world I was raised in, this was a biggie that "proved" the Catholics "weren't really Christians" - that they used repetitive, pre-written prayers, ie, "vain repetitions". A couple things I wish I would have realized back then.

1 - Protestants use pre-written prayers, too- they're called hymns.
2 - If the hymns becomes "meaningless", ie, the words are being sung with no meaning or belief - is it the hymn's fault or the person's fault?
3 - These prayers (hymns) are often quite repetitive. One of my favorites from my Protestant days:

Father, I adore You. Lay my life before You. How I love You.
Jesus, I adore You. Lay my life before You. How I love You.
Spirit, I adore You. Lay my life before You. How I love You.

We often sung this over and over and over.

4 - at least in the conservative Baptist world, the spoken prayers often followed something of a liturgical format as well. "Lord, I just want to thank you for sending your Son to die on the Cross. Lord, I just praise you for your great love for us. Father, I just want to thank you too that we can all gather here together tonight in your name. Lord, tonight our brother ___________ is hurting. Please help him with _____________. (and all the other requests, too.) Again Lord, thank you for your mercy. In Jesus name, amen.

The prayers hardly EVER strayed from that basic format.

So Protestants who want to smugly point the finger at people for their "vain repetitions" perhaps need to look in the mirror... and then reconsider the meaning of the phrase. It is not the "repetitions" part that is the problem. It is the "vain"!! And ANYONE can fall into that. We must be vigilant to keep our minds on Christ, and not let our minds wander while we pray. It can happen JUST as much in a made up prayer as in a pre-written prayer - perhaps more, depending on your personality, because some people, while praying in public, like to use pretty words. I always felt pressure to make the prayer sound good when I was in that world, and people would tell me how beautiful it was afterwards. If nobody did, I'd feel like I failed. Not saying that's true for EVERYONE, but I know I'm far from alone.

Another thing about pre-written prayers is that they are written by the holy men and women of Church history - people farther along the path than I am, or perhaps will ever be. These prayers teach me to pray. I am not performing - I am simply joining my simple voice to the prayers that the Church has prayed for centuries.

[SeraphimSarov]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Orthosdoxa again.

Argh!

[Mytheodos]

"Prayer that repeats itself"
By Theophan the recluse

It often happens that no inner activity occupies a person during the fulfilment of outward prayer duties,so that his life remains soulless.
How can we avoid this?
Into every duty a God -fearing heart must be put,
a heart constantly permeated by the thoughts of God;
and this will be the door through which the soul will enter into active life.
All endeavour must be directed towards the ceaseless
thought of God,towards the constant awareness of His presence;
'Seek the Lord...Seek his face constantly(Ps.civ.4 sept.)
It is on this basis that sobriety and inner prayer rest.
God is everywhere;see that your thoughts too are always with God.
How can this be done?
Thoughts jostle one another like swarming gnats,and emotions follow on the thoughts.
In order to make their thought hold to one thing,the Fathers used to accustom themselves to the continual repetition of a short prayer,and from this habit of constant repetition this small prayer clung to the tongue in such a way that it repeated itself of its own accord.
In this manner their thought clung to the prayer and,through the prayer,to the constant rememberance of God.
Once this habit has been acquired,the prayer holds us in the rememberance of God,and the rememberance of God holds us in prayer;they mutually support each other.
Here,then,is a way of walking before God.
Inner prayer begins when we establish our attention in the heart,and from the heart offer prayer to God.
Spiritual activity starts when we stand with attention in the heart in recollection of the lord,rejecting every other thought that tries to enter in.

[MoNiCa4316]

Mytheodos, that’s a good way of looking at it :) we are told to pray constantly. I guess it takes quite a bit of spiritual discipline to repeat the Jesus prayer many times yet still keep it meaningful. That’s pretty difficult for me. I try to keep my mind on God but without using words - unless I have words, that is. But I like the idea of the ‘Jesus prayer’.

Orthosdoxa, hehe I’m Protestant but I don’t think that repetitive prayers are wrong..only the vain ;) I see what you mean about hymns. In fact, I use my church’s songs and hymns as prayers (with music :)). They are not my words, but I mean them. However, when I pray at home, I don’t use written prayers, for one reason...I tried that once, and after a while it became really ‘mechanical’. It got to the point that I was saying the words but thinking about something else entirely. Obviously that was my own fault. But I like using my own prayers because then I’m forced to concentrate. I don’t pay much attention to the words, in fact sometimes my grammar is so off that I think only God would understand what I’m saying, LOL! But I’m focused on the meaning, so at least that’s good. Another thing I like about that is that sometimes I feel the Holy Spirit leading me to pray for someone/something, and since it’s my own prayer I can easily do that.

Concerning praying with people and using ‘pretty words’, that’s something that I used to struggle with a lot...I always felt like my prayers weren’t good because they weren’t especially eloquent. So I understand what you’re saying here. But one day, I heard someone say a very simple prayer that was very heartfelt and ‘real’...and that helped me let go.

4 - at least in the conservative Baptist world, the spoken prayers often followed something of a liturgical format as well. "Lord, I just want to thank you for sending your Son to die on the Cross. Lord, I just praise you for your great love for us. Father, I just want to thank you too that we can all gather here together tonight in your name. Lord, tonight our brother ___________ is hurting. Please help him with _____________. (and all the other requests, too.) Again Lord, thank you for your mercy. In Jesus name, amen.

Haha I know what you mean here. I know some people who pray like that. It’s easy to get into the habit of using a particular format, especially if you thank God for the same things every day...there’s nothing wrong with that, as long as you mean what you say and it’s not mechanical. But some people, like my pastor, don’t seem to follow any format whatsoever and all their prayers sound different. Maybe it depends on the church to a degree...for example I imagine that Pentecostals, who are really into the Holy Spirit leading their prayers, are more ‘random’ so to speak...once, I prayed with a charismatic friend and half of her prayer was in English and half in tongues...lol!

[SeraphimSarov]

But I like using my own prayers because then I’m forced to concentrate. I don’t pay much attention to the words, in fact sometimes my grammar is so off that I think only God would understand what I’m saying, LOL! But I’m focused on the meaning, so at least that’s good.

What precludes you from focusing on the meaning of prayers in a prayerbook? Do you ever pray the Lord's prayer?

[Monica, child of God]

Argh!

repped her for you.

M.

[MoNiCa4316]

What precludes you from focusing on the meaning of prayers in a prayerbook?

At first, nothing, but after a few weeks it tends to just become words for me.

Do you ever pray the Lord's prayer?

Yes, and I used to have the same problem with it, but not anymore...I read something about it that made me think and now it has lots of meaning for me. Not only that but it's a prayer that Jesus Himself said :) and it contains exactly what we need to say to God. It's a really useful prayer, and brings me closer to Him.

[SeraphimSarov]

Yes, and I used to have the same problem with it, but not anymore...I read something about it that made me think and now it has lots of meaning for me. Not only that but it's a prayer that Jesus Himself said :) and it contains exactly what we need to say to God. It's a really useful prayer, and brings me closer to Him.

So what's stopping you from doing that same thing for prayers in prayer books? I suggest to you that, if you don't already, you should try to pray the Psalms. These are prayers straight out of the Bible, divinely inspired. The Psalter is the ultimate prayerbook. And after all, it's what Jesus used. :)

[HisKid1973]

[quote=MoNiCa
Yes, and I used to have the same problem with it, but not anymore...I read something about it that made me think and now it has lots of meaning for me. Not only that but it's a prayer that Jesus Himself said :) and it contains exactly what we need to say to God. It's a really useful prayer, and brings me closer to Him.[/quote]

Hey sis thanks for your thought.. I use the Lord's prayer as a format for my own..I start off with praise and adoration and thanksgiving..you know what I mean...Since my health has disabled me( try not to fall off any rail cars) I have really put alot of time in to prayer..Learning to pray without ceasing in a way..I sorta check in when I awake and just maintain a quietness through out the day an pray as the Holy Spirit bring names to my remembrance..Sometimes the burdens are heavy and all I can do is weep.. I pray for many people I meet on here and at my church and neighborhood..Blessings in Christ to you dear sister as you desire to walk deeper in Christ our Saviour..shalom..Kim

PS..Like another brother said praying the scriptures and the psalms open up and expand your faith..Praying God's promises and thanksgiving..David was a man after God's heart and really poured out his heart with some of the struggles we face today..Like there was times I felt like I was in a mirey pit of clay...

[MoNiCa4316]

So what's stopping you from doing that same thing for prayers in prayer books? I suggest to you that, if you don't already, you should try to pray the Psalms. These are prayers straight out of the Bible, divinely inspired. The Psalter is the ultimate prayerbook. And after all, it's what Jesus used. :)

Sometimes, I do use the Psalms :) I just don't make it a rule to pray the same thing every day. If I'm reading the Psalms and there is something relevant to my situation, I use it. Otherwise, I just use my own words. I do see the value of praying from the Bible though (or the saints). Maybe this sounds childish, lol but I like using my own words because it's more personal, like I'm actually talking to Him. But there's nothing wrong with written prayers, I just can't imagine using them all the time.
As Orthodox Christians, do you use your own words too, or only written prayers? Or simply both? ;)

[MoNiCa4316]

Hey sis thanks for your thought.. I use the Lord's prayer as a format for my own..I start off with praise and adoration and thanksgiving..you know what I mean...Since my health has disabled me( try not to fall off any rail cars) I have really put alot of time in to prayer..Learning to pray without ceasing in a way..I sorta check in when I awake and just maintain a quietness through out the day an pray as the Holy Spirit bring names to my remembrance..Sometimes the burdens are heavy and all I can do is weep.. I pray for many people I meet on here and at my church and neighborhood..Blessings in Christ to you dear sister as you desire to walk deeper in Christ our Saviour..shalom..Kim

PS..Like another brother said praying the scriptures and the psalms open up and expand your faith..Praying God's promises and thanksgiving..David was a man after God's heart and really poured out his heart with some of the struggles we face today..Like there was times I felt like I was in a mirey pit of clay...

:wave: That's a great idea to use the Lord's Prayer as a format...well usually I start off with repentance though, and then go on to praise and thanksgiving..and the rest of it. I think prayer is so important, it's probably one of the most important things we could do as Christians...it really connects us with God and helps us grow. Especially if we do it a lot :) it even gets easier to resist temptation and to stay open to the Holy Spirit all day. It's a great idea to start your day off with prayer! I should really do that more...just keeping your mind on God from morning to evening :thumbsup:
sometimes I feel a burden to pray for people too; it's awesome how the Lord uses that and hears us when we intercede for others.

That's also something I love about the Psalms, how David (and the others) were so open about their struggles and always called on the Lord for help. I can definitely relate to many of the things written there.

God bless!

monica

[buzuxi02]

The actual greek word in Matt 6.7 is "batologeo" meaning" much talking and speaking fooloshly.

My hebrew-greek study bible has a pretty good definition of the word: Much useless speaking without distinct expression of the purpose.

[SeraphimSarov]

As Orthodox Christians, do you use your own words too, or only written prayers? Or simply both? ;)

I think that varies from person to person. I use mostly written prayers and Psalms simply because they're better than anything I'm capable of coming up with. Occasionally if I've done something especially terrible, I'll stand before my icons and confess to God exactly what I did (since I'm a catechumen and cannot receive absolution from a priest yet). There are other times as well, but most of my "ad-libbed" prayers will take the form of other prayers I've read. I find it's far more effective that way than trying to come up with my own words.

All Orthodox Christians, though, pretty much begin their prayers the same way, invoking the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That's pretty much essential. ;)

[MoNiCa4316]

I think that varies from person to person. I use mostly written prayers and Psalms simply because they're better than anything I'm capable of coming up with. Occasionally if I've done something especially terrible, I'll stand before my icons and confess to God exactly what I did (since I'm a catechumen and cannot receive absolution from a priest yet). There are other times as well, but most of my "ad-libbed" prayers will take the form of other prayers I've read. I find it's far more effective that way than trying to come up with my own words.

All Orthodox Christians, though, pretty much begin their prayers the same way, invoking the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That's pretty much essential. ;)

Oki, thanks for your reply :)

What happens if you want to pray for someone? Are there prayers you can use for that or do you use your own words in that case?

[SeraphimSarov]

Oki, thanks for your reply :)

What happens if you want to pray for someone? Are there prayers you can use for that or do you use your own words in that case?

There are prayers for everything you can think of. The Church has been praying for 2000 years. :)

However, if you were to use your own words, you would still pray for the Lord's mercy on that person and for His will to be done in them. That's the most powerful intercession we can offer for anyone.

[MoNiCa4316]

oki :) makes sense.

[repentant]

This is a good one, I must admit. The Greek word used here is βατταλογήσητε which translates to stutter or more precisley stammer. Stuttering ot stammering? is an involuntary action. So Jesus here is basically telling them not to pray with involuntary stuttering..in other words..don't pray in toungues..:) tell your Protestant friends that..

[MoNiCa4316]

This is a good one, I must admit. The Greek word used here is βατταλογήσητε which translates to stutter or more precisley stammer. Stuttering ot stammering? is an involuntary action. So Jesus here is basically telling them not to pray with involuntary stuttering..in other words..don't pray in toungues..:) tell your Protestant friends that..

lol I don't think that's what He meant ^_^ it doesn't say 'involuntary' and tongues isn't at all like 'stuttering' ;)

[InTheCloud]

I got into my Catholic Bibles (waiting of the OSB in February) and yes, the chapter should read in his entire context.
Jesus was teaching the Apostles how to pray.
He told them that do not make a spectacle of themselves praying just to get peoples attention. He told not to use Palabrería ( many empty words, stutter or ramblings) and they He told them you should pray like this, and He taught them the Lords Prayer, a prayer that is standarized, short and every sentence is full of meaning.

[InTheCloud]

The actual greek word in Matt 6.7 is "batologeo" meaning" much talking and speaking fooloshly.

My hebrew-greek study bible has a pretty good definition of the word: Much useless speaking without distinct expression of the purpose.

Curious, PALABRERÍA means exactly the same in Spanish as BATOLOGEO in Greek, that is the word used in Spanish language Catholic Bibles. Since Spanish comes from Latin and Latin is closer that English to Greek there are many words that have similar uses.
Many evangelical protestant Spanish language Bibles copy the false "vain repetitions" translation when there is a exact word for the Greek in Spanish. Trying to teach false doctrines with misleading translations? I thought there are words in the Bible for that behavior. What about bearing false witness?

[repentant]

lol I don't think that's what He meant ^_^ it doesn't say 'involuntary' and tongues isn't at all like 'stuttering' ;)

No the Greek word I pointed means stammer or stutter, which is an involuntary action. People don't stutter on purpose do they? The English doesn't say "involuntary" and neither does the Greek..but the word βατταλογήσητε refers to involuntary stammering or stuttering action.

Stammer-(which is what the Greek word means)
intransitive verb
: to make involuntary stops and repetitions in speaking
transitive verb
: to utter with involuntary stops or repetitions

By speaking in tongues, I was reffering to the involuntary part of it, not necessarily the stuttering. Although I must admit that from what I have seen and heard from what is supposed to be "speaking in tongues" it did sound alot like stuttering..

Another word it can traslate to is "prattle' which is meaningless babble...much like speaking in tongues..

[repentant]

The actual greek word in Matt 6.7 is "batologeo" meaning" much talking and speaking fooloshly.

My hebrew-greek study bible has a pretty good definition of the word: Much useless speaking without distinct expression of the purpose.

"battalogo"- is the first person. In other words "I" or "me"

"battalogisite"- is the plural and singular formal. In this case the plural. In other words he is talking of more than one person..

[Prawnik]

[/quote=resoto]Jesus was teaching the Apostles how to pray.[/quote]

Good point. Remember, Jesus taught us the Lord's Prayer in response to the specific question "how should we pray?"

Jesus did not say: "let the Spirit move you and find the words for you but here is a good suggestion to start with." Nor did He say "let your prayers be different each time or at least according to the situation." Obviously, He could have done so, had He desired to.

In fact, the specific wording of the Lord's Prayer must be important, or the Evangelists would not have recorded it as such.

[ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs]

I remember when my cousin was early in his inquiry, he related to me how he was still attending the Baptist church and was called upon to pray. He recited one of the prayers from the little red prayer book from memory and after the service received several compliments on the prayer.

[Xpycoctomos]

I'm reading the Way of the Pilgrim and the Jesus Prayer takes a very important part of that Book.

The fundangelical (fundamentalist/evangelicals) protestants usually shun repetitive prayers. The Jesus prayer is a repetivitive prayer.

Since the Orthodox Church had read the Bible in Greek from the beginning, and the Gospels were in Greek, and the Greeks Christians promoved the Jesus Prayer and wrote most parts of the PHILOKALIA, I'm sure there must by a mistake somewere from the protestants.
I would like to know the Orthodox reading of Matthew.
Thanks.
The mistake is that they should be agaisnt "vain" repetitions which the Bible speaks against but many have thrown the baby out with the bathwater and ignored the word "vain". It's interesting, because most of them repeat the Lord's prayer ever day or at least every week.

The other problem is that Protestants are too hung up on being not-Catholic. Repeating prayers sounds to "rosary-ish" so, it was thrown out directly because of this protestant mentality.

Xpy

[repentant]

You also need to look at the context of why Jesus said that. Directly before He was talking about God knowing what people need, and not to worry. So obviously the repititous, vain prayers also refer to praying for material things that God knows we need, over and over..

[InTheCloud]

Have you noticed that the Anglican subforum Chapel as running Jesus prayer tread? And every one is colaborating?

[Dewi Sant]

We discussed this in Catechism class. I think even vain repetitions would be not right, as that would be praying many meaningless words without a thought behind them, but only to impress bystanders. That's another take on this.

That was my understanding of it.

A thousand thousand heartless repetitions of the Jesus Prayer is worth nothing when shown the light of just one recitation of the Jesus Prayer with a heartfelt spirit.

There is a very real reason why the Spiritual Father in the book tells the pilgrim to pray with his breathing and heart beat. It brings the whole body into prayer.

Vain Repetitions is exactly that.
It is not a statement on the repetition itself "the repetition is vain" but rather a statement on the vanity of what is repeated.
In contrast, prayerful repetitions free from vanity are spiritually fulfilling.

[SeraphimSarov]

A thousand thousand heartless repetitions of the Jesus Prayer is worth nothing when shown the light of just one recitation of the Jesus Prayer with a heartfelt spirit.

There is a very real reason why the Spiritual Father in the book tells the pilgrim to pray with his breathing and heart beat. It brings the whole body into prayer.

I believe that's why we are instructed not to attempt to acquire unceasing prayer of the heart without the guidance of a spiritual father. It's too easy to fall into delusion without a guide.

[HisKid1973]

A thousand thousand heartless repetitions of the Jesus Prayer is worth nothing when shown the light of just one recitation of the Jesus Prayer with a heartfelt spirit.

Amen.. The key is Christ Jesus sees the intent of the heart..shalom..kim

[Xpycoctomos]

A thousand thousand heartless repetitions of the Jesus Prayer is worth nothing when shown the light of just one recitation of the Jesus Prayer with a heartfelt spirit.

Amen.. The key is Christ Jesus sees the intent of the heart..shalom..kim

So true. Peace to you, friend.

[MoNiCa4316]

A thousand thousand heartless repetitions of the Jesus Prayer is worth nothing when shown the light of just one recitation of the Jesus Prayer with a heartfelt spirit.

Amen.. The key is Christ Jesus sees the intent of the heart..shalom..kim


:amen:

[icxn]

That was my understanding of it.

A thousand thousand heartless repetitions of the Jesus Prayer is worth nothing when shown the light of just one recitation of the Jesus Prayer with a heartfelt spirit...
And oftentimes it takes a thousand thousands heartless repetitions of the Jesus Prayer to generate one heartfelt recitation.

Quantity gives birth to quality. - Fr. Zacharia of Essex

:)

[Theophorus]

I'm reading the Way of the Pilgrim and the Jesus Prayer takes a very important part of that Book.

The fundangelical (fundamentalist/evangelicals) protestants usually shun repetitive prayers. The Jesus prayer is a repetivitive prayer.

Since the Orthodox Church had read the Bible in Greek from the beginning, and the Gospels were in Greek, and the Greeks Christians promoved the Jesus Prayer and wrote most parts of the PHILOKALIA, I'm sure there must by a mistake somewere from the protestants.
I would like to know the Orthodox reading of Matthew.
Thanks.

" 'Babbling' means praying foolishly, as when someone asks for such wordly things as fame, wealth, or victory. 'Babbling' is also inarticulate, childish speech. Therefore O reader, must not pray foolishly, 'For they think that they shall be heard for their many words.' It is not necessary to make long prayers, but rather short and frequent prayers, uttering fews words, but preserving in prayer"
Blessed Theophylact


"But touching prayer, He adds somewhat over and above; “not to use vain repetitions.” And as there He derides the hypocrites, so here the heathen; shaming the hearer everywhere most of all by the vileness of the persons. For since this, in most cases, is especially biting and stinging, I mean our appearing to be likened to outcast persons; by this topic He dissuades them; calling frivolousness, here, by the name of “vain repetition:” as when we ask of God things unsuitable, kingdoms, and glory, and to get the better of enemies, and abundance of wealth, and in general what does not at all concern us. “For He knoweth,” saith He, “what things ye have need of.”841 (javascript:toggle('fnf_iii.XIX-p69.1');)841 Matt. vi. 8 (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/bible/asv.Matt.6.html#Matt.6.8).
And herewith He seems to me to command in this place, that neither should we make our prayers long; long, I mean, not in time, but in the number and length of the things mentioned. For perseverance indeed in the same requests is our duty: His word being, “continuing instant in prayer.”842 (javascript:toggle('fnf_iii.XIX-p71.1');)842 Rom. xii. 12 (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/bible/asv.Rom.12.html#Rom.12.12).
And He Himself too, by that example of the widow, who prevailed with the pitiless and cruel ruler, by the continuance of her intercession;843 (javascript:toggle('fnf_iii.XIX-p73.1');)843 Luke xviii. 1 (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/bible/asv.Luke.18.html#Luke.18.1).and by that of the friend, who came late at night time, and roused the sleeper from his bed,844 (javascript:toggle('fnf_iii.XIX-p74.2');)844 Luke xi. 5 (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/bible/asv.Luke.11.html#Luke.11.5).not for his friendship’s, but for his importunity’s sake; what did He, but lay down a law, that all should continually make supplication unto Him?"

St John Chrysostom

[Dewi Sant]

And oftentimes it takes a thousand thousands heartless repetitions of the Jesus Prayer to generate one heartfelt recitation.

Quantity gives birth to quality. - Fr. Zacharia of Essex

:)

Very true also.


BTW, is that Essex, England....as in, the monastery in Essex?

[orthros]

PEACE.....RAMBLING ON ABOUT UNIMPORTANT THINGS IS WHAT WE ARE BEING CAUTIONED ABOUT.....WE ARE TO PRAY ABOUT THINGS THAT ARE OF CONCERN TO "GOD" AND NOT OURSELVES (WORLDLY).....PRAYER TO BE EFFECTIVE, IS OF PURE INTENTION FROM THE HEART WHETHER MANY OR FEW WORDS.....

GOD BLESS AND PRAYERS FOR YOU!
"orthros":crosseo: